Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


**Cause of Target Panic**

Messages posted to thread:
Bowmania 05-Aug-19
Draven 05-Aug-19
RymanCat 05-Aug-19
gluetrap 05-Aug-19
Knuckleball 05-Aug-19
old buck 05-Aug-19
old buck 05-Aug-19
sake3 05-Aug-19
Phil 05-Aug-19
shooter 05-Aug-19
Sarge 05-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 05-Aug-19
Babysaph 05-Aug-19
GLF 05-Aug-19
GLF 05-Aug-19
2 bears 05-Aug-19
Phil 05-Aug-19
RymanCat 05-Aug-19
GLF 05-Aug-19
Live2hunt 05-Aug-19
Phil 05-Aug-19
lamb 05-Aug-19
Draven 05-Aug-19
dean 05-Aug-19
JRW 05-Aug-19
Draven 05-Aug-19
Sarge 05-Aug-19
Tom McCool 05-Aug-19
sake3 05-Aug-19
Sarge 05-Aug-19
dean 05-Aug-19
shooter 05-Aug-19
Maximum Max 05-Aug-19
Tree 05-Aug-19
Sarge 05-Aug-19
Tree 05-Aug-19
Hico 06-Aug-19
DanaC 06-Aug-19
thehun 06-Aug-19
Bowmania 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
RymanCat 06-Aug-19
RymanCat 06-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 06-Aug-19
Will tell 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
fdp 06-Aug-19
GLF 06-Aug-19
Smokedinpa 06-Aug-19
Draven 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
Draven 06-Aug-19
Draven 06-Aug-19
DarrinG 06-Aug-19
Nemophilist 06-Aug-19
dean 06-Aug-19
Simple Man 06-Aug-19
George D. Stout 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
GLF 06-Aug-19
GLF 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
Draven 06-Aug-19
dean 06-Aug-19
Jon Simoneau 06-Aug-19
Jon Simoneau 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
DanaC 06-Aug-19
Draven 06-Aug-19
JRW 06-Aug-19
Sarge 06-Aug-19
Phil 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
dean 06-Aug-19
Sarge 06-Aug-19
Sarge 06-Aug-19
Babysaph 06-Aug-19
Bowmania 06-Aug-19
Bowmania 06-Aug-19
Homey88 06-Aug-19
Draven 06-Aug-19
Maximum Max 06-Aug-19
Bowmania 06-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 06-Aug-19
GLF 06-Aug-19
Sarge 06-Aug-19
Phil 07-Aug-19
BC173 07-Aug-19
Tom McCool 07-Aug-19
NY Yankee 07-Aug-19
B arthur 07-Aug-19
AspirinBuster 07-Aug-19
AspirinBuster 07-Aug-19
Sarge 07-Aug-19
Sarge 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 07-Aug-19
Draven 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 07-Aug-19
dean 07-Aug-19
DanaC 07-Aug-19
AspirinBuster 07-Aug-19
dean 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 07-Aug-19
dean 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 07-Aug-19
Babysaph 08-Aug-19
dean 08-Aug-19
lost run 08-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 08-Aug-19
Sarge 08-Aug-19
Sarge 08-Aug-19
Babysaph 08-Aug-19
DanaC 08-Aug-19
Babysaph 08-Aug-19
Sarge 08-Aug-19
BenMaher 08-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 08-Aug-19
Sarge 08-Aug-19
DanaC 08-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 08-Aug-19
Sarge 08-Aug-19
DanaC 09-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 09-Aug-19
DanaC 09-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 09-Aug-19
DanaC 09-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 09-Aug-19
DanaC 09-Aug-19
JRW 09-Aug-19
DanaC 09-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 09-Aug-19
Sarge 09-Aug-19
Missouribreaks 09-Aug-19
JRW 09-Aug-19
Sarge 09-Aug-19
fdp 09-Aug-19
David A. 10-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 10-Aug-19
Sarge 10-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 10-Aug-19
fdp 10-Aug-19
Sarge 10-Aug-19
Grizzly 10-Aug-19
Grizzly 10-Aug-19
DanaC 10-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 10-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 10-Aug-19
Sarge 10-Aug-19
lost run 10-Aug-19
Grizzly 10-Aug-19
fdp 10-Aug-19
Grizzly 11-Aug-19
dean 11-Aug-19
twostrings 11-Aug-19
Babysaph 11-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 11-Aug-19
GLF 11-Aug-19
Jinkster 11-Aug-19
Will tell 11-Aug-19
sake3 11-Aug-19
Sarge 11-Aug-19
old buck 11-Aug-19
David A. 11-Aug-19
Phil 11-Aug-19
DanaC 11-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 11-Aug-19
David A. 12-Aug-19
zetabow 12-Aug-19
Phil 12-Aug-19
B arthur 12-Aug-19
David A. 12-Aug-19
Phil 12-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
zetabow 12-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
JRW 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
Will tell 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
George D. Stout 12-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
Andy Man 12-Aug-19
Andy Man 12-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 12-Aug-19
Grizzly 12-Aug-19
Andy Man 12-Aug-19
southernillinois 12-Aug-19
Draven 12-Aug-19
David A. 13-Aug-19
David A. 13-Aug-19
David A. 13-Aug-19
1buckurout 13-Aug-19
Babysaph 13-Aug-19
K Cummings 13-Aug-19
Live2hunt 13-Aug-19
dean 13-Aug-19
Babysaph 13-Aug-19
badgerman 13-Aug-19
Elderly OCR 13-Aug-19
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babysaph 13-Aug-19
David McLendon 13-Aug-19
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AspirinBuster 14-Aug-19
David A. 14-Aug-19
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dean 14-Aug-19
From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Aug-19




Cause of Target Panic

If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment. DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I DO IT, DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU. All these form threads are no substitute for a coach. No matter how good any written word is, it can't point and say, “move this here”.

I think there's one cause. I don't really want to address this from the brain working with a conscious, subconscious, and a self-image. The way those react together is the cause, but we do things physically that make us more prone to TP If there is questions in that directions I'll address it. Anyone who's had it knows that if there's anything that you can do to avoid it, it should be avoided at all costs. It has taken the fun out of archery for some and even made some leave the sport. I want to address it from a form/shooting stand point. Like if you use this 'stance' you're going to come down with it.

We have a lot of 'grip and rip' crowd here. I used to shoot that way and I got it. We're all looking for a gap. Even if you're instinctive, you might call it a sight picture, but to get elevation on the shot at 10 has to be different that 17.3. Call it what you will. So here's how your shot goes. Draw, aim, release. I don't care how that aiming process goes or what you want to call it. Somehow or someway you 'get on target' and your brain goes in one tenth of one tenth of a second, 'that's it release'. That my friends is where TP comes from. May take a year may take 20, but you're going to get it.

When you put that much pressure on that split second you're looking for trouble. In a past thread, I made a derogatory comment on the swing draw. Some one asked what was wrong with the swing draw and I didn't answer, because that discussion would have been off target. It's been bugging me. So here's the scoop added to the above mentioned split second. The swing draw adds timing into the mix. So what it encourages you to do is reach full draw and at the same time acquire that sight picture or gap or what ever you want to call it AND release at the same time. (I won't mention short drawing.) Now, in that one tenth of one tenth of a second, your brain goes full draw on target release. More pressure. End up left of target and you move right, miss right. Do that 10 times, 50 times, 100 times and all of a sudden you can't get on target.

Ever wonder why the instinctive guys say they're not very good at distance? Well, if you're shooting 40 yards, it's a little more critical to fine tune your aiming than a 17.3. Even at 25 it's more critical. That fine tuning takes time and when you're timing things to come together – more pressure!!!!!!!!!!!! THREE THINGS AT ONE TIME!!!

What if we spread that pressure out. Better yet, what if we didn't know when we were going to release.

Why do rifle shooters shoot the way they do? Acquire the target and squeeze the trigger. I don't care. I don't shoot guns, but maybe we can learn something from them though. Do they know when the hammer is going to fall? I don't know how many times I've said it on the LW, there's no such thing as a release and follow through. They're reactions to actions before which make a solid shot. You should not know when you're going to react to an action.

Let's look at a clicker, because that's how we should shoot. With the grip and rip, you're telling yourself to shoot. With a clicker it tells you to shoot. That's probably the reason they work for curing TP. The very act of the shooting the clicker spreads out the pressure. You aim and once it looks good you pull a little further to make the clicker go off. Does that sound a little like squeezing the trigger? It's only 2 mm, but it's not the exact second you get on target.

Keep in mind that one second is a different length of time when your gripping and hooking the string, compared to the one second at anchor. If you're gripping and ripping, you can't wait until release. If you're making the clicker go off it's squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezing the trigger – spread out pressure.

So if you went back to threads on **Release** or maybe **Release 2 (Back Tension)** you'd find one of my original thoughts/ideas. If you want to practice a release to learn when, try this drill. You don't shoot. Draw to transfer/alignment and then keep drawing until you know that you've drawn too far and couldn't release without hurting something on you face. You have to release AFTER transfer and BEFORE too far. If it's 2 mm to get the clicker to go off, too far is maybe only 3 mm – not very far.. Once you learn the distance the thought process on the release changes. It goes transfer (bone on bone) aim, expand......and then somewhere between AFTER and BEFORE the arrow is gone while still aiming. Release has been taken out of the equation and so has the pressure of releasing.

(Keep in mind that the above is for practice. A hunting shot doesn't come very often. We don't get TP from the infrequency of a hunting shot. I want to do another thread on the '5 second shot' addressing this. Hope I remember.)

To reference past subjects search by clicking on key word;

**Stance** **Grip** **Hook** **Body Posture** **Head Position** **KSL Sequence** **Set Position** **Set Up Position** **Anchor** **Transfer to Hold** **Release** **Release 2 (Back Tension) **Release and Aiming** **Rhythm Breathing** **Visualization** **Focus/Concentration-Mind/Mental C** **Focus and Concentration Pt 2** **Tuning** **Tuning PT 2** **Putting it Together** **Practice** **Practice Pt. 2** **Practice Pt. 3** **My Most Important Tip** **A Weak Shot** **String Alignment**

From: Draven
Date: 05-Aug-19




Not knowing to prioritize things while learning and ignoring what you learnt while competing/hunting is the source of TP imo. The brain processing speed while executing them is not an issue, no matter how someone wants to paint a shooting style.

