Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Hypothetical question

Messages posted to thread:
Boker 08-Apr-20
RJH2 08-Apr-20
Shawn 08-Apr-20
JusPassin 08-Apr-20
George D. Stout 08-Apr-20
fdp 08-Apr-20
GUTPILE PA 08-Apr-20
goldentrout_one 08-Apr-20
Redneck Engineer 08-Apr-20
2 bears 08-Apr-20
Bowmania 08-Apr-20
Buglmin 08-Apr-20
Jim 08-Apr-20
GLF 08-Apr-20
Todd the archer 08-Apr-20
fdp 08-Apr-20
RJH1 08-Apr-20
GF 08-Apr-20
2 bears 08-Apr-20
RJH1 08-Apr-20
Boker 08-Apr-20
fdp 08-Apr-20
RJH1 08-Apr-20
fdp 08-Apr-20
RJH1 08-Apr-20
GLF 08-Apr-20
fdp 08-Apr-20
GLF 08-Apr-20
fdp 09-Apr-20
Todd the archer 09-Apr-20
Kwikdraw 09-Apr-20
RJH2 09-Apr-20
fdp 09-Apr-20
RJH2 09-Apr-20
Redneck Engineer 09-Apr-20
GF 09-Apr-20
GLF 09-Apr-20
RJH1 09-Apr-20
RJH1 09-Apr-20
GF 10-Apr-20
bluesman 10-Apr-20
bluesman 10-Apr-20
GF 10-Apr-20
RJH1 10-Apr-20
GF 10-Apr-20
Todd the archer 10-Apr-20
RJH1 10-Apr-20
GF 10-Apr-20
Todd the archer 10-Apr-20
fdp 10-Apr-20
RJH1 10-Apr-20
Sinner 10-Apr-20
GF 10-Apr-20
BooBoo 10-Apr-20
Todd the archer 10-Apr-20
fdp 10-Apr-20
RJH1 10-Apr-20
bluesman 10-Apr-20
bluesman 10-Apr-20
RJH1 10-Apr-20
fdp 10-Apr-20
RJH2 10-Apr-20
GF 10-Apr-20
fdp 11-Apr-20
RJH1 11-Apr-20
RJH1 11-Apr-20
GF 11-Apr-20
RJH2 11-Apr-20
GF 11-Apr-20
RJH1 11-Apr-20
From: Boker
Date: 08-Apr-20




This is a question that I’m not sure has an answer but something I’ve always wondered about

I have a 30 inch draw, My friend has a 28 inch draw

We both shoot bear T/D’s among many others.

Both our Takedowns are b risers with #3 limbs.

Mine is a 40@28 / His is a 45@28

Obviously due to my draw length i am at 45lbs as well. (Confirmed on a bow scale)

Assuming we could both shoot the exact same arrow, String etc etc and we can even say shooting takes place in a bow machine to take out the human error factor.

1. Would both bows perform the same in fps , energy etc.?

2. would mine have an advantage due to the 2 inches of additional draw length? even though both are the same poundage@ our personal draw lengths. 3. Would the additional draw length be canceled out due to the fact of the poundage at 28”

40lb in my case and 45lb in his.

None of this matters a hill of beans and I’d love to shoot both through the Chronograph for some real numbers but isn’t possible due to Logistics.

However it’s just a hypothetical question I find Intriguing and thought I’d ask y’all’s opinion.

From: RJH2
Date: 08-Apr-20




Yours should be a bit faster. On a compound you would gain about 20 fps, i have done this and it is easily provable. I don't think that you will get 20 fps, but 5 or 10 wouldn't surprise me

From: Shawn
Date: 08-Apr-20




The longer power stroke is faster no rocket science to that. That is why a lot of us envy the long draw guys. They can shoot the same weight and get better performance. Shawn

From: JusPassin
Date: 08-Apr-20




Absolutely, power stroke makes a difference.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 08-Apr-20




And, there is always a mitigating factor or factors. To be perfectly identical, even your release would need to be the same...same tab or glove, same string, yada, yada, yada. I don't buy that the longer draw is always faster. One would assume that though if all other things were equal...that meaning all other things equal &^).

Quality of your release is a big factor also, as I have shown to folks many times during distance shooting. I can shoot right along with some guys with longer draws using bows of equal weight. Those darned gozintos.

From: fdp
Date: 08-Apr-20




Hypothetically the bow you shoot should be faster but that doesn't mean it will be.

Variations in release can have as much or more affect on performance as 2" of Drs length.

