WELL, let's get this started.

Is there really cheating at Archery Events? I hear that some cheat, I really don't know.

Could it be that some that some might be a little envious of those that might just practice really hard and put the time it takes to be good at what they love to do.

At the Howard Hill Classic, I've heard grumblings of people that might be cheating.

I have also heard about other events where cheating may have happened as well.

Grumble all you want, but until someone has the guts to stand toe to toe with proof or witnesses about someone cheating, nothing can be done.

Some say two score card keepers is the solution, I'm not sure. If someone wants to cheat, they will find a way.

These events should be fun for everyone, serious competitors and those that just like to shoot against their friends.

Many people travel great distances to shoot for fun as well as competitively, and rumors of cheating never helps any event.

This is what I am proposing to do at the Howard Hill Classic and this may not be the solution either. The only true solution would to have a monitor for each group, that will never happen.

First, a three group minimum as always. If, there are only two that want to go out, THEIR SCORE WILL NOT COUNT IN THE COMPETITION, PERIOD!!

Second, the group score keeper is responsible and must sign the back of everyone's score card, along with the names of two other participants from their group. If this criteria is not met, THESE SCORE CARDS WILL NOT BE COUNTED!!

In the future at the Howard Hill Classic, if someone accuses somebody of cheating, they better be ready to call the cheater out in front of me, OR, just keep quiet.

Terry Harris

Solution. Worry about yourself not others. Did you come to enjoy some shooting or to kick somebodies ass.

Al, I don't think Terry is the guy we have to worry about. Some people may come to the event to 'kick somebodiesass' and that's how they enjoy the event. That's no solution. I'm a little more proactive. If you're caught castration is the penality. LOL.

To me it sounds like Terry has skin in the game and is worried about attendence. I quit handing in my score years and years ago, because of this.

I believe the only way to stop it is a shoot off. You take 10% or 25% (depending on attendence - you don't want it too big) of the top scores and last day you shoot off in front of everyone. It becomes an event.

Bowmania

"Is there really cheating at Archery Events?" That seems like a silly question to me. That's just how some folks roll.

Lets phrase the question this way.... Who here believes nobody cheats at archery events?

It happens. To what degree depends on the type of shoot, the rules, and how or if they're enforced.

There has always been cheating at these events and other hunting competition.... such as game scoring entries.

Avoid it all, keep real bow and arrow hunting and competition personal. Leave the scored target shooting to the professionals with policed scoring, otherwise shoot for fun and forget about the cheaters.

I put on dozens of night time 3D tournaments on a ball field here in Florence in the 80s and 90s.

This was a mixed shot, mostly wheels with a few factory sponsored shooters. The sponsored guys were the worst to cheat because the more wins they turned into the bow sponsors the more gear they got for free, they all cheated, all of them.

We had one kid who wanted to be sponsored and was turning in some great scores that we knew he couldn't shoot honestly.

His best friend was arrow straight, a great shot and had enough of Jimmy's cheating. Big Steve wrote Jimmy's actual score tagget by target on the palm of his had as they pulled arrows during a tournament.

Jimmy turned in a winning score and stepped up for his trophy when his name was called. Big steve stood up and said in a loud voice "Jimmy you cheated, I wrote down your actual score on my hand and here it is".

Jimmy denied everything, his wife started crying, and they stomped off. He stayed away from the tournaments for a while and gradually came back, never to cheat again.

That was 30 years ago, Big Steve manages a sporting goods store today. He was shooting on a national level but quit competitive archery because he said he couldn't beat the pencil whipped scores of his competitors. He is still my friend and hero today.

No matter what the sport or event there will always be cheaters. Its just a fact of life.

When i used to compete in offhand rifle and was on top of it, I'd shoot every event i could get to. At one club a couple guys began winning everything, but they would not shoot at other clubs nearby. We soon learned that their buddy in the scoring room was part of it. Nothing to do but move on from that club.

I think, though that most people are honest and just out to enjoy the sport. It only takes one, though to spoil it for everyone. Just because someone shoots better than i thought possible doesn't mean they're cheating--- something to keep in mind.

