Hi All,

So I finally pulled the trigger on giving carbon arrow a try.

Based mainly on this board and replies to an earlier post I chose Big Jim's Dark Timbers. I think I drove his staff crazy with all my questions but they did a great job and treated me well.

My bow is a Great Northern Fireball longbow, 62", 60# @ 28 with Brownell TS-1 + sting and my draw is 30 1/4. It is braced to 8" and the current nock point is 5/8" above center.

I am completely new to tuning arrows, sad I know, but true.

I went with full length (32") 340's with a 100g insert and a 300g point. I think I am going to need to trim them down a smidge as the bare shafts group 2 to 3 inches to the left of the fletched shafts at 10 yards. Before you say it...I shoot lefty...so the right left shaft indication inverts.

I am shooting into a bag so I can't read the nock placement on impact well so I decided to try something this afternoon. I filmed myself in slow motion and it appears I am flying nock high. The bare shaft's nock end starts to rise up noticeably about 5 yards out of the bow. Fletchings tame it a good bit, but they are still flying nock high, though to a lesser degree than the bare shafts.

I plan to start raising the nock 1/8th at a time. I do wonder if the slight cant to my shooting form affects the nock high indication.

Being a tuning noob, I'd appreciate any suggestions.

I put a quick video of today's test together. I'll try the embed link through this post's submission form, if that doesn't work, you can view it here: https://youtu.be/_Ap_NqAGy38

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Cheers,

Pete

Instead of trimming how about trying a 250 or 200g tip. Also if you are nock high you should lower the nocking point. Unless the arrow starts nock low then porpoises to nock high.

I think I would try lighter points before I change any nock or brace height settings.

Change/fix one thing at a time.

Yup , play with weight before hacking your shaft in to something you can't use.

First off, let's start with the nock locator on the string. Why do you have it 5/8" above 90 degree's? Do place the arrow above the nock locator, or below? That's really high for carbon arrows. Personally I suggest that yopu place the bottom of the nock of the arrow 1/8" above 90 degrees, and then place the nock locator above or below the arrow, which ever you prefer.

Then before you start cutting arrows, take all the material off the sight window and shoot the fletched and bare together. The bare should show more dramatically weak at this point. Start adding material to the sight window 1/16" at a time (you can use moleskin, thin leather, whatever) until you get the bare and fletched shafts impacting together.

At that point you will be tuned.

Also, and this isn't meant to be derogatory, you can only tune as well and as consistently as you can shoot.

I think Frank has you covered for now...

Take notes on what you do as you go along and note the outcome. Some of the Old Hands here say they can get tuned very nicely in an hour, but it’s not that easy for me, personally. I’m much closer to the Noob end of the spectrum.

You know what they say - measure twice. With carbons maybe 4-5 times!

Thanks for the replys.

A couple of follow ups: - I am considering trimming the shaft as compared to dropping the tip weight because I am trying to keep the arrow heavy. I am a stump shooter / hunter and I have traditionally shot heavy arrows, normally ash shafts that come in around 810g. My brain is used to thier flight chariceristics and as I mainly hunt boar I want a heavy puncher. As configured these cabons are coming in +/- a grain or two around 767.5. At my draw I have .75 inches I can trim and still have a 1" overhang for broadhead cleance.

- Lower the nock not raise it...I TOTALLY had that confused....yikes, my bad! I was mistakenly confusing the riaising of the nock to lower the "impact" point with lowering the nock to lower the nock high flight. The bare shaft impact point is level with the fletched. I do nock under the point and I shoot split finger.

FDP: - I am trying to understand the concept behind your suggetion to strip the striker plate off the side and then build up slowely. Not against it, just trying to understand how that affects the flight. I currently have a thin (worn down) fur piece that mics out at .033 or 33/1000". Are you saying more is better as it will requier a weaker shaft to deflect around it, and that will make up the difference in my bare as compared to fletched shafts? Sorry if I am totally missing the concept here. - Why 5/8? I think I originally set it at 1/2 and it has creaped over past month of daily shooting. 1/2 for no other reason than a common strarting point. - No offence taken on the consitency comment, I totally understand and agree. I am coming back to archery after about a 10 year laps. I have my good consitent tight group days and my not so good days.

-Lowcountry. Yes only one change at a time, thanks.