From: GUTPILE PA
Date: 08-Apr-20




I'm sure it does. My son in law has a 31" draw and he is at the same lb at my 28" and he always corno faster than me same weight arrow

From: goldentrout_one
Date: 08-Apr-20




Looking at Stu Miller's dynamic spine calculator, if you compare a 40lb bow drawn to 30" vs. a 45 bow drawn to 28", the 40 drawn to 30" shoots the arrow 0.1 fps faster than the 45lb bow drawn to 28". Personally, I bet the long-draw archer will be maybe 2 to 4 fps faster. All else being equal, of course.... I wish I had a shooting machine, then I could test this theory.

From: Redneck Engineer Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Apr-20




If an engineer did not have any measured data and only had the draw weight versus draw length curve to make a determination, then the longer 30 draw compared to 28 inches on the same bow would store about 7 percent more energy which would mean for a speed of 150 feet/sec from the 28 in draw, the speed for the 30 inch draw would be 160 feet/sec. The gozintos that George mentions could change this result.

From: 2 bears
Date: 08-Apr-20




Slight advantage to the longer power stroke. There could be more difference in the cast of two different bows,& brace height. No two different pieces of wood & glue lines are apt to have the exact same spring. Challenge your friend to a flight shoot. Won't prove anything you will hold the bows at slightly different angles but it will be fun. >>>>-----> Ken

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Apr-20




So you could shoot he same arrow, even though if one was tuned the other wouldn't be. Mute point. So you shoot them through a hooter shooter, machine, and you took the human factor out. They'd be on the stiff side through the machine. Again, mute point to answer your questions.

Really not learning to much here. If you're doing an experiment you can only change one variable at a time. You have a hundred possible out comes.

I will take your power stroke though.

Bowmania

From: Buglmin
Date: 08-Apr-20




I'm not so sure which would be faster. Yessir, longer draw length means youre working the limbs more, and that means you'll be a stiffer shaft then your buddy shooting 45# at 28". And a stiffer shaft means a higher gpi shaft. Higher gpi means a heavier arrow, which means a loss in speed.

From: Jim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Apr-20




I’m no engineer, but I’m going with “it don’t make a hill of beans” just go out and shoot. Have fun and stay safe.

From: GLF
Date: 08-Apr-20




Urs will be slightly fast for 2 reasons. 1 is longer power stroke and 2 is your limbs weight less. He has 45lb limbs and you have 40. On identicle bows your 40lb limbs will weigh less than his 45s even tho both are 45 at full draw.

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Apr-20




OK I have tested this using a chronograph I would expect about 10 ft./s faster with a longer stroke at the same poundage. In my actual experiment it was two bows nearly identical one was 49 pounds the other was 65 pounds both at 28 inches. When I over drew the lighter bow to 29 inches it weighed 52 pounds and short drew the 65 pound though by 1 inch it drew 62 pounds at that point they both shot the same arrow at the same speed.

From: fdp
Date: 08-Apr-20




Todd either something isn't right about those numbers, the 65lb. was a dog, or the 52lb. bow was extremely efficient.

From: RJH1
Date: 08-Apr-20




fdp,

in the compound world 10 pounds more or the two inches more equal the same fps, so if that holds true in the trad world todd's numbers would be right on. I haven't fully tested that in the trad world, but have more than once with compounds.

For compounds:

1 inch of draw length will give you 10fps 1 pound of draw weight will give you 2 fps 3 grains of arrow weight will cost you 1 fps

This fairly common knowledge with compounds, but since many trad shooters shun chronos and only go with "hits hard" or "really slings an arrow" we may never know.

From: GF
Date: 08-Apr-20




And just to throw a BIG OL' WRENCH into the conversation...

Larry Hatfield built a bow that set a world Flight record in the #50 class.

Then the same bow was used, short-drawn, to compete in the #35 class. If you figure 3 pounds/inch of draw length, that would be a FIVE INCH reduction in draw length.

And that bow set ANOTHER world record.

So if DL were such a big deal as everybody says... dontchaspose it'd be impossible to give up 5" of draw and still be AT ALL competitive, let alone World Champ?

Best I can figure it, that bow had limbs that were so light and so lively that they were getting up to their maximum rate of travel before they got back to brace height, even when given a lot less runway.

Maybe somebody else can explain it away, but that's the best I can come up with to explain That Which Cannot Possibly Happen, at least according to the accepted "wisdom" on the subject.