The PSAA and I'm sure the NFAA requires a mix at targets on regional or state sponsored tournaments. In other words, If four of one group or family comes to a shoot, they are split up and shoot with others....usually 4 to a target. One person is designated score keeper and another writes down the score...not the same family/group. Others look on while the scoring is done and before arrows are pulled so it remains about as honest as you can make it. It has to be policed from within and we rarely had issues on the field or target rounds from back in the da

Then you will have folks who think someone cheated just because they shot a higher score; sandbagged, etc. Cheaters are around but they are in the minority and you do the best you can to control it. It's not reason to not compete. If you have an honest concern you need to go to the principals and let them know. Competition is not a bad thing and never has been as it makes folks better. Every other sport know is about competition, whether it's individual or team. Poor sports will be found out normally and again, they are in the minority.

If there is money or prestige involed there will be cheaters. I like Bowmania's solution.

I kinda agree with bowmania also. When we shot we would keep our cards and most of time would never turn them in. We were there to have fun and get better. It's is what it is. Some guys are just damm good shots and they get high scotes. As my dad told me. Success breeds jealousy and jealousy starts rumors. Unless your sure 100% then keep mouth shut. I've kinda lived by those words. Just my take

I sure wish I could go back and edit the typos out of my post, just another senior moment I guess.

I shoot, and I'm competitive, as in, I like to come in first. I don't always, and when someone out-shoots me, I'm happy for him. No amount of 'money or prestige' is worth ones' honor and good name.

Not familiar with other organizations but IBO uses double scoring, both scorers for a group must agree on score. Plus they break up 'friends' groups and squad you with folks you don't know so well. ('Trouble' with that is, after a day shooting together you find yourself with new friends ;-) )

It all comes down to 'sportsmanship', and I'm old-school enough to think 'He's a good sport' is high compliment.

Yes, cheating happens all the time, and it's not just modern equipment shooters. Guys counting the steps of the group in front walking to the target, see this a lot. More back east then out west because of the terrain. A lot of cheating starts with the pencil, marking wrong scores on a friends score card. It's this thing of needing to be better, the needing to be seen and known. In today's society, people wanna be known. Wining 3D shoots, shooting the biggest animal, shooting the most animals. Anything to seem important. It's usually when shooters are flighted that the cheaters get exposed.

Must be a regional thing. Around here, and among Navajo, when a score is close the shooter never asks for more than honest score.

"Cheating" is a way of life in America. Studies have proven it. It begins early in school and is so common that it would be extremely naive to believe it doesn't occur at archery shoots. Personal integrity, now that's what's rare.

Guys set up courses to have a degree of difficulty-like from the stake to the 10 ring is a limb. Shoot over or under. Some guys just shoot from where they want- no part of the body against the stake-cheating- and turn in a score. Counting steps, yep. I actually saw a guy in the group before us, kneel down and point to the 10 ring soo the guy in our group-wheelbow-could hit the 10. Just like horn porn do-anything it-takes-for-a-big-rack, people have to cut corners. Just the way it is these days.

In Europe we have double scoring and mixed groups to reduce the chances.

Early 2000's I was winning Longbow at UK Nationals and a small group started saying I was cheating, my bow wasn't legal (I had it inspected by officals) and I wasn't shooting Instinctively (no such rule existed), the main reason was that I was beating the Recurves and these guys didn't just belive it was possible, it went on for 2-3 years until a couple of other Longbows stepped up and started outshooting the Recurves as well. All these guys were Hill style shooters and took exception to my 21st Century Edge, my main competitor shot a Hill style bow never had an issue with me and he was one of the guys that stepped up to outshoot Recurves, which is an awesome achievement with a 65# Hill style bow.

Some will cheat for what ever reason.3d events, Bass tournaments,etc.etc.

Personally I'm a fan of the shoot off format. Take the top 3 to 5 from each division, and put 'em out there head to head. Seperates that real from the not real pretty quick.

Good responses folks, NOW MY TAKE on some of them.

At the HH Classic, I do take 1st round score cards and on Saturday evening I have a Championship Shoot Down.

Ya might cheat to get there or cheat for the entire event, but you can't cheat in front of the crowd watching.

As far as two score keeping, such as the IBO or any other archery organization. That's not infallible either.

Let's say that a couple of people are sponsored by the same Bowyer or company and they decide to be the score keepers while they are shooting in the same group. Are you telling me this might not happen, YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED.

I do have skin in the game, I also want everyone to have a great time. Like I said earlier, SPEAK UP WITH PROOF OR SHUT UP.

