Im posting this in the hopes that it can help someone who is struggling with hitting what they are aiming at. I've tried instinctive for years and reached a plateau in my accuracy. Wanting to keep progressing I have moved on to other ways. This post in no way diminishes what is possible with instinctive shooting--I have a couple friends that are very accomplished instinctive shots. I'm just not wired that way. Its not about "short cuts"---I shoot each day and have done so for years. Its about what works for me. For quite some time I've used a fixed crawl in the whitetail woods and it has worked well, but I was never happy throwing the limbs on my one piece long bows out of time. This 3D season I used Jimmy Blackmon's aiming reference video as a guide to gap at the riser (no marks on my bow, just using what is there in accordance with the rules). It worked very well for me. Trying to apply it in the woods on deer was another story. I have found that I am most accurate on deer when I can just put the point of the arrow on the spot and shoot. So this year I built a heavier arrow to get my 15-20 yard point on. I charted out the trajectory results of 3 different arrows today, just to see what they were doing from 15-30 yards. I know its obvious that a heavier arrow is going to drop off faster and that a lighter arrow is going to fly flatter, but thought someone might find this interesting. I was hoping to find a combination that would work for our 3D and deer hunting, but I'm not wired that way. In 3D or 5spot competition I am able to "think" my way through the shot and split vision works for me. After 40 some years in the deer woods, I am still highly excited when a shot presents itself and have found the point on method works for me. If you don't like the post or want to argue, please move on to another thread. I'll post the results from my phone following this post.

Could you get the 700 to tune with the 200gr point at 44 lbs?

700 DT (30.5") with a 125 tunes in my 34lb BW PL.

600 DT (30.5") with 175 up front (395) tunes with that bow as well

600 Beamon Trad (32.5) with 135 up front (380) tunes.

500 GT Trad with 175 (463gr) up front tunes with my 46lb Abbot R/D. I haven't tried 600's with it.

I’m lost already LOL

If they're not all the same length your point on if effected by that much more than weight at 30 and under. I guess bow speed would be big on that also. The weigh would mean more on a slower bow.

I learned to use point-on just a few years after I started bowhunting. Mainly it was for field archery since I shot barebow and needed a reference or those past 50 yard targets. I found that with split finger, my point-on is nearly 55 to 60 yards, depending on the bow/arrow combination. At any rate, it is still past 50 yards even with my hunting weight arrows.

We all have different aspects of our form and release, etc., that give some an advantage over others when it comes to distance shooting. For hunting distance it's not as important and the so-called instinctive style works well for the most part.

Guys who want to use the tip of the arrow for all distances can work out a plan like the OP has and it should work just fine. I personally trust my trained form to make adjustments for close-in shooting (under 50 yards). Hitting the target should be the goal of every archery, and hitting it consistently is what good form does for you, however you choose to do it.

I don't change any arrow weights or lengths since that would mess with my ingrained form. I just adapt to the shot by resorting to following that form. If it's a long shot, then the point-on comes into play. Good stuff for discussion.

I also find the many guys who suffer not reaching those longer targets, also have an issue with keeping the bow arm in play during the shot. That is one thing I have to think about too when shooting past the short ranges....even though it's equally important at 10 yards as it is at 60 yards.

Mike, the 700 with the 200 grain tips has two strands of weed trimmer line in it to bring up the weight. This shaft tuned great with a 125 stinger (without the weed trimmer line at around 380 grains) and tunes very well with a 200 grizzly with the weed trimmer line at 516 grains. Both set ups yeild broadheads and field points that group together at 20 yards. I had never had weed trimmer line stiffen the spine of an arrow, but I am figuring that maybe that along with how much slower the arrow is going allows me to use both tips with the full 32.5" shafts.

GLF---both 700 set ups were 32.5" and the carbon express was one I "extended" w aluminum to get to 35". You're correct length has a substantial (maybe most significant) impact on point on.

The heavier arrow definitely puts me where I want to be in the whitetail woods, but I'm sure it would cost me dearly on the longer shots at 3D. I have figured out that my mind quickly adjusts to what set up I'm working with. The heavy arrow works great also for our 20 yard 5 spot and our 20 yard winter 3D league. The nice thing is all I have to do is swap out the trimmer line and the tip at the end of whitetail season and indoor shoots and I will be ready for our outdoor 3D.

It looks like your 516gr arrow is exactly what you need - 1" above the place you put the arrow tip at 15 yards and point on at 20 yards. Nice!

Been reading the Rifleman for some time. He is very analytical. He has had 2 previous aiming methods, both worked very well for me. I like the idea of a hunting bow and arrow selection that is deadly at a persons hunting range and left tuned. I don't care for making changes. A bow for fun everyday or 3 D shooting can be set up for the game you play. It seems to be no problem switching between bows because the hunting bow is only shot at 20 yards and under. For the rare can't turn down perfect shot at 25 yards a little hold over distance is easily remembered. I believe most of us have more than one bow. That shouldn't present a hardship. Most have a third bow that could be changed and experimented with daily without affected your go to bows. That is my plan and I am sticking to it. :^) Have fun and shoot straight. >>>>-----> Ken

Thanks guys!

Point on is to know your trajectory the bow shoots. This way you know when your shooting 3d or further targets how to adjust. If you see the arrow falls short at a certain rage then you know to raise up.

If it goes high at a certain range you know to go lower.

Now you won'[t know unless you shoot the arrows and have them flying straight just what they will do.

Then you know ok take some weight off front mor add some weight and monkey around like that.

To write things down like this some of us get confused easy like me. LOL

The faster the bow the flatter it is going to shoot generally.

Fun is the main thing in my opinion. And I found out long ago, that the more fun I have the better I shoot.

