Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


**Choosing a Broadhead**

Messages posted to thread:
Bowmania 12-Aug-19
Tom McCool 12-Aug-19
grizz 12-Aug-19
Nemophilist 12-Aug-19
larryhatfield 12-Aug-19
Babysaph 12-Aug-19
George D. Stout 12-Aug-19
Bugle-up 12-Aug-19
Okiak 12-Aug-19
RymanCat 12-Aug-19
RymanCat 12-Aug-19
fdp 12-Aug-19
RymanCat 12-Aug-19
fdp 12-Aug-19
Tree 12-Aug-19
Caughtandhobble 13-Aug-19
Will tell 13-Aug-19
Bill C 13-Aug-19
Dale Rohrbeck 13-Aug-19
B arthur 13-Aug-19
Bowmania 13-Aug-19
Nemophilist 13-Aug-19
grizz 13-Aug-19
Nemophilist 13-Aug-19
Lowcountry 13-Aug-19
Stealth2 13-Aug-19
Lowcountry 13-Aug-19
grizz 13-Aug-19
Babysaph 13-Aug-19
Caughtandhobble 13-Aug-19
nineworlds9 13-Aug-19
GF 13-Aug-19
Babysaph 13-Aug-19
Gun 13-Aug-19
From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 12-Aug-19




Choosing a Broadhead

If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment. DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I DO IT, DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU. All these form threads are no substitute for a coach. No matter how good any written word is, it can't point and say, “move this here”

If you've been following these threads, you know I'm not normal. I don't own an archery shop or anything like that, yet three times in my life I've purchased a thousand broadheads. They're almost all gone. Plus I've purchased three here and 12 there etc. Don't shoot the brands I purchased a thousand of, although I might if hunting a certain species with a certain setup.

Let me say that I'm not endorsing any broadhead. What good would that do, here. lol. This is strictly what I look for in a broadhead. Anything that can be added will be appreciated.

The first thing I look at is profile. I'll take a good profile over sharpness. If you have a good profile you can make it sharp even if you don't know how to sharpen. (see below) You take a broadhead like a Slick Trick, it can't penetrate better than a dull 3 to1 ratio. The blades are a 1 to 1 ratio, so they border on chopping rather than cutting. Not to mention it's not a cut on contact (COC) head.

Since I mention COC, I'd like to mention a video of Dale Karch of 3 Rivers doing a test of COC and a replaceable blade (it had a point like a 125 Thunderhead and might have been). He put an aluminum arrow with the nock on the floor and a piece of deer hide on a COC broadhead, then pushed the broadhead through the hide. It goes through without much resistance. Then he does the same thing with a replaceable blade and you can see a major bend in the arrow before it punctures the hide.

I'd love to have someone post that. In the back of my mind, I think he does something with a scale to compare the two? It's not even a close comparison. Like the difference between using a knife and a ball point pen.

Choice has a lot to do with what you're hunting. Take turkeys. They're very hard to penetrate, not to mention hard to kill with a very small kill zone. Lucky it's a close shot. If a LW topic comes up concerning broadheads for turkeys, a 160 grain Snuffer is mentioned 2 to 1. With good reason. First of all a 3 blade will cut a bone that a two blade could pass parallel to. Second, it's 1.5 inches wide, making a heck of a hole. And third, well there's no third compared to broken bones and heck of a hole.

Back to profile. The best profile is a 3 to 1 ratio. Pretty hard to argue that, because it's called a mechanical advantage. It's also pretty hard to find in a broadhead. Original Hill comes to mind and last week end some one gave me a head that has to be 3.5 inches long. Actually 3 1/2 X 1 1/16. Hills are 1 inch wide or 1 1/8.

I've never shot either head, but 1 inch wide is a little narrow for my liking. No matter what I'm hunting.

So how important is a 3 to 1 ratio? How much better will a Hill out penetrate a Slick Trick. On a whitetail and a broadside shot, both are going through. On a moose??? I found a Slick Trick in a moose that I shot with 5 inches of carbon attached. The shot was 30 yards and in the sweet spot with a compound the year before. My setup with only 50 pound longbow got 18-20 inches of penetration -60 yd blood trail. A moose is like shooting through 3+ whitetails.

