Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Arrow selection help please!

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Messages posted to thread:
krist003 02-Apr-20
2 bears 02-Apr-20
deerhunt51 02-Apr-20
Shawn 02-Apr-20
deerhunt51 02-Apr-20
krist003 02-Apr-20
Orion 02-Apr-20
reb 02-Apr-20
krist003 02-Apr-20
Shawn 02-Apr-20
krist003 02-Apr-20
TB 02-Apr-20
George D. Stout 02-Apr-20
krist003 02-Apr-20
Therifleman 02-Apr-20
Car54 02-Apr-20
deerhunt51 02-Apr-20
GF 02-Apr-20
krist003 02-Apr-20
Desperado 02-Apr-20
i 03-Apr-20
deerhunt51 03-Apr-20
Therifleman 03-Apr-20
GF 03-Apr-20
GF 03-Apr-20
deerhunt51 03-Apr-20
GF 03-Apr-20
deerhunt51 04-Apr-20
BigJim 06-Apr-20
Shawn 06-Apr-20
doug 06-Apr-20
gluetrap 06-Apr-20
Slowbowjoe 06-Apr-20
GF 06-Apr-20
fdp 07-Apr-20
krist003 08-Apr-20
BigJim 08-Apr-20
gluetrap 08-Apr-20
krist003 09-Apr-20
From: krist003
Date: 02-Apr-20




Hello all,

I wanted to see if some of you tuning pros could offer a newbie advise on where to start for arrows. I know there are a lot of factors so I would like arrows where I can tweak the weight up front to get desired flight. I do not have an arrow saw or fletching jig, so I will buy them complete.

My setup: Black Hunter/Galaxy Ember Recurve, 40# @ 28", shooting off of the shelf (calf-hair), 26.5" draw length, 3- under calf-hair tab

Purpose: Target and small game hunting

Arrow needs: I want carbon because of the durability, but am trying to keep the cost reasonable since I am new and will likely break a bunch. I would like to be able to use 100 grain tips because that is what is most widely available (and I can use broadheads, small game heads, etc. that I already have from my compound). That means the arrows that I select will likely need a very weak spine and very heavy inserts or the ability to add weight to the inserts.

Any advise on a particular arrow model, spine or components to achieve what I am looking for would be greatly appreciated! Thank you very much for your input!

From: 2 bears
Date: 02-Apr-20




700's >>>>-----> Ken

From: deerhunt51
Date: 02-Apr-20




^00 carbons for sure. Leave them full length, and 125- 155 grains up front would probaly work. I lean twords 145 grains or a little more myself for heads.

From: Shawn
Date: 02-Apr-20




You could leave a .700 spine long and shoot 100 grain head but you will have a light arrow. I would cut a .700 to 28"s add a hundred grain brass insert and shoot 100-125 Gran head. This will give your arrow enough weight to hunt big game with as well. Shawn

From: deerhunt51
Date: 02-Apr-20




600 spine for sure.

From: krist003
Date: 02-Apr-20




For some reason it is very hard to find 700's. Doesn't look like many companies even make them. Not to mention having the option to add heavy inserts. I would love to use a 100-150 grain insert, but who makes 600-700 spine with these heavy inserts? And also has them factory fletched with feathers?

600 or 700 Easton axis arrows with a 75 grain insert would probably work well. That is what I use out of my compound, but they are spendy for a beginner flinging at stumps and critters!

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 02-Apr-20




If you already have some Axis 600 and 700 shafts, give them a try in your recurve. No reason they shouldn't work.

From: reb
Date: 02-Apr-20




Big Jim's Dark Timbers; 700 shafts.

From: krist003
Date: 02-Apr-20




Sorry I guess that was confusing the way I wrote it. I use the Axis arrows with brass inserts in my compound, but they are 340 spine.

From: Shawn
Date: 02-Apr-20




.600s unless left long will be tough to get to spine right. GoldTip makes carbons I .700 spine and inside diameter is .246 and you can get 100 grain inserts easily fur them. Shawn

From: krist003
Date: 02-Apr-20




Thanks reb, those Big Jim Dark Timbers shafts look like to ticket for me! Good for him, looks like these were well needed in the industry.

I am leaning towards using 100 grain tips and 50-100 grain inserts to get some more weight for hunting. Better FOC too.

In regards to the Big Timber arrows: Should I go with 50 or 100 grain inserts? 600's or 700's? and what length?

From: TB Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 02-Apr-20




I shoot 29" 700 Big Jim's Dark Timbers with a 50 grain brass inserts out of bows (recurves & Longbows) with draw weights very similar to what you have with 145 gr. pts. up front with excellent results.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 02-Apr-20




700's at 29" with 50gr insert and 145 tips. I hate full length arrows.

From: krist003
Date: 02-Apr-20




Thanks TB! That's good to know. Very similar to what I was considering.

From: Therifleman
Date: 02-Apr-20




Do not cut arrows based on someone elses magic number. The finished length should be a product of tuning to get an arrow that will work optimally for your bow. You'll likely end up w arrows that won't be right if you just cut them w/out even tuning ( like bareshafting) to find the correct length. Too many factors between bows not to mention our forms to predict. For example my Pika which is 44#@27 tunes well w 800 dark timbers cut to just over 28" w 200 up front. These arrows are waaay too weak out of my black widow pch which is 40#@27"--- it needed beman 600s cut to 28 3/8 w 175 up front ( these arrows are too stiff from the Pika). The widow is cut a bit past center while the Pika is cut a bit before center--- even though the Pika is 4# heavier it needs a weaker arrow to flex around the riser. As Ken indicated, 700s would be a good starting point and may work for you w your desired point weight--- the only way you'll know for sure is through tuning--- once your form is refined enough. In the meantime shoot them full length and work on mechanics---then tune and cut to Length slowly if they are weak.

From: Car54 Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 02-Apr-20




Call Big Jim and also ask him.

From: deerhunt51
Date: 02-Apr-20




600 spine full length with 145 grain heads. I know they tune perfect as I have that bow and same draw length.

From: GF
Date: 02-Apr-20




No way I could shoot a 600 from #40. I mean, you can always force something to work, but...

How far past center do they cut that riser?

From: krist003
Date: 02-Apr-20




The black hunter appears to be cut about 3/16” past center. With my calf hair rest I think I come out to about -.1.0. Would it be better to build it out closer to zero or even slightly positive?

When bareshaft tuning, how much do you cut off of an arrow at a time when trying to achieve the right stiffness?

From: Desperado
Date: 02-Apr-20




I'm with you George,,I hate full length arrows as well...Cole, take advice from George...Just my 2 cents !!

From: i
Date: 03-Apr-20




Carbon Express has some decent 600-700-800 Predator II shafts.

From: deerhunt51
Date: 03-Apr-20




600 spine full length, 155 grain two blade, 40# bow drawn to 26", two shots, two dead bucks, two holes per deer, watched both die. Good season, how did yours go?

From: Therifleman
Date: 03-Apr-20




Cole when beginning to bareshaft, if you are getting weak results with your shaft, cut no more than 1/4" at a time. Take your time w the bareshaft---sometimes ill get to final tune over a couple days. If you go a little too far, you will need to use a heavier tip. Go too far and youll need to start over.

Sent you a PM.

From: GF
Date: 03-Apr-20

GF's embedded Photo



What Rifleman said.

Helpful hint: take the length off of the nock end.

From: GF
Date: 03-Apr-20

GF's embedded Photo



700 maybe oughtta do it...

I would say that I take the recommendations for carbons with a grain of salt; this tool has been dead nuts for me so far.

And which shaft you use is important; you may notice here that the 600 is reported to be lighter than the 700, so there are a lot of factors which can be fudged.

But about the only thing you can't un-do is cutting them down too far...

From: deerhunt51
Date: 03-Apr-20




First off, it's a black hunter recurve, not a longbow. I ran the numbers on three rivers spine calulator, they do not offer black hunter or Ember as a choise, however the Samick Sage should work out very close. With that substatution I got Bow dynamic spine of 49.3 and 3Rivers traditional only 600 spine, 28.5" long, 145 grain tip, 20 grain insert, 3X4" fearthers, dynamic spine 50.3. As we all know, start full length and try differnt lengths by cutting and point weight. GREAT MATCH, and I have proven it myself real life expireance.

From: GF
Date: 03-Apr-20

GF's embedded Photo



OK, so switching from R/D longbow to recurve changed the spine requirement by a whole pound and a half... Saints preserve us!

I don't know how you're coming up with under a #50 requirement, though... Heavy string?? Or maybe 3R's calculator doesn't think much of the Sage... ;)

If you assume the bow is cut to '3/16 and then you add 1/16 back in with a bit of leather and maybe a matchstick underneath (paper for me, please) and you net out at -1/8" on the strike plate, then yup, 51's recipe comes out right on the money on a 28" shaft, assuming you've got the right string...

Only potential fly in the ointment there is that you appear to come up at 10.5 GPP; that's much too heavy for some and far too light for others here. So that's up to individual preference. I like shooting closer to 8, myself, but lighter is good for targets and 9-ish is good for hunting, and I shoot higher poundage so that leaves more options all the way around...

From: deerhunt51
Date: 04-Apr-20




I used that exact bow and arrow combination with 155 grain two blade broadhead to cleanly harvest two nice bucks this past fall. I assure you they fly perfect. I had complete penatration. I double lunged both deer and watched both die in sight. Really suprising to some bow hunters that a 395 grain arrow flying 170-175 fps could be so effective.

From: BigJim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Apr-20
BigJim is a Stickbow.com Sponsor - Website




The 700 spine is what i would go with. If the shaft you choose ends up being too stiff, the only recourse is to add a bunch of weight up front. Not the most desireable scenario.

If you pick a shaft that is a little weak and remains so even after cutting it to it's minimum length, you can always build out the sight window to obtain your objective.

Calculators are only accurate if you put in accurate information! My experience is that most people don't know ther "REAL" draw length. I am constantly proving it to customers. Being measured while drawing the bow with no intention of shooting is only a guess. To know your true average draw, someone should watch you shoot and figure how much shaft is protruding from the bow... then subtract that from arrow length.

Often while measuring, people tend to change their posture and try to think about how they might stand and draw. That is something they rarely do while actually shooting.

BigJim

From: Shawn
Date: 06-Apr-20




You also want to tune your arrow so it is ever so slightly weak if you are gonna hunt with it. As a broadhead will stiffen it ever so slightly! Shawn

From: doug
Date: 06-Apr-20




i have one in 40# & it likes 700s at29" with 145 up front. my 45# black hunter or galaxy likes 600s with 146 up front.

From: gluetrap
Date: 06-Apr-20




I can shoot a bunch of stuff outa my b.h. lb. but I got ways to cut n fletch ect. ifn I wuz you I would get big jims arrows he can cut n fletch n install inserts ready to go! one stop shop. get several weight points n find the ones that shoot best. he got them too. also got 145 gr. that are narrow n just right for the blk. timbers.

From: Slowbowjoe
Date: 06-Apr-20




Shawn, you sure about a broadhead stiffening the spine? Thought it worked the other way... first heard about that from Kelly; started noticing I usually shoot a few pounds stiffer spine with my BH's. No expert here, just my experience.

From: GF
Date: 06-Apr-20




“ I used that exact bow and arrow combination with 155 grain two blade broadhead to cleanly harvest two nice bucks this past fall. I assure you they fly perfect.”

Sample size of One, brother!

As Big Jim said, the calculator is only as accurate as the input. And even then, it’s just a starting point. That’s why Stu created the “personal form factor” component. For some people, the calculator will be dead nuts; for the rest of the world, individual results may vary. There are those who say that they calculator always leaves them far too stiff, but that’s what the form factor is there to correct for.

Personally, I’ve been extremely lucky with it. Whatever mistakes I’ve been making with my inputs, I always make the same ones; and that (so far) has saved me from needing to figure out my Form Factor.

But for the purposes of the OP here, we just need to know (or he needs to consider) whether he is looking for a specific All Up weight, or if he just wants an arrow that is well tuned and does not give up any speed unnecessarily. To Jim’s point, a too-stiff spine forces you into a needlessly heavy point/arrow, at least for target work.

From: fdp
Date: 07-Apr-20




Buy a test kit of arrows in 3 or 4 different spines. Then ho put and play with them until you understand what spine is, and what affects under the influence of you shooting.

That way you will know how to choose proper spine for the rest of your time in archery.

From: krist003
Date: 08-Apr-20




Big thanks to everyone who has replied. I ordered some dark timbers, 700 spine, 29" long with 50 grain inserts. Thanks for chiming in by the way Big Jim! Picked up one of your quivers while I was at it. Can't wait to test them out!

I was contemplating bumping up to some 45# longbow limbs for this bow in the future (shooting 40# recurve limbs at the moment, 26.5" draw length). Think there will be much of a difference in how these arrows shoot between setups?

From: BigJim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Apr-20
BigJim is a Stickbow.com Sponsor - Website




When shooting field tips, it can be difficult to tell the difference between only 5 lbs of bow weight change.... fletched arrows with field tips that is.

I talk with guys all the time that have arrows that "Fly like Darts!" yet I know that it is impossible they are shooting the ideal arrows for their bows. Many times they are too stiff by 2 or even 3 spine classes... but they fly like darts!

Or maby they shoot so poorly, they can't tell the difference. I don't know. BigJim

From: gluetrap
Date: 08-Apr-20




probably shoot very well. I was messing around shooting 75-225 heads out of my BH long bow 40lb with long 6 or 700 cant remember which n they shot well. only got a 25.5 draw, don't think they even flex :)

From: krist003
Date: 09-Apr-20




Good to know, thanks gents.





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