I like that chart recording the results.

It shows how fast a heavy arrow drops after 20 metres. Almost three feet!

Thanks for posting your work and giving other archers a head start.

Not sure I understand where you're headed, but arrow weight is only one of many factors hunters manipulate to achieve a 'point on' at 20-25 typical hunting yardage. Nothing wrong with heavy arrows, especially for hunting, but there are others ways to "skin that cat". They include intentionally high nock sets, raising anchor point, fixed crawls, string walking, etc. Probably the most simple is the first and Dewayne Martin has an excellent video on how to do it.

Many ways to accomplish the same thing.

In my mind, and I've made this point a number of times. the most logical way to achieve the deired point on is by manipulating arrow weight.

Changing the sighting reference/anchor point isn't an option for some folks. SImply because it isn't comfortable, or due to a physical malady.

String walking/fixed crawl is O.K. but many folks end up with a bow that is noisier than they want it to be. And you only have a true tune with one finger placement on the string.

The raising the nock thing just plain doesn't work for many as they aren't able to achieve descent arrow clearance/flight.

What it looks like to me is that an arrow in the 8 1/2 or 9 1/2 GPP range actually shoots pretty darn flat out to 25 yards, then plunges 14 1/2 inches in the next five.

I have no idea, though, how these numbers stack up against what I would get, since I shoot split and my arrows are only 28“.

Makes me think I should repeat the exercise, though… I know I definitely need to be more mindful of my gap at close range, because I have a nasty habit of hitting (or even missing!) too high from the Kids’ stake, which is usually placed at about what most would consider reasonable hunting range...

my intent is not to be negative just my take on the whole instinctive-gap-split vision types of shooting it was the middle 80s I shot a Hoyt 48"pro vantage with fingers & pins no peep or kisser button just my index in the corner of my mouth & 3 under. it was the first day of deer season I was still hunting & I had snuck to within what I guessed 25 yards of a 6 point buck crunching acorns in some whiteoaks I drew anchored split my 20 & 30 yard pins released & drove a 2219 with a zwickey Eskimo into the oak tree just under the buck. he ran off but wasn't sure what happened so I hung tite & he came back & this time i guessed 30+ yards & held my 30 pin I little high & shot over him !?!? I got so mad at myself I just went home. I had been shooting a Hoyt ram reflex recurve for a few years but never hunted with it... that day changed that for me I decided if I was going to (GUESS YARDS) & miss I was going to learn to kill deer with that recurve & it took me till almost the last day of bow season but I killed my first deer with a trad bow. I had absolutely no instruction & my biggest problem was to learn to pick a spot & not shoot at the whole deer but I figured it out.. now fast foward 35 years & a LOT of deer killed with both wheel & trad bows & I had that same Hoyt converted to ilf & decided to give gap shooting a honest try & I immediately started shooting better groups than I had for quite some time ok great now here's my delimma conundrum or whatever ya want to call it ... so now I'm back to guessing yards & aiming & if I'm gonna do that I'm just gonna put pins on the thing. I know some will disagree but it's how my literal mind works...my point on with my old bow now ilf & 38-40#s with 28" .700s & 175 points is 25 yards. I have a 26" draw & have no interest in shooting full length arrows

Everybody aims, unless they shoot with their eyes closed.

The difference being in whether you do or do not choose to admit that fact, and whether you do it based on using the arrow, or if it's more of a product of the poistion of the bow hand in the peripheral vision.

I agree 100% that everyone aims.. but everyone absolutely does not conchesly estimate yardage & then aim accordingly

Thanks for the laugh, Timex!

I had the exact same problem on my home 3-D course - which I shot exactly one time with a compound. I think that day cost me 50 bucks’ worth of arrows!!!

Conscious range estimation is just not a strong suit of mine, and as soon as I put a number in my head, I’m pretty well lost.

But as Rifleman‘s numbers show, out to about 25 yards it’s really pretty non- critical unless you have deliberately crippled your rig with a heavy, sluggish arrow. Hmmm... he seems pretty smart for a Gun Guy..... ;)

Thanks for the laugh, Timex!

I had the exact same problem on my home 3-D course - which I shot exactly one time with a compound. I think that day cost me 50 bucks’ worth of arrows!!!

Conscious range estimation is just not a strong suit of mine, and as soon as I put a number in my head, I’m pretty well lost.

But as Rifleman‘s numbers show, out to about 25 yards it’s really pretty non- critical unless you have deliberately crippled your rig with a heavy, sluggish arrow. Hmmm... he seems pretty smart for a Gun Guy..... ;)

timex I really think that everyone who hits anything does estimate yardage and aim accordingly. And I beleive that's the difference between the best "instintive" shooters and those that are pretty good.

You HAVE TO estimate the yardage accurately to hit ANYTHING; it’s just a matter of how much conscious vs. sub-conscious effort you put into it.

Sounds like Timex does best with conscious technique, and I can tell you for a fact that it’s the quickest way to blow me up.

Every ballistic object follows a parabolic flight path; there’s a relatively flat portion in that curve. How flat it is depends on velocity and how long it lasts (beginning and ending distance from launch point) depends on the angle of launch. Just a hair above horizontal (as with Rifleman’s 35” arrow) has him dead “flat” from 15- 20 yards (though strictly speaking, he must necessarily be above +5” in between those marks); the shorter, faster 380 grain arrow climbs higher and levels off farther down-range for not quite as great a distance. Launch an incredibly fast arrow straight up, and it’s “flat” distance will be down to zero.

So there are compromises to be made. Probably, most stickbow hunters would be better off shooting 3-under, but I don’t expect I’ll change from split just ‘cuz I’m too ornery....

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