Didn't want to tinkle on someone else's thread but 3d courses should show some respect to the shooters.

By that I mean clear the weeds from behind your targets, and if at all possible have them positioned to provide backstops.

Third, make some effort to label the trails and targets so folks who aren't "local" have some idea of where to go next.

Some of the course photos I've seen would be a nightmare to take your kids or grand kids to. You'd be lucky to come out with an arrow in the quiver.

Remember, the whole idea is to provide an experience that encourages repeat business.

There are a few locally that are small and 'tight', with poor targets that need replacement, at least of the 'cores'. The worse one is loaded with poison ivy and apparently nobody there ever heard of 'Roundup'.

I've been on courses where trails were poorly marked or poorly maintained. (Get the dam' ankle rollers off the trail!)

And, yes, make the courses 'shooter friendly' especially to the 'cubs'. Everyone should be challenged a bit, but have a good chance of scoring decently. Frustrated shooters don't stick with it.

Shooters are customers - treat them right.

Good points! I went to one once where someone was lucky not come out with an arrow in THEIR BODY!

It really was scary ... and they didn't take action until finally a few groups on the course banded together and called a 'halt' to the day's shoot, by standing together and not allowing anyone to proceed.

Also, keep target distances in proportion to target size.

You want to put the big targets furthest out, save the closer distances for the smaller targets. Raccoon at 25 yards? Not unless you're setting up a high level formal competition.

There are plenty of other ways to make a target challenging than simply setting it way out there.

16 yard shot, but not a 'gimme' -

Sometimes when I see a target put in the middle of dense under growth I have to think it was out of spite. But then I hear about targets in “hunting conditions “ as the reason. Maybe so but folks don’t like losing arrows or crawling around in God knows what looking for them. Being an active member and officer of a club for many years I was at times the recipient of the complaints about the range, target placement, etc. we also asked our guests if they had suggestions to make the experience more enjoyable. We had/have enough sense to listen to our guests after all the entry fees paid the bills!

In addition to the above, I will never shoot a course that is regulated for competition only. I completed all my life in the classroom, athletic fields, and every single days since to provide for the family. Hunting and traditional archery are family time for us. It is about experiencing time outdoors together for us and not in separate busted groups of strangers. Don’t care about scores. I have won enough things in my life at a point where self promotion was more appropriate. So IBO shoots just do nothing for us. Others still have some need to call themselves competitors, fine with me. But enjoy courses that promote real family and friends over catering to the “label me a competitor” crowd.

Admitedly I don't shoot a lot of 3D, but I've never came across any set up so horribly that I was afraid to shoot...or just didn't want to. There is really no reason to have a dangerous course and they should be told about that.

Some smaller clubs already operate on a shoestring budget and can't be replacing $300.00 foam animals on a regular basis. Frankly I don't know how a lot of them survive, likely it's because they have more than just archery 3D. Archers tend to be demanding but few show up to help in club preparations. Always has been that way.

I would shoot most any course regardless of setup or problems. I just adjust my mind before my bow...just don’t let it bother me.

SAFTEY IS A GAME BREAKER! DANGEROUS WILL BE CONFRONTED!

You can put targets in thick brush, we've done it at my club. BUT we cut a side trail into the target where the there is plenty of space to pull arrows. It is a challenge to shoot, but not to pull arrows, and shots are kept 15yds and under. The ones I hare are unsafe courses. I have seen walking paths come out into shooting lanes. DANNY

I agree with George on this one. And yes I have helped or ran shoots for 25yrs.

The only type shoots I won’t shoot are crowded ones. I’m not waiting 1/2 hr or more swatting deer flies waiting to shoot. I’ll take the smaller ones any day

I appreciate all of the responders to this thread for them NOT naming a specific event....

Setting up a 3D course is A LOT of work. What some people consider a good course, would be a hideous course to another person.

When our little group hosts 3D shoots, both single-day and traditional weekend events, we want folks to have fun. We place shooting stakes where WE think we've presented a fair, or challenging shot. But we also let folks know they may shoot from a closer distance, or from a different angle, if that makes a more "do-able" or "comfortable" shot....AS LONG AS THE SHOOTER KEEPS IT A SAFE SHOT.