Eric, I did the same thing when I was ASTB President, and the guy I caught with proof, went and withdrew his card before I called him out.

Terry Harris

Been to many back years ago where guys cheated. I don't compete now so I don't know. If youncheat for fifty cent trophy you have problems.

BigStriper. Because not everone turns in a legitimate score.

I can't speak for everyone, but the small group of guys that I usually shoot in a group with just "kind of" keep score, and we usually screw that up. Our objective is to finish the course with no lost or broken arrows. The main thing is how good we shoot in our group and everybody sees it.Sometimes we turn in cards and sometimes we don't. We mainly go to rag each other and have fun shooting. That is with the TBA in Arkansas.

I've only shot in one shoot that kept score, the IBO Trad World and someone else kept score. It would of been pretty hard to cheat because you had to shoot with other shooters you didn't know.

Be sure before you join the gossip mongers. I've been on the receiving end of jealous peoples mouths. I think more accusing goes on than cheating. Because of it I haven't scored a shoot in over 20 years. After it finally got to me that I was being accused constantly I had a club president go out and score me. After during the awards were passed out I gave mine back and burned some ears. I haven't competed since. Mouthing ruined for me something I loved doing. Ok rants done, lol.

Look guys, most people I've met in this wonderful sport are as honest as the day is long, IMO.

It is a shame that there are a small few that have to win at all cost to make themselves feel good.

They're the ones that have to look at themselves in the mirror, but unfortunately, they don't see themselves as cheaters. Again, that is a pity.

Terry Harris

Well, at our tourney's, groups are usually friends, relatives and such, but w/ designate 2 scorers for each group,and competition being fierce, there is no cheating by the regulars. But, there are family groups that cheat, and everyone knows it. We always put a "ringer" w/ them, (designated scorer), and if they protest, their scores are not counted even if turned in. Only way to do it fairly! And once found out, they usually don't return.

Terry, First of all, I appreciate your efforts. 'Magic pencils' have been around for a long time. I suspect less than 10% are involved. So how about this.

Have everyone who scores in the top 10% participate in a publicly viewed shoot off with an official score keeper. Let's say 3 targets. Lowest score(s) eliminated. May take several rounds from different stakes, but will work. Instead of a numeric score, put a dot on each target, let's say an inch in diameter. Arrow distance to the dot is the 'score'. Lowest total distance on three targets wins.

I’ve seen people cheat in events where there is absolutely NOTHING on the line.

Don’t know what drives them. I DQ’d a guy in the Minneapolis Aquatennial Triathlon about 25 years ago; what got my attention was him cutting the corner at the swim buoy, but then I noticed that his swim cap didn’t match the rest of the people starting in his heat... Two or three heats later when everybody else in a blue cap started, I paddled over to a judge and pointed the guy out.

It was kinda fun watching him check out his time and seeing a big DQ next to his name.

But you get over on BowSite and there are all kinds of guys who seem to admire the kind of people who say “If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough.”

Think about THAT; these guys seem to be publicly advocating for cheating in what is theoretically a non-competitive activity. Kind of hard to admire any of them, so mostly I don’t.

I feel for you, Terry. It’s gotta be hard to run an enjoyable event when you have to deal with that kind o’ crap. If there’s anything really on the line, I guess if it’s a problem then you’d have to have Official Scorers accompany the finalists in a shoot-off round. Or just have enough background on who the contenders are that they go out under Official Scorers to begin with.

Thanks for your response George.

But as most know, I'm not a club and have as much on my plate as I can handle.

Again, this was just an opinion piece and what I will do at my event. It may not be a perfect solution, but I can only say that I'm trying to peddle as fast as I can, Lol.

Terry Harris

Terry the biggest problem I have witnessed is how scores are called. Some call it good if it touches the line. Which line? Some call it good if it moves the line. Some if it cuts the line. I believe that if some part of the arrow is not inside the line then it is 100% out. I have shot with a bunch of guys that used one standard for themselves and something totally different for the other shooters. Old Jerry Hill had it figured out with the steel rings. I have now used up all of my Give a S### about this. By the way a great shoot as always my friend.

Onehair, in other shooting sports, the general rule is that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. I use this principle when calling scores and have had shooters say, no, that's an eight, not a ten. I won't argue the point.

Just treat others as you'd like to be treated. Someone who favors himself over others, well, sooner or later the word will get out.

