Just bought some Zwickey Cliffs which are barbed Broadheads. Just wondering everyone's thoughts on using the barbed heads in general. They were illegal in Illinois until about 10 years ago. Some states still do not allow for these types of heads.

They've been illegal in Idaho for the nearly six decades I've been hunting. The reasoning back then was sportsmen and women wanted sharp broad heads that would more readily come back out of a shot and not stay inside. That would help with healing of wounds on animals if they were not recovered. Idaho also mandates broadheads have less than a 90 degree angle on the rear of the broadhead to allow easier exiting from big game. I believe most Idaho hunters still go along with all of the above for humane reasons.

Since that part of the Broadhead does nothing to aid penetration I don't think it matters one way or another.

Don't know if they still are or not but they used to be illegal in Kansas. And I agree with Frank's assessment.

They meet certain standards and I'm certain they will do the job as long as I do my part. I suppose I'm concerning myself with the dilemma "well they are legal but are they ethical". A good to marginal hit with the arrow still in it would be advantageous, while a marginal to bad hit with arrow stuck in it would be agony. A fine line there in my eyes and not sure I'm willing to walk it when I have other options.

If barbed broadheads are illegal, that would mean every open on contact head made are illegal in those states that don't allow barbed heads.

Bob

This is an example of a solution looking for a problem to be applied to.

There us absolutely no tangible evidence that barbed heads are more, or less ethical, or more or less likely to come out of a wound then any other design.

Some of the old timers even wrote that barbed heads were more ethical because, due to the barbs, the arrow is more likely to catch on brush and pull free on a complete penetration shot than a he's that has a solid trailing edge.

Bob, open on contact are illegal in Idaho, at least as a couple of years ago. And as an aside, the F&G commission just yesterday voted to not allow lighted nocks for archery hunts.

I guess ethics is and always will be in the eyes of the beholder.

I think the odds of any broadhead working it’s way back out are pretty slim. Look at how many heads were found in animals.

Thanks FDP. I always hear more negative things about barbed heads so the counterargument is a new perspective for me. I think most people overlook the expandable heads as being barbed, apparently because it boggles the mind it can be both expandable and barbed at the same time.

Illegal in Jersey

Broadheads must be unbarbed and at least 7/8? wide. Broadheads with moveable blades that fold/collapse when withdrawn are not considered barbed.

This comes out of the Oregon Dept of Fish & Wildlife’s restrictions for weapons for bow hunting. So a fixed barbed head is not legal.

Okay in Pennsylvania, since they almost had to include them with the snagomatic heads that seem to be everywhere nowadays. That said, I never saw a need for them other then to resurrect an original design by Cliff Zwickey. I've seen worse.

I guess the thinking is that a barbed head will worm its way all the way through… Eventually.

I guess the idea of sharpened trailing edges is that it would allow the blade to cut its way out when being withdrawn. I think a single bevel would be interesting in that respect because it would spiral its way back out, possibly even creating a whole new wound channel. I just don’t much care for those sharpened trailing edges because the one year that I hunted with them I managed to cut myself pretty good. In the middle of the pad of my index finger on my draw hand. On about the second day of the trip.

Can you imagine if I had been on a big dollar/many preference points required kind of a hunt that year??? For a lot of guys, that could easily be a $10,000, Once in a lifetime boo-boo.

So yeah, No.

A deer will pull the arrow out if it can it's mouth on arrow shaft. So if there is not complete penetration the barbed head will not pull out. I think that is the reason the barbed head was illegal. The same reason I would not use Zwickey Cliffs. I like all the other Zwickeys though

Illegal in NY so I've never had the chance to experiment. Can't see why it would make any difference at all. I suppose on a weak or deflected hit that barely penetrated.

But I've had non-barbed heads that snapped off with only 2" of shaft behind the neck and they still killed the deer. The premise the deer can "pull it out" is that the shaft breaks with exposed length outside the deer rather than at skin level.

Bob, open on contact heads are only illegal if they lock into their deployed position to create a barbed head. Most open on contacts will not lock open but will collapse once the forward movement of the arrow ceases. And as to the first question the Zwickeys in question are illegal in Alaska.