On a very rare occasion, we have had a person upset with the course. Since I'm normally the person sitting at the registration table all day, I'm the first person who gets told about things. I simply reach back into the money box, hand them back their registration costs, then apologize to them.

On those few rare occasions, it's funny, though; the Archer has finished the course, then "complained". In watching a lot of "Judge Judy", there's a line she uses, and it goes something like "YOU ATE THE STEAK, AND YOU WANT YOUR MONEY BACK????"

I do know: in the years I've helped set up, run, tear down, help in the kitchen, do flyers, work on trails, clean up food spills, etc. etc. etc., the one or two folks who did complain, and who were given refunds, made their way back to our events at a later time.

One person's bad day, is another person's acceptable day. A "bad" course to yet another, is "the best course I've ever shot" to someone else.

We just try to do our best....

I think it's kind of funny that when targets are placed in brush they are considered "hunting conditions". It's not that I mind shooting through brush. I'll shoot at any target in any situation - arrows are supplies, not equipment. However, in a true hunting situation I wouldn't take a shot through brush. I'd either move or let my game move for a clear shot.

That Bowguy, is why I quit shooting Rhinehart 100's..

I shoot as many 3d events as I can get to, some I drive for hours to get there. I've never seen one that I thought was unsafe. I've seen a few that could be considered border line unsafe if a person took a wild shot and the arrow deflected of course even further, but those were very rare. In all the years of shooting events, about 50 years, I saw only one person get shot. It was while he was hunting an arrow behind the target and the shooter did not know he was there. Some events set up an Iron man type novelty shoot, where all targets are set back in the brush. I love these rounds, the more brush and the harder the shot, the more fun I have. Yes, you can lose or break an arrow, but if you don't want to take that chance , don't shoot that novelty portion. Everyone has things they enjoy and things they dislike, personally, I like the longer shots and the tougher shots but I understand that with kids and newer shooters, most shots need to be easier and closer. Whatever the setup, enjoy the event and be careful.

"Didn't want to tinkle on someone else's thread but 3d courses should show some respect to the shooters. By that I mean clear the weeds from behind your targets, and if at all possible have them positioned to provide backstops."

For me, the fundamental purpose of shooting a 3D course is preparing to hunt with a bow. So the pressure from weedy backgrounds without backstops, and tight shots through openings or from odd positions, is a plus for me and earns my repeat business.

I recognize and respect the fact that some folks have other reasons for shooting them.

There are 3D shoots I attend where they did such a great job of clearing things out?...every foam animal looks like it's stationed at the end of a golf course fairway and you have to look around to remember your in the woods and then?...

Then there's the 3D shoots like the one I just went to in Ocala National Forest as ran by the Traditional Bowhunters of Florida and here's how things go there...

First off it's a "National Forest" so doing a whole bunch of "Clearing" is a bit of a no-no as we aren't really supposed to be disturbing or causing any damage to the natural habitat other than setting out and then bringing in all our targets, stakes and signs.

The 2nd challenge at TBOF/Ocala is the fact that target distance is often dictated by water levels where they get to stretch out shot distances a bit on dry years but then have to get a bit more creative on the wet years when there's more swamp than land.

Some shoots are all about supporting the organizations in return for trophies, plaques and belt buckles while others are pretty much practicing up for hunting while others yet are simple club level fun shoots and I'm willing to attend any and all I can except the ones where I have to wait for something other than my turn to shoot.

Like Harry Carry, I have set, ran, and cleaned up these shoots for around 25 years. People that complain about brush behind targets, or suggest spraying weeds, are people that have not. To setup a shoot, especially a big one, is a daunting task, that runs pretty much the whole year. We start discussing changes, and improvements at the end of the weekend after cleanup, for next year. Trail improvements, building bridges, rocking muddy spots, installing culverts, changing registrations, streamlining awards, food, manning all functions with a small staff, and even ideas onrewarding those few dedicated members. Im guilty of stretching a target for a challenge, but try to use it with big targets( think moose) and as decent a backstop as mother nature provides. Clearing an acre behind every target is just not feasable, and many times, just not allowed. There are very few of these courses that are on anything but borrowed land, destroying the flora and fauna is just not an option. As far as price, you get what you pay for. Any 30+ target course charging $10 a head will not be in bussiness long, or you will be shooting through targets. Most quality targets are $500 investments, several over $2,000. We are contemplating purchasing one now that is closer to $3,000. You wanna shoot a lifesized moose? Expect to pay more than $10. Our own club struggled for years, shooting 2-d targets, or cheap brand 3-d’s that were blems. The only way to progress above that is to charge enough, and reinvest every dime back in to target replacement. To top this all off, you have a crew that works hard, for nothing but maybe, compliments from participants. Anyone that cannot believe this should go out and buy a full set of targets, and go in to bussiness. Should be fun to watch !

