Maybe it was all the Precision Shooting I was trying to do with heavy mass competition Barebow rigs where tying yourself into the bow with finger slings and wrist straps was the order of the day because of the fingers open loose grip recommended and employed by both barebow coaches and top competitors and I guess that works out just swell for those sporting machined metal risers that weigh as much as your average hunting rifle but tonight I relearned that when shooting a vintage wood/glass laminate one piece recurve?...what keeps the bow stable isn't a ton of mass and additional screw-on weights...it's your bow hand...with all four digits wrapped securely around the bows grip.

I grip with “all four” but really only hold the bow with my index and middle fingers. Lance

I believe your on to something. Even my Bear Mag riser doesn’t like a real firm grip. But my wood riser bows like me to wrap my fingers around them. Not overly tight like gripping a Hill style bow but just enough. I do like the grip throat small enough in diameter so I can touch my thumb to my index finger.

Speaking of grips, I changed mine last year. Instead of wrapping my fingers around the grip, I place the tips on the back of the bow. I know it is the opposite of your grip Jinkster, but it works for me and I find it easier to be consistently the same, for each shot.

I read the suggestion somewhere and I'm glad I tried it.

When I grip the bow with the fingers, I torque it to the right on every shot. I have to remind myself not to grip the bow. Most of my bows tend to be made of heavier woods. When I pick up one of my Bears, it feels like half the weight of my every day shooters.

Jinx, you rebel you, flying in the face of popular opinion

I agree with you though.

Wild Bill, I think that's the way Mike Fedora Sr. suggested that a person grip the bow.

I had trouble in the cold weather when shooting my bow with a cotton glue on. The bow wanted to twist in my hand so I wrap electrical tape around the handle, sticky side out. That stopped the twisting. I just remove it at the end of the season.

One thing I often see with new shooters is an open bow hand. As the shooter releases they close their fingers. Now try making that snatching motion repeatable.

I have owned about 80 trad bows, both rh and lh. I have owned maybe 10 compound bows, both rh and lh.

Every single one of those bows required some subtle differences in bowhand feel and position.

I have virtually identical rh and lh compounds both built for me in the last year. I shoot the rh one with 4th and little finger tucked. But I shoot the lefty with all 4 fingers wrapped.

Correct form involves both basics and personal adaptation.

DDave

Fingertips on the bow back was what Mike Fedora taught. He felt full grip makes it too easy to change pressure and torque the bow. As with any real change to be judged accurately, it takes time to adjust. 15 years later, it's still working.

Compounds since about 1990 and Trad since 2009 for me.

And those who know me understand I am a serious student of archery form.

Dr. Jay Kidwell inspired me in a private message here several years ago to try different things.

And here I am with what might best be called classic form, pretty much as Jinkster describes.

DDave

I also disagree. I believe you should not grip the riser.

Not a gripper here, no offense meant to Bill and what works for him. My experience is very opposite.

If you need all four fingers tight the grip of that bow fits you poorly. I've shot too many 'classic' bows that were made for 'other people's hands'. Not mine!

Take a *comfortable* grip, just tight enough to feel that the bow is not going to fly off at the shot. Any more is not needed. (And I always keep my pinky finger curled along side the riser. Helps keep my wrist at the correct angle.)

"One thing I often see with new shooters is an open bow hand. As the shooter releases they close their fingers. Now try making that snatching motion repeatable."

Seen a lot of compound shooters do that same thing.

It might have made a little sense at one time with a wrist sling to shoot with an open hand, but the hand needs to stay open.

We are in a war of semantics here as so often happens. There is a wide range of pressure applied at different places that could all be considered to be "gripping".

I will always grip my hunting bows as I do now, and I never wear a bracer, other than to compress sleeve material.