From: RymanCat
Date: 05-Aug-19




Only cause is what's in your head and the 2nd is being over bowed!!!!!!!

Not novel books like is written that's enough to give everyone TP. Sad Todd that you waste so much time on things like this when its totally unnecessary.

Keep it simple stupid something everyone needs to learn.

Supposed to be fun but if you have to read all this nonsense then you deserve TP. Think about that for awhile and let that sink in.

The less you have to think about the more you can concentrate on baring down and making the shot!!!!!!!!!

From: gluetrap
Date: 05-Aug-19




target panic is not being in control at the shot, for whatever reason and there are several. weed em out!! :)

From: Knuckleball
Date: 05-Aug-19




Thank You for posting this. I always enjoying reading these. I've gotten better with TP. I really think a clicker is in the near future. Since I started shooting 3D with a group of people it has made me follow my shot process more to avoid TP. Putting myself in pressure with other shooters to get used to it has helped.

Thanks Again,

James

From: old buck Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 05-Aug-19




Sometimes when I shoot I release quickly...sometimes not for several seconds. But I've never felt "PANIC" during the process. Some say "let down the draw" if you can't release quickly. Most of the time the arrow goes right where I wanted if I don't rush it. I think it's called relaxing or staying relaxed. My practice is relevant to hunting where that dang deer doesn't always cooperate when approaching full draw and turns and looks right at you. Now THAT could cause panic if you don't prepare and practice with those tings in mind. For me anyway.

From: old buck Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 05-Aug-19




Sometimes when I shoot I release quickly...sometimes not for several seconds. But I've never felt "PANIC" during the process. Some say "let down the draw" if you can't release quickly. Most of the time the arrow goes right where I wanted if I don't rush it. I think it's called relaxing or staying relaxed. My practice is relevant to hunting where that dang deer doesn't always cooperate when approaching full draw and turns and looks right at you. Now THAT could cause panic if you don't prepare and practice with those tings in mind. For me anyway.

Always good info bowmania. I read them all. Thanks for taking the time to write them up for us.

From: sake3
Date: 05-Aug-19




Sorry but i'm obtuse,stupid and simple minded.There are numerous definitions of target panic.Some people attribute most problemsin aiming or hitting the target to TP. Others attribute most form problems to TP.The broader the definition the more varied the reasons and solutions to the "TP" problem.Since the word target is in there,i usually think that the panic or error involves being preoccupied with hitting the target.For some it might be rushing to hit the target-so i release before reaching a stable anchor point.For others it is the inability to release anxiety about hitting the target.So then the shot can't be properly completed.We've all heard contest commentators mention he/she is holding too long.///////But there are other causes that are temporary target panic-like speed shooting or hitting a moving target in hunting or shooting practice.////The fact that there is a target to hit overwelms the need to execute the shot properly- using proper form and aiming to the best of your ability.If you shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds and that's your intention- then your process is slightly modified by the "need for speed".If you have 30 seconds for one shot then your form and aiming need tobe at your maximum capability.So the pressure of winning a contest or winning a prize can advervsly affect your shooting.(There are reems of pages written on tournament pressure.Is that "target panic"?~~~~~~depends on your definition.In my very distorted opinion when the presence of a target to hit (Usually/often part of archery) creates habits that abandon parts of the shot that as Bowmania and others have pointed out are necessary that is the target panic"to which i relate. There are plenty of other habits and errors that help me to miss.~~~~~there are archery gremblins but TP is a real demon.

From: Phil
Date: 05-Aug-19




Bowmania ... did you say you were a coach? If you are is this the stuff you're teaching?

From: shooter
Date: 05-Aug-19




TP has a lot of phases but gluetrap is right. It is a total lack of control of the shot process that begins slowly but progresses quickly as the archer becomes increasingly frustrated & loses all confidence. Having been a decent athlete all my life TP was very tough on me.

Another member of LW has taken the time to work with me to rid myself of TP. His method is a slow but for me has been effective. It consists of a gradual building of the shot process step by step starting out with eyes shut close to a blank bail & progressing from there.

Repetition of each step in the draw-release process will develop instinctive consistency performed by conscious command not by the subconscious part of the brain.

Ive been working on this for a few weeks & I actually believe good things are happening.

From: Sarge
Date: 05-Aug-19




Archery styles andmethods have zero, absolutely zero to do with TP. Anyone selling beachfront property in Arizona type metaphor.

ZERO to do with "GRIP AND RIP" Shooting Police are on patrol.

Control has everything to do with your shot process.

You might as well say everyone shooting a barebow needs a set of sights. That would be the next step in your continued effort to say that style and methods of aiming have anything to do with TP.

Callin the shooting police and retire. Shalom

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 05-Aug-19




Apparently even guys who do everything right get target panic. Who knew?

The cause of target panic is therefore shooting.

From: Babysaph
Date: 05-Aug-19




Uh oh. I know what the cause is. It is not having a clicker on ur bow. Lol

From: GLF
Date: 05-Aug-19




It's like barrel racing horses. They turn when you que them to, but eventually the begin to think they know more and anticipate this turning when they want to. In archery you release when you're ready then one day your subconscious does it for you. Now the time to fix it or it gets worse. Anyhow on that subconscious release you hit dead center so you allow it to go on. In weeks your subconscious will have taken control to the point you're outa control. Welcome to tp.

From: GLF
Date: 05-Aug-19




From there it takes many forms while you're trying to fight it.

From: 2 bears
Date: 05-Aug-19




I have a mild form of TP. Probably closest to what GLF is describing. If I decide to I can draw and hold as long as I want then shoot or let down. If I don't plan on it as soon as I am on target the arrow is gone. Not as difficult to deal with as most because I am on target when I release.If I decide before hand I can shoot quick or hold for 3 to 5 seconds. If no fore thought I may wiggle around for a second or two but when I find the spot it is gone. Self taught and shooting for over 50 years I doubt that it can be changed much. Thoughts????? >>>---->Ken

From: Phil
Date: 05-Aug-19




A question for all you guys who "know" what target panic is and what causes it ... how do you know what causes it?

From: RymanCat
Date: 05-Aug-19




Overbowed for most part and not knowing about what a shot sequence is.

That's why mentors are so important if you can get one because they help point out bad habits that get ingrained.

From: GLF
Date: 05-Aug-19




I had it so bed that after years fighting it and keeping my hunting shots to 10 yards I gave up and quit. A few weeks later a friend put a window clicker on my bow and explained I couldnt release till the click and, voila, no to. I figured it was cured and shot without it and froze under the first bullseye I shot at. I went over how it came on so decided I'd work on using a mental clicker. That took time before it worked but after a year or so I took away the clicker but not the .dental one. Its cured now but it tries to sneak in on occasion.all the anticipating I believe came from shooting sights and concentrating on the sight instead of the target.

From: Live2hunt
Date: 05-Aug-19




Target panic is a miserable SOB. Hard to say what causes it, could be anything. It is parts of your brain fighting with each other. I believe mine came when I would try to be perfect with my compound like dead center every time, getting worn out and still trying to hit, pressure to hit, and tournaments. Next thing you know, wham, you can't even get the pin to the target. I myself have been fighting it for years. It's better and I can manage it, but sometimes it rears it ugly head. Stay relaxed, don't worry about your misses and don't get caught up in hitting the exact center of a target. You would be surprised that when you are relaxed and just shoot how many times you do hit center.

From: Phil
Date: 05-Aug-19




... but how do you know that TP is caused by being overbowed and not knowing a shot sequence?

From: lamb
Date: 05-Aug-19




best article you've written yet!!! i went to a 3d shoot a couple of weeks ago guy wouldn't shoot against me. i had i clicker on my bow .reason i' would have kicked his ass and he knew it. he was part of the instinctive crowd. grip and rip. notice there's a word in instinctive. stink

From: Draven
Date: 05-Aug-19




I am really wondering why the clicker is the "scarecrow" in this topic - or the "magical tool" to fight TP. There are a lot of clicker shooting archers who have TP, and they are not "amateurs" like us. Other than cultivating the "get a clicker on your bow to show you are good" folklore there are no benefits for the "not educated under a formal training" shooter.

From: dean
Date: 05-Aug-19




Perhaps an extreme mechanical step by step process can help some control TP. If so, good for that person. No one had TP worse than me, i know the day it started and what was happening that day. No one died, but I was tempted. Many people get TP from repeating the same thing over and over until the brain starts taking short cuts. Back in my target shooting years, I saw a number of target shooters with perfect form start losing control and go down the toilet. i have seen some that shot bows that were too stiff and could not shoot them, then when they tried to shoot a bow that they should have been able to control, they would carry the same mechanics to the light bow. TP is mental, not in the TP folks are nuts way, but the neuro pathways physical way. If you can build a different pathway, the TP will be like it is on a different channel that you are watching. If you are still on that channel and are watching it, but using mechanics to divert or over power the tendencies that may very well be the only thing that will work for you and hopefully the TP static will fade with time. I have personally seen others like myself that could get the channel changed and move on. I think some folks are more likely to get a hitch in their giddy-up than others. I am not sure if going to your local AA meeting and saying, "My name is Geward Farkwire, I have TP and I need a drink." would be the answer, but always telling yourself what not to do, may increase the problem. Instead, simply telling yourself what you need to do may be a start.

From: JRW
Date: 05-Aug-19




"I am really wondering why the clicker is the "scarecrow" in this topic - or the "magical tool" to fight TP. There are a lot of clicker shooting archers who have TP, and they are not "amateurs" like us. Other than cultivating the "get a clicker on your bow to show you are good" folklore there are no benefits for the "not educated under a formal training" shooter."

Just because a solution doesn't work for every person doesn't mean it doesn't work for some or most. Personally, I just can;t understand why some folks are so against someone else (usually someone they don't even know) putting a clicker on their bow.

From: Draven
Date: 05-Aug-19




JRW, you read what is not there. Based on Bowmania’s text, a clicker is the tool stopping you to release when you want to. How about learning to release when you should not when “you want” or “you are allowed”? Taking out the mind factor from this - as he indicated - it is nothing but beating all horse of not-formal- training- archers to death. A Coach is teaching a way of thinking too, not just a way of doing. Archery has one single sequence to learn. Monotony without mindful training will screw things, clicker or not.

From: Sarge
Date: 05-Aug-19




I know what it is, if not, Jimmy Crackcorn. Shalom

From: Tom McCool
Date: 05-Aug-19




Honest question here.