We're 'luckier' around here than many because there are several local leagues and on a typical weekend most shooters have a choice of shoots to choose from, within reasonable distance.

But competition also means fewer shooters at any given spot. We do our best to put on a shoot, and I hate to admit it but... it wouldn't kill me is a couple of 'other' clubs dropped out. A few already have, for various reasons that usually translate as 'not enough help for not enough shooters.'

Our club held 3 local-league shoots this year. Attendance was 72, 26 and 23. 121 total at $12 per shooter, except $5 for juniors. Call it $1400 total income for the season.

We could spend more than that on one 'big' target, but that don't keep the lights on. So the new caribou I long for is not happening this year...

That said, we make sure that the course is fun and interesting and safe.

There's actually a good walk-up trail to the right of this -

re HARRY CARRY "I appreciate all of the responders to this thread for them NOT naming a specific event.... "

Harry, I simply 'vote with my feet' and go elsewhere. I have no problem traveling further to a 'better' shoot. I put on some miles this year, traveling to both 'fun' and 'competitive' shoots, and had a blast either way. Next year I hope to put on even more miles.

If you're involved in setting up courses, my hat is off to you. I hope this topic is helping you see from other viewpoints. And I hope to visit your course some day ;-)

Shawn that sounds like the hammer course at the camp Mack shoot here in PA. It’s an aim and pray course. All you here is arrows bouncing off trees and rock. I shot it this year with guys that come up from Maryland. They drive up for the hammer course. Fun, but expensive.

Sorry, but why should they "Remove weeds from behind your targets, and if at all possible have them positioned to provide backstops"?

Having designed, set up and run events on my own with next to no help, I can tell you it is so time consuming that it takes away from time better spent elsewhere.

I also fully understand helping the first time archer, but what about those who have some skill and want a challenge? It is tough decision to make, cater to one and ignore the other.

I like to tell new archers to shoot from whatever stake you feel comfortable from. Newer archers may not be ready to shoot from the Trad stake, so why should they? I understand competition, but how many club shoots are competitions?

Having a back stop on every target, again why? Because one or two people might be new? Personally, I do not like them, it takes away from any "reality" there might be.

Some (not every) shots should have a "penalty" if you miss, like the chance of a broken or lost arrow. If you cannot handle that little extra pressure, how are you going to handle it in a real situation like hunting or a tournament?

I cannot stand wide open "Bowling Alley" shots on every target. A course like that can get boring really fast. I like shots that force you to think, to make a good shot, to shoot a position other than standing straight up, regardless of what is or is not between me and the target. I like (a few, not all) targets where just hitting it is an achievement. Variety.

Not saying every shot should be like that. But again, every shot should not be wide open, with nothing between me and the target. If I wanted that, I would do Field Archery.

At my home course we've hosted trad-only shoots, local league shoots and IBO shoots, it's all a job of work! I suspect that what hurts us is the 'casual' shooter/hunter who has no interest in joining a club and helping, who buys a couple cheap 'back yard' targets and just wants to be dialed in 'good enough' for hunting season. I've sort of decided that we need to gear our shoots to the folks who *love* 3D shooting, and give them a shoot to remember. If a few clubs drop out for lack of shooters, that sucks, *but* we are competing for shooters here.

Where do you go for a good hamburger? Where do you drive right past? Same concept.

I haven't encountered a 3D course yet that I wouldn't shoot. The only deal breaker for me would be a safety issue.

I'm fortunate here in Southwestern PA to have at least one shoot to attend every weekend if I wanted. A lot of times they are mixed shoots with compound shooters and that's ok with me. I've had the pleasure of shooting the course HARRY CARRY and his crew put on and it's top notch.