I've been using the Cliff Zwickey's the last few years. I've killed at least 4 deer with them. I dont worry about the barbs. Every one has came out the opposite side. They have performed great for me. I get them shaving sharp.

I don’t use them simply because I shoot broadheads for practice regularly; tough to pull from my targets.

Along the line of what fdp said Hill wrote that he never saw a broadhead come out the way it went in.But he often saw barbed heads pulled out when they snagged on brush.Considering the huge number of game he took it makes sense to use them if legal.

This is one time I disagree with Hill. I think the broadheads Hill used were barbed or square shaped on the back end. The likelihood of them coming out the way they went in was minimal. Anybody know what was Fred Bear's opinion?

Who really cares what Fred Bear's opinion was, or anyone else's for that matter.

Use whatever head you want to for whatever reason you choose.

Damm I feel stupid. I never knew these were illegal. So the hill heads are illegal in some states? I’ve never used this type but thought they looked great. I’ve been bow hunting since 1974 and you all are giving be a education. Correct me if I’m reading this wrong. Tks

The early versions of the Howard Hill head were barbed.Later versions are not.

Interesting topic. I thought maybe those were illegal in my state as well so I went back and checked and they are not. Just need to be 7/8" wide with metal or ceramic cutting edges.

There is absolutely no advantage to a barbed versus unbarbed broadhead. So why not error on the side of the animal and give it a better chance for survival.

Hoyt use to make a barbed Broadhead called CHUCK-it!

They were illegal in KS for decades, now they are not. I believe it happened about the time mechanicals became popular.

grouchy62:

I thought the idea of bowhunting was to "Kill the animal" not give them a chance to survive!!!

Bob

An advantage is less surface to wind plane. Also if the broadhead goes though the animal, it is likely to catch on brush and pull the arrow out for a better blood trail.

Law changed in Ohio a couple years ago...Legal now,

Barbed broadheads are not legal in Minnesota.

I was referring to a hit that did not kill quickly. None of us want a lingering death for an animal,

And I thought I thought the idea of bowhunting was to recover and not just "Kill the animal"

Just as this was initially a solution looking for a problem it has now become an argument looking for a topic.

To this point not there still has not been any evidence provided that one design is or isn't more or less humane than the other. Nor has there been any evidence that one design is or is not more likely to be removed from the animal than the other.

Hmmmm....

Based on painful, first-hand experience with barbed fish- hooks, I think it’s a safe bet that a barbed head would be more difficult to back out of an entry wound; question is whether that is a good thing or not. I’m pretty sure that the original thought was to keep it in there doing damage, but I’m not sure that it makes a difference. A bad hit is a bad hit is a bad hit.

If you get an exit, I suppose the barb COULD help pull the shaft clear if the nock end of your arrow were already in past the rib cage. Otherwise I’m pretty sure it would just break your arrow that much more easily.... the pull would be straight back, so.... Snap!

If you accidentally stab yourself with your arrow (hey it happens) you better hope your broadhead isnt barbed.

Howard Hill always shot barbed heads and thought they were more humane. There are good arguments for and against and I guess it just depends on the situation.

Illegal in ND . I've found a lot of arrows on the blood trails that didn't go all the way through . I wouldn't use a barbed head .

Peej, if you accidentally stab yourself with a broadhead in a vital part of your body deep enough that whether the head is barbed or not is a consideration and you remove it without someone there with medcial training/experience you are likely to bleed to death either way.

I sharpen the back of mine. Killed a hog with one. Only animal I’ve shot with one. Legal in WV.

I guess you’re not a “touch your knuckle with the back of your Broadhead“ kind of guy… That would suck.

"I guess you’re not a “touch your knuckle with the back of your Broadhead“ kind of guy" Nope. Never have figured out exactly how you could consistently do that unless you are shooting off a flat shelf, without deforming your bow hand. At least I can't. I can do it with a selfbow.

If you touch your knuckle with the back of a broadhead with enough force to cut yourself you have likely pulled the arrow off the string or at the very least moved it out of the "seated" notch of a snap on nock.

Ohio changed their law because no one was making barbed heads and it made it simpler to allow expandibles without writing up new laws.

