Would a 2016 xx75 be tougher than a 2114 xx75 due to greater wall thickness or would the 2114 be tougher due to larger diameter. I usually shoot 2114s but shot a 2016 I fletched up yesterday and dang, I really shot it well. Seemed a bit more "forgiving." They are very close in spine.

They are close but the 2016 is a bit narrower so that may be the bonus for you. I shoot 2016 and they are pretty durable. You don't want to shoot rocks with them but they otherwise do fine.

would think the 2016 more bend resistant

Ralph is correct-- smaller diameter plus thicker wall=tougher shaft.

I have to say no aluminum shaft is bombproof. I have a 2020 on the bench now I bent a week or so ago. I like using aluminum arrows but if I need rugged I reach for my footed carbons.

1820's are tougher than either one if you can get them.

My experience is that 2016's are not tougher than 2117's but everyone has their own experiences.

2117 are tough but much too stiff for any bow I shoot.

“1820's are tougher than either one if you can get them.”

1820s are everywhere these days. They’re marked Genesis, and you can get them at just about anyplace that sells basic archery stuff. I think it’s Lancaster that sells inserts for them so you can use whatever points you like.

For a while I thought I had no further use for aluminum and I started using old shafts as targets. I could snap off the thin-walled shafts with almost any hit, but 2117s were noticeably more durable and my old 2018s were damn near indestructible.

And lately , I wish I had them all back!!

Guys -

The bottom line is that anything that will bend a 2016 will bend a 2114 or even a 2117 and vice versa. The same event will usually destroy a carbon.

If one seems more forgiving (without tuning), it's just a better match for the bow. I can tell ya, the 2114 will be a little faster.

Really, the stuff you guys worry about.

Viper out.

Sorry Viper-- not my experience--- i have bent many 2016s, but very few 2117s. It is very rare that I'll break a carbon arrow ( although deer often break them for me).

Like M60gunner stated--- footed carbons are my go to for a very tough arrow.

All of those shards of something or other laying along the archery club paths are carbon. A skibillion pieces in every club you go to, so someone is breaking alot of them. I don't see much advantage to carbon, especially the lack of mass when using standard tips and not fat-fronting them.

You can all be happy with whatever you shoot since we have lots of good choices. That said I wouldn't give you twenty dollars for a barrel full of carbon arrows. ;))) Honestly guys, this is not mystery theater...it's just archery.

And I will help with my little part of mystery theatre. I was out a little bit ago and put as much thought and effort into shooting my 2114s as I did when checking out the 2016 for suitability.....and guess what.....Same same. That was an eye opener. It was me getting a bit lazy in what I was doing. I believe I was simply paying extra attention to what I was doing when trying out the 2016......and it showed. Of course I first looked to equipment....and not perfect me, because it had to be that I was shooting a better arrow...not that I could possibly for the answer. Ha! I was never one to overly complicate things in this sport. To me "tuning" means setting up a pretty quiet bow and getting my fletched arrows flying like darts to my eye and hitting where I'm looking with broadheads. My simple approach has helped in the demise of many critters over the years.

My experince is that there are significant diferences in the durability of various sizes of aluminum shafts.

For instance the 22 and 23 diameter shafts with thin walls aren't particularly durable when compared to other shafts of similar spine, but heavier walls.

A busted aluminum arrow can still be used - to foot carbons. The reverse is not true. ;-)

And we all know how imperative it is that archers of our caliber have absolutely perfectly straight arrows. (wink-wink)

This arrow was one I whittled out of a shoot coming up off of a downed tree. Don't even no the species. I took it back to the cabin and scrapped it down to a somewhat round shape, and carved nocks on both ends using my pocket knife. It you look close it even has knots in it. The feathers I found under a turkey roost and just glued on by hand and cut to somewhat of a shape with a scissors. Glued on a nock and an old broadhead I had laying in my junk box.

I did all of this to prove a point to myself. First night I took it along hunting I had a nice 8 pointer come by and I took him with this arrow. Most of the precision we all strive for is more hype than necessity.

Worry more about your skill and abilities and less about the equipment.

Totally disagree about what will destroy or bend an aluminum will do the same to a carbon. Not even close, foot a carbon and you make the darn near industructable. Shoot the Muzzy shoot sometime in the Catskills of NY. Guys with aluminum may start the day with 2 dozen arrows and end the day with just a few, guys with carbon can start the day with 6 and end the day with at least four if not all six. 1820's are pretty tough for the spine. They would be my choice out of 40# ish bows. Shawn

2016 and 2114 are the same spine, essentually. So the smaller diameter with thicker wall 2016 will be more durable.