I will lower the nock point and test that out first. Hopefully that straightens out the nock high flight. Once I get that where I want it, I'll address the weak spine indication.

For those who trim shafts to tune, can I get a guestimate on how much you think I will need to trim to close the 2 to 3 inch impact differnece? And yes if I do trim I will trim in small multiple step.

Thanks again for all the replies. Sorry for the ignorance...

Cheers,

Pete

340(s) way to stiff there boss, try 500(s) , 400 full length maybe. I shoot 400(s) out of my 70lb recurves. Don't add weight to the front of a to-stiff arrow, you would be better off with the proper spine.

treepasser, you MAY be right, or not. But the bottom line is he has to start with the bow set up to accept the maximum static spine requirement, and that is with a bare sight window, and then tune it from there to see what it will do. Anything else is chasing smoke, and is the reason that there are so many threads on here asking for tuning help.

Tuning is maddeningly simple. The easy way is to move the arrow the way you need it to go by increasing or decreasing centershot using the sight window.

You got a lot of good advise. Do change one thing at a time. Nocking point first. Try different weight points to be sure the arrows are weak before cutting. You can't put it back. You are on the right track now. Good luck. >>>>-----> Ken

2 Bears, good point on the trying dirfferent weights to make sure they are weak before cutting. I have been dogged about wanting the 400g I have up front, and will remain so, but I should make sure it is a spine weakness and not something in my form / bow. As you say I can't put length back...I CAN put my heavier points back on :-)

I am very intersted in FDP's sight window process.

Listen to fdp. I'll never understand 400 grain tips but that's just me. That bow would do wonderfully with softer spine and even heads up to 200 grain.

What George just said.

What George said..

I have never had the need for anything heavier than 145 grain tip when tuning.

Back up to about 15 yards. Watch the flight of the arrow.

This is all you need in this video.

https://youtu.be/BSJ6-HjPMTM

BBD. Thinning or removing the strike plate material brings the arrow closer to the center of the bow, which enables /requires more spine. Of course, building it out farther than it is now would require less spine.

Since your arrows are acting weak now, either reducing point weight, as has already been suggested, or building out the sight plate should bring your arrows in line (provided your form is good).

Good luck.

Pete, check your PM's.

to fdp: I'm right, period...

to treepasser, all righty then. You are truly gifted. Since we can't see the arrows in flight, we can't see the release, we can't see the sight window set up, we can't see any of the shooter dynamics involved, nor an number of other things that could affect bareshaft impact.

You can actually see the arrow flight, and some of the releases by watching this video. It shows 6 shots each of the bare shafts and the fletched at 10 yards in slow motion. :-)

Video link: https://youtu.be/_Ap_NqAGy38

You received some good advice on spine and I agree with fdp but I'd like to go back to the nocking point. You said it's 5/8" above and you're planning to raise it based on what you saw on videos. That seems excessive to me unless your bow is way out of tiller.

If the arrows seem to be flying nock high it may well be that they are bouncing off the shelf on release. I'd be interested in hearing what happens if you go the other way - 3/8" to 1/2".

Phil, I was mistakenly thinking I needed to raise the nock. I had it in my mind you raise to bring it down. My mistake was you raise the nock to bring point of impact down NOT a nock high situation. Basically was focused on the wrong end! :-)~

I have adjusted the nock down, and will see how that goes. I'll post an update with results.

“ I'm right, period...”

ROFLMAO... I don’t care WHO ya are!

JMO.... I’d agree that it’s crazy to simply weight up the front of a too-stiff arrow if you’ve got the wrong shaft in the first place.... BUT if the guy wants to shoot carbons and wants to finish out at close to 800 gr, then where’s the harm? The lighter the shaft, the less force it can apply to the insert upon impact, and that can’t help but improve durability. And if a guy likes to Rove, that’s worth contemplating - especially at the cost of carbons.

And for the OP....

Whatever you do, look at your point of impact above all else. And personally, I wouldn’t be trimming arrow length to fix a couple-three inches at 10 yards, but I’d be willing to trim (in VERY small increments) to fix 4”-6” at 20.

And FWIW, always leave some play in the system. If you have you’re brace height where you want it, a bare riser and the heaviest point you want to work with, then where do you go if you’re still too stiff?

So if there’s anything you don’t care to compromise on (I really prefer to have my arrows exactly the “right” length), make sure there is something else that you’re prepared to work with.