Folks that have true TP and lets say shoot 50# bow and they are not over bowed at all. If they pick up a 20# bow to shoot, is it just as much of a problem?

Again, an honest question. I don’t have it or fully understand it but feel bad for folks do.

From: sake3
Date: 05-Aug-19




You guys are talking about many errors and archery syndromes and lumping them all in the same boat.Like saying that all repiratory problems are caused by the same ailment.OR that all headaches should be cured by aspirin or brain surgery.There area lot of shooting problems caused by the desire to hit the target.An archers loss of control can be due to being too anxious to hit.Being too anxious to hit can lead to the habit of early release........etc....but it can also lead to subtle errors and mistakes that interfere with premium form or your best shot.When i miss it's not always target panic.There is an implication that taget PANIC is when my shot is totallyy out of control.Maybe a clicker will help some people-maybe you need A LOT more work to fix it.~~~~~~A crossbow? a camera?

From: Sarge
Date: 05-Aug-19




Could you please explain, for the Sake3 of it, what is this statement?

"There is an Implication that target PANIC is when my shot is totally out of control"

And I think I have poor grammer and understanding, yet there is a time to actually listen rather than confuse people! It is sometimes overwhelming for me here, the "Humanity". Shalom

From: dean
Date: 05-Aug-19




I know one archer that was shooting a recurve that released as soon as hit touched anchor. He was told to hold off x amount of time, to do this, to do that, he was stuck in that. He did not know that he had a problem until he was told that he had a problem. He was shooting quite well as he was, but in his efforts to do what he was told , he completely fell apart, so he went to a compound and a mechanical release. That worked for a time, but then started to automatically hit the trigger as soon as the pin was anywhere on the target. Frustrated he quit. Then he watched the john Schulz video on Youtube, first he declared that John had the same TP that he had, but if that guy could do it, so could he and he decided to listen to no one else, just to see if he could do it. He picked up a longbow then came to me to buy some arrows. I had some that just needed to be cut to length that worked, he paid for the materials replacement. When testing the arrows, they flew good and he was plenty accurate at 20 yards. He asked me how to fix his TP, I told him that he had to maintain his perfect form by paying attention to his draw, draw length and follow through so that his good form that came so naturally for him would not degrade, but to only do that when taking a few up close shots just to check the individual parts of his form. He the said, "but I have TP and cannot hold at full draw." i had him slow it down and told him to release when he got too full draw and show me a perfect follow through. he could do that fine. ThenThen I told him, that he did not have Tp, he simply had correct Hill style timing. You would think that he would help me and my wife get on that big farm that he has sole access to, BUT NO!!

From: shooter
Date: 05-Aug-19




What causes TP? Ignorance

If I had the fortune or running into a person that knew how to teach me basics of archery I don't think I would have ever developed TP.

Now I'm learning them after the fact but its very hard to defeat TP once you've had it.

From: Maximum Max
Date: 05-Aug-19




Heavy bows and a weak mind drove me to TP so bad, I literally could not draw a bow more than about a foot without letting fly. That was in the middle 90's. At one point I just knew if something in front of me was something I absolutly did not want to shoot, I would be able to hold at full draw. So, when no one was home, I drew my bow and from about 3/4 draw, sent a 4 blade Delta through the closet door. It took a bing chunk out of my bowling ball!

It is still lurking in the background and I have never shot as well as I did before TP, but I have a much better handle on things these days. Funny, a couple beers makes it all go away. No kidding!

From: Tree
Date: 05-Aug-19




Gripping and ripping is not a controlled shot. The folks I know personally who’ve had TP are usually overbowd their not strong enough to control the shot. Not having a easily repeatable shot sequence is a big problem for folks with TP. I like to just pull my bow to anchor and let down just work on form I really feel this is good for keeping your form ingrained and, you need to do that in hunting situations sometimes. I agree with bowmania on this, he’s offering suggestions if you don’t agree go back and read his first 4 sentences.

From: Sarge
Date: 05-Aug-19




Grip It and Rip It! If all else fails, there is always one other method of hitting the golf ball; grip it and rip it. Want to hit it long and straight? Make it simple! There are three main components to the golf swing: 1) The Backswing, 2) The Downswing, and 3) The Follow-Through. As a young man growing up, I never had a problem with distance. My problem was accuracy. I was fortunate enough to get instruction from some of the best teachers around. I learned that if you want to hit it long and straight, simplify the swing. Break it down to its simplest components.

Google search.Shalom

From: Tree
Date: 05-Aug-19




Exactly right Sam break it down, easily repeatable.

From: Hico
Date: 06-Aug-19




lamb-a clicker is a draw check-plain and simple.Should not be allowed in any barebow class!

From: DanaC
Date: 06-Aug-19




I think 'target panic' is better thought of as 'score panic' - I'm not gonna hit the ten!!!

If you focus on the outcome you stop managing what you can control - your shot process. Take care of that and accept the fact that not every shot will be perfect. Like the old song says, "Stevie Ray Vaughn missed a note now and then", ;-)

From: thehun
Date: 06-Aug-19




The easy way to cure TP is to drink a lot of alcohol before shooting...get drank like a skunk. Than you see no target and no panic!

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Aug-19




Personally I think everyone should learn to shoot with a clicker. I shot for 30 years without one and didn't know what a good release or back tension was until I put one on.

Even though I don't shoot with one now, I don't understand where the anti-clicker feeling comes from, keeping one thought in mind. You can't put anything on your bow and shoot in a class where the majority are not using that anything. People who have ethics abide by that rule without thinking and people who don't need rules.

If you allowed a clicker in a trad class, no one would ever win without shooting a clicker. I got the rule changed in WI and I remember what the pro-clicker guy said before the vote. "He fellas, I have to tell you, I shoot better with a clicker than without." And that is exactly my point.

My point of this thread was to keep the bear at bay. I could have said, that shooting at a target creates pressure and that pressure can eventually create TP. If I said that, I wouldn't have been able to subject you to as much as my weekly babble. LOL.

My real point here is that there are forms of shooting that are more prone to TP than others. Can I prove that? No. But in my 50+ years of wondering through the archery world, I see a lot more people that grip and rip getting TP than others.

You can smoke a cigarette and not get addicted, but why take a chance.

Let me repeat, "If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment."

Bowmania

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"Based on Bowmania’s text, a clicker is the tool stopping you to release when you want to. How about learning to release when you should not when “you want” or “you are allowed”? "

How about understanding that not everyone is wired the same way, and that for some people a clicker is the perfect solution to their problem?

From: RymanCat
Date: 06-Aug-19




Using a clicker to hunt with? Come on click gone and good bye shot maybe? Its just another crutch I feel.

I seen them in action and not for me. And thats not fake news that guys aren't all wired the same.

We need to comand the shot at will but look at it like this even baseball players can't command each pitch so neither can we most of us.

I have always said that everyone has target panic to some degree but some just won't acknowledge it.

From: RymanCat
Date: 06-Aug-19




The actual main cause is what's in your head you tell yourself for the most part all else is just added trouble to read into more things to cause you to screw up.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Aug-19




Phil, loks like folks with a strong opinion get to make up their own reasons and pass it off as the truth.

From: Will tell
Date: 06-Aug-19




This may sound bad but if you fellas are traumatized about TP go buy a crossbow or a compound bow for hunting or take up another sport. It sure isn't worth starting to medicate yourself for heavens sake.lol The only time I start shooting bad is when I read theses posts and start messing around with the way I've been shooting for over 50 years.

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"Using a clicker to hunt with? Come on click gone and good bye shot maybe?"

None of the dead animals in my freezer seemed to mind. The clicker makes less noise than the bow string. :)

From: fdp
Date: 06-Aug-19




Wow Todf, thi is an emotional subject huh?

From: GLF
Date: 06-Aug-19




I shot bows in the 75lb range all my life. I got to when I set up a 50lb bow with sights for 3d. I had never heard of it or I might have been able to nip it in the bud. Once it got bad it carried over into all my shooting, even my hunting/3d bows without sights.

From: Smokedinpa
Date: 06-Aug-19




fdp- sure is. I think there were hundreds of people that requested Jim’s TP program. Bow shops see TP regularly. From the few responses I’ve read and my own experience with Jim’s program it works. Due in part that you slowly establish a shot sequence. The other thing is many are finding out that they have been over bowed for years and never realized it. There are a ton more guys that have it and are in denial. Then there are the guys who never had it or are in denial and say “oh you are just thinking too much”. None sense! Even if I feel I’m in control of my shot, I plan to do Jim’s program every winter. It’s a winner.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Aug-19




"How about understanding that not everyone is wired the same way, and that for some people a clicker is the perfect solution to their problem?"

JRW, how about understanding that is not about being wired different, but a problem of learning (most of the time not learning) correctly? A clicker - when you are not Olympic Archer - is a remedy because you failed to learn properly in first place. Start understanding this first and look for patches later if you forget this. Recommending the clicker as universal panaceas is like recommending to all living bipeds to use a walking stick because you will have less chances to fall.

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




Lots of theories as to what causes it. All I kmow is the clicker helps me get to a consistantly draw each and every Time. In fact I would be surprised if Olympic shooters didn't use them

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




Phil if in fact those are the two causes of it and you eliminate one then it's the other.

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




Lamb I run into that all the time. Lol. It's from guys that short draw so bad that they are usually scuffing around the targets looking for arrows.

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




Here is how I look at it. If someone all of a sudden gave us pill that cured cancer regardless of the cause we would all be line up to take it.,that is what the clicker is to me. It works for me so I don't care about the cause. It helps me to learn my bow and kill deer at 15 yards. And I don't cte if someone thinks I am worse than a Talban member for using one.

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"A clicker - when you are not Olympic Archer - is a remedy because you failed to learn properly in first place."

If you only knew how wrong you are. (shakes head)

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




So the Olympic archers use them because they didn't learn properly? Lol.how do you know who has learned properly and who hasnt? And if the Olympians learned properly why do they use one? You have to understand that I don't care about competition.,just shooting well.,if I was shootingg in the Olympics Id make them take clickers off their bows to shoot against me. They are an aid and crutch and should not be allowed. Just like elevated rests and carbons.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Aug-19




Gents, there are some Coaches in here that will say to you it takes personal examination to see the alignment is there before deciding where the clicker should be set. Any of you did this? I've shot in a competition next to an archer who had a clicker and for all the shots he was making the arrow was leaving the bow 2-3 seconds after the clicker was off. It was a patch, not a correct use of it, but maybe you have the Coach behind you teaching you correctly.