As long as one is comparing the same or very similar spined aluminums the thicker wall and smaller diameter will be tougher.

Can't compare a 2016(62# spine) with a 2117(82/83# spine). But a 2216(85# spine) and a 2117(82/83# spine) are very similar so the smaller diameter with thicker wall will be tougher.

1820's spine at 55#. They compare with 1916(53# spine) and 2013(52/53# spine) The 1820 will be much tougher, then the 1916 will be tougher than the 2013.

Now if you really want durable, yet same spine as 2016/2114 then find some 1918's or better yet, 1920's.

Generally thicker wall and smaller diameter will be more durable. There is a very good reason why Easton has discontinued virtually all of the thicker walled, small diameter aluminum's. Yes they are more durable which translates to lesser sales because they last longer.

To make them carbons tough, you need aluminum footing. That's true fo sho. ;) I also use aluminum footing 2312 size to foot my fiberglass arrows and they are every bit as tough as carbon once you do that. Any composite shaft in itself is not that hard to mushroom or break otherwise. You have to foot it...that is the leveling factor.

Wow--- shards littering the archery clubs?! Ive yet to shoot at a club ( and i shoot at a lot of 3d matches) that os littered w shards of broken carbon. Now if i had a nickle for every bent aluminum shaft ive seen in the arrow buckets id have alot of nickels.

Lol, a bent aluminums good as new with a couple minutes on the arrow straightener. I bought a dozen carbons and threw half a dozen in with my 2219s. Spent a full day scouting and stumping. I came home with 1 bent 2219 and all but 1 broken carbons. Few minutes after getting home my bent 2219 was like new straightened to the same tolerance that carbons come new. My carbons were still broken. I'm not going to the trouble of footing and paying more for carbon to try and make them as strong as 2219s come from the factory, especially when the 2219s are a ton cheaper. Carbons may be fine for low weight bows and slow bows, but at 62lbs and a long draw they suck. Just like aluminums fir low weight bow bend easier.

Re-read JusPassin's post above....I believe it is dripping with truth. We really do tend to make things more complicated than they need be. It is more the Indian than it is the arrow.

word of caution not all aluminum are created = the cheaper game getters will bend easyer then the xx75s a softer metal and the x7 after years of use will get fracture lines and cracks as being to hard of metal and always flexing. but if I am not shooting wood it aluminum

I'm with George Stoudt on this one - my club has plenty of carbon shaft remainders in evidence - shards and broken shafts lying around, broken off shafts sticking out of the wooden target frames etc.. One broken carbon shaft sticks out from a target frame about a foot or more. Nasty stuff.

What about a 2114 in Eastons X7 material, that's the same material used to make the old xx78 super slams. So would a 2016 xx75 be as strong as a 2114 easton X7 with a higher grade alluminum? Or would the 2016 with a thicker wall still be more durable.

The 7178 used for the x7 is a higher tensile strength but also possibly a bit more brittle.

I find most of my arrow damage comes from my own foolishness.

DDave

What Dave just said. If your going to shoot hard objects like stumps on purpose except bent or broken arrows. Old guy I knew told me once, “arrows are expendable ammo” .

I am no expert on Aluminum arrows or physics but I believe there is a rule in physics called the ( polar moment of inertia ) that tells us that a larger diameter shaft is more resistant to bending than a smaller diameter shaft of the same mass and same material.

Meaning that if two arrows weight the same amount per inch of length that the one with the larger Diameter would be more resistant to bending.

I know many have answered the O.P. based on real world experience and observations I am just curious if anyone out there has the background to comment on the laws of physics as they apply to this topic or if they apply at all. Thanks for your input.Good Day

All depends on what poundage bow you are shooting them out of and what you hit. I can weaken the spine of an aluminum with a heavier point allowing it to be shot out of lighter draw weight bow. Doing that the arrow is traveling slower and the impact against an object is not as hard "maybe" not bending it, compared to the same shaft traveling at a higher speed hitting the same object. There is no doubt that a thicker wall aluminum is more durable than a thinner walled aluminum in the sense that. The thinner walled such as a 2213 may break or dent when a 2018 which is basically the same spine may bend and be straight- enable. A 2213 is much easier bent, when being pulled from a dense foam target than a 2018, if the person pulling isn't careful, seen that happen multiple times. If it is bent it may be straighten-able but only so many times, if it is dented or broken not so much. The more times an arrow is bent and straighten the aluminum become stretched and weakens. Depending on the quality of the aluminum determines durability. I have impacted trees square on XX75 aluminum no problem. Lower grade aluminum like the old Fall Stalkers, the Green GameGetters, or Easton Eagles I have split the ends or mushroomed them out enough, that I had to cut back them back to get the insert to hold when glued. Those shafts you needed to be real careful pulling from targets no matter what wall thickness, I have had 2219's in those shafts start to bend after 3-4 shots. If you looked at them crooked they'd bend :'). I have bent and broke XX75 2117's, 2219's, and 2317's out of some moderately heavy bows 55-70 pounds. Glancing blows off of trees and impacting rocks does wonders for an arrow shaft. No arrow shaft is impervious to being permanently damaged when an object is hit hard enough. DANNY