DDave

Practice tends to make us consistent in all aspects of our shot and release. To suggest that we can have replicable form in drawing, anchoring, sighting, releasing, etc.--but for some reason that our grip pressure will vary wildly from one shot to the next, resulting in torquing--seems silly to me. I'm pretty sure that I grip firmly, and consistently, from one shot to the next. If I'm torquing the bow, it must be happening very consistently--'cause the arrows go where I aim them.

I'm perfectly okay with the folks here agreeing to disagree so no need to apologize as there's no hurt feelings on this end after all?...often times one archers cure is another archers poison but a big part of this "Gripping My Light Wood Lam Vintage Bow" is my understanding and acceptance of...

"Why Gripping It Works For Me"

as follows...

See with a heavy BB rig or even a stabbed out Oly rig with all heir weight and stability?....what are minor release glitches get subdued and forgiven by the mass weight and stability of those sort of bows but when you're talking a vintage wood lam trad bow that's actually only about 1/3rd the mass weight?...minor glitches in the archers release can serve to steer the light bow (held with an open hand) and not only NOT subdue or forgive that subtle release glitch but highly amplify it into what we know as..."Fliers"

I'm also in agreement with the four finger pads on the back of the grip as beinga good thing as opposed to actually wrapping them around the far side inducing torque...all I'm saying is that without the stabilizing weight of other types of bows?...it behooves me to not shoot my light wood vintage bow as though it were as stable as those type of bows. ;)

If one thinks you can't shoot an open hand without grabbing the bow on the shot, then you really haven't given it a proper go. That's how many of us learned to shoot, and it doesn't require a wrist sling. The pressure of the bow draw pulls into your hand at the web area, and all you need to do other than that is put the ring finger and thumb together to keep the bow in your hand.

I've shot that way for a very long time now and it works fine. It may even look like you are gripping it, but you aren't. Now if you can shoot well with a "grip" on the riser, then more power to you. I don't trust myself enough not to torque the riser on the loose. Like Dave mentioned above, we can argue semantics alot here even when we actually do something very similar. If you're consistent, then you are doing it right. For you.

I grip pretty tight to get my best groups. It worked for me form bullseye pistol so i tried it about 20 yrs ago and its worked ever since. You teach yourself not to tourque like you teach yourself to turn your elbow out, to anchor, to release clean, to follow through. Find what works for you and use it and dont slam other people if its just not your style.

That picture above caused me to almost stop shooting a bow. Bend at the knees, lean a little forward, two fingers touching.. After I got done with the Chiropractor, the Psychologist, and buying another dozen arrows, I just started shooting what felt best for me.40 years later I can hit a pie plate at 5 steps...I like all the response on this one, makes me regular again. God bless. Jerry

I like a firm grip...I also find that the design of the grip on a particular bow that "fits"me dramatically improves accuracy. So I'm not above getting Mr. Rasp out to improve things.

Crookedstix convinced me of that...

I think you need to find what fits you and your bow. I have always found that a death grip on the bow gives you bad results more often than its worth. For me and the bow I am currently using, the best has been to point my thumb at the target, wrap my index finger around till it touches my thumb (which also keeps the bow from flying out of my hand) and either curl my other fingers into my hand or lightly touch the bow with them. All the pressure is on the life line of my palm.

Small changes often make for improvements I've always thought because of increased concentration.It might be your answer or with time the flyers may return even with the change.

Bowguy:

"...Won’t argue with your success but odds are against you repeating/not torquing and you’ll def have more issues hitting your forearm."

I have no need to wear an armguard with this bows 8" BH and haven't tagged my forearm with the string yet and I do pay attention to my bowstrings post shot position...not even close. :)

Bill, To me fliers aren't caused by grip. Fliers are more of a result of your mechanics breaking down. Most likely you aren't reaching anchor or slouching. If this grip is working then stick with it and good shooting.

Regards, Grouse

Compounds are easy to see if somebody is torching simply by looking at the distance from the string and cables. Just measure the distance from the string to cables under no tension, then measure once the bow is drawn.