Babysaph, when you shoot 70m and you don't use your full length of the draw, your arrow will not reach the target where you want. And btw, there are enough Olympic Archers who have TP shooting with a clicker to understand that what is in your head is more important than an aide. On the other side of the spectrum, there are a lot of archers who don't get TP. Why?

From: Draven
Date: 06-Aug-19




Hedge, there are training methods to work with performance anxiety, not just Prozac. But your point is valid.

From: DarrinG
Date: 06-Aug-19




Will Tell for post of the year!!!

From: Nemophilist
Date: 06-Aug-19




Will Tell for the post of the year X2.

From: dean
Date: 06-Aug-19




TP obviously makes people crazy, if target archers that always used clickers can get TP, how can a clicker be a cure for anything. If you have TP just remember that someone may be watching you take a really bad yip shot know that you aren't perfect. Everywhere you go to shoot, someone will be there to judge every move you make. Eventually you will have no control over your mind and you will be completely insane. Or maybe, you could just shake it off, not worry about every little thing, tell yourself exactly what you are going to do and just do it. I bet anyone can shoot a pretend bow and arrow exactly how they want. Don't try to figure out why you cannot shoot a real bow like a pretend bow, get over yourself and just do it.

From: Simple Man
Date: 06-Aug-19




For me personally it just took a lot of time. Once I didnt care if I killed a buck I stopped missing for the most part. Sort of like shooting with a bunch of people looking. Once you dont care you shoot better. Also just repetition helps. I've shot deer before and had to ask myself if I just shot a deer. I just did it and in all the excitement it was automatic.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Aug-19




Wow, if we knew all of this expertise existed, we could have whooped target panic's ass decades ago. ;)

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




draw, your arrow will not reach the target where you want. And btw, there are enough Olympic Archers who have TP shooting with a clicker to understand that what is in your head is more important than an aide. On the other side of the spectrum, there are a lot of archers who don't get TP. Why?

Bingo Draven. I hate when my arrow drops under the target. Lol. If it's good enough for Olympians it's good enough for those lil wv deer. Lol

From: GLF
Date: 06-Aug-19




Same reason some can be hypnotized and some cant?

From: GLF
Date: 06-Aug-19




Dean I gave that same advice for 20 years. Then I got tp and realized how ridiculous my advice had been. Before that no one could have convinced me that a person(me) could not control their own mind. I never got it shooting extinctive for 20 years but got it in just weeks with sights. Everyones different

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"TP obviously makes people crazy, if target archers that always used clickers can get TP, how can a clicker be a cure for anything."

Like I posted earlier...

"Just because a solution doesn't work for every person doesn't mean it doesn't work for some or most."

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"Wow, if we knew all of this expertise existed, we could have whooped target panic's ass decades ago. ;)"

Near as I can tell from some of the responses, the way to cure TP is just to stop having it. Easy-peasy, don'tcha know.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Aug-19




Actually JRW the single one who said he cured TP was KSL (Bowmania is his follower from what I know, and KSL made a movie about this). He was teaching the archer who had TP a mental approach and what to prioritize during the shooting sequence. He didn't use a clicker to make it go away, he educated the archer. Since KSL didn't have "patients" above 40yo or 50yo and more I believe it is harder for a mature person to change his way of thinking about the archery he is doing for ages. Against the opinion promoted here and other topics that an archer trains until he "ingrains it", that archer should have a check of what is he ingraining once in a while to see if he is missing parts. But in first place he must know what are the parts and why are they there otherwise he doesn't know that he is missing something. Preventing is much better than trying to cure something.

From: dean
Date: 06-Aug-19




I'm just kidding around. But really, getting all wrapped up in it will not stop it, that just reinforces the crazy..

From: Jon Simoneau Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 06-Aug-19




Been shooting with a clicker for over a year now. Best thing I ever did. I’ve been to the depths of hell and back again with TP manifesting itself in various forms. I’m not competing as I’m just a Bowhunter. Call it a crutch. I don’t care. For now it’s staying on my bows.

From: Jon Simoneau Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 06-Aug-19




Been shooting with a clicker for over a year now. Best thing I ever did. I’ve been to the depths of hell and back again with TP manifesting itself in various forms. I’m not competing as I’m just a Bowhunter. Call it a crutch. I don’t care. For now it’s staying on my bows.

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"Actually JRW the single one who said he cured TP was KSL (Bowmania is his follower from what I know, and KSL made a movie about this). He was teaching the archer who had TP a mental approach and what to prioritize during the shooting sequence. He didn't use a clicker to make it go away, he educated the archer."

Earlier I stated the obvious: "Just because a solution doesn't work for every person doesn't mean it doesn't work for some or most." The converse is also true. Just because something works for one or more people doesn't mean it works for everyone.

If KSL's system was TP-proof, no one trained under it would develop TP. That's not the case though.

From: DanaC
Date: 06-Aug-19




Consistent draw and pulling through are components of accuracy. A clicker helps ensure consistent draw length. If you're short-drawing or failing to pull through it could help.

Then again I've seen one clicker user who got to anchor, pulled a bit further and couldn't release. Back and forth, click-click-click-click-click...

It works for many/most. You might be the 'odd man out'. Sorry.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Aug-19




Based on his words, no archer he trains has TP.

From: JRW
Date: 06-Aug-19




"Based on his words, no archer he trains has TP."

Of course. ;)

From: Sarge
Date: 06-Aug-19




May I make a proposal?

Archery is a simple thing.

Archery uses a spring to cast an arrow is a simple mechanical device requiring a spring, a string, and an arrow.

The fourth component is the Operater.

If the O begins to over analyze and struggle with three simple components, what is the problem? Shalom

From: Phil
Date: 06-Aug-19




Quote "Based on his words, no archer he trains has TP." .... would he admit it if one of his archers developed TP .. of course not

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




Jon I put one on my bow in 1989. Some bows have come and gone. The clicker stayed. Like you I am a hunter so it will stay on.

From: dean
Date: 06-Aug-19




I had TP so bad that i could not draw a bow back to my anchor, at the time i thought,' time to go left handed'. The TP was the same on both sides. I no longer have TP with either hand, but my right hand fingers get stiff when i shoot right handed. I tried the Kadwell stuff, that did not do anything for me. I tried going back to one of my target bows with the clicker. So I would draw until the clicker released and then snapped the release. That was not a cure for me, because I still flinched at the instant the clicker sounded, it simply delayed the panic. Getting rid of the mental static was my cure. If all you are doing when shooting is trying to not have TP you are reenforcing the TP, because it is still the primary driving force in your concentration. Being stone cold objective without being self judgmental and not caring about missing, can clear up the mind. If you believe that something will not work, you are making sure that it will not work by failing. I think many are simply so involved with trying to force themselves that they cannot separate themselves from the TP. More than a fear of missing, a fear of changing the mental game. For Hill style shooters the insurance lies in the follow through, the follow through is the last part of a correct shot. it is not about how long one holds the bow back, did you do everything that allows the reward of a perfect follow through? If you did, the draw, anchor and release will have been included. When that becomes automatic, you can see if you can hit what you are shooting at, but if you get all wrapped up in hitting or missing, the TP will jump back to life. I have seen confidence builders like a bow sight or knowing the position of the arrow in a shot help beginners get stronger more secure form and accuracy, but they did not have TP they suffered lack familiarity with what is good and what is bad. I remember PAA pro Glen Addler telling about his TP. He had to set up off target and then try to drift across the target complete his draw to set off the clicker and be on target all at the same time for the release. Boy, that is a lot to do under stress. Once again, I find the direct and ergonomic approach as taught by John Schulz the most practical method for taking a reliable hunting shot. "Be on target and ready for an immediate release." and don't call it TP just because you didn't hold for half a moon phase.

From: Sarge
Date: 06-Aug-19




2nd observation:

Gimmicks

What will allow you to be a better archer?

Is it you, or is it more additions to your Bow?

Can we devolve rather evolve with mechanical tech or come back to the basics?

If we "evolve" in archery, should it be the Archer or the equipment?

If we evolve, we naturally gravitate to more tech like sights and eccentrics.

The answer has to be answered by the Archer.

Can I do it with three components or do I need 5, or six, or do I actually need something else to make my plan work?

What is your plan and purpose and is it necessary to have more to accomplish your gains, or less?

Trad Bows seem to answer that question in and of their basic designs rather than adding more to the equation to enhance the fourth component, which is the Archer. Shalom

From: Sarge
Date: 06-Aug-19




Ultimately for those who choose the Narrow gate which is a Trad Bow, evolving your own ability to drive the Bow to target is the goal, using less, putting emphasis on the ability rather than the equipment.Shalom

From: Babysaph
Date: 06-Aug-19




I'm of the opinion that if you can not get to full draw with a clicker you can not get to full draw. All these guys that think they have i beat probably do not shoot each arrow the same speed. I'll bet on it.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Aug-19




I'd like to say something about all the writing I've done since the first of the year. If I criticized something, it's because I used to do it and found a better way. There may be an exception, but if I remember from grade school, the exception proves the rules.

We happen to have people on here that criticize things, because IT'S not the way they do it that way!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, if they tried hunting with a clicker they'd find that it doesn't scare animals. And I don't mean just the clicker as an example. Guy claimed my comparison between 2 and 5 inch feathers is a 'load of crap'. I know he never tried them. I shot 5 inch for 40 years and wouldn't consider shooting anything longer than 2.

I shot a clicker in Africa. An impala makes a whitetail look like he's been on downers for a couple of weeks. The first day an impala came in that was not big enough to shoot. I drew back and clicked the clicker without shooting - he never moved.

The best one on here always makes me laugh. "I've been doing XYZ for 30 years and there's a bunch of dead animals...". In my MORE than 30 years of archery, I've found out I had done a lot of thing wrong for 30 years. There's something to be said for having an open mind.

AND that's very hard when you're a red neck.

Bowmania

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Aug-19




AND while I'm at it... One of the rudest things ever said to me is on this thread. Part of the reason that makes it so rude is that I'm never expect it coming from the guy who said it.

My skin got pretty thick after starting these Monday threads.