And do note that this was a flight bow, so maybe the arrow used was well below standard hunting GPP? Except I think it was broadhead division, where I would think that there would be a minimum GPP requirement.

From: 2 bears
Date: 08-Apr-20




The forgotten fact. Not the same draw weight- not the same draw length. Not the same distance shot even though both were records. Talk about comparing apples to oranges. ;^) I believe the original question was with both bows pulling the same 45 pounds. Just the power stroke was different. >>>>>------> Ken

From: RJH1
Date: 08-Apr-20




GF,

The easiest way to know for sure would be to grab a chrono and see, but trad so......

Maybe the wind was just right when Larry shot, or maybe he held a better angle, or, or etc. Basically a chrono and a machine or at least a release would make many of these questions moot.

Like today I got a new bow in the mail, and one of the first things i did was chrono it. With me loosing the string a 57@28 Hill Wesley special is about 4 fps slower than my 55@28 Howatt Hunter. See what kind of useful info a chrono will get you haha

From: Boker
Date: 08-Apr-20




Interesting answers, thanks for playing along.

In the real world my friend can shoot circles around me blindfolded so I still lose every time lol

Such are the joys of traditional archery!

From: fdp
Date: 08-Apr-20




Just for the record, I don't shun chronographs, carbon limbs or arrows, or metal risers.

That being said, I have yet to see a recurve consistently increase speed by 10fps. with a 1" increase in draw length.

Even based on the bumpers provided, if the increase of 1" in draw length increased the speed 10fps., and the heavier bow decreased speed 10fps. due to being underdrawn by 1" there is still a significant difference in draw weight.

So, if the bow of higher draw weight shot the same arrow the same speed as the bow of that much lesser draw weight either one was a dog, or one was extremely efficient.

52lbs. versus 62lbs.

From: RJH1
Date: 08-Apr-20




"So, if the bow of higher draw weight shot the same arrow the same speed as the bow of that much lesser draw weight either one was a dog, or one was extremely efficient.

52lbs. versus 62lbs"

Once again, I have not done this with recurves, but this is pretty much exactly what you would expect with a compound. If you want 10 more fps, you turn your bow up 5 pounds or add one inch of draw length

From: fdp
Date: 08-Apr-20




But this conversation is not about compounds. There are way too many variables involved. Drawing a recurve bow using the back of the bow to measure draw length you can easily have a variance of 1/2" or more in actual draw length. At the same time you have to take in to consideration the weight of the string, etc.. Then there is the question of whether or not the bows were the same length, do they have the same length working limbs (we know they do in the case of the Bears originally mentioned).

From: RJH1
Date: 08-Apr-20




I get that, but just going "too many variables to know, so we just make stuff up" when there are chronos and scales to find things out seems silly. Also to disregard what someone has actually tested (in the case of Todd) just cause the numbers are not what you want them to be also seems shortsighted.

Here is another one: with the same arrow of almost 700 grains a 55 pound howatt hunter is only 8 FPS slower than a 68 pound bear kodiak. Most people would say that 68 pounder "hits real hard, compared to the 55 pound bow," but the truth is something different. Point is, when someone has actually tested something, don't toss their findings out cause you don't like the sound of it, especially if you haven't tested it yourself.

fdp, this isn't a knock on you, so please don't take it personally, but I see this same thing take place with all sorts of stuff. Group A does a test and group B doesn't like the findings so they disregard the results, but never puts up any actual results of their own to support their opinions

From: GLF
Date: 08-Apr-20




Bowman said a if you tune the arrow to one bow and tune the other bow to the arrow both would be in tune.

From: fdp
Date: 08-Apr-20




The fact that someone disagrees with someone else's findings doesn't mean that they are tossing out someone else's findings. And it has nothing to do with whether I do or don't like the information. It has to do with the fact that I have never experienced that large a variance when comparing bows of like design.

The original question was related to 2 bows of the same design.

None of the examples provided thus far are comparing bows of the same design, or if they are, that point has not been made clear. If the bows aren't of the same design how are the comparisons even relevant in the context of the original question ?

And understand that I'm not personally knocking anybody.

From: GLF
Date: 08-Apr-20




GF that bow set world records in two weight classes but that doesn't mean it shot the same distance or even close. Just means the bow had enough pre stress to shoot well at different draw lengths.

From: fdp
Date: 09-Apr-20




The example that GF gave proves that st least in that case draw length was not the great equalizer, nor was it even a factor. The bow was drawn considerably shorter and still out performed all other bows being shot at linger draw lengths but pulled to the same draw weight.