Trad bows are not nearly as easy to detect... If one chooses to "grip" the bow, I suggest holding the grip of the bow as desired. Instead of pulling the string back just hold the bow as if you was shooting. Raise the bow towards the target without using the string hand and see where the string is in relationship to the shelf. The ultimate goal is to have the string to line up perfect with the shelf every time.

This whole topic can get complex pretty quick since torch can come from the string hand, bow hand or both. Basically if the bow is not torched it will be quieter along with more accurate, guaranteed.

As far as placing the finger tips on the front of the grip. IMO, this makes a lot of sense. I actually shot a compound for years using that type of grip. I can't say why I've not tried that style of grip shooting "trad" but I may try it???

I grip the bow similar to the way Asbell does because that's how I learned to do it. Basically just the web of my bow hand touches the bow keeping the rest of my hand from torquing the bow.

I seldom shoot more than three arrows because I find my form goes south quickly. It takes a lot of concentration for me to shoot well and after a few shots my mind starts to wander.

I use a grip like Asbell's too.

It works for me.

" I seldom shoot more than three arrows because I find my form goes south quickly. It takes a lot of concentration for me to shoot well and after a few shots my mind starts to wander. "

I shoot one arrow, retrieve,m then shoot another. No more 'groups'.

My drill starts with a half dozen 'bale' shots at 3 yards. Then I move back to ten yards and shoot until I'm in the spot. Then back to 13 yards, 15, 17 etc. One arrow every time, don't increase distance until I nail it.

This drill gives me confidence at different yardages, and one at a time doesn't strain my ability to focus. When I reach my maximum yardage, usually 21-25 yards, I shoot until I make a 'perfect' shot, then quit. End on a high note. Next time I practice I *know* I shot well my previous time out.

My total session might be 25-30 arrows, sometimes a few more. No rush, no worrying about groups, just one good arrow at a time.

"torquing" not torching, auto-correct got me again :)

50 years ago I was a sling and open hand shooter but over time I decided it was more effort to keep my hand open and that sling was a PITA. I just let my bow hand curl around to its relaxed shape, shooting RH or LH, and it seems to stay put, even if I've got a heavy glove or mitten on my bow hand.

Caughtandhobble nailed it when he said this was a complex subject and several of the posts above prove that point.

For instance, the statement that fliers are more liekely due to mechanics breaking down. Well, your grip or hand placement on the bow is a part of the mechanics of the shot.

Also, the idea that you are more prone to hit your wrist while gripping the bow firmly is incorrect. You are no more or less likely to hit your wrist one way than you are the other. Hitting your wrist is more a matter of alignment/hand placement on the bow then anything else, and you can do it correctly either way.

And different types of grips play into the equation as well.

Jinx has some very valid points. For one, the comparison of a target rig versus a typical hunting bow. There is no questin that the more target oriented bow is going to likely be heavier, making it more solid in the hand, and making it less likely to be affected by the release. Thereby the bow is less likely to move at release. One of the key ingredients to shooting well (and yeah this'll get flamed most likely) is keping the bow in position until after the arrow clears it. A very lightweight bow, and an aggressive dynamic release, using a very loose grip isn't always the right recipe for that.

Everybody has their own way and they always have. Hill was a gripper, Schulz is a gripper, Dougherty wasn't and so it goes.

Bottom line is you need to do what feels comfortable and works well for you, and do it the same way every time.

Outside of that it really doesn't matter much.

I've tried both. The 4 finger grip makes me cam my wrist down and I don't like that. I like to keep my wrist as straight as I can. A 1 finger grip is more comfortable to me. A longbow with a straight grip might be different but not a recurve with a "pistol grip". I don't shoot longbows.