Bowmania

From: Homey88
Date: 06-Aug-19




I have been battling TP for sometime now. It all started back in my compound days being over bowed. I would draw the bow pointing to the sky and drop my sight pins in from the top and once the pin hit the target I would release. It has carried over into shooting traditional. I can draw and hold over the target forever. I use the tip of the arrow to gap. Once I lower the bow and I get that sight picture I want to release. I have been working on drawing the bow back lowering the arrow to get my correct gap and I hold for a count of 3 then release the arrow. It has taken a lot of work but I’m getting there. I did get Jim’s TP program but struggled to follow it due to the urge of wanting to release the arrow. I definitely need to give the program a fair shake. I have also thought about getting a clicker as well. TP is a pain in the rear

From: Draven
Date: 06-Aug-19




Phil, a Coach - no matter who he is - is not responsible for what is happening between the ears of his pupil unless he is there all the time and supervise him - and even then he doesn't have the control on his student's thoughts when he is by himself (competition or hunting). But his duty is to make his student to understand what affects what and teach him a way of thinking about what is he doing. I believe you can avoid TP if you don't let things out of your control. In any type of sport improving a sequence is personal thing you do through training. Learning to be aware of what you are doing without consciously monitoring what you are doing is the essence of so called "ingraining". And this requires to have your priorities in right places. How many are shooting a couple of arrows and when they hit the target is "work accomplished". And how many of these end on TP land because one day they can't hit the mark as they used to? A friend of mine got TP because for him was more important to hit the X than how he made the arrow to get there. Literally he couldn't let the arrow fly because the most important thing for him was to get the X and he was holding until the pin was rock solid on the centre of the gold - and it never happened because we are humans not robots. Once he changed his way of thinking - and it took months to relearn - he started to keep TP in check. Doing things "the right way" is a soap balloon for most, but how you think about your shot is how you will shoot.

From: Maximum Max
Date: 06-Aug-19




I found what Dean said above to be very accurate to my experience with TP.

I have also found this quote below rather applicable to my journey.

"The best one on here always makes me laugh. "I've been doing XYZ for 30 years and there's a bunch of dead animals...". In my MORE than 30 years of archery, I've found out I had done a lot of thing wrong for 30 years. There's something to be said for having an open mind."

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Aug-19




Hedge, I didn't have the big hooks in Africa. They happen to be as quite as my elk longbow - with my whitetail setup. THe moose setup is just average, no silencers, I want all the energy I can get.

Big hooks don't have to be loud.

That is a little off subject. Back to bring it around, I can say that all the while I've been shooting Border equipment, I haven't got TP, so of course I can conclude everyone who doesn't want to get TP should shoot Border. AND there you have it.

Bowmania

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Aug-19




" I did get Jim’s TP program but struggled to follow it due to the urge of wanting to release the arrow."

Um......

From: GLF
Date: 06-Aug-19




My clicker never cured it but put it in remission sorta. But it gave me control enough to work out my problem. I haven't used a clicker for 10 years or so. I still have the same shot sequence as before with no problems but you can bet if I ever set up another bow with sights the clicker will be on it.

From: Sarge
Date: 06-Aug-19




From: Phil
Date: 07-Aug-19




Sorry Bowmania but I've missed the part where you actually tell us... what the cause of target panic is

From: BC173
Date: 07-Aug-19




To never get TP, one must be either be so dumb they can’t be effected or so intelligent they know it’s mind over matter. :)

From: Tom McCool
Date: 07-Aug-19




Maybe we need a cure for “keyboard panic”.

From: NY Yankee
Date: 07-Aug-19




Somebody here is really full of himself. I'm really tired of the "my way is the only right way" attitude. #Leatherwall Celebrity.

From: B arthur
Date: 07-Aug-19




Good as usual Bowmania. I find all of your posts useful. Thanks.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 07-Aug-19




Target panic is a mental issue, so although devices or changing styles may help temporarily, the only permanent solution in my opinion is to deal with it on the mental side. The late coach Al Henderson was a master at the “mental approach”. His book “Understanding Winning Archery” is one I would suggest that you read. Target Communications published it.

The mind is a powerful and wonderful thing but when target panic sets in, it may show itself in your physical shooting style -but it’s the mental side that is the only place that you can truly fix the issue. Sure a clicker or other method but temporarily cover it up but sooner or later it will come back.

Search here for my thread on target panic. I hope it helps you.

Obviously opinions vary but when you perform on front of large crowds and often get a RV news camera pointed at you while you are shooting a bow, this can help inspire target panic. Fortunately in 1990 I learned how to deal with it and haven’t looked back.

My two cents.

Frank Addington

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 07-Aug-19




Thanks. I have an entire thread but it’s orobanly five years or So back.

Frank

From: Sarge
Date: 07-Aug-19




Frank is right as far as performance anxiety is concerned. Break your down in steps, memorize it and apply it to learning old habits and reactions by applying disciplined practive and confidence.Shalom

From: Sarge
Date: 07-Aug-19




Try a formaster

From: Babysaph
Date: 07-Aug-19




I told you guys target panic is the failure to place a clicker on your bow.

From: Babysaph
Date: 07-Aug-19




Knowing the cause of it doesn't help cure it. We know what causes the common cold but we havnt cured it. I disagree about the clicker. The only way for it to come back is to take the clicker off your bow. Lol. Mine has been cured since 1989.

From: Draven
Date: 07-Aug-19




Placebo effect works sometimes Babysaph, and you know this good enough.

Paying $200 / hour to solve your psychological issues is far more expensive than slapping a clicker on the bow and believing it will help. I really am not against this. I am against the idea that "clicker is what solves the TP" when there are a lot of clicker shooters who have TP.

From: Babysaph
Date: 07-Aug-19




Placebo effect is real but how is placing a clicker on a bow a placebo? A placebo is doing nothing and acting like you did. Besides I have other uses for $200. And the $15 clicker did help. Like I said earlier if you can't come to full draw with a clicker on your bow Id say you will never come to full draw. It worked for me so I don't worry about all the cures. Besides I've seen guys that "have no target panic" release 5 inches or more before their anchor. They may not have target panic but they are not at full draw each and ever time. Imo this will effect the speed of you arrow. How can you learn your bow no matter what aiming method you use if you can't shoot the bow the same speed with each arrow? Of course this is just my opinion and I do not shoot competition or care what people think of my clicker. Animals hate it:)

From: dean
Date: 07-Aug-19




i think TP is caused by too much soy in the food chain, or maybe msg. I am getting sooo triggered right now, changing hands may help with TP for many. Changing genders won't do a thing for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=k1AXReZgFxw

From: DanaC
Date: 07-Aug-19




" I am against the idea that "clicker is what solves the TP" when there are a lot of clicker shooters who have TP. "

That confuses correlation with causation. Many people put a clicker on because they already have problems and are trying to fix them. It doesn't *cause* the problems.

And no guarantee it fixes them but it works for many. But arguing from personal experience - anecdotal evidence - proves nothing. It's one tool in the kit.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 07-Aug-19




I have a funny story about Fred Bear and his target panic. I have to tell you in person, can’t write it on LW...Dick Mauch shared this story and I laughed until I cried. But yes even Papa Bear had a case of TP.

Frank

From: dean
Date: 07-Aug-19




i won't use his name, he sometimes posts on here. He could not touch his anchor point and released about an inch short. He could shoot fast, he could shoot slow, but he still could not touch his face. I asked him if his shooting glove had poop on it. He said 'no'. So i barked at him, " can you touch your face without pulling the string?" He could barely do it. So I yelled, "Touch your damn face." Such naughty names he called me. Then i had him try a Wrist Rocket with white marbles. No issues at all, in fact he was impressively accurate with it. I took back my wrist rocket and had him shoot his bow. i said, "Touch your face or I shoot you in the ass for calling me names." He called me a couple more names while he was drawing his bow and touched his face, held for a second and made a perfect shot. The human brain is a quirky thing.

From: Babysaph
Date: 07-Aug-19




I watched him shoot in vidoes and noticed his short draw

From: Babysaph
Date: 07-Aug-19




Draven, a placebo as we both know has no effect. Only mental. If a person does not have symptoms even though they took a pill with no medicinal value and they have no symptoms what more can you ask for? It's true that maybe mentally my symptoms of target panic may return without the clicker. I know I can defeat the symptoms and that is all I care about. Don't overthink it. We both know that the clicker would help a lot of people but they have to take a ribbin from their friends and they can't shoot in IBO. Not getting to full draw really effects bow performance.

From: dean
Date: 07-Aug-19




If a clicker or a bow sight helps a person on the mental side, then that is what they should do. Declaring that a clicker is the only thing that will work, like the op posted, is not correct. The op did not want anyone to comment that did not agree with everything in his sermon, this the Leatherwall, and things like 'Let's look at a clicker, because that's how we should shoot.' are suppose to be accepted by all. Really? If I was to inhibit myself to being only a static target shooter, I would probably just use a compound, they are better for that style of shooting.

From: Babysaph
Date: 07-Aug-19




It's not the only way. But I would say not many people can shoot the same fps each shot without some drawcheck.

From: Babysaph
Date: 08-Aug-19




Can't Not can

From: dean
Date: 08-Aug-19




A few years ago i emptied a quiver through a shooting machine, at a bit further back than what owner of it was comfortable with, 10 yards, I did not hit it. It was an eye opener. Perhaps i was nervous about clipping it, but i had some arrows that were quite a bit slower than the last two out of the eight. I moved up on and still had some variations. By the third quiver load I was getting them close to the same speed. One thing I did discover that day is that my longbow did not lose as much speed with a slightly short draw than the recurve that i had did. At a one inch shorter the recurve slowed down about double what the longbow did. There could be a good reason for that, like the recurve power stroke wanted a longer draw to begin with than the longbow. Draw length consistency can be more important for one set up than another. Another example, my wife's NAT is very quick for a short hybrid, at 26" there is a slight tip motion that kicks in that is not there at 25", anything over 26" the bow really comes on, but at 25" it shoots the same speed as her ASL does at 25''. Getting a consistent draw length is worth paying attention to, I would bet that is also the reason why many hunter's accuracy falls off at anything beyond 18 or 20 yards. My wife videoed the first shot that i took with my newest longbow, I stopped my draw to get a better visual of my limbs bending, yep, I could see about a half inch of draw slip. Further testing shows that particular bow is very forgiving of a half inch draw loss, but it is something to keep in mind.

From: lost run
Date: 08-Aug-19




I am with Babysaph, I have seen guys at shoots let go 3"-4" short of anchor. I have done it my self.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Aug-19




Do you have any evidence that their anchor is farther back? I mean, how would you know?