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Apr-20




More info on my actual test. I didn’t say 10 FPS per inch but to the OP post 10 FPS over 2” draw difference. In my test, both bows were identical models, same core wood, same length, same color glass made by the same bowyer. They were shot on my home made shooting machine for consistent draw. One bow was 49 pounds @28” the other 65 pounds @28” a 16 pound difference. When both shot at 28” with the same arrow there was a 15 FPS difference which is typical in my experience of 1 FPS per pound. My conclusion after shooting the bows at different draw lengths to get equal speed I came up with 2” difference in draw and 10 pound difference in draw weight. The 52 @29” equal to 62@27”. Now if the 52 pound bow was increased to 62 pounds I would expect it to shoot another 10 FPS faster.

From: Kwikdraw
Date: 09-Apr-20




In short, as a rule, all things being equal, longer draw length equals more speed!

From: RJH2
Date: 09-Apr-20




Thanks for the update Todd, that is what I would have expected with a trad type setup, as noted in my first post on this thread. Glad you were able to test it and that it was out of a machine was even better. I like it when there are measured numbers out of a chrono. It is always interesting when people list distance shot as a consistent factor for a bow and then talk about variables when a bow is shot through a chrono, when distance shooting has tons of variables and a chrono cuts out many of them.

Thanks again for the test!

From: fdp
Date: 09-Apr-20




RJH2...what are you talking about ? A typical chronograph is one of the most unreliable measuring devices ever created. It is affected by light, shadow, and even the angle of approach of the projectile being measured. I appreciate Todd's update, and I respect his details, but I still don't agree with the results based on my experience.

And since the distance/flight shooting comment was brought up no matter how you slice it draw length made absolutely -0- difference in that instance. And that performance was witnessed by many people and recorded as a world record for the draw weight. It CAN'T be disputed.

From: RJH2
Date: 09-Apr-20




Because flight shooting distance couldn't be influenced by, feathers, wind, angle of trajectory......

And we don't know if draw length would have made a difference in the flight shooting because the same guy didn't shoot the same type bow with the same weight at 2 inches longer length, under the same conditions, so i will stick with a chrono for consistent results. Yall can stick with "really cast an arrow" i will trust the guy who did the actual test with a machine and a chrono

From: Redneck Engineer Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Apr-20




Gentlemen: Goldentrout_1 discovered that I made a mistake in my calculations. This message is to correct that mistake. I forgot to calculate the velocity taking into account that kinetic energy has the velocity squared--not linear. Therefore, the increase in speed isn't 7 percent, but instead 3.4 percent resulting in the 28 inch draw with a velocity of 150 ft/sec would become 155 ft/sec for the 30 inch draw. I'm very sorry for the mistake.

From: GF
Date: 09-Apr-20




This may be a little redundant after Redneck’s post but...

“ this is pretty much exactly what you would expect with a compound. If you want 10 more fps, you turn your bow up 5 pounds or add one inch of draw length”

It’d be more useful to express those findings as percentages. Given that modern compounds are shooting nearly twice as fast as our bows, you might expect the DL-related gains to be about twice as much...

So is it unreasonable to think that those #5 or that inch would yield about 5 FPS with a tradbow?

Not exact by any stretch, but a lot closer to being in the ballpark, eh?

From: GLF
Date: 09-Apr-20




Fdp they weren't identical bows so it just proves 1 bow design was alot faster than the others.

From: RJH1
Date: 09-Apr-20




GF, that is basically what I have found with trad bows. I you look in my first post on this thread i estimated 5-10 fps with a trad bow. I believe the higher gpp we generally shoot with trad bows is another factor in cutting the number of fps gained/lost as compaired t oa compound.

The biggest point to take from this is: All else equal, a longer draw length will have a velocity advantage. Remember ALL ELSE EQUAL

From: RJH1
Date: 09-Apr-20




GLF, if you read Todd's second post you will see that he clarified that they were in fact the same bow design, and shot with a machine. And the 2" longer draw yielded 10 fps advantage

From: GF
Date: 10-Apr-20




I hear you, Gary! I just don’t happen to like that very much ;)

From: bluesman
Date: 10-Apr-20




A force acting for a given amount of time will change an object's momentum. ... If the force acts opposite the object's motion, it slows the object down. If a force acts in the same direction as the object's motion, then the force speeds the object up. Either way, a force will change the velocity of an object.

This is a simple physics lesson .... the longer drawlength will send an arrow faster ... as said by many above .

From: bluesman
Date: 10-Apr-20




In a nutshell the longer a force is applied to an object . The greater the momentum .....every time .. if u pushed a ball on the ground with a 1 ft length push with 170 lbs force the ball will be slow down faster than the same ball pushed with 170 lbs force for 5 ft . It will maintain a high speed for longer therefore more KE Eric energy .

From: GF
Date: 10-Apr-20




So here’s the wrinkle...

A bowstring accelerates from 0 to top speed and back down to 0 by the time it has returned to brace height.

And the string will only accelerate the arrow up to the point at which the string hits its peak velocity; once the string starts to slow down, the arrow’s inertia will carry it clear of the string and send it on its merry way.

So the entire argument that a longer DL is always faster than a shorter DL is based on the assumption that the string continues to accelerate all the way back to brace height, at which point it comes crashing to an instantaneous halt.

BUT....

Somebody - and I can’t recall exactly who it was but for some reason I think it might’ve been Larry - but SOMEBODY took the time to get some very high speed photography of an arrow leaving the string, and found that the nocks separated from the string several inches or BEFORE the string returned to BH, meaning that the last few inches of what is normally considered to be the power stroke were actually not contributing anything at all. Doesn’t matter how hard you push once the train is out of the station.

So… Anytime a bow is designed such that its string hits its peak velocity (or peak potential velocity?) within a distance shorter than the user’s DL, then, drawing it further would not be expected to yield any higher exit speed for the arrow.

And I think we confuse ourselves too easily by focusing on what the limbs are doing instead of what the string is doing at the nock,Because it’s not all about how fast the limbs are moving; it also matters a whole lot which direction they are moving in (yes I realize I just left a dangling preposition deal with it!).

Because think about it…

A bowstring that is not perfectly straight is under tension of course, but it still has some slack in it. And the fastest way to take out the slack is to move the two ends of the string in opposite directions; North-South. If you’re dragging both ends of the string from East to West, you could hit Mach 5 or more and that string will burn up from friction against the air before you get any slack out of it at all.

So if those big ol’ hooks on your SuperRecurve roll over at just the right time, they may be taking the slack out of your string the FASTEST at a point that’s a few inches short of your brace height while the limbs themselves are still accelerating.

And that’s why Larry talks about Timing and limb cycles as being critical to performance. And he does know a thing or two about that.

From: RJH1
Date: 10-Apr-20




Well GF,

Google Archers "paradox in slow motion" and will see that Byron Ferguson's arrow doesn't leave the bow till AFTER his bow reaches brace. About 3:15 in the video, and he is shooting a longbow not a super curve, so IDK about the arrow leaving the string before the bow reaches brace. This stuff is really not hard to reason, prove, or find video evidence of, but people keep trying to believe things happen that don't

From: GF
Date: 10-Apr-20




Well, so that’s the problem right there, isn’t it?

Just because Ferguson’s arrow doesn’t leave the string until at or past brace height doesn’t mean that it can’t happen that an arrow could be gone before then; it just means that his bow is of a design that can’t do it. (Note, too, but that doesn’t mean that there is anything at all wrong with his choice of bow; it just means that his is of a design which probably does benefit more from a longer draw length than some others might do).

If you consider a very long N2N longbow, those limb tips don’t get to be very much closer to each other at full draw than they were in the first place; the limbs and tips travel mostly straight forward, which means that all of that mass has to have time and space in which to get up to full speed, and there is no doubt that the limbs themselves continue to accelerate all the way up to where they slam into the ends of the string at brace height… Which translates (for many) into a great deal of hand shock.

A short, high-strung recurve, however… Well, that could be an entirely different story, depending on how the curves are designed to open up. Or not, as the case may be.

So if you’ll pardon me for saying so, I will not accept as a valid criticism your pointing out that there are exceptions to the rule... when my opening position is that there are no absolutes.

But if you happen to be a shorter draw archer and you have a yearning for more arrow speed, it might behoove you to look into a number of different designs to find one on which the string/nocking point velocity tops out much earlier in the limb cycle. Romance and nostalgia are all well and good, but at some point you have to decide what really matters to you and compromise accordingly.

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Apr-20




Even if GF is right ( he is not) about the arrow leaving the string before brace let’s say 2”, drawing the string back an extra 2” will not cause the nock to leave 4” before brace.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G0cq5_uR89Y

Watch this video around 6:30 mark, two vastly different draw length and yet the arrows don’t leave the string until past brace.

From: RJH1
Date: 10-Apr-20




Todd, I have given up. People are going believe what they want regardless of the evidence to the contrary. They will continue to come up with "what ifs" but offer no evidence to back their opinions. Kinda like moon landing conspiracy theorists

So I am done on this unless someone offers actual evidence to contradict what I have posted (If I am wrong I will gladly accept it), or has a serious question that I, or you have not answered already

From: GF
Date: 10-Apr-20




I don’t pretend to recall all the specifics of the film in question; I just recall that someone took the time to have it done.

Maybe someone will recall it better than I do and we can get either a first-hand report or a link to the actual footage.

Proving that something doesn’t always happen and proving that it cannot possibly happen are really two entirely different propositions. So before you decide that I’m all wrong about everything, let’s just figure out what we’re discussing...

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Apr-20




GF I do believe it was Larry who mention it. Guessing it was a Hoyt slow motion showing the effects of different brace heights I could be wrong. Never saw the video myself and not going refute his flight shooting result.

However I do have time on my hands(quarantined) and two other identical bows except draw weight, so maybe I’ll try it again. If I do I’ll start a new thread and post results. Stay tuned!

From: fdp
Date: 10-Apr-20




RJH, you have offered up exactly -0- pieces of verifiable evidence to any point that you have supported. In spite of the fact that you have constantly derided any one who has had an experience that is contrary to yours.

All that you have presented is personal experience or opinion just like everyone else who has posted.

From: RJH1
Date: 10-Apr-20




FDP, I offered video evidence, Todd offered evidence of what he had done, and yes, i offered personal experience using both compounds and recurves, shot over chronos, not across a field. But no one wants to accept that, or see if they can duplicate or refute it. They just say "Larry did, or Larry once said". I respect the hell out of Larry H, but I also do my own research and try to share it here, but I can't possibly begin to show something to someone who's response to what I have done is "So and so said." If you don't agree with what I or, Todd for that matter, has posted go test it for yourself. But be forewarned to battle against people who hears "someone say something" you are going to need video evidence, or else you will be wasting your time. Hell, you will probably be wasting your time with video evidence.

PS Google high camera speed bow shooting and see if you can find ANY bow, recurve, longbow, or compound that the arrow leaves the string before brace. It might be out there, but I didn't find it, and I looked, I didn't just take someone saying something for fact

Later

From: Sinner
Date: 10-Apr-20




Arrow length and weight figured into this? I only skimmed, so maybe someone brought that up. I would figure that would negate any "advantage" of a longer draw. I think it would be silly to assume equal arrow length and weight. But, I don't know...

From: GF
Date: 10-Apr-20




Lucky thing… Larry seems to be around this evening, so maybe he can set us all straight...

From: BooBoo
Date: 10-Apr-20




If the arrow left before brace....wouldnt that be a dryfire of sorts....depending how far before brace that occurred?

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Apr-20




Sinner in my test I used the same arrow (long) after all many people use much longer arrows than their draw and let’s say given the 2 bows are the same draw weight at different draw lengths using the same arrow would give the same grains per pound for fair comparison.

From: fdp
Date: 10-Apr-20




"FDP I offered video evidence" where ?

From: RJH1
Date: 10-Apr-20




FDP,

I listed what to google to see a video that an arrow doesn't leave the string before brace, something that was brought up. I have no video of me shooting a bow over a chrono, you would just have to trust that i did it. I have even done it on multiple chronos across the state and they have been fairly consistent with trad bows, compounds, and even guns, but what do I know. I have chronoed MANY bows, with varying draw weights, lengths and arrow weights, and if you don't think all else equal the longer draw bow has more velocity, I suggest you get a camera and a chrono and 2 like bows as described in the OP and shoot he same arrow across a chrono and post the video of your results. I don't care if you just personally loose the string, no machine needed. I will bet you lunch the longer draw bow will have more velocity. I have a feeling you won't take the bet

From: bluesman
Date: 10-Apr-20




I’m not getting it why a lot of you posters are not getting it . Do longbows and recurves all of a sudden magically oppose the law of physics ??????

The longer a force is placed on a stationary object the greater the speed and momentum ... simple .. there is no refutable argument unless you have a more brilliant mind than Einstein and other great physicists....

You can’t argue with the laws of physics unless you can disprove them through science ..

From: bluesman
Date: 10-Apr-20




Boker

100 percent certainty.... the answer is YES... all other things equal as you said the longer draw length will be faster ... this post should have been a short one ......

From: RJH1
Date: 10-Apr-20




Bluesman, I believe they might think that. And many on here do seem to want to try to argue with the laws of physics, who knows maybe we have a young Newton here LOL

From: fdp
Date: 10-Apr-20




I'm not talking at all about when an arrow leaves a bowstring. I'm not arguing at all that a longer draw length at same draw weight should produce a faster arrow if all else is equal.

The point that I was contesting (and still do based on my own experience)is that a 55 or whatever it was pound bow drawn to 28" will shoot the same arrow the same speed as a 65 or whatever it was pound bow shot with a 27" draw length unless the heavier bow was a dog. And I still stand by that contention.

From: RJH2
Date: 10-Apr-20




Fdp, if you are saying Todd's test is off, and 2 inches of draw length wouldn't equal ~10 fps which what his test showed and also happens to answer the question raised by the op, then i would like to hear your specific evidence to the contrary. Because Todd's test proves out pretty much exactly what i would expect as noted by my first post on this thread. ALL ELSE EQUAL 2 INCHES OF DRAW LENGTH WILL GAIN YOU 5-10 FPS. If you don't agree with that feel free to prove me wrong

Hopefully that clarifies my position, i know things can get sidetracked here.

Also you might want to reread Todd's clarification on his test, i think it was his second post on this thread,but i might be off a post or so. Maybe you missed it

From: GF
Date: 10-Apr-20




“ You can’t argue with the laws of physics unless you can disprove them through science ..”

Yeah, well... some of the laws of physics involve solving force vector equations.

So YES, the longer a force is applied to an object, the greater the acceleration; if acceleration is measured in feet/ second/ second, the more seconds, the more feet per.

But once the string begins to slow down, the force on the nock is no longer being applied, regardless of where/ when that happens. And what dictates how fast the nocking point is moving is the rate at which slack is being taken out of the string, which is greatest when the limb tips are moving directly away from each other - at least if you don’t have a big, recurved limb to wrap the string around.

From: fdp
Date: 11-Apr-20




Again, a bow that is 55lbs. at 30" should shoot an arrow taste than a bow that is 50lbs. at 28" using the same arrow.

I do not (and this is based on my experience) believe that a 55lb. bow at 29" will shot the same speed as a bow that is 65lbs. at 27" using the same arrow.

This entire topic got completely derailed wet back up there. The original question dealt with shooting a bow with your fingers. No one stated any reply except the hypothetically speaking the longer drawn bow should be faster. But, that there are certain physical Influences of the archer that can negate any potential gain of increasing draw length. And that is completely true. The characteristics of a persons release can have 10 or more fps. affect on speed. So, in the hands in the hands of a human, there may, or may not be an actual increase in speed.

Then there was the entire effort to make a group of archers sound as if they were too ignorant to understand the results of the one set of results that was presented, and that this same group was in some way intellectually inferior simply because they offer experiences that are contrary to those that you present.

Archery is certainly influenced by the laws of physics at its foundational level. But the fact is that when you put the bow in the hands of a human being a lot of times what should be according to the basic laws of physics isn't. And that was the original question.

From: RJH1
Date: 11-Apr-20




"Again, a bow that is 55lbs. at 30" should shoot an arrow taste than a bow that is 50lbs. at 28" using the same arrow. I do not (and this is based on my experience) believe that a 55lb. bow at 29" will shot the same speed as a bow that is 65lbs. at 27" using the same arrow."

YOU SHOULD REALLY REREAD WHAT TODD POSTED INSTEAD GOING WITH THE SAME WRONG INTERPRETATION TIME AND AGAIN. READ HIS CLARIFICATION, BECAUSE WHAT YOU ARE TYPING IS NOT WHAT HE SAID

"This entire topic got completely derailed wet back up there. The original question dealt with shooting a bow with your fingers. No one stated any reply except the hypothetically speaking the longer drawn bow should be faster. But, that there are certain physical Influences of the archer that can negate any potential gain of increasing draw length. And that is completely true. The characteristics of a persons release can have 10 or more fps. affect on speed. So, in the hands in the hands of a human, there may, or may not be an actual increase in speed."

EXCEPT THE OP SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED SHOOTING FROM A MACHINE TOO AND PEOPLE DISREGARDED WHAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO READ, AND DECIDED GO WITH "ENLIGHTENING THE OP" EVEN IF THAT DEFIED THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

"Then there was the entire effort to make a group of archers sound as if they were too ignorant to understand the results of the one set of results that was presented, and that this same group was in some way intellectually inferior simply because they offer experiences that are contrary to those that you present."