I was at a 300 round once & my friend was assigned scoring duties for a young woman. Before we started a guy asked my friend if he would mind switching score cards with someone else's. My friend though nothing of it & switched. Later he told me he noticed that the guy was the young woman's boyfriend & that he thought the guy was cheating on her score card.

It was never reported or proven one way or the other & she didn't win her class anyway. But yes, I do believe some people are capable of cheating. Winning any competition by cheating does not give me any feeling of accomplishment but some people simply have no morals or ethics.

Box Call, Yep.

In fact Gold Tip, and maybe some others as well, made large diameter carbon shafts for the same purpose. Gold Tip called theisr X Cutters. Not sure if they are still being made.

Still made and sold by touting potentially higher scores than skinnier shafts.

I don't shoot at events so I've got no pony in the race but I like Bowmania's solution. But OTOH, by the last day many have gone home. Probably not even knowing how they placed.

Cheaters or simply called cheaters because of their shooting ability???

I can think of 3 different shooters that have been called cheaters until the accusers actually got their ass handed to them when they shot together in the same group.

Maybe cheating does take place but I'd like to think not :)

Shooting off the stake.Calling a line cut,when it clearly isnt..Using a mulligan and taking the first score,when the mulligan was less.His arrow deflected mine,from a 10 to a 5,so im taking the 10...shooting 2 arrows on a 1 shot target...Scoring the high score,when i see them hunting arrows on several targets and i have their arrows as proof..Just a few of the examples i have witnessed..But,i digress,maybe im not up to snuff on proper scoring and have been cheating myself..

The ones who do are only hurting themselves as it should be.

In my almost 4 decades of competition shooing, I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually witnessed cheating.

I can also count on one hand the number of times I have suspected cheating.

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've personally been accused of cheating.

(1) Bust the groups.

(2) Issue two score cards per competition shooter.

(3) Have two people per group keeping score.

(4) Do not mix groups with competitor, and non competitor shooters.

That will keep folks honest, and in my opinion is the way it should be for all competitors.

It greatly reduces the numbers of both actual cheats, and accusations of cheats.

If they aren't there to compete, then don't give them an official score card.

Just my 2 cents.

Rick

Interesting topic. I don't know that i have ever seen anyone cheat at a match, i reckon it happens some though, but i seriously doubt anywhere near as much as some people would like to think. Most times i hear "so and so" cheated, so and so didn't, and the accuser tends to be a bad shot and just wants to make excuses. Oh yeah, i go to matches to try to kick all the asses i can, most times that ain't all of them, but generally it is quite a few. Shooting "just for fun" is no fun to me.

I want to shoot with the best shooter at the shoot! It definitely brings my shooting to another level :) I like to compete and never call my score. I rarely even walk to the target. Sometimes I’m on fire, other times I shoot not so well. We all have good days and bad so like said, if you don’t have proof you shouldn’t be accusing anyone. Be happy for the winners! I have met some great folks at these events and I won’t be deterred by the thought of someone cheating in to win a plaque or belt buckle. Keep up the great work Mr Terry Harris

If there is money or good prizes involved, you can count on it!

This is a tough topic. I have been shooting at 3d events for over 40 years. I have to say that I have heard, and participated in discussions of people cheating from the beginning. It happens, people talk about it. I am sitting here thinking back over time and to be honest, I am not sure I can not say for sure that I can remember anyone I had shot with at one time or another did not discuss the topic. I am not saying people are being mean or evil, it is just something that is talked about just like they talk about the condition of the course, targets, scoring rings, event rules, etc. Thinking someone is cheating and proving it are two different things. Most people talked about O.J. Simpson and most said he was guilty, but proving it did not happen. What Eric said is about the only way to actually catch someone, it is nearly impossible. I will add that if a person is a very good shooter, turns in very good scores, someone is going to think that person is cheating. Some can't believe anyone could shoot that well. We all have heard things like that. Double scoring helps, but I saw more than one group at your event where one person was keeping both sets of cards, they said it was too inconvenient to have two do it. Is that cheating? If the scores were accurate, it was a violation of the event rules, but is it cheating if they gained nothing? The only way to be sure the best shooter wins is the shoot-off system. A person can't cheat there. Assigning groups is not convenient because the start times may not work for everyone and not being able to shoot with friends is not as much fun. My bet is you would lose participation if that is required. Are you going to get people to stop talking about those they think are cheating, I doubt it. If you want my opinion about improving 3D events, it would be my suggestion to not worry yourself with this kind of talk and look at changing some of the outdated rules or consider making some changes in the classes. An example might be, I know most people would not like it, but I see no reason for separate classes for longbows and recurves. The newer recurves shoot every bit as well as a recurve. I understand a difference in classes for selfbows or maybe even the Hill style bow, but the modern longbow, shoots like a recurve. As you and I have discussed in the past I do not believe there should be a rule telling me where I have to grip the string. I compare that to me telling another shooter he has to anchor just like me, no reason for such rules. If a shooter wants to string walk or use a fixed crawl, let him. I agree with rules against "equipment" that improves scores like a mechanical release, a sight, or a 3' stabilizer. All of those things help the shooter mechanically. I do not believe an elevated rest helps a person shoot better. It could help arrow flight but not the shooters scoring. The same can be said for a plunger, it helps arrow flight but does not help a shooter hold steady or improve their release. Too many of these rules are hold overs from conflicts back when compounds came on the scene. I think it is time to take a fresh look at all of this. Keep up the good work with your events, you do a good job.