If you hit the middle of the deer target you don't have to worry about that stuff

I think babysaph is on to something. Lol

Notice he said "if". ;)

Babysaph is correct of course. It's really eye-opening when you discover that the better you shoot, the straighter your arrows stay. Great googly-moogly, what an epiphany. ;))) Yet bending and breaking arrows will always be a part of archery...but it doesn't have to bankrupt you.

Some of us don't shoot deer targets except at large fun shoots like cloverdale. We hunt and stump shoot so I use arrows that are up to the task and very very seldom bend one. And on that rare occasion it goes on the straightener. It's a combo of wall thickness and shaft diameter that determines strength given the materials the same. A 2419 is much more durable than a 2219. I use a 2419 for smoker rounds and seldom lose due to that durability.

Actually I don't think the OP really cared about any opinions related to the supposed increase durability of varbons. He was asking about the durability of aluminum shafts.

And yes, any time you get wall thickness that starts getting below 16 you have considerably less durable arrow.

I am with George

GLF we have Smoker rounds at our League and Club picnic annually. 2419 die just as easily as any other shaft with a direct hit. One of our guys use them for these shoots. Actually the weakest shaft during those Smoker Rounds are the Carbons. You can get a dent or get a crease on an aluminum, or take a piece out of a wood shaft and shoot it. Nick a Carbon and it is done. Without a doubt during our Smoker Rounds the most durable shaft I have seen is actually wood. A some of my buddies have won the contest with shafts that looked like a Wood Pecker took hold of it. They could short draw the bow and still shoot the shaft to compete and at times win.

For those who don't know what a Smoker Round is, The idea is to shoot and break each others arrows. You are only shooting 3-10 feet in front of the target (that line can be moved up and back each round or kept in place) and the shooting line is about 5 foot wide, you can shoot straight in or anywhere along the 5 foot line for angle shots, or on your knees. You start off with (or at least we do) a circle four inches across, we use brown card board with the circles draw on it, and work down to circle about the size of target holding pin, the ones that are like a aluminum tent stakes with a circle on the end. We have use those pins to shoot at with the final 4-5 shooters and you have to be on the inside to continue. I have seen 4 arrows crammed inside that little circle. After the first round you have to be in or touching the line of the circle. If you are outside the circle you out, the same as you are if your arrow breaks, or is no longer considered safe to shoot. It goes to last man standing. If you can get about 15 or more shooters it is a lot of fun. Who ever shoots first each round drops to the bottom of the list and everyone works their way up to shoot first. Where I shoot we have a mixed club Compound a Trad. 99% of the time a Traditional shooter wins this. It gets real competitive and is a blast to do. If your clubs haven't tried this you should. I think GLF would agree as to how much fun this is. DANNY

For what it’s worth, I think that if as many people were shooting aluminum as carbon, the amount of litter from each variety would be about the same.

This thread has forced me to think these things through a bit…

When it comes to durability, I find that the thicker-walled aluminums tend to mushroom because there is so much weight coming in from behind, while the thinner-walled variety mushrooms because there’s just not that much material there to contain the expansion. At any given spine, the thicker-walled arrows may be more durable because they hit at a lower velocity.

Most of the time, aluminum arrows get bent because they have been flexed just a little too far. Comparing aluminum to aluminum, that is 100% a function of the spine of the arrow. Period. One really big difference, though, is that you can bend carbon to a point where aluminum would be badly damaged and the carbon will snap right back.

Where are the thicker walls do seem to shine is on impacts against the wall of the shower, whether that’s one arrow striking another, or maybe slapping against a twig or limb in flight.

Overall, though… Even the cheapest centerfire ammo I can think of is over a buck a shell; you can be cheaper if you reload, but by comparison to a deer rifle, shooting archery gear is just dirt cheap.

And one more observation based upon extensive experience of the first-hand variety… I have a whole bunch of carbons which I have footed with 2117 aluminum and a glue-in 2117 insert. These are only a fraction as durable as a similarly-footed carbon using a standard glue-in carbon insert. The good news is that after the aluminum breaks off, I can just glue in a carbon insert. But the result is a shorter (by 3/4”), stiffer arrow which now needs a very heavy point.... but THOSE are proving QUITE durable....

Long story short… You might get a little more durability out of the thicker-walled wild shafts, but the difference won’t be overwhelming.

Ok guys....I am the "OP" and what fdp stated above is correct. Just asked a simple question about aluminum arrows. However, I do appreciate the relevant responses.

And by the way if you’re really looking for the absolute ultimate in toughness for an aluminum arrow, I’ve got it for you right here…

Sorry the focus there isn’t great… The top arrow is a black eagle carbon footed with 2117 AND double-footed with a 2314.

Bottom is a 1916+2117+2314. You could go 1918 if you wanted. Just increase the length of the 2117 section ‘til the spine hits your target deflection.

[drops mike, exits stage left]

So, during this whole Carbon v. Aluminum Debate 2.0, the main focus has been on the toughness of our favorite arrows, right?

My question is, why?

Aren't we all supposed to be good archers and good shooters here? Wouldn't needing "tougher arrows" mean that we are hitting things that we shouldn't be hitting anyway?

Why all the "bullet proof arrows?

I understand someone will shoot your arrow once in a while, but that's nock end.

Unless you are hunting Cape Buffalo or Asiatic Buffalo or large rocks, I dont see cause for all the work of footing carbons WITH ALUMINUM SHAFTS.

When I started in archery almost 40 years ago, Easton aluminum was "pretty much" the only game in town, at least for me. I remember it well.

We bent some arrows here and there, learning what we could and couldn't do with them and then XX75's came out and we really shot the heck out of them. I NEVER heard one of my buddies saying "Man, I wish there was an arrow shaft I could shoot angle iron with and it wouldn't bend!"

Point being, we learned to hit the target, not take low-percentage shots, and for Pete's sake, not to worry about it if we did damage one. There were always more arrows just a phone call away.

As was already posted, worry more about you and less about your gear.

I dunno.....

If I were to limit myself only to shots I KNEW I could make without risking an arrow, I’d probably shoot only half as much as I do. And certainly only half as far. Or I’d shoot only the Paper Course and leave the 3Ds alone, except at Gimme distance. I’m 100% OK with torching a few arrows here and there, but when you don’t lose or break anything, you’re shooting for FREE. And that’s 100% OK in my book...

As is getting better at longer range....

GF, once it was nearly all aluminum, on the field ranges...there was no carbon being used, and not much wood. There were no shards of arrows along the trails....bent arrows yes but they could be taken along back to the club house; they didn't blow to smithereens and litter the countryside, so no, there would be no aluminum shards to speak of.

You know I don't have a lot of experience with carbon, but the shards don't lie, unless of course they are spread by hand for aesthetic purposes. I have shot carbons, and I've broken them in stumping so I had no reason to keep at them. My gripe is how light they are, not how durable they are or aren't. As for what the OP asked, well this is the Leatherwall, and tangents are easy targets too. Most of it is just hot air though and doesn't hurt anyone....cept those that get butt hurt.

Guy like I said before it's the combo of diameter and wall thickness that give strength. A 2413 d look sent bend nearly as easy as a 2213. The 2 shafts you mentioned will be almost identical in durability so shoot what flies best.

Yeah Danny at our club shoots almost everyone would ask about the smoker round even before they shot the course.

Not sure what that garbled mess was my spell check put in.

I began bowhunting with wood and MicroFlites. Then used wood and aluminum most of my bowhunting career before using carbons. I still use both alumnum and carbons. I take a judo along anytime I'm hunting and stump shoot when it's practical. Where I hunt three are lots of rocks and the stumps aren't all soft. I don't aim at the rocks but a judo through a leaf will likely catch a rock before it stops. I've broken a lot of wood arrows and bent a lot of aluminums. I've also broken more carbons than I like. Many times the nock will fly out. Sometimes the nock end gets cracked. But most often I'm left with a shorter arrow and no judo or the insert pushed back up the shaft. I've used footed carbons with more success.

As far as aluminums go, I believe a 2114 will bend if it hits grass. OK, not really but they are fragile compared to the thicker wall aluminums. 1916s seem to be the most durable for me. I never thought about 1820s but am giving them considerable thought.

tradmt, If you think I'm so clueless then spend some time and try to educate me instead of just dropping a snarky comment. You're good at belittling folks but not much help.

Personnaly, I like the 2215 and 2315 for my heavier bows when I break down and shoot metal arrows.

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