From: Sarge
Date: 08-Aug-19




Only in the one aspect of what is a term referenced as an "Anchor" that is usually something which is a solid consistent placement of the drawing hand on the face, or bone structure like a tooth or the skull area. Generally it is referred to in the rifle and shotgun world as a "Cheekweld" which would enhance consistency by placeing the eye inline with the linear aspectsof the base mechanics of the entire device that propells the cartridge or shell in a more consistent alignment to the intended center and not the peripheral. Alignment enables more consistentancy as a general term and definition for consistency. Shalom

From: Sarge
Date: 08-Aug-19




Yes Hedge, less susceptable to limb torque, especially when shot with a firm grip and less prone to the paradoxial out puts of a sometimes sloppy release that we might have shooting very quickly on something moving. Shalom

From: Babysaph
Date: 08-Aug-19




One of the reasons guys miss deer atb15 yards toi. If they short draw when shooting 3-D imagine what they will do with a deer in front of them.,and bending over in a treestand? It is worse

From: DanaC
Date: 08-Aug-19




"Do you have any evidence that their anchor is farther back? I mean, how would you know? "

If they 'sink into' their anchor, it's not a proper anchor. If they don't get a clean release becsause they're pulling with their biceps instead of their back, it's not a proper anchor. A good anchor, solid while maintaining back tension, is pretty evident when you watch someone shoot. A bad anchor is even more obvious.

"You can observe a lot by just watching." - Yogi Berra

From: Babysaph
Date: 08-Aug-19




Agree with Dana again

From: Sarge
Date: 08-Aug-19




Danax2 shalom.

From: BenMaher
Date: 08-Aug-19




I’m going to suggest that many here have never experienced TPyet seem to be pretty sure about its origins AND remedies...

From my experience , it would seem the clicker/ mechanics receptive trigger is the only thing that lets me manage it . It is always going to be there for me . As such , I’ll deal with it with the tools that work best for me . The TP isn’t going anywhere and nor am I ... life is too short to not shoot well so I did something about it, I got help !

I’ll also look to those who have dealt with it for guidance and help . For many of those commenting , I doubt you understand how debilitating it is . As such , you probably don’t understand how to manage it.

JRW ... from one Titan toting clicker shooter to another ... Word. ( you have the patience of a saint dude )

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Aug-19




Dana, that's your proper anchor, not theirs. The comment was that they did not "reach" anchor, not what they did with it.

From: Sarge
Date: 08-Aug-19




Lol, a good day to all! Shalom

From: DanaC
Date: 08-Aug-19




"Dana, that's your proper anchor, not theirs."

'Proper anchor' isn't just a place on your face, it's a reference that says, okay, your elbow is back, your back muscles are still pulling, now you can shoot. Whether you never get there or you go past it and drop back, the result is the same.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Aug-19




Hard to say without knowing their set-up or possible physical limitations.

You could see a guy shooting a 40 inch Native style bow and say he's not doing any of that.

Also see Ken or Walt Wilhelm video.

I would be more interested in how folks are hitting rather than just how they look.

From: Sarge
Date: 08-Aug-19




How are you hitting? That is the question. Shalom

From: DanaC
Date: 09-Aug-19




"If you go past anchor and creep forward to DL most likely your going to a static release. "

Exactly!

Sometime, have a friend deliberately overdraw and sink into his anchor point. His hand may come forward just an inch but watch how far forward his elbow comes. It will shock you! That 'collapse' shows a total loss of back tension.

I know that some shooters claim they can 'find their back' at full draw. I can't - I need to find it at the start and maintain it through the shot. If I lose it, that shot is gonna suck.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 09-Aug-19




If it was a "total loss of back temnsion" The arm would be thrown forward.

I've seen plenty of guys do the two step process mentioned by Hedge.

It's like they draw to a length that matches their arm and torso dimensions and thwn adjust it to what matches their vision.

From: DanaC
Date: 09-Aug-19




I'd rather turn my head a bit ;-)

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 09-Aug-19




And they wouldn't. Two individual methods.

From: DanaC
Date: 09-Aug-19




Yeah, and some guys seem to *like* tearing their noses half off their faces ;-)

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 09-Aug-19




Including the guy considered the best. lol

From: DanaC
Date: 09-Aug-19




Yeah, but he matches his nose tape to his surfer shorts ;-)

From: JRW
Date: 09-Aug-19




"Including the guy considered the best. lol"

When you can out shoot him, be sure to let us know. :)

From: DanaC
Date: 09-Aug-19




Heck I just wanna be his caddy ;-)

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 09-Aug-19




""Including the guy considered the best. lol" When you can out shoot him, be sure to let us know. :) "

Reading comprehension is hard.

From: Sarge
Date: 09-Aug-19




Especially for some, who read and type more than they should be shooting, myself included. Shalom

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 09-Aug-19




The cause of target panic is simply a mental issue which has to be dealt with.

From: JRW
Date: 09-Aug-19




BenMaher,

LOL! Don't you know everyone's an expert archer on the internet? :)

From: Sarge
Date: 09-Aug-19




Ben, an "Expert" is a drip under presurre! lol shalom

From: fdp
Date: 09-Aug-19




There's soem good information here. as well as some that's kust not. There's information that's obviously posted by folks that have actually suffered from TP, and those who haven't, but think they knowwhat it is.

Being overbowed doesn't in and of itself cause TP.These days, the first hing folks say when someone starts talking about TP is that the person is overbowed. It's simply because they really don't know what TP is. You can be shooting a bow that's too heavy for you to handle well, and show no signs of TP at all. Conversely, you can shoot a bow that draws 15 lbs. and have severe TP.

TP doesn't contain one set of symtoms or issues, it can be made up of more than one, or something different.

For instance, in my bout with TP, I couldn't get the point of thearrow OFF the target. I had no trouble putting the arrow on the spot. I had no trouble executing every other step in the shooting sequence correctly, but I couldn't make myself lower the point the arrow. Just wouldn't happen.

I've seen people who couldn't turn loose of the string. They could execute every part of the sequence almost flawlessly, except the release. I've seen people who could stand in front of a blank bale and execute every shot with perfection. Then get in front of a target at 15 yards, and start to fall apart. And it had -0- to do with the draw weight of the bow.

Because a person "short draws" (what ever that means) doesn't neccessarily mean they have TP. Just because they "snap shoot" doesn't neccessarily mean they have TP. Some folks (not all, but some) shoot very accurately that way. Just because a person doesn't "anchor" (what ever that means to you) doesn't mean that they have TP. A person can have text book form and still suffer from it.

I don't know what causes TP to start manifesting itself. But I do know that it can manifest itself in more than one way, with more than one st of symptoms.

I also know that at least in my case it was a mental thing. And if it hadn't been for some help that I got from some folks on here helping me understand it, I'd still probably be fighting it.

Back tension has virtually nothing to do with TP. And nothing to do with controlling it for the majority of people.

Drawing past your anchor and then settling in, well Paul Shaeffer shot that way and he was a pretty fair hand with a recurve. So it didn't hurt him any.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Aug-19




"Back tension has virtually nothing to do with TP. And nothing to do with controlling it for the majority of people."

I'm curious if coaches who have worked with advanced archers that have good extension form/back tension would agree.

A corollary, are lower level archers with poor form and poor extension more likely to get TP? I'd argue that while there are always exceptions, those with poor form and poor extension are overwhelming more likely to get TP.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Aug-19




The target form gurus on here overwhelmingly state that if you shoot properly for long enough and compete, you WILL deal with target panic eventually.

So that's 100% despite doing everything right.

From: Sarge
Date: 10-Aug-19




That is the most objective statement and true thing in the whole thread Elderly. Thank you, I believe you are exactly right and people like John Demmer have confirmed that. Shalom

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Aug-19




It's true. Then the way that it manifests itself (or appears to) gets the blame as the cause. That's putting the cart before the horse.

So someone who starts shortdrawing and snap shooting due to TP isn't getting it from doing the former.

From: fdp
Date: 10-Aug-19




So David since you are a doubter, explain how back tension or lack of back tension causes TP.

From: Sarge
Date: 10-Aug-19




TP manifests by performance anxiety. Top shooters understand it and train to eliminate it from their shot process and see the signs of it creeping and then they are able to get past it it, even though they feel some of the presurre causing it to rear its head. THey have learned to deal with it and beat it effecting their shot.Shalom

From: Grizzly
Date: 10-Aug-19




What causes Target Panic ....this thread. Seriously if you need to use a clicker, by all means do. It ain't curing the mental issue, it's side stepping the issue but it allows you to shoot.

Try chilling and relaxing. It works wonders. Archery is suppose to be fun! Well that's what I keep reading and hearing.

Everyone is in a hurry. Dammed if I know where they are going.

From: Grizzly
Date: 10-Aug-19




So why aren't you guys having fun with your archery?

From: DanaC
Date: 10-Aug-19




Whether any particular form issue is a cause of or just a symptom of TP, it makes sense to me to treat it. Treating the symptom may lessen the overall problem, even if it doesn't get to the root of it.

A decongestant won't cure a cold but it makes it easier to deal with.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Aug-19




The point is that people with great form get target panic too.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Aug-19




The gubbmint laced ticks with TP and turned them loose at the target ranges and even indoor 300 shoots.

It's a conspiracy started by Fred Asbelites.

From: Sarge
Date: 10-Aug-19




No, the difference is that you are not winning and they are! Shalom

From: lost run
Date: 10-Aug-19




In wv we get it when we turn 15.

From: Grizzly
Date: 10-Aug-19




Everyone has anxiety to some level. Its just that some control it better than others and don't let it run away from them. If you need a pop a pill to shoot a bow and arrow .....mmmmmmm.