I don't care about cleared out targets or backstops or rocks, if I loose or break an arrow it's because I missed not the fault of the people setting up the course. If I was worried about big back stops or cleared targets, I'd only shoot in my yard.

Nothing beats a walk through the woods shooting my bow with good friends.

A natural hunting shot doesn't have the weeds cleared behind the target. The object is tdo learn to hit the target so you don't have to encounter the brambles behind the spot. If you're continually losing arrows at shots 30 yards and under, maybe that intinctive thing isn't working well for you.

George, clearing behind the target is one of the little 'tricks' a course setter can use to make judgeing distances harder. Same goes for hiding the feet of the target. All part of messing with the shooters' perspective. ;-)

(Not saying that shooting in the woods is easier!)

One of our local shoots, most of the targets are setup on the edge of the club lake. You miss, your arrow is gone. Makes you focus for sure. I have only managed to loose one arrow that I remember out there. Skipped off the back of a lynx target. Works out pretty good actually, you don't have to wait for a bunch of yahoo's stomping around looking for lost arrows.

There only been one course I refused to go back to. About 15 yrs ago this shoot had a couple of dangerous shots. We brought it to their attention two months in a row. After the second time the fellow running the shoot told me it was a “pain in the ass” to make every shot safe. Never went back and they only lasted a year. What really tops it off is he was a deputy sheriff.

Most setups are a thankless job and clubs can't get the help now and now we are dictating how we want the courses groomed and set up. Some things are in reason but some things are not and maybe you don't shoot a certain target/ That's what I have done. hec's with that target didn't think I could make it.

Hunting situations aren't groomed. There's the target hit it so why not? Oh it's not groomed so it sucks?

Primadonos can stay home!

Arrow in the bears ass that's about par for public land hunts.

Animals running around with WI-Fi receptions. LOL

Any 3D course can become dangerous. I used to shoot a lot of 3D and avoid shooting after heavy rains and if there is snow or ice. The place I shoot is open all year long so weather can make things dangerous. Your walking in the woods and on trails going up and down, a little common sense is all you need. I don't shoot 3D to keep score so I don't lose a lot of arrows, I move up on targets without a backstop and take shots that I'd take if I was hunting. When I'm shooting a self bow I keep my shots 20 yards and under. If I'm shooting a Recurve or longbow I still keep my shots under 25 yards. I only keep tract of kill shots and a body hit is a miss. I'm not happy unless I'm making 80% kill shots. A lot of the shots I'd consider to be a perfect kill shot isn't even close to the ten ring.

My club has an indoor 3-D shoot at our indoor archery range one night every week. The guys have the targets set up around discarded artificial Christmas trees, longest shot 20 yds.

All for fun, no competition, but probably some good natured wagering on the side. $5 each shoot which covers the homemade stews, etc. for the 1/2 hr. feast before shooting starts.

Because of work etc. I haven't participated yet but will eventually especially during the winter months.

If your competing the targets are irrelevant as long as everyone is shooting the same presentation.

If your not competing the targets are irrelevant cause you can shoot them from wherever you want (that's safe).

So in the big picture.....it just don't matter.

When it says “no binoculars”. I can never understand that one.

I didn't 'believe' in using binoculars until I tried it. Like the Monkees sang, "I'm a believer!" ;-)

Turn offs for me: shotgun starts, 2 people keeping scores in a group, no friends groups. That shoot is way too serious for me. I don't keep score unless it's a friends' friendly competition on who's buying lunch. I don't mind trying to shoot between trees or brush. It's challenging as long as it's safe. I enjoy shooting in a group but at times I have shot alone due to timing. Several clubs let me do that. If the shot scenero has several targets(ex: moose and 2wolves) and the club allows me to shoot at all 3, I'm happy.

i feel that courses should be set so the walk from target to target, and from shooting stake to target is as safe as possible. The targets can be in the woods, among trees and brush, but the archer should not have to climb cliffs, climb over rocks, under and over fallen trees, slide down ridges to get to the targets. most of the folks I see at shoots are "mature" adults with various knee replacements, hip and back ailments, heart ailments, etc. I am not saying put it all flat, but think about the safety of these "mature" folks. I fell twice at a shoot this July and heard of many folks falling because of the rocks and trees we had to climb over.

