I got up early this morning to do some cast testing before the wind came up. The air was very still, but there was also a thick ground fog--so thick that I could only see about75 yards, even though my arrows would be landing over 200 yards away.

When I nocked each arrow and elevated the bow, there were no reference points at all; just a gray void to shoot into. But, I've done a lot of this cast testing over the past five years, and I had a hunch that my form would be pretty consistent. This would be a good chance to test that theory--how close would my arrows group when I was shooting solely from muscle memory?

The black and white arrows in this group are some brand-new 2217's with 5-inch fletching. I was amazed to see what a small group they made, at an average distance of 204 yards. I wasn't really even pausing between shots; this was classic grip it and rip it stuff.

This is not to say that I'm a good shooter; the point is just that our muscle memory is a more accurate tool than we might realize.

Here's a closer look at arrows #4 and #5; their fletches are touching--almost a robin hood at 204 yards. Arrows #6 and #7 were only about 6 inches apart. The short arrow was 200 yards, and the long one was 207 yards. Six of these were shot from a 51# Tice & Watts, and six from the new Scherrinsky Phoenix that's 52.5# at my draw.

The fog lifted about half an hour after this...and then of course the wind came up, which put an end to my cast testing for the day. By the way, you might be able to see some other arrows in the photo above--those are also 2271's but with 4" fletches instead of 5"...and with those shorter feathers they fly at least 10 yards farther.

Meant to say "those are also 2217's".

I have trouble keeping my groups that short at 1/3 the distance!

But yes, that’s what Natural Point of Aim is for; when you can hit that solid alignment on a target at good hunting range and not fight your form...,

Fun shooting crookedstix, my muscle memory has old timers twitch.

Good stuff right there! Archery for the pure joy of it. Jawge

I’m with George.That is just some sheer fun, kinda like the stuff we use to do as teens.

Well now you left the door ajar and the naysayers will be here soon...telling you there is no such thing as muscle memory. ;) Give it a few minutes yet. I usually find that to be the case as well, even at 200 yards, more or less. Enjoy.

Nice shooting there Crook, and yes there has to be muscle memory

otherwise it would be miserable having to learn again how to tie my

shoes every morning.

OK I'll be the clown and call out the elephant in the room. So visibility is 75 yards, and you are launching arrows 200 yards. Is that safe? Someone caught hell here for blindly launching an arrow on the last day of the hunt,as a tradition to close the hunt. Others caught hell for blindly launching an arrow on New Years Eve at midnight.

Of course there are the naysayers that will come along and say muscle has no capacity to retain information and there's no change in the muscle cell nucleus pre and post execise. They might also say that it's a coordinated motor skill that doesn't require the muscles to actually remembering anything. The naysayers might say something really stupid like all memories are stored in the brain.

But when you build out that neuromotor circuit, it becomes part of your anatomy… Permanently.

Just because the name is a bit misleading doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen or that it doesn’t exist.

Of course, NOW we get to argue over what we really ought to call it ;)

And BTW.... I was sending them right down the middle today, mostly. First shots since maybe September, so I kept it to 4 “ends” of 7-8 arrows (yes, I know an End is only 6!)...

I was having some issues with the elevation at 60 yards on my last bunch, but I did hold them into about the width of the paper behind the 65 cm target... and a couple of them were actually dead down the middle...

Call it what you want… I was just happy that I could do it!

Fascinating how close the groups were! Very cool!

No convert here! I’ve always been a believer! Good shooting .

I’ve never flight shot but sure read about it as a kid and me & my friend would let ‘em rip at a city range that had 300 yards easy when I was very young, just to watch the arrows fly, and yes, it was safe. When my grandson started shooting with me he might get bored with aiming at stumps, pine cones or even little red squirrels but he was always ready for the “watch your arrow and call it” challenge in a 400+ yard field. I always enjoy these flight shooting posts.

Phil, you're right about that memory stuff. O guess what I'm saying is that our cerebellae are pretty good at retaining the whole sequence necessary to get the job done.

Oh yeah...Craig is right; those were 2117’s of course. And as for that phrase “ muscle memory,” I still find it useful. Memories reside in the brain, but the muscles do get trained to flex and perform in certain patterns, and repetitive practice serves to engrave those patterns in our bodies as well as our brains. Can’t shoot the arrow unless they both know the drilll...so until someone offers a better phrase I’ll stick with it.

BTW I was shooting in a 30-acre field, away from any houses, at 6 AM. Peco is right that I didn’t know where my arrows would land, but I thought the odds were infinitesimally small that any turkey or deer might be harmed accidentally

If you ever draw quick, release and connect on a hare hopping through a hole in the brush you'll know muscle memory exists! Done without thinking...

That's why Walt Wilhelm could shoot very accurately from the hip...he didn't "aim". Just drew back and thought " Right about there feels good."

And frankly Scarlet. Anyway, in a world of made up terms, catch phrases, and just 'wrong' use of the language, terms and words, we still survive and prosper. My folks came from West Virginia, so our language ain't always proper...so there ya'll.

Not everyone that does something very well can eloquently explain how they did it. In some cases they may not even know how they did it, but the proof is in the doing.

Is muscle memory the same as drawing to a consistant anchor each time?

If there is no such thing as muscle memory why do I still reach for my cigarettes in the pocket of my t-shirt when a defensive maneuver is required to avoid a crash driving down the road.

I quit smoking in 1990 and quit wearing pocket t's in 1992 when I wore out the ones I owned. Once it gets ingrained in THERE it is always THERE, whatever IT is and THERE is is up to somebody else to put a name on. I just know IT is THERE.

When you spin a race car at 100 mph and catch it and keep going down the straight away the task at hand gets completed and TIME FOR thinking is not available yet the execution is completed and hitting the wall is avoided.

Shooting running rabbits with a single action pistol drawn from the hip, shooting triple's out of a busted covey of quail and blocking a punch and responding appropriately are a few things that come to mind as IT.

I have proven IT exist to myself many times with rifles, pistols, bows, motorcycles and stock cars among other things.

When my wife asks whats for dinner every day I tell her, I cooked it you can name it, I just know its dinner.

Same applies to Muscle Memory, I got, you can name it. Good Day

is muscle memory instinctive?

"A rose by any other name...."

Do you think the muscles in the fingers have muscle memory?

Trick question, Phil. The fingers have no muscles.

There is such a thing as muscle memory. The memory is stored in the brain though. ;)

Was that directed to me, Phil?

Is so....

If there were muscles in the fingers they may very well respond to certain sensations that would travel through nuro pathways and cause particular responses.

Isn't that actually what folks really mean when they refer to "muscle memory?" Nothing more/less than response to stimuli.

All they really mean is remembering how to do something despite not practicing recently.

Is it really surprising that we can do that?

If you learn how to swim as a kid and don't swim for 20 years you'r not likely to drown if you fall out of your canoe.

One reason that I posted this is because people often ask how I know I'm at the right angle of elevation when I release the arrow. I know that when my back, ribs, and hips all have a certain feel to them, I'm at the right angle and it's time to loose the arrow. Usually I have a visual gap between the arrow tip and the horizon that helps me get the right altitude, and I also have a particular treetop on that horizon for my bearing...but on this particular foggy day, I didn't have either of those guides. Yet, my body seemed to know how to do it "by feel"--that's all.

Babysaph--yes, a consistent anchor is part of it, but altitude and bearing are separate tasks from anchoring.

And as for quirks of language, we talk about some plastics and mattress foam as having "memory"..so muscles can too.

“...got muscles in his head that have never been used...” RIP John Prine.

I had muscles once upon a time and I have memory or them. By the same token if my muscles put something somewhere other than where it goes. My memory does not remember where that was. Islander

crookedstix...

Kerry ... one of the benefits I've found of shooting long distances is you develop a very silky smooth ... dare I say almost lazy, release with almost no follow through .... is that an experience you can realate to ????

When we were hunting elk in Colorado crookedstix, Knifeguy and I arrived together at a large alpine bog that formed the headwaters of a creek.

We were on one side of the bog and there was a rise of land on the far side of the opening that was around 200 yards away. Kerry eyed it up, pulled an arrow from his side quiver and asked Lance and I where we figured that arrow would land if he shot it across the flat onto the rise of land.

We provided our estimations and then Kerry, having nocked the arrow, leaned back and drew to anchor, paused...adjusted...and then executed a perfect release!

That was the first and only time I saw Kerry shoot an arrow in this fashion. What still sticks in my mind is how careful he was to come to full draw and anchor, adjust his body angle and then execute a perfect release pulling steadily, (but not over drawing) through the shot.

I am not at all surprised he achieved the results he did above in what amounts to a blind test...no favouring a bow or bow and arrow combination...all objective and attentive to detail.

And, by the way, that arrow went WAYYY further than Lance and I thought it would!!

I would like to hear a doctor explain muscle memory. Until I do, I won't believe it is anything but the brain remembering and relaying information to muscles. Some are prone to believe that not true because they don't realize the brain has worked it out so many times in the past that conscious thought is at a minimum regarding what their muscles are doing.

I think it akin to a policeman's sixth sense. After facing situations daily for several years, he senses all is not right on particular occasions but cannot articulate why. He has unconsciously received a combination of factors, not just one item. In the right combination, a myriad of small bits come together (crap he has experienced hundreds of times), and he just knows.

All from memory in his brain. Like anchor point, grip, wind, elevation, etc. That tells his muscles what to do ... again.

Phil, my thumb knuckle is already tickling my ear lobe when I'm at anchor...I think if I had any follow-through I'd be hitting myself on the other side of my head, LOL.

To me one of the greatest benefits of this long-range cast testing is that there's no target stress in the equation--that is, there's never that yucky feeling when the arrow doesn't get the score you wanted it to. All you think about is draw, anchor, align, and release; and you quickly learn to do it the same way every time...because there are dozens of arrows still waiting to be shot.

My winter and spring shooting is mostly spent testing cast of various bow-arrow-string combinations, so by midsummer (when I start dialing in my aim for Colorado), I already have thousands of stress-free shots under my belt. My mind is relaxed and trained to think that drawing and loosing the arrow is a fun process, and that the results are nothing to worry about. My muscles are trained to come to a consistent full draw, and as Peter alluded to, I do take care not to "cheat" and overdraw...because that would result in unreliable data.

As Jawge said above, shooting arrows for the pure fun of it is good stuff...and maybe it's why I've never had any encounters with target panic.

Muscle memory works for lots of things. weather it's bow shooting or something else.We paddle kayaks long distance and the same kind of memory works for that. I shoot a hickory long bow for hunting and fun. I don't have to think about what I'm doing I just shoot and all is well.

That's some fine shooting Kerry, along with a bunch of fun!

Phil could really explain this to us,but we would not understand anyway.

My muscles always remember the day after I dig a bunch of post holes. :)

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