From: fdp
Date: 10-Aug-19

fdp's embedded Photo



Some of us do still have fun with archery. Here's one of my girls with a new flatbow we were finishing up for her today

From: Grizzly
Date: 11-Aug-19




Excellent

From: dean
Date: 11-Aug-19




This evening with six new arrows, I drew magic marker lines on them, not for me, for my wife to check if I started short drawing. She can not see the point, but she can see that black line when it shows up on the belly side of the bow. Warning, don't look at it yourself it will throw the whole shot off. The goal was find what range my bow shot those arrows point on, 54 yards, then shoot every arrow at a once second tempo from the beginning of the draw to release, working up five yards(or so) a set, from point on, until I was at five yards from the target. When I shot to find the exact point on I had a couple of short draw issues, When i found it and shot at the full one second speed, the draw stabilized and I continued to group on the deer all the way to five yards. Most would call that snap shooting TP. Good for you. For those that are shooting Hill style, working on a full draw in a machine state of mind will teach nothing when you go to taking a fluid shot at game. Develop the consistent form and draw length using the fluid shot timing and ignore anyone that will tell anything different. Bye Bye

From: twostrings
Date: 11-Aug-19




Well, we all like to have fun making stuff more complicated than it is but modern physics and cosmological speculative studies inform us that we lose control of our releases because the majority of our alternate selves in the majority of alternate universes in the great multiverse of possibilities have already let the shot go and the unavoidable quantum bleed through from all of our possible selves making that shot is trying to make us let go of that darn string and catch up. The Mach principle wants us to go with the flow.

From: Babysaph
Date: 11-Aug-19




What is the Hill style?? Skort drawing?

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 11-Aug-19




Yes, Hill had a shorter draw than his body dimensions would indicate. Probably would have had at least a 30 inch draw if he was all stand up and rigid. Instead he was down around 27". Didn't have crazy back tension either. He kind of hunched and "goosed" his head down to the arrow too.

From: GLF
Date: 11-Aug-19




Some people can snap shoot and never get to. Others cannot.....bye bye

From: Jinkster
Date: 11-Aug-19




Too much thought and to little action...that's what causes it.

From: Will tell
Date: 11-Aug-19




This post has given me a friggin headache.

From: sake3
Date: 11-Aug-19




In the SCA (medieval group) scored rounds include both target and speed ends.The prevalence of TP is not epidemic or even notable.The better archers can get off 11 to 15 shots in 30 seconds.Occasionally ,Exceptional archers have hit 17.An excellent archer once complained that his accuracy was worse when he switched quickly from fast shooting to a slower target shot.(Of course at that point he was so far ahead he won the tournament anyway.

From: Sarge
Date: 11-Aug-19




Feed the soul, not the ego.Shalom

From: old buck Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 11-Aug-19




Every time i see thread "Title" at the top it gives me PTSD panic traumatic stress.......... 195 posts, AND I just put it back at the top, auuuuuggh ! Let's end it.

From: David A.
Date: 11-Aug-19




"The target form gurus on here overwhelmingly state that if you shoot properly for long enough and compete, you WILL deal with target panic eventually."

The problem with this statement is you have thrown in a huge new factor: competition!

fdp, I would argue proper form - not just back tension - helps insulate against TP. This would include mental form such as having a good shot sequence which implies mental form. All of this agrees with much of Joel Turner's thesis. It seems pretty obvious to me if you have TP, there is a breakdown in form - mental, physical or both.

That said, I don't agree with JT's entire thesis on the causes of TP, but he has some very good material - and yes, I bought his course.

From: Phil
Date: 11-Aug-19




There is of course an alternative point of view that Target Panic is a precision activity focal dystonia. It fits all the clinical criteria.

From: DanaC
Date: 11-Aug-19




Phil, wadr, could you translate that to English, preferably no words more tham two syllables? ;-)

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 11-Aug-19




I'll do it for Phil: TP is Archery Yips.

Guys get twitchy when they can't cope with stress.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Aug-19




Elderly, the problem with your summation is lot of guys can cope with all types of stress but yet have TP. Another is the fact some archers will switch over to left handed shooting or vice versa and their TP is no longer an issue.

From: zetabow
Date: 12-Aug-19




Lack of shot discipline and not understanding the process.

Trad Archers are the least disciplined of all Archers, when it comes to learning or maintaining shot discipline. You don't see this TP epidemic in Olympic Archery.

From: Phil
Date: 12-Aug-19




David A,

Elderly Ocr summation is actually correct. I've been able to study archers with target panic in the Neuro lab for the past 3 years They all display classic signs of activity specific dystonia in the same way golfers experience it.

There's a loss of focused muscle inhibition that can be seen in changes to the EMG signal. The pre-excitation muscle activity spike is missing ... how does this happen? .. because there's reduce function of the medial Lemniscus which I'm sure your aware is the main ascending tract for exteroceptive sensation from the trunk and the extremities.

From: B arthur
Date: 12-Aug-19




Phil, did you and Hedge study at the same school?

From: David A.
Date: 12-Aug-19




Yeah I'm aware of it because I worked in biomedicine as well as being one of the study subjects at the Kerlan Jobe golf physiology lab. They are highly respected, but I think the study was a farce although not so much at the time.

As I'm sure you're aware, there are myriad reasons for specific and segmented dystonia, too many to go into here.

The problem with the dystonia being responsible for all or even a large amount of TP is that TP can be cured virtually immediately at least in some people.

From: Phil
Date: 12-Aug-19




No David .. there isn't myriad of reasons ... there's one . a breakdown in the tonic inhibition EMG signal.

So why don't you tell us all how target panic can be cured immediately ... the global archery community will be forever grateful

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Aug-19




Olympic archers have already been selected as an elite group less likely to suffer from the malady. That's why they are there.

The traits of being an elite competitor go beyond just being disciplined.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




Hedge, most of the switchers - based on their comments - follow a different mental attitude toward the training. It doesn't matter if it is John Schulz or KSL path, the old saying with “after you have been burned by hot soup, you blow in your yogurt” applies. Very few are ambidextrous and the amount of time spent to get the movements correctly teach them (even unwillingly) to follow a process not a result.

From: zetabow
Date: 12-Aug-19




"Olympic archers have already been selected as an elite group less likely to suffer from the malady. That's why they are there".

OCR I was thinking more about everyday Target Archers rather than the elite Olympic shooters. The whole Coaching program is very structured and backed up with proven reseach, so Archers entering such a structured program are far less likely to run into TP issues.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Aug-19




I'd like to see a survey of those afflicted to see how and when it struck them as well as their learning process.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




You can start one survey right here OCR. I think Jim Casto received more than a few requests for his program. Convince the gents who asked for it to share their own experience on how they got TP. But provide a straight forward set of questions. That will be interesting.

From: JRW
Date: 12-Aug-19




fdp,

"There's information that's obviously posted by folks that have actually suffered from TP, and those who haven't, but think they know what it is."

And that is likely the #1 problem with these discussions, folks who despite good intentions just don't know what they don't know.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




PS You can insert in the survey these two questions:

1. Did you had a formal training of any kind when you started archery? 2. Did you had a defined shooting sequence before getting TP?

From: Will tell
Date: 12-Aug-19




I'm wondering if those Primitive folks who had to use a bow to survive had TP and short draws and improper form. Those poor fellas probally starved to death. Too bad the leatherwall wasn't available to save them from starvation.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




Will Tell, nothing is a problem until becomes a problem. I bet the hunter-gatherers archers have the real target panic issue: if they miss they starve to death. This makes them way more attentive to the whole other things like: knowing how to get close to the animal, if the arrows is pointing toward the animal, when to shoot the animal and how to track the animal. I would really be interested where those skills were on a 1 to 10 scale for today's typical hunter who got TP.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 12-Aug-19




First of all, there is no way to understand primitive societies with today's mindset, with all of the information we already have to peruse we still are pretty clueless. I seriously doubt that much was defined at all, and when your life depends on killing an animal, you just figure it out. Humans did not prosper until they joined forces into larger families and groups that worked together for the common good (survival). It is likely that more animals were run over cliffs, or crushed with rocks early on to get a meat source. Everything would have had a learning curve if you were to survive. Folks today just don't have a clue about a truly primitive existence with no history to fall back on.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Aug-19




I heard that the Indian Government was going to do a flyover of North Sentinel Island and do a drop of "Casto's Cure for TP", Joel Turner's "Ironmind" and a few copies of Ferguson's "Become the Arrow".

Kind of like a missionary expedition but screwing up their archery instead. ;)

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




OCR, I heard that the hunter-gatherers archery community in Africa decided to teach the instinctive shooters from all over the world that knowing where the arrow is pointing is "good practice" and gun-barreling is not a sin.

From: Andy Man
Date: 12-Aug-19




Think its able to affect those that are mentally bothered by stress

like those that freeze in a flight or fight situation then others are able to function in a flight or fight situation don't get that inhibition like "Phill "is describing-- Like Fighter pilot in combat sniper etc.

some demand too much from themselves and are not able to deliver so mind shuts them down

I just shoot for FUN and in 50 years of shooting have no idea of target panic - never pressured myself maybe a slight blip of it (Buck Fever) a few times when had to watch too long before getting the shot

From: Andy Man
Date: 12-Aug-19




O Yea! I have had to look for arrows behind and to the left and right of the target- but dosn't bother me- part of the fun

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Aug-19




"OCR, I heard that the hunter-gatherers archery community in Africa decided to teach the instinctive shooters from all over the world that knowing where the arrow is pointing is "good practice" and gun-barreling is not a sin."

If that were true Africa would be beter represented at the Olympics in Archery instead of just running . lol

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




"If that were true Africa would be beter represented at the Olympics in Archery instead of just running . lol"

It is truer than your comment regarding the Indian Government and spreading the knowledge via parachuting books for sure. The hunter-gatherer has the sense of priority that some don't have. You don't have to be super archer to hunt, but you need the confidence in you when you go out there. I would really like to hear a true story of someone who never competed and how he got TP. How he got it and why he thinks he got it.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Aug-19




If they are both completely false how can one be truer? lol

There's lots of true TP stories on here from those who never compete in actual tournaments. They get it by getting overly wound up by just competing against themselves.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




Focus OCR focus! I didn't said "completely". You will get TP if you start to see what it is not there.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Aug-19




I know you didn't. I did. lol

From: Grizzly
Date: 12-Aug-19




I am cured..Never ever again will I open a TP thread.

From: Andy Man
Date: 12-Aug-19




Good one Griz

I agree with that too

From: southernillinois Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 12-Aug-19




Thread should be titled target panic rambling. There is no meaningful discussion about causes. In fact the first sentence indicates that causes will be avoided. To much fluff, rambling and personal opinionated qualitative bla bla.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Aug-19




Meaningful discussion starts when the blame for TP is assumed not just assessed. Introspection is best served in privacy, the same as revenge is best served cold.

From: David A.
Date: 13-Aug-19




"No David .. there isn't myriad of reasons ... there's one . a breakdown in the tonic inhibition EMG signal."