I would love for my disabled son to shoot a course, but they are never handicapped accessible in any way.

Binoculars are one reason the trad only shoots came about. Shooters would over use their binos or use the focus as a range finder. This would cause backups and frustrates the archers waiting.

Most of you know who have run shoots at clubs, unless you run a huge shoot like Cloverdale and the like, you don't make a lot of money in the end even if you charge $15/shooter. For my club Land Taxes, utilities, general up keep and maintenance cost, Targets ( these cost are outrageous) and core replacements, shoot attendance is down at least in our area. Basically Club Shoots aren't making a lot of money for those complaining about shoot cost.

When I was president of our club I went by the old saying "You can please most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." Some people demand Bowling Alley shots, some want shoot through obstacles challenging shots, some want them close, and some want a longer challenging shots. All you can do is mix them all up and make the shoot interesting and something for everyone. Just remember there are those who you can never please. Getting help setting a course is ALWAYS an issue the more people you have to help set it the better the coarse is set. If you don't have a lot of help, especially when you only have 2-4 people putting out and setting 30 targets, you get what you get at a shoot. As long as the shots are safe, THAT is the only thing you really need to worry about. DANNY

Last week I shot a local course with a friend (local for him, I drove an hour). It was a hot, humid, sweaty ordeal. Most of the shots were up or down hill.

Toward the end we were beat and just skipped the steep uphill brushy targets. We were there to have fun, not to see if we could survive.

No shame in walking past a target.

Moving targets to me have no place on a scoring course. On a novelty course okay. But when you are promoting ethical hunting moving targets are a no no. I am talking about targets that haul ass on Saturday and crawl at snails pace on Sunday. Also the kill zone should be clear. There is nothing ethical about shooting through brush or vines to hit the kill zone. I have seen too many times how the course changes from Saturday morning to Sunday afternoon. Because trash that was there early Saturday has been move by Sunday afternoon. Just my opinion.

Etics is taking only a good clean killing shot on game. A good 3D course should reflect that philosophy.

'Challenging' shots should still be make-able if the archer has some skill.

This was a fairly 'tough' shot, but do-able. (Shooting positions were a bit right of the walking trail.)

There is a big difference between shooting foam and shooting live animals. Taking a tough shot between limbs at foam is ethical, doing the same on an animal is not. But, shooting between limbs can teach a person to concentrate on the target and not the obstructions. Not everyone who shoots 3Ds is a hunter. Eliminating the "tweeners" just because you would not take that shot hunting would eliminate a lot of fun for some. Let's not expect clubs to set up events for hunters only. "the tough shots can teach a hunter what shots not to take while hunting. 3Ds are for fun and practice, enjoy the shooting and your friends.

A course can be a hunters course A course can be a targets course A course can be a skill course A course can be a mix of all of them

A course can be many things and hunting is only one aspect of it.

If it was about hunting, then we would have to do away with those 30 plus yard shots and limit them to 20 and under.

"but the archer should not have to climb cliffs, climb over rocks, under and over fallen trees, slide down ridges to get to the targets. most of the folks I see at shoots are "mature" adults with various knee replacements, hip and back ailments, heart ailments, etc. I am not saying put it all flat, but think about the safety of these "mature" folks. I fell twice at a shoot this July and heard of many folks falling because of the rocks and trees we had to climb over.'

Good point, IMHO.

I didn't used to be, but now I'm an "older guy" with a bad knee and I know 1st hand about this.

Even 20 years ago, the club where I used to be active in organising shoots had some tree stand shots, but they made sure there was safe stair access with hand rails. The land is flat, here, and it was a way of mixing up the shots a bit w/o causing difficulties.

Of course, it takes some dedicated volunteers to set that sort of thing up.

DanaC,

Tough shots at 3D shoots, as the one you show, are shots some to many will take at live animals in the woods. The Ohio Bowhunters Association requires the whole kill zone be open when the target is set at 3D shoots. Kill zone, is the space of the entire circumference of the 8ring. So you can bring obstacles as close to the line as you want, but the line and in it HAS to be open The one thing these shot set ups "Should" teach the shooter, is if you can't make these kind of shots on a 3D animal, you shouldn't take it on a live animal. It's amazing to me people who are so worried about breaking or losing an arrow on a 3D coarse with these types of shots and complaining about them, but are willing to attempt these shots in the woods because they have an open hole to the vitals of the animal and believe they can make it. Better to learn what you can and can't do on a 3D target than on a live animal. As for target shooters, I've had those who shoot regularly in the 280-300 range whine about these shots because they are intimidated threading it through the whole, while wearing their sponsors shirts. If you shoot that kind of score regularly as a target shooter WHY do you have a problem? Yes I am talking compound shooters with that comment, our club is a mixed club. Should all shots be set this way NO same as, all shots shouldn't be set up for the longest range allowable either. You have new, young, and old shooters all thrown in to the mix at every shoot. You want the 3D shoot set up, to be fun but challenging, it really is a fine line to be able to do that when setting up target sites. We have IBO shooters come to our club to shoot for our open shoots. We have had some of them complain our shots sets are to short and easy. Don't let me know that when I set a course and shooting stakes. The IBO stake which has a Max range of 50yds. The Bowhunter Max 40yds, Traditional Max 30yds, and kids way short, I will be nice to them for the most part, so they have fun. There are times when shooting a coarse "I" set up, grumbling: WHO, picked this shot? DANNY

I drove out to a 3d event, my wife could not shoot that much at that time, but offered to walk along with me. We got there about noon. It was hot and muggy, my body does not regulate properly with hot conditions. A young couple walked by with white T-shirts, they were hot and sweaty and charging to the concession for food and fluids. They both had numerous ticks walking on them. My wife sat on a bench in the shade along the walkway to the concession, she had a tick on her from the bench. Must have been transported by another person. I couldn't get back to my car fast enough.

Linecutter, as I said, the stakes were to the right of the walking path in, and the entire 8-ring of the elk was indeed available. (As specified in IBO rules.)

I have no problem with blocking part of the non-vital areas of as target.

Sure, we all have days where 'foam is good!" is the rule but I've long questioned the 'wisdom' of awarding 5 points for any body hit. But try to get anyone - especially trad shooters - to agree to 11-10-8-0 scoring! The screams...

The 3d courses I avoid are shoots with all close shots. I have seen courses with all shots between 12-17 yards. For a gap shooter, these can be challenging, if you are shooting at rock rascal targets. I want some close shots at small targets, and some longer shots, say 25 yards for some larger targets. Mix it up. If the shots are too long for you; move up.

Some thoughts from an old worker bee:

It won't kill you to skip a target you don't like.

Carry a "Mary Jane" arrow for the risky shots.

Try to have a younger, stronger shooter in the group to get arrows.

Stop whining and have fun.

DanaC- to combat the 5 point "award" for a non-vital hit, as well as letting shooters choose where they would like to shoot from, we've started doing 1 or 2 "pick your poison" shoots a year. Set the 5 stakes normally but instead of scoring rings dictating the point value the stake does. For example we have 5 stakes out, the longest is worth 15 points, next is 12, then 10, 8, 5. Hits inside of the vital 8 ring are positive points dictated by whichever stake you choose to shoot from. Hits outside the vital 8 ring are the same points, but negative. Misses are 0. A shoot of this type will make a guy walk the talk and really show you where your accuracy and confidence lie.

I am currently recovering from hand surgery on my string hand after a freak accident with a knife, no shooting for 3 months! I have ZERO sympathy for the mewling complaints about various shoots. Id be happy to lose a dozen arrows on one ironman target right now.

I like it!

I have never been to a 3D shoot I didn’t like. Some are better than others, but I really enjoy shooting them. There aren’t many around close anymore so I end up traveling 3 - 6 hours several times a year. Personally I really like the difficult shots. I may or may not make the shot, but either way it’s fun. If I break an arrow I’ll just make more. No worse than squirrel hunting.

On the same note Kat if you don’t like shorter shots move back.

I attended a very popular huge shoot. It was the worst one I ever attended. Moblike crowds, tent pegs overlapping, standing room only, and everything costed a mint. After about 20 vendors, its just redundancy and more to have to look through, like 300 cable channels.Mediocre targets that were cheap to begin with, and shot to hell. Said I would never go back, yet after 3 years suggested to a froend we make the 10 hour one way journey back. So the worst one ever, and i still want to go. So, no, never went to a shoot that i wont go back.

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