Think so? I was just thinking that if you had a good, sharp edge back there and you overshot your DL, you’d be kind of wedging your finger into a slot that gets narrower the farther you go in. An unusually dynamic release might turn unpleasant because the head couldn’t just ride up and over...

But I guess that could be avoided just by mounting your heads horizontal instead of vertical...

I suppose I’ve cut myself enough times and in enough different ways that I’m usually trying to avoid the next one… LOL

I do mount my heads horizontal and have for years because an old guy that has set lots, and lots of broadhead flight records proved to me why I should.

Trade secret?

Does make some sense that a vertical blade orientation could be more likely to plane off a bit before the arrow starts spinning and that that could scrub some speed. Maybe not the kind of thing to worry about for most, but in flight shooting, every little thing has got to add up...

I consider the animal. If I were it, if want a super sharp non-barbed 2 blade that I would not feel feel. I once shot a for with that kind of head, pass thru, and it continued to graze until she fell over. That's the kind of shot we want.

Not legal in MD.

Whether a broadhead does or does not have a barbed trailing edge has exactly -0- to do with it's predisposition to be made razor sharp thereby allowing it pass completely through an animal affording it the opportunity to continue to feed until it dies of suffocation.

Why use them when there are so many other good "non barb" heads out there ?

Why not use them? All of the arguments against them appear to be based on the fact that barbed heads MIGHT in certain situations be less humane. Even though there still has been absolutely no evidence provided to support that notion.

If one is that concerned about killing humanely you should give up bow hunting all together because there is nothing even remotely humane about death from blood and oxygen loss no matter how you want to try and paint it.

FDP, that's more or less the conclusion I'm drawing from all this. Chances are with my setup I'm getting a complete passthrough anyways. I suppose at the start of this there's just a bit of hesitation with the legal history of the design in general.

“there is nothing even remotely humane about death from blood and oxygen loss no matter how you want to try and paint it.”

I guess it depends how long that takes. You get an animal that doesn’t even know it’s been hit, and when its blood pressure drops below the minimum it’s going to pass out. And Fainting doesn’t seem all that awful in the grand scheme of things. Kind of like if you’ve ever started to gray out when you suddenly stand up after sitting in a chair for a while, only things go black instead of gray. But of course, that’s the best case scenario.

Personally, I’m to the point where I don’t think you can say anything at all one way or the other unless you’re talking about an animal that remains conscious long enough for it to make an attempt to pull the arrow out.... in which case we already know that something has gone pear-shaped.

Then, if it’s a gut shot, the animal is going to die of infection if it doesn’t bleed out first - arrow or no arrow. If a barbed head hastens that at all, then arguably that’s more of a mercy. And I’m not sure where else you could hit a deer or an elk where there would be enough resistance to stop an arrow but not too much resistance for the animal to be able to pull it out. It’s not as if no one has ever recovered a non-barbed broadhead encased in scar tissue; those never came out, either.

Long and short, I guess… I can’t for see myself choosing to use them for anything other than fishing arrows, but I’m not sure it’s possible to make a case against them that is strong enough that it deserves to become part of our laws...Nor do I see any reason to push for their legalization. Maybe just one of those things we should let go of?

I can not understand why anyone would use a barbed broadhead... Big Nine, Skeets & others who find fault with those broadheads are 100% correct.

If your going to worry about barbed broadheads being in-humane then you should worry about all broadheads not being sharp. however if you feel barbed heads are not good, then don't use them. The law-makers that write these stupid ordnances have probably never shot a bow let alone hunted or shot a deer with a arrow, its another one of those touchy/feely things, it sounds good so it must be!!

Bob

I would love to see video of a deer returning to feeding after being shot or a deer pulling the arrow out.

The now-retired butcher who used to do cut and wrap my deer had a box of broadheads he had removed from deer. Enough so that even for gun-shot deer he checked them over first with a metal detector. Not just for his own skin but he didn't want to ruin a meat band-saw blade. Some had been in for a long time based on how they were encased in tissue.

Wasps and Savoras were notorious and he had several where the blades had dissolved/been absorbed but the aluminum core was still relatively whole.

He was a bow hunter himself and used Snuffers. He really despised any head with a pivoting or removable blade.

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