Well said John.

As has been said, there are probably more accusations of cheating than actual incidents of cheating. There are a few jealous mediocrities - in any sport - who would sooner tear down a real winner than elevate their own performance by hard work.

Real sportsmanship is doing your best and accepting the results - while resolving to do better next time.

We had one guy at all the traditional 3d shoots that used a three pin sight, and had another guy ranging all the targets for him. I had his ass disqualified on numerous occasions.

Well no matter what you do your gonna have people that will cheat. I don’t go to any of those so called Big Shoots so I don’t care. I just shoot locally and don’t keep score. I have seen folks that are excellent shots and heard people say they cheated when they didn’t.

One of the reasons I like flight contests. We had a person quite a while ago that swapped arrows between rounds, etc., but now all equipment is kept by the committee and handed out at the shooting line. Never understood what a win while cheating means to the offender? The thrill of stealing from others? I hate thieves and whiners with the same passion.

And as to the "shoot off" approach.

What are you measuring, skill, or the ability to focus under pressure?

Realistically you will have guys that can shoot great with only 2 or 3 guys around, and who will fall apart if they're forced to shoot in front of a crowd of onlookers. Still good shots, but not on stage.

No perfect answer unless you have a shoot official at each animal doing the scoring.

Dealing with fakes, cheaters and liars is part of life unfortunately. It's a shame they have to be that way.

The group I shoot with just had this discussion while shooting the league shoot at our club the other day. When we (our group) score a shaft touching the line for the next highest score, the shaft has to actually be making a indentation on the line from the lower score side, no matter how small, and at least 2 people have to agree with it, to call it the next higher score. I have seen those of us in our group (the shooter of the arrow) count it as the lower score or say someone else call it. That is how my group does it. Having said that I have also seen people just walk up and say "Close enough" to give someone the next highest score. When you look at it, it is clearly not touching/moving the line, to us that is clearly cheating or allowing cheating. "I think" at the registration desk (especially at big shoots) it should be CLEARLY defined (with pictures) how a line shot should be called to get the next highest score (by the Shoot's standards), and at least 2 people in the group (not the shooter) have to agree with those types of calls for the score. The term "Close Enough" don't get it. Using the SHOOT's standards defines how those shots should be scored. How my group normally scores a line shot, may not be acceptable at another Shoot.

Sipsey River, you mentioned a shoot off system. Well to get into that Shoot Off, you still have to be in, let say, 1st to 5th place, which can be separated only by a few points (maybe even one point). Well if someone fudged on a few line shots on the coarse to qualify for the shoot off position and you had someone who didn't. Then who really should have qualified for the shoot off if there was only 1-2 point difference? The person who didn't fudge points. I do understand what you are getting at with a Shoot Off for over all winners. It is what people do on the coarse, so they can get into that Shoot Off, that irritates me. You also mentioned arrow flight. An elevated rest and plunger button (which fine tunes the arrow) can improve arrow flight enough (also allow curled vanes to be used) it can make a difference in impact, enough to push you into the next highest scoring ring. Where if you weren't using them and shooting off of the shelf, you might impact in the lower scoring ring, because it took you arrow longer to straighten out, losing some speed. You are right, it doesn't improve the shooters abilities. It strictly levels the playing field when separating equipment when Trophies or Money is on the line. I am not picking on you with this next comment because others feel the same way as you do. The Eagle Eye at Denton, you have mentioned in the past you feel you should be able to compete in the finals with what ever shaft material you want to, because you normally don't shoot wood arrows. There are reasons why wood arrows are used for the finals and they have been discussed. I am using this example "strictly" as a comparison here. If an elevated rest and plunger button shouldn't make a difference in a class, because it doesn't make someone a better shooter, then the same can be said for the wood arrows in the Eagle Eye competition. Woods do not decrease your ability as a shooter, or make you a worse shooter when using them. In that competition though Money is prize for winning, instead of a Trophy, and Wood Arrows is the Only limiting factor rule in the finals, bow and equipment used doesn't matter. Every Shoot/Competition has its own rules, for Sponsor's own reasons. If we shooters want to compete in any Shoot, then we agree to do so by the rules laid before us. Other wise we just shoot the Shoot to have a good time and take a NO SCORE when we register.

Yes there will be always those that try and cheat. Hopefully there are others in the group they are with, that won't let them. DANNY

I hear ya Larry... Thats why i decided to quit keeping score and just have fun..That way,whatever they do,doesnt affect me....Besides,i have trophies,that have never seen the wall,,stuffed in a box somewhere..What use,do i have for any more of em..Its just not important to me anymore,to compete or be recognized for it..

Even with two scorers I've seen the system beat. Kinda strange how they can go out on a course and not know each other. Then ride home in the same car.

Traxx, I had the figures changed on mine and made them into 4-H and FFA trophy's. The only one I'll probably have when I die is this buckle.

I’ve personally witnessed two cheats on a 3 D course here in Australia. Both grubs. End of story.

Honour is everything.

WPA.

I’d put LIARS right up there with thieves and whiners.

One way I deal with the problem is I set a goal for myself, be it a number to reach such as a 225 or a percentage. In past couple of years I try to get to 85-90% pf possible score. So I am competing with myself. If I shoot a 78% and win, I am not as happy as I am if I shoot a 92% and finish 2nd. If I focus on my goal, it does not matter what score someone else turns in. I like to win, I want to win, but my overall, my goal is to shoot the best I can, to keep improving. My old age, weakening eyesight and bad shoulders are catching up to me, but I still work on getting better.

I only shoot for my personal best and to collect stories of each event. I seldom turn in a card at 3 D events. In the SCA all scoring is on your honor and that means a lot to most of us.

My kids shoot NASP in school. The shooters (2 per target) are required to keep each other’s score and sign off as the scorer. There are line judges to help settle disputed scores at each end. It isn’t perfect but does keep the would be cheaters in check. The difficulty with applying this to 3-d shots is having a judge...but if kids in middle and high school can figure this out...you’d have to think adults could maybe apply something of this sort at 3-d events

Just my 2 cents

I shot for score years ago. Then I got smart and decided to have fun. I saw my share of sandbagging, knocking over a guys bow, bending a guys arrows, etc. All for a medal or ribbon. I did enter a “triple crown” last year but and kept score but I knew I wasn’t going to win because I wasn’t going to attend all 4 shoots.

why would archery be any different to other sports. Cheating occurs in the olympics, Swimming, Tennis, Cycling and athletics just to name a few other sports. i have seen it in archery and have thought about the answer once or twice. i have the answer. My problem is that the solution is not practical and it requires man power. At each target there is an adjudicator. The adjudicator scores each arrow and then scribes the score onto the scoring card. That way no archer can doodle the score.(the pen has been known to be mightier than the arrow)

I've never gone to a competition. It's enough for me to compete with myself. And due to injuries, to make it into the back yard and back to shoot. I don't travel. But I do shoot a lot and I post pics of my shooting, usually on a Facebook group. I usually shoot 30 to 50 yards. I've had a lot of perfect shots, even out to 50 yards. I'm sure some people think I cheat or fake the photos, since they don't believe someone can shoot like I do at times. I get repeated requests to post videos of me shooting. I suspect that's so they can see if I'm really making the shots I show. Well, I don't like taking videos. I shoot up to 200 arrows at a time. I never know when I'll get a great group. Managing the taking of videos would just be a complete distraction. Plus, most of the time my Internet connection is too slow to upload videos.

I do, however, really enjoy taking photos of my shooting. They are like my trophies. (Instead of stuffed heads). I enjoy posting and sharing with friends and those who might be inspired, also. If someone thinks I'm cheating, that's their problem. Not mine.

I did this yesterday, from 45 yards with a 45# 1962 Kodiak Special I just got. Real, or fake? The feeling I had after shooting that is real enough for me.

I like the responses of people who go to events and don't keep score, just do it for the fun of it. Scoring is fine also for those who like it. But whether scored or not, we really shoot for the fun and pleasure of it, don't we? I've played plenty of sports earlier in my life, where no one kept score. It's sort of liberating.

I have nobody to shoot against, so I can cheat and lie and blaspheme all day and I always win:) I watch all the major international archery competitions on TV, and I really don't like that touch the line, get the higher value rule that they all use. Someone's arrow is a sixteenth of an inch from dead centre and scores a ten. Someone elses arrow is two inches away touching the outside of the line and scores the same. Doesn't seem right to me. JayInOz

JayInOz, very funny. I agree with you on competition targets. I don't understand scoring anyway, but dead center and 2" away are not the same. I make up my own rules. I shoot at foam balls most of the time that are from 1 to 3" in diameter. Usually 1.7 or 2". No concentric rings. But as Ferguson said, the center of a beach ball is the same size as the center of an aspirin tablet. My rule is that I call it a perfect shot if the arrow is within half a shaft diameter of the center of the ball. No one has contested my rule, but sometimes the deer don't like it that I'm shooting while they're trying to nibble the bales.

"And as to the "shoot off" approach. What are you measuring, skill, or the ability to focus under pressure? "

I'd say "the ability to focus under pressure" is a large part of skill. Maintaining your 'cool' is important when shooting targets for score or drawing down on game.

My money is on the guy who *thrives* on pressure, to take the day - or the venison.

"I shoot up to 200 arrows at a time. I never know when I'll get a great group. "

Heck, if you cherry-pick your groups, and only post the best ones, you're fudging results.

If I put six shots in the target, and one is in the X, do I pull the other five and show you the 'great' shot? If I shoot one great group out of 12, does that make me a great archer? (I can hear my buddies laughing now!)

A course of competition, or better yet shooting multiple matches, gives you a statistically valid measure of your ability. You might not be so happy about that!

The ability to focus under pressure can be a useful skill, sure, but isn't necessarily a large part, or an inherent part, of SHOOTING skill. Most shooting isn't done under any such pressure.

The best shot in front of a big competitive crowd, or a big buck, may not be the best shot without them.

Also, take 'averages' with a grain of salt.

My last 5 competitions (IBO) I shot 200, 237, 203, 204, 207.

Unless you drop that flukey high score, the number you get for 'average' is bogus. Next week (CT) I'll be happy with a 206, very happy over 210. Also scared that Wild Bill will come off 'retirement' ;-)

Further, we do occasionally exceed what's expected of us. Just because a guy who 'averages' a score around X turns in a score of X+25, doesn't mean he cheated. Sometimes you do actually have a great day. Accusing him of 'pencil magic' is sour grapes.

" The best shot in front of a big competitive crowd, or a big buck, may not be the best shot without them. "

Two questions - how would we know, and why would we care? ;-)

I maintain that the best shot is the guy who can prove it. ymmv

Back in the 50's and 60's they use to take the top two freestyle archers and the top two instinctive archers from the mornings round and they shot together in the afternoon round. Can't imagine there was too much cheating going on back them. There use to be "honor among men" back then.

In today's world there seems to be a me, me, me attitude even in archery. I would never shoot for score again as I know my limitations. This is what archery has come to since the equipment has gotten more technical, IE: the compound.

I would have to ask what prize an archer would win that would warrant score keepers to walk around with them and keep score.

Throw your pencils and cards away and go out and have fun.

I have a friend that shoots a compound at the pro level & has basically given up competitive 3d due to fudging on score cards I personally have never really cared for competitive events but fully could understand putting in all that work to be outdone by someone beying dishonest at scoring there shots

The IBO, and ASA have it figured out.

Their formats work, and aren't anything egregious to do.

Rick

Rick, as I said earlier, if someone wants to cheat, they'll find a way.

I know you're an IBO shooter, but even the IBO and the ASA aren't infallible.

Terry Harris

[[[ "Rick, as I said earlier, if someone wants to cheