From: Thor
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Got a arrow question for you guys that bare tune shafts.What do you think? Is it better to have a arrow that is slightly weak or slightly stiff coming out of the bow.If for some reason it won't tune perfect.I have heard some where that slightly weak is a little better,It makes sense to me,but......
|
|
From: 2 bears
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Ever so slightly weak. Feathers stiffen it just a tad. We are talking very small amounts used by the finest tuners. >>>>-----> Ken
|
|
From: camodave
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
I think a bit weak is better than a bit stiff
I find shooting Blazer vanes off the shelf works fine with arrows just a bit weak.
Tons of game has been killed with arrows that were never bareshaft tuned. Errors in form have a far greater effect than any errors in tuning.
DDave
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Slightly weak.
I tune my bare shafts a bit weaker for vanes, than I do for feathers, because the vanes are heavier.
Rick
|
|
From: Viper
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Thor -
Anyone one here who believes that can tell the difference between a "slightly" weak and "slightly" stiff fletched arrow is huffing glue.
That being said, most serious Olympic shooters find that an arrow tuned slightly stiff yields better groups.
Viper out.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Are those serious archers shooting off the shelf, off of a rest, or with the aid of a Berger Button??
I’d think those things would make some difference, but I don’t know much about what those differences might be.
And FWIW, it seems to me that the difference between slightly stiff, slightly weak, or by-damn “perfect” is about 10 yards. Because I’ve had several arrows that flew straight down the middle out to an honest 20 yards and so far all of them have shown decidedly weak when shot out to 30-35.
I’m not saying it does me any good to obsess over it, because my form isn’t exactly perfect in consistency (whose really is??), but any time I think I have anything really figured out, all I have to do is back up another 5-10.
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Tony, for me it's all about getting fletch clearance shooting from the shelf.
Never huffed glue in my life, but I sure can tell the difference.
Lots of times all I have to do is look at the fletching to tell the difference, even when there is nothing else apparent.
Rick
|
|
From: Fredjake1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
If you skip the bare shaft tuning can you just go by arrows that group well as well as fly straight? Just wondering because that is what I have been doing as well as checking my broadheads grouping and flight
|
|
From: Viper
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
Rick -
If any fletch short of a flu-flu is showing clearance issues, the bow just isn't tuned. Sure, you can make a lot of arrow spines "tune" to a given bow, but adequate paradox is part of the tune. As an extreme example, I can have an arrow that's too stiff, bare shaft perfectly, and the second I fletch it, the hen feathers start getting burned a,d it's not because the 5- 10 grains of feathers are stiffening the dynamic spine.
Frankly, most people are best served by visual tuning parameters and stopping there. Unless your DL, your release and a host of other things are the same every time, slightly stiff or weak just doesn't factor in with fletched arrows.
Viper out.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
FJ - that's what I did for the first 20 years or so.... LOL.
But if you can't go to a target and prove to yourself that BHs fly any different than FPs out as far as you're prepared to shoot, then you can reasonably be confident that your tune is not causing you to miss... so as long as the charts say that you're right about in range, get some nice, big fletchings on there and don't make yourself crazy.
My best advice for moving toward bare shaft tuning is to run a 1" strip of blue painter's tape down the middle of your target; if you can expect to hit it regularly with FPs, then try BH and see if you keep hitting it or if they consistently group to one side or the other. If they do, it's probably time to strip the feathers off of a couple and see where the bare shafts hit.
|
|
From: longbowguy
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Nov-19 |
|
I was once given 3 dozen shafts too stiff for my heaviest bow, 2020s, great heavy shafts. I added point weight to help bend them but they still came out stiff but I wanted to use them.
Eventually, I found that if I made a full draw with best form and a strong shot they went just where they should. If I did not do that they struck left. So I practiced with the a lot and the need to shoot my best with them did me a lot of good.
Now with other setups I tend to tune a bit strong just to keep me honest with my form. It serves as a sort of a draw check.
For hunting arrows, I tend to go the other way because hunting conditions may cause me to shoot less than perfectly. Then I want the forgiveness of a properly tuned arrow, maybe a trifle weak. - lbg
|
|
From: fdp
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
Fredjake 1, you can certainly tune just as you indicated and get results that are as consistent and as effective as the majority of people will ever be able to shoot.
All of this tuning stuff has been made incredibly complicated over the course of the past few years. To the point that I have seen numerous people completely abandon an arrow that had worked for them for eons, spend countlss dollars chasing another arrow, only to end up where they started. We see it on here all the time.
Get the arrows hitting a vertical line and put feathers on them. Outside of that any determination of whether they should be "weak" or "stiff" is based on individual shooter influence and is not predictable by anyone on here.
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
Some folks could mess up a junkyard with a rubber hammer. Very few are good enough to live on the enths of tuning basics. It seems to me that if you're tuning, why not use the closest statics from the start so you can easily work with your intended dynamics. This sport just ain't so complicated that you need a degree in metaphysics to get arrows to fly well.
|
|
From: Bowmania
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
I agree with Rick and Tony!!!
First off, most probably can't tell of they're weak or stiff, so if they have a bare shaft impacting near the fletched ... or more importantly broadhead near fletched field point, they're good to go.
Where I agree with Tony is a target archer with a stiff arrow is probably more accurate, because a change in draw length or form won't be affected as much by a stiffer arrow.
But when it comes to hunting the odds of a hunter drawing an arrow back further then he usually does when he has two extra jackets on is nill. So he's probably better off with a weaker arrow.
Bowmania
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
It's easier to adjust for weaker spines than it is for stiffer spines for the average person, since a small build out of the pressure point will accommodate the difference without a change to the arrow itself. It's harder to go into the riser any further than it is cut so stiffer usually requires a longer arrow or heavier tip.
|
|
From: Therifleman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
My goal in bareshafting, as Ken said is to end up with a shaft that is ever so slightly weak. Adding feathers does have the effect of stiffening the arrow's reaction just a bit. I tune for weak, also because I find myself in some contortions sometimes in treestands that result in my draw shortening a bit---a bit weak buys a little forgiveness.
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
I've learned a lot while playing with adding/removing both point weight, and tail end weight on an arrow.
Learned a lot from adding/removing weight on the string too, which has almost the exact same effect as adding/removing tail end weight of the arrow
When the "FACT" weight systems came along where you can easily add/remove internal weight (at both ends) of the arrow I went all in experimenting with them, and it became even more apparent to me just how much tail end weight can change a tune, and just how little of it makes a noticeable difference.
Sometimes that difference shows itself only in arrow flight, sometimes only in fletching wear, and sometimes both, but the difference is there if you know what to look for.
There are so many things you can do to tuning by adding or removing weight at both ends (even on the string itself), that your possibilities are almost limitless. Again "if you know what to look for".
It's often a mistake to say (can't) where it applies to anyone other than yourself just because you don't happen to be able to, or haven't taken the time/interest to figure it out.
Yeah, I'm a nerd. An "Archery Nerd" to be more specific in this case, and yes I can tell the difference. I love to tinker with things. Why? Because, I love learning new things. :-)
Rick
|
|
From: 2 bears
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Nov-19 |
|
I agree with nearly every ones points. There is a big difference in Olympic shooters,their equipment, and hunters. I assume most of us are every day recreational shooters and hunters. Therefor slightly weak. You can tell by increased distance like GF said. While I have great respect for Viper and recommend his book highly, maybe I have fletched too many arrows. The sniffing certainly wasn't intentional. I don't have the time or distance to determine slightly weak personally. When bare shafts,fletched shafts,& broadheads are grouping together out to my max. hunting range,I call it good. It has certainly worked for me. Good thread filled with good information. Pick what suits your personal situation. >>>>------> Ken
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Nov-19 |
|
Someone pointed out to me, that my following statement may have come off as arrogant:
[[[ "It's often a mistake to say (can't) where it applies to anyone other than yourself just because you don't happen to be able to, or haven't taken the time/interest to figure it out." ]]]
I don't think that comes off as arrogant, and it certainly was not intended to be, but let me reword it some.
Just because I can't, don't mean you can't. I'm certainly not going to tell you, that you can't just because I can't. Chances are you'll just go out, and prove me wrong.
Better? 8^)
Rick
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Nov-19 |
|
Didn’t strike me as “arrogant“ at all, Rick!
But I certainly get where Tony is coming from… What makes sense for any of us individually as dedicated Archery Nerds and what makes sense when you’re a Coach getting paid by the hour to produce a specific result are two entirely different things, I suspect...
|
|
From: DT1963
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Nov-19 |
|
I put broadheads on my fletched arrows and shoot them out to 50 to 60 yards - if they impact on a reasonable vertical line where I am looking I am done. Period. I can shoot a lot of different spines from all my bows with fletched arrows. and with a Velcro rest - there will always be some feather wear after 100s of shots.... at least there is for me. I suck as far as form, but I suck consistently and get them where I need them out to 25 yards with big broadheads which is all I am concerned with. I will never be an Olympic archer - I am ok with that.
|
|
From: felipe
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Nov-19 |
|
Viper; I wish I could find some good glue. All they will sell me is that crazy super glue anymore.
I like that you put the onus on bow tuning. I see lately that some archers like to shoot close to center tuned bows so they can shoot a stiffer arrow. To me, that combination may work but is particular to fletching clearance and string release.
|
|
From: Viper
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Nov-19 |
|
felipe -
"I wish I could find some good glue."
You ain't the only one. The problem with CA's is a relatively short shelf life after opening. Even putting it in the fridge only helps a little. I've had great luck with fresh bottles, but after a few months, it's hit or miss.
but we digress...
Viper out.
|
|
From: TGbow
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
For 44 years I never bareshaft tuned until last month. Only reason I'm mentioning this is just in case the OP may may find it helpful. I know what spine will work with wood or aluminum but in this case I was tuning carbons, and I'm fairly new to carbons. For me, I just didn't find BS to be any help, not saying you shouldn't bare shaft tune, but I ended up doing what I have always done, just fletched a couple of 600s and 500s, at a certain length and after a few minutes I knew what arrow flew the best.
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
I concede it is much more difficult to tell the difference in stiff/weak on fletched arrows than on bare shaft, but the OP was speaking specifically of bare shaft.
That said: I would love to sneak some otherwise identical nocks (but 6 grains heavier) into about three arrows of a really good 20 yard indoor target shooters quiver, then stand back, and watch them scratching their head.
Get the whole thing on video from start to discovery of the problem. 8^)
I've seen similar (non intentional) WTF moments happen to some very accomplished archers.
It makes a difference (even on fletched), and the better you are, the quicker you'll notice it.
Rick
|
|
From: Bassman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
My arrows always seem to end up a little stiff for some reason.Cut past center with a plunger, and flipper rest you can tune a bow up to shoot a variety of spines.I shoot a 600 spine arrow with a 100gr pt. tip out of three different bows that I use for indoor target. The bow with the plunger set up shoots as close to perfect as I can tune a bow. The other 2 with stick on rests tune slightly stiff.I am not good enough to notice the difference when shooting for score. To answer your question for me anyhow slightly stiff.
|
|
From: Orion
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
Hmmmmm. I don't deal with "slightlies." However, I have found that most of my bows will shoot overspend arrows quite well, underpinned arrows not so much.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
All I know is, if you ever think you have this stuff all figured out, just back up 10 yards!
ROFL
That said, I shot arrows that were much too stiff for a long, long time and had no clue. Didn’t keep my broadheads from flying as well as I could expect to shoot.... and I mean EXACTLY where I was looking on longer shots than I would normally need to take out east here.... but now that I have arrows that are tuned a lot better...... I shoot a lot better.... on a more predictable basis.
Gotta be something to it.
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
[[[ "Hmmmmm. I don't deal with "slightlies." However, I have found that most of my bows will shoot overspend arrows quite well, underpinned arrows not so much." ]]]
My point is:
If you are bare shaft tuning - if you tune the bare shafts slightly weak, they will then shoot dynamically stiffer once you fletch them, therefore they are not shooting weak as the finished arrow.
But, if you tune the bare shafts to shoot perfectly, then once fletched they will shoot a bit stiff, and the heavier the fletching is the stiffer they will shoot.
Trial & error shows you just how much weak you need to tune your bare shafts for the fletching you'll be using.
Like I said in an earlier post - I have to tune my bare shafts a bit weaker for shooting vanes, because the vanes are considerable heavier than feathers.
Does it really matter to most folks in the end all be all of it? Nope.
But, it does make a difference, and for those who are looking/tuning for complete fletching clearance when shooting from the shelf it can make a huge difference, especially if you are shooting vanes from the shelf.
Rick
|
|
From: Thor
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
Thanks guys for all your opinions,It sure seems like the weaker spine is better.Have a great day,everyone
|
|
From: Orion
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
Rick: I don't doubt what you're saying. I was just suggesting that for myself, I don't tune that finely. In fact, I seldom bare shaft. I've been shooting sticks for more than 60 years and pretty much know what is going to work for me.
I buy the shaft spine I want, cut it to the length I want and put on the up front weight i want, fletch it and shoot it. Now all of this requires quite a bit of noodling in advance, but In almost all cases, the arrow goes exactly where I want it to go, no proposing, no fish tailing, etc. If I get perfect arrow flight with a fletched arrow (field point and broadhead) , and hit what I'm shooting at, I see no reason to do any further tuning.
If i don't get good arrow flight, and i can't correct it with point weight or side plate modification, then I'll do some bare shafting. But, as I said, I seldom need to.
|
|
From: Rick Barbee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Nov-19 |
|
Yeah Jerry. I'm not knocking other folks methods to get where they want to be.
My primary argument was, and still is - changing tail end weight makes a noticeable difference (especially on bare shafting), therefore a usable difference "IF" you want to work with it.
Rick
|
|
If you have already registered, please sign in now
For new registrations Click Here
|
|
|