Whitetails are tough, but easy to penetrate compared to a lot of animals, especially a turkey. I still want good penetration on the chance of a less than perfect shot. I'm more comfortable with a big or bigger hole. Bigger diameter is better.

Taking a look at number of blades, I used to say that 2 will always out penetrate 3. Since then I saw a test Rick Barbee did with a 3 vs a 2 and the three out penetrated the two. If I'm not mistaken it was a VPA vs a STOS. I'm not sure one test is enough to change my mind. It did influence me pretty much, I'd like to see another.

Glue on vs screw in. Simple choice here. Screw ins are the weight you buy. Glue on's can be made to weigh almost anything you want. (If you ever had to unglue a brass insert, you'll never use them again.)

Vented or non-vented. Let's just say I don't like vented, but one of the broadheads I shoot is vented. I found a replacement, but Big Jim quit making them. I almost got enough orders to have him make another run. That was the best whitetail broadhead ever made for my purposes.

Single or double bevel. I never shot anything with a single. I played with them and couldn't get them sharp enough for my liking. I don't doubt that they get better penetration, but at what cost? If you go to the 3 Rivers catalog and look at say a Steel Force or a Grizzley Stick head, you'll see a sharpened edge that's twice as wide as a double bevel. That maybe sharper, but it can't be sharper and stronger. In fact, if the sharpened area were equal, the double would be stronger. 'V' shape is stronger than a wedge shape. Now all that could be me justifying not shooting single, because I can't get them sharp, but I never saw a single beveled axe.

Sharpening. I can't sharpen worth a … With a three blade it's about as simple as it gets. Two options a flat stone/file or if you want a better angle an abrasive on a coffee can. Course followed by finer and finally a strop.

For two blades I need a bracket to hold the angle. There are many to choose from and I've tried a number of them. Now, I use a bracket that holds two chainsaw files side by side. I run the blades in between and then use a set of crock sticks held in a “V”. Followed by a strop.

If you try this and you'll thank me. Google 'Knives Plus' and look for their strop. It's green and costs about 25 bucks. I thank you Brian Halstad. Brian is my hunting partner. One day he pulled out that strop and asked to see one of my broadheads. I begrudgingly gave him one, thinking I don't want to insult him and I can resharpen it later. Don't worry, he knows what a jerk I am.

When he was done he gave me the arrow. I looked at the broadhead and was blown away. If my head wasn't so friggin' big, I could have seem my face in the blade. That's not an exaggeration!!! You may ask yourself, did I mean my head or the blade?

What do I shoot? Depends. Let me, AGAIN, mention the tuning bible, www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning. That document was from a couple of different web sites. The broadhead tuning is at the end of the document. The original said in the beginning to find the biggest and baddest broadhead you can find and tune with it. Once tuned you can change to any broadhead you want and as long as it's the same weight it will be tuned. Later the author mentions he used a 160 Snuffer for tuning.

I thought at the time, if he tunes with a Snuffer, why not shoot a Snuffer? So for whitetails, that's what I've been shooting for years. Since it's a wide broadhead, I don't consider it best for larger game than a whitetail with the poundage I'm shooting. For elk, moose sized animals I take off the 160 Snuffer and put on a 160 STOS. And guess what I'm tuned.

So, all that said, the difference between the very best broadhead (I don't know what that is) and something just less than desirable, when shooting a whitetail broadside, is not much. I know two different hunters who, by mistake killed a whitetail with a field point. I don't believer that you can have one broadhead that is the most efficient broadhead for everything from turkeys to whitetails to moose. We have a lot of choices and that can be a double bevel, two edged sword, if a ST and mechanicals are involved.

To reference past subjects search by clicking on key word;

**Stance** **Grip** **Hook** **Body Posture** **Head Position** **KSL Sequence** **Set Position** **Set Up Position** **Anchor** **Transfer to Hold** **Release** **Release 2 (Back Tension) **Release and Aiming** **Rhythm Breathing** **Visualization** **Focus/Concentration-Mind/Mental C** **Focus and Concentration Pt 2** **Tuning** **Tuning PT 2** **Putting it Together** **Practice** **Practice Pt. 2** **Practice Pt. 3** **My Most Important Tip** **A Weak Shot** **String Alignment** **Cause of Target Panic**

From: Tom McCool
Date: 12-Aug-19




I use two bade Bear, Grizzly or Zwicky for deer, bear and turkey. No science for me. I picked them just because the looked the best on my arrows. I keep using them because they kill the critters I shot with them.

From: grizz
Date: 12-Aug-19




Tom x2. Razorheads and Zwicky here. They make dead deer, hogs & elk. Reckon I stumbled on to them in ignorance 50 years ago.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 12-Aug-19




Bear Razorheads, Magnus Classics I and II, and Zwicky Eskimos and Deltas for deer, bear, turkey, hogs, elk, and muledeer for me. They haven't let me down for a little over 50 years.

From: larryhatfield
Date: 12-Aug-19




Ace express since the mid fifties. Elk, deer, bear, and everything else I've killed with a bow all these years. No latest and greatest heads could do any better. There is only one "dead".

From: Babysaph
Date: 12-Aug-19




Lots of good heads. They all kill deer.,

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 12-Aug-19




"Lots of good heads. They all kill deer."

That's true right there. Pick the ones easiest for you to sharpen and you will do just fine. I still like my Bear Razorheads the best but do have some Ace, Ribtek and even soe MA- 3. The best indicator of future performance, is past performance.

From: Bugle-up
Date: 12-Aug-19




"The best indicator of future performance, is past performance."

Good one George.

From: Okiak
Date: 12-Aug-19




Good write up Todd. Lots of good info there.

From: RymanCat
Date: 12-Aug-19




Horse crap totally.

Youngins the pups. Choose a head that you can sharpen if that's the way you want to go but remember the more you sharpen the your head is going to decrease in size and weight. That is if your worried about weight is another fallacy

I personally have a number of varied heads I have preferred and as long as its sharps the results speak for itself. Properly placed arrow the head don't matter if sharp.

Its sad that leftist have infiltrated the site with forced upon opinions that are total fake news.

This is a simple process so keep it simple stupid. REMEMBER THAT AND YOU WILL BE OK.

This game is a game of the mind and grit and wisdom and follow through while you bare down and make the shot.

All else is unnecessary and BS.

Makes me sick!

A killer knows what works and they have for the most part arrowed hundreds of animals, birds and fish and know whether this is horse crap or not.

I should cut this page out on the thread and use in my garden as manure.

Pups you need 2 things to take the prey and that's a sharp head with a properly placed arrow in the battery box or if you clip a sizable artery and they bleed out.

I can't count this high the amount of animals guys say they put a good shot on the animal then you see the pictures and no blood out of the mouth. So you can question the lung shot they said they made? LOL

A good shot kills the animal but so will other shots that wasn't the shot you wanted in the chest to collapse the lungs or in their hearts.

A lot of crap gets forced on others that don't know any better.

What do you think I said enough. Probably no not many have the grit to speak up like this!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but unless we speak out against this fake stuff then you agree with whats being taught!

That is a good one George.

The best predictor of the future is what worked in the past.

This is not this hard others make things!

Knowledge is what you gained from the past and the openness to try new things.

You want to know what a head does then take it out and kill things with it then you will know without any question.

From: RymanCat
Date: 12-Aug-19




Sorry Todd I got a lot of things going on right now this just rubbed me the wrong way. It was like having a burr in your back end of your undershorts. LOL

Plus Tred is bothering me. Brought up old wounds that I didn't bleed out from. LOL

That's what I am saying like minds that are or have been killers know the differences than those who haven't are yet to learn and feel confident in what works.

Because they have tested and found what they like. Sharp heads is a must.

From: fdp
Date: 12-Aug-19




Actually there's lots of good information in Todd's post. In particular whn here just any day we're going to start seeing threads about how folks been shootin' filed points all summer long like "darts" and their bradheads are hitting way off. Also good information related to tuning with broadhead weight. I completely agree with the notion that glue in inserts are worthless. And, there;s good information related to sharpening as well, and to the most efficient broadhead design. 3 to 1 is a more efficient design.

And lastly, Todd has killed a lot of animals with a bow.

From: RymanCat
Date: 12-Aug-19




There's is a difference in lots of animals and hundreds!!!!!!!

The BS has to stop!

When killers talk you know and when others talk you know that as well.

If you have made hundreds of arrows and another made several dozens the guy who has the more experience usually has more understanding and been through more.

Stick bows kills not compound, guns or crossbows !

From: fdp
Date: 12-Aug-19




"Stick bows kills not compound, guns or crossbows !" that statement makes -0- sense.

From: Tree
Date: 12-Aug-19




Cat, your not the only killer on this site and, some of us can actually take game without a bait pile, Todd was saying what he likes in a broadhead that’s it plain and simple. We have to read what you like and dislike all the time and hear about you being a killer, talk about total horse crap !!!!

From: Caughtandhobble
Date: 13-Aug-19




Thumper pretty much nailed my thoughts on the matter.

I'm not a broadhead salesman and I'm not experienced hunting with "Trad Bows" as some. The Simmons Sharks hit like hatchets, the blood trails have been very short for me along with gaping holes.

The biggest problem that I have seen is broadhead tuning. I have personally seen a few fellows shoot super 3D scores only to find when they add broadheads their world turns upside down. I know Todd references the tuning site but I feel it's worth mentioning again.

It is very important to weigh your broadhead along with your field points. In my limited "Trad" experience I have found field point weights to be spot on, not so much with broadheads.

"COC" has taken on a new meaning in Todd's Broadhead Thread. -Cat's Offensive Crap -Cat Offers Critisism -Cat Offers Crap -Cat On Capsules -Cat On Crown Just kiddin Cat, I always enjoy your post. You are a very entertaining individual, LOL.

From: Will tell
Date: 13-Aug-19




As stated above your broadheads are only good if they fly like your field points. It would seem silly to practice all year and have your broadheads fly different . I've used all kinds of broadheads and most of them would do the job. Old Bear heads and Zwickeys fly the best for me.

From: Bill C
Date: 13-Aug-19




Bomania: You sound like a salesman...used cars...the worst kind. I take issue with a lot of what you say. Keep it simple and sharp kills. Make sure your broached arrows shoot straight and are sharp, scary sharp.

From: Dale Rohrbeck
Date: 13-Aug-19




Bill C X2. When I read the opening post instructing me not to comment if I don’t agree, it sets the tone that this topic is not open for discussion. Basically, shut up & listen.

From: B arthur
Date: 13-Aug-19




Bill C., dont read it then. There are plenty here on LW that appreciate the help. Im here because of Gentlemen like Todd that take alot of their time to help others.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Aug-19




Ryman, I don't usually read your posts, but I got a PM on that one. To call me a liberal from that post is totally ignorant, you know nothing about me. From your post here and others I would suggest you're a liberal. You can't take anybody's opinion that doesn't agree with yours. It's what they do on a liberal college campus, protest when a conservative is booked to speak. Can't argue with a conserative, let's shout him down. (let's see if you can argue with a conservative?) I really can't believe you're still here. Your past arrow placement posts should have sent you to the same place OSB was sent. AOC is probably there too and you might learn something from her.

YOU might not know this but TOTAL, means everything. Please give us a disertation on why you are against COC, 3 to 1 ratio, wide broadheads, Snuffers for turkeys, 2 blades on bigger game, glue on. Take special attention on why broadheads should not impact with field point and why the way you tune is better than that. You might want to address why weight of a broadhead is a fallacy.

I look forward to your reply, we can have a point, counter-point discussion. Please don't use any liberal arguements, because they don't hold up.

One last thing, we already know that I've killed more species than you. I know exactly how many species and the number of animls I've killed with a bow. THat holds more water than your "about".

Bowmania

From: Nemophilist
Date: 13-Aug-19




"LOL"

From: grizz
Date: 13-Aug-19




Well Glenn, you started off your post with an accurate description of what was to follow. "Horse Crap Totally ", no need for rude behavior. You can disagree with someone without the simi coherent babble that came from that post.

And since I got started, I'll take a moment to address your KILLER crap you like to spew. I've been hunting big game (deer size and up) for 56 years. In that time, I've killed quite a few animals but I don't call myself a Killer. I merely occupy my proper place in the circle of life as a predator. As I see it, guys who claim to be a "KILLER", are those who kill just for the sake of killing.

So, stay on your meds and breath deep. And get out there behind those high fences and do some killin.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 13-Aug-19




X2 with Dale Rohrbeck.

From: Lowcountry
Date: 13-Aug-19




but, but RymanCat is a KILLER...

From: Stealth2 Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-Aug-19

Stealth2's embedded Photo



160 gr Snuffers for turkey and black bear, 2 blade Zwickeys for deer and any other game, Deadheads for deer and Schulz hunter head for varmints and deer.

From: Lowcountry
Date: 13-Aug-19




I don't believe reading comprehension is one of RymanCat's strong suits.

From: grizz
Date: 13-Aug-19




Lowcountry, that's a gooden! LOL

From: Babysaph
Date: 13-Aug-19




But Simmons doesn't make 125 head

From: Caughtandhobble
Date: 13-Aug-19




Babysaph, they do make a 125 grain broadhead :)

From: nineworlds9
Date: 13-Aug-19




My first kill was with a rusty Razorhead sharpened with a few strokes on each edge with an Accusharp. 53# bow. Worked great.

From: GF
Date: 13-Aug-19




Bottom line: there are those here who believe that their individual experience trumps the collective experience, and there are others who figure that none of us is as smart as ALL of us.

JMO, the trouble with a Killer mindset is the accompanying willingness to get it done sloppily; Todd is trying to help people steer clear of trouble - at least those who are of a mind to prioritize a clean kill over just getting some blood on the ground. I’m good with that.

As for broadheads....

Tuning is the critically overlooked, performance-limiting factor, IMO. It affects your placement AND your penetration, and as important as sharpness is, a head can’t cut what it doesn’t hit and it can’t cut what it can’t get to.

I don’t think 3:1 is necessary on any NA game animal, but the 1:1s are a lost choice when there are so many tried and true heads out there at about 2 or 2.5:1... The Sharks may bend the rules a bit, but I suspect that that design means that when things do take a turn for the worse, it’s a mighty violent one and you can’t count on that ending well.

And heck... if you want Huge, there’s the Ace Super-X at 1 7/16ths. If you think you need to cut wider than that, you should probably revisit the observations on Tuning.

From: Babysaph
Date: 13-Aug-19




Didn't know that. Thanks

From: Gun Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-Aug-19




Good stuff Todd for the most part. I appreciate your effort to educate. I see a lot of new comers into trad that aren’t proficient enough w their equipment. If I shot that bad I wouldn’t hunt. Makes me wonder about their broadheads and sharpening skills. I’ve written short columns for our trad newsletter trying to help these people to think. I’m currently mentoring a new trad hunter.

On another note while I haven’t killed hundreds of animals I am well over a hundred. (8 Moose - 3 Elk) I have had failures w both Snuffers and Stos broadheads. I have always preferred a 3 blade. Currrently I’m using VPA 3 blade and Cutthroats. I had a STOS curl over on a Moose rib and also a follow up (not needed) the shoulder. And yes they were tanto tipped. Maybe a bad batch?

Every once in a while I get a hankering to try a two blade. I’ve never had decent blood trails w them. A few years back I tried some cutthroats and killed a 46” Moose. I was able to just walk along the blood trail on that one. I was impressed.

Anyway thanks for your willingness to share and make people think.





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