First I'd like to thank all who've participated in this thread for your candid responses and secondly I'd like to point out that I'm fully aware that if your bows grip profile is a non-rounded type that has flat area for your thumbs palm pad?...I fully understand your preference of an open handed grip because that same flat area that gives the open hand grip archer a sense of stability and squaring up of the bow under tension of the draw?...is the same feature that would surely invite the unwanted influence of bow hand torque if the archer were to fully grip their bow because unlike a well rounded grip?...that flat grip would most certainly align itself more to the position and angle of the archers bow hand rather than roll in the archers bow hand a self-centering fashion with respect to the string path while being drawn and I believe it is that attribute of the well rounded grip profile that has caused a recent resurgence in the use of "Ball Grips" in the higher levels of competition.

NY Yankee:

"...The 4 finger grip makes me cam my wrist down and I don't like that..."

We differ there because that very attribute of the 4 finger grip you mention above is what forces my wrist angle to be more consistently positioned as opposed to me consciously jockeying it around where it makes the grip profile somewhat of...

"An Anchor For My Wrist Position/Angle"

I have two 40# bows and both have well rounded grip profiles and since I only tested this ideology with the Pearson Hunter last night?...tonight I tried the light full wrap grip on my Blacktail ande don't get excited...this was just from 12yds...but no unexpected fliers to the left...

What works for ONE, doesn’t work for All. SO do what works for YOU.

I think they put a grip on a bow to do just that..GRIP IT!!! now how tight is experimental.

If using an open hand you wouldn't need much of a grip now would you.

Howard Hill explained it, basically grip it, hold the bow in your hand.

FDP explained it well.

Glad it's working that way for you Jinkster.

and here's the wild part?...when I employed a rather heavy cant?...I didn't get that drift/impact to the right like I've come to expect with a more open handed grip...I might add the bow seemed a touch quieter shooting as well.

Oh...almost forgot...

fdp...thanks for the kind words and acknowledgments. :)

Bill .... interesting thread.

When I was a very young man I was quite a decent fencer (National squad epee )We were drilled by our coaches the classical way to hold the weapon was l'oiseau, french for bird. Hold the bird to tightly and you'll kill it ... hold it too loosly and it'll fly away

Bill I think you've just given the archery community "the bird"

I grip, I torque. Index and middle finger works best for me also.

I love these threads. I'm constantly amazed by learning I have been shooting a bow so wrong for so long. It just never ends Sometimes I wonder how I ever hit anything besides the broad side of a barn. Jeez

Phil:

"...Bill I think you've just given the archery community "the bird"

LOL!...good one Phil and that certainly could be because?....

Tonight I had a thought that told me that if I truly am inducing some sort of "Bow Hand Torque" into the mix by actually gripping my bow grip?...then what better way to prove it to myself than by loosing some bare shaft shots where time and again?...I got clean as a whistle flight by actually gripping my Pearson Hunter 709's grip and then I tried the loose hand grip that yielded good but mixed results and that got me so excited?...I ran in and grabbed my Blacktail and a bare shaft to see if those results would repeat themselves using a 2nd bow and they did repeat...every bare shaft shot while gripping the Blacktails grip flew like bullets where a loose open handed grip?...not so much and these two shots off both bows back too back slammed together on the first go of that...actually gripping the grip...

In taking a good hard look at what was really going on with my personal grip I concluded that the 2nd joint of my bow hand fingers were running square with the back of the grip where it was the 2nd joint of my middle and ring fingers that was squarely stabilizing the bow against my thumbs palm pad like so....

love the blacktail jinkster. for me i think it has more todo with the rotation of my shoulder and elbow than the grip itself. consequently i shoot better with 3 fingers curled under or at least only touching on the tips.. but now that you brought it up in going to have to experiment with it, so thanks for that. lol

Hey, stop flashing that curly maple in front of me.

I will not be lured into ordering a new recurve, three piece design, light and dark wood, riser flair....

Jinkster, for some reason some of your photos are to large while others aren't. Please make sure they are resized.

GGS...you mean this one?...

Sorry Phil...hopefully this is better...

But I know why now. You're sizing them 800x600 but they're 600 wide and 810 long since they're in portrait mode. Try sizing them 640x480.

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