THERE WAS NO EFFORT NEEDED HERE, THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES. THE SAME COUPLE OF PEOPLE WANT TO ARGUE PHYSICS AND MISINTERPRET A TEST PROVIDED THAT TEST THE EXACT PRINCIPAL THAT THE OP ASKED ABOUT

"Archery is certainly influenced by the laws of physics at its foundational level. But the fact is that when you put the bow in the hands of a human being a lot of times what should be according to the basic laws of physics isn't. And that was the original question."

EXCEPT THE OP ACTUALLY POSTED "Assuming we could both shoot the exact same arrow, String etc etc and we can even say shooting takes place in a bow machine to take out the human error factor."

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME. I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU.

PS I AM NOT YELLING, JUST WRITING IN CAPS TO DIFFERENTIATE

HAVE A GOOD DAY

From: RJH1
Date: 11-Apr-20




"Yeah, well... some of the laws of physics involve solving force vector equations.

So YES, the longer a force is applied to an object, the greater the acceleration; if acceleration is measured in feet/ second/ second, the more seconds, the more feet per.

But once the string begins to slow down, the force on the nock is no longer being applied, regardless of where/ when that happens. And what dictates how fast the nocking point is moving is the rate at which slack is being taken out of the string, which is greatest when the limb tips are moving directly away from each other - at least if you don’t have a big, recurved limb to wrap the string around."

SO I AM GUESSING YOU NEVER FOUND A VIDEO WITH AN ARROW LEAVING THE STRING BEFORE BRACE. KEEP LOOKING IT MIGHT BE OUT THERE. YOU CAN PUT A LINK OR TELL ME WHAT TO GOOGLE TO SEE IT, CAUSE I AM GENUINELY CURIOUS AS I SIFTED THROUGH SEVERAL HIGH SPEED VIDEOS AND NOT ONE SHOWED THE EFFECT YOU ARE DESCRIBING. I AM NOT GOING TO ARGUE "WHAT IFS" WITH YOU, BUT THERE MYRIAD VIDEOS SHOWING WHAT I AM DESCRIBING THAT ARE EASILY FOUND, AND I FOUND NONE SHOWING WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING REGARDLESS OF THE BOW BEING USED.

PS STILL NOT YELLING

From: GF
Date: 11-Apr-20




It is CUSTOMARY to indicate when you are quoting someone else through the use of QUOTATION MARKS. If you were to take the time to learn the proper use of them, you wouldn’t come off as so hostile.

Just sayin’ - written language came up with a solution to that problem ages ago.

But the thing with Physics... You can’t treat Physics the way most people approach Religion, scooping up the bits that suit your worldview and insisting that the parts that you don’t care for don’t matter.

Nobody has argued whether acceleration continues over time, but velocity MUST change if/when the rate of acceleration drops below zero.

The thing is, just as an egg is just a chicken’s way of making another chicken, bow limbs are nothing but the means by which a riser straightens out a bowstring.

There’s no doubt that the limbs continue to accelerate until something (generally a taught bowstring at or very close to brace height) starts holding them back; the question is whether the same is strictly/necessarily true of the nocking point.

From: RJH2
Date: 11-Apr-20




GF, did you really not see the quotation marks where I quoted you? I mean I did use them. I happen to be a fan of the written language:-)

And I guess they're still no video of an arrow leaving the string before brace?

From: GF
Date: 11-Apr-20




I never said I had seen it; I said that I recall reading about it here from someone who struck me as a credible source at the time, and I believe that it is at least plausible that a bow could be engineered to accomplish such a thing.

And yes, I DID see the quotation marks that you used... but you did not use them entirely correctly.

And since you adopted the tactic of using ALL CAPS, ALL THE TIME to make your statements identifiable, that certainly suggests that you did not trust your use of quotation marks to do the job.

Either that, or you just like yelling…

From: RJH1
Date: 11-Apr-20




Still not yelling just wanted to make sure that no one thought that your opinions were mine.

And you are still arguing with hearsay, and there is a reason it is not allowed in court. Like i said i watches videos of several types of bows and NONE that i have seen does the arrow remotely come close to leaving the bow before brace, and I still ain't going to argue "what ifs" with you. You have presented an argument based on hearsay I have shown places to see video evidence to the contrary and and your answer is basically "but what if."

Try finding some actual evidence of the physics law bending bow you're talking, I would love to see it.





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