I'm trying to understand your thinking here. Are you claiming there are not various antecedents to "the tonic inhibition EMG signal"? Such as drugs, genetics, even diet?

"So why don't you tell us all how target panic can be cured immediately ... the global archery community will be forever grateful."

Well, we'd have to define TP for starters. Since snap shooting and short drawing is a huge part of most types of TP, I'll say yes, I think that can be fixed in seconds.

How? Well, most of the releases I invented are not susceptible to snap shooting or early release before anchor. So the first time someone with TP uses it, they will get to anchor.

Proper form and sequence can get much of the rest of TP solved, and it can be done in minutes, hours, days or months depending upon the ability of the archer.

When I went in for a review by an Olympic coach he had no suggestions for form correction, and I have never had an archery coach. Before everyone blows this out of proportion to self praise ad nauseum, let me say I think virtually any 10 yr. old kid have perfect form (or near it) in very short order. What is the big deal? It's very simple compared to say, pole vaulting or the golf swing. It's only when we are talking at the very highest levels that improvements are virtually required from consistent and lengthy training (e.g., top tournament level).

TP with the aiming portion is the hardest part and yes, more often that does take time, but it is a huge step to be able to get anchor and to have a correct shot sequence.

From: David A.
Date: 13-Aug-19




As far as perfecting proper from per above (this is not about curing TP per se) Ready, set, go:

square or slightly open stance: 1 minute hand placement using a bow that actually has a good grip: one minute low bow shoulder: 1 minute-one hour pelvic tilt: not necessary 3 point anchor: one hour-one month use of nonmechanic release: one hour-one month use of sight: one hour-one month expansion: one hour-one month

This is assuming bow weight and bow mass are appropriate. That is usually the stumbling block along with tuning. And if you don't have that, you may never have good form/results.

Excuse the digression...

From: David A.
Date: 13-Aug-19




add: shot sequence: one hour-one month.

From: 1buckurout
Date: 13-Aug-19




Curious Hedge. What medication are you on to "fix" your target panic?

If you don't have target panic or never delt with it, why even post on a TP thread?

From: Babysaph
Date: 13-Aug-19




Ok here is the deal. No one knows what causes target panic and there is no cure. You can only treat he symptoms. Case closed. I've never seen anyone beat it

From: K Cummings
Date: 13-Aug-19




Years ago I suffered from TP, but I finally broke down and bought a more expensive brand.

Haven’t had a problem since.

KPC

From: Live2hunt
Date: 13-Aug-19




Exactly Babysaph.

From: dean
Date: 13-Aug-19




"You can only treat he symptoms. Case closed. I've never seen anyone beat it" I did, so did a recurve shooter that stopped by, a compound shooter and my hunting buddy. I can shoot fast, slow or mix it up. My buddy was ready to give up, his game shooting ability is as good as anyone that i have ever seen, now. People here are defending their TP like a drug addiction. My neighbor has target panic in the bedroom, he takes one of those pills. so must conclude that cheap hotdogs and diet Mountain Dew cause TP.

From: Babysaph
Date: 13-Aug-19




Now I havnt seen anyone beat it but guys that used Jimmy's method say they have. Ask Dave Mitchell.

From: badgerman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-Aug-19




Todd what did you start---You must be shaking your head wondering what the "hell are most of these people talking about". Baa Baa black sheep have you any wool yes sir yes sir three bags full. Is that what target panic is Todd? Joel

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 13-Aug-19




Not sure why people have to suffer from it to discuss it. Oncologists aren't required to have cancer.

From: DanaC
Date: 13-Aug-19




How loud does your snake squeak? We got just the thing... ;-)

From: 1buckurout
Date: 13-Aug-19




No, but it's a good idea to have an oncologist that actually knows something about cancer before he offers advice or treatments.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 13-Aug-19




That's why we have Phil instead of the guys forcefully guessing.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-Aug-19




Is Phil and Oncologist. I have suffered from this disease for years and to keep my sanity I decided to treat the symptoms. I have tried it all. When I saw Olympians using clickers I thought WTH. Never looked back

From: David McLendon
Date: 13-Aug-19




Fear, self doubt, thinking, over thinking, worrying, about your fear of failure, about your self doubt and worrying that you are overthinking and thumbing through your sequence if you have one. Learn to quiet your mind and focus, start down that road by focusing on your breathing.

From: Babysaph
Date: 13-Aug-19




Tried all of that. Only the clicker helped

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 13-Aug-19




Phil is a Yippist.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 14-Aug-19




Target panic must be dealt with at its source. It is a mental issue - and anything short of dealing with it there does mean it can come back. Anything short of fixing it mentally means it can and probably will return.

You can’t buy your way out of it, or practice your way out of it. You must recognize it- then deal with it and eliminate it. Then you will be able to enjoy archery without fear of it returning.

1990. That was a tough year for me. Thanks to some time with Dr. Wyatt Woodsmall at my archery range, a mental coach, I’ve never again worried about it. Google him. NLP. Nuero Linguistic programming. He showed me a way to be at top performance in any venue and with any audience.

Let me say it again. Target panic begins in the mind. You must deal with it there.

Frank

From: David A.
Date: 14-Aug-19




STAY CALM! It's not a life or death situation for you!

From: Phil
Date: 14-Aug-19




Frank ... tell how you know that target panic is all in the mind ... think of this as an evidence based discussion ... show us the evidence that's allowed you to come to your opinion

From: Phil
Date: 14-Aug-19




Oh and Frank ... before you start quoting NLP techniques, let me just show you a quote from the Meta review from the British Psychological Society

" ... It’s true that a minority of psychologists are trained in neurolinguistic programming (NLP) and advocate its use, but it is a serious error to think that NLP is grounded in scientific findings in either psychology or neuroscience. In fact the system – which is usually marketed a way of achieving greater personal success – was developed by two self-help gurus in the 1970s who simply made up their own psychological principles after watching psychotherapists working with their clients. NLP is full of false claims that sound scientific-ish, such as that we each have a preferred “representational system” for thinking about the world, and that the best way to influence someone is to mirror their preferred system. A forensic trawl through all the claims made in NLP programmes found that the overwhelming majority are piffle.”

From: dean
Date: 14-Aug-19




Silly thing, pull a cord that bends a stick that makes another stick fly. Get it so far back and 'pop goes the weasel'. Maybe forms of TP exist in other places as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1AXReZgFxw

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 14-Aug-19




Phil Based on personal conversations with Al Henderson, an Olympic coach with a strong belief in the mental approach and my own personal experience plus working with Wyatt Woodsmall, again in person, all lead me to understand that target panic and the inability to be consistently at the top of your archery game were based on the mental side.

Most target archers have similar gear, similar practice and similar experience. The difference that separates the champions in archery and most sports is the ability to win mentally. A mental toughness. An ability to block out distractions, a bad shot or even target panic all are traits that gives those with their mental game together an advantage.

Not all of us read Phil, some of us personal experience or have had conversations with the people that wrote the books. I understand why Wyatt’s NLP May not be widely accepted by everyone in his circles but he is a brilliant and a successful man who’s widely respected by those he has worked With including some Olympic medal winners in different sports.

On a personal note, there was a time I could be shooting great. One local news station would show up, flip on their lights and my shooting would dip. I was focused on “don’t mess up they are filming you..”. After working with Wyatt I have been on CNN (millions of viewers), ESPN and even was taped by all six LA tv stations in one day. And all I was focused on was the baby aspirin and I nailed it. I’ve walked out to a crowd of 15,000 and nailed it- just like I was in our family indoor range.

You tend to debate/discuss on many of my threads but this is a subject that is close to me. I believe my personal experience and ability to overcome target panic in 1990 attest the ability of NLP to help target panic. The books you read or cite did nothing for my target panic. Al Henderson and Wyatt woodsmall did help. You can buy Henderson’s book, “Understanding Winning Archery” from Target Communications. Wyatt may also have things you can watch or buy.

I base what I say on personal experience.

Frank

From: Babysaph
Date: 14-Aug-19




Tell em Frank. If you can shoot those lil Aspirins you don't have target panic.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 14-Aug-19




Babysaph- I know plenty of archers (we all do) that can shoot 300 hundred indoors with 50 some x-rings and then they travel to a tournament and shoot a 285/300.

It’s not the accuracy as much as having the ability to be consistent under pressure. Having the mental toughness to control TP and other mental issues that can effect Archery is key.

Look at Tiger Woods golf game. What happened when he went through all the stress several years ago. His golf game suffered. He changed caddy’s. Changed clubs and changed his swing. Now he’s back on top but it took awhile.

In my humble opinion, Wyatt Woodsmall could have had him back on track without changing any of that. NLP works. Diver Greg Louganis worked with Wyatt. You’d have to ask him if NLP worked for him but I can tell you it worked for me and still does.

Frank

From: dean
Date: 14-Aug-19




This will be my last post. I have a little thing to report. I wanted to check what my point on would be with particular heavy arrows out of my Sunset Hill compared to another bow, so we went to a county park that has a bunch of targets on flat ground and an indoor range. My wife was thrilled with how well she shot her Hill today and thought it would be a good opportunity to test it against her NAT for cast with some nice tapered ancient cedars with Hunter's Heads on the stereo foam targets at longer ranges. There were a few compound shooters out. It was cool no wind and no bugs. The first thing they did was poke fun of us and made the general put downs, about the same as i read on here. They really enjoyed seeing the heavy arrow hit low at 50 yards on the first shot, but did not like the third fourth and fifth shot as all, they were on. Point on was about 48 yards with the heavy arrow. I was surprised how nice the heavy arrow flew out of both bows. I heard a couple snide comments when I stepped ahead a couple of yards. Then my wife took a few warmup shots at 15 yards with target points at the standard target. She was out shooting the two young women with compounds, that were shooting at same distance. They all started talking about too slow to kill anything, but did not seem to notice the accurate shots or realize that she was shooting over 11 grains per pound compared to their carbon straws. She moved over to the styro foam and asked what yard marker to try first for a point on test, one of the know it alls just sitting at the table smoking cigarettes and drinking beer, heard that and blurted out, "What difference would it make?" His wife told him to shut up. Point on with the Hill was 42 yards and 44 yards for the NAT with the same arrows. The first thing she said when we got back to the car, "What a bunch of conceded dumb asses!" I agreed, they are everywhere these days. Gone.





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