Sounds good.

I can't get the link to the video to work.

https://youtu.be/_Ap_NqAGy38

Don't believe you are canting enough to hurt. You are going the wrong way with the nocking point.>>>----> Ken

An update:

First off, thankf for all the advice and your time in replying.

I made two seperate adjustments. For the nock high issue I lowered my nock point quite a bit. I took FDP's advice and nocked an arrow 1/8 above 90 degrees and then placed a string nock just above it. That broght my nock point from 5/8 to 1/4. Bare shafts are flying with much less nock high indicated and fletch shafts seem to be flying straight in.

For spine adjustment (remember I was showing 2 to 3 inches weak in grouping), I added a layer of moleskin to my side plate, then a layer of blue painters tape as it was not sticking well to the calf hair plate on the bow. Crossing my fingers here, but this seems to have solved my spine issue. I freely admint I am not at the top of my form game at the moment so my groups are not as tight, consistent or pretty as they once were. But when you subtract out flyers I ended up with 6 consistent groups of fletched and bare.

I plan to tweak a more perminate adjustment to the plate, and will try to dial in the nock point with a few tiny adjustments but for the most part I am a relatively happy camper.

For anyone intersted I updated the video from yesterday with today's results. The video is a bit cleaner and the slow motion playback shows the arrow fligh pretty well.

You can see the video here: https://youtu.be/vEq5pPaGL0w

Thanks again for all the help and please keep it coming :-)

Couple of thoughts that might make the video a bit more useful to you…

First thing is that it would be great if you could set up the camera more over your arrow so that you can see the side to side movement more clearly. My other thought is that you need some strong lighting overhead in the garage so that the arrow doesn’t disappear in the shadows.

Good luck with it!

You have got it going now. 10 Yards is not near far enough to check bare shaft and fletched grouping. Start easing back to 20, about the min. for tuning. The bare shafts will group out to 50 + yards from a well tuned rig. Good luck. >>>>-----> Ken

Have you considered weight tubes? Really I would lighten tip weight and add weight tubes to get desired arrow weight. Much easier than trying to make the arrow tuned with too much weight up front. 3Rivers sells weight tubes for pretty cheap.

Quick follow up. I've left them full length and have been adjusting the side plate.

I shot my first shoot in 10 years this past weekend. Thank you, Salinas Bowmen. Though I am sure I still need to dial these in a touch more they flew freaking fantastic and more consistently than any set of arrows I have ever owned.

Yardage ranged from 1 to a BIG downhill 90. I'm a happy camper.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Hi All, me again.

I have a follow up question. As my last post stated I've built out my side plate and have the bare shafts grouping with the the fletched.

My fletch shafts are flying great!

I realized from the vids I posted earlier that the nock high and to the left flight of my bare shafts is in line with my bow cant...duh!

So when I shoot with a straight up and down bow I am actually experiencing a nock high flight on the bare shafts with no left component.

I've tried adjusting my nock point both up and down from where I had it with a little bit of success but they still fly nock high.

I do have a heck of a FOC, these are 32" long 340 Dark Timbers with 400g of point and insert. I know, I know, but I specifically want a heavy, high FOC as these are destined to be shot short distances in rough country at boar.

So with my fleched arrows flying level and well, and my barre shafts grouping with fletched but flying nock high in every configuration of nock point I have tried, is it a form issue or possible due to the heavy FOC config of the arrow?

Most importantly does it matter at all since my self limted shot on pig range is 20 yards???

I've been operating under the impression that if I need fletchings to straighten out the flight I am robbing the arrow of efficent force. If that is true, by how much?

Hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving, and thanks in advance for any replies.

Cheers,

Pete

Don't worry about the bare shaft nock high if all shafts group together and the fletched fly well.

Could just be a product of something unique to you (we are all individuals with our own individual traits) and you'll drive yourself nuts worrying about it.

In all likelyhood it will sort itself out.

No worries with the nock a little high,many can't tune it out completely. Feathers are only robbing you of speed if you have a bad flying,wobbling shaft & they have to work hard at straightening out the flight.>>>>------> Ken

This thread has some awesome advice, and I want to point out that the Arrow Savants on Leatherwall and their willingness to share and teach make this place what it is.

Much appreciated guys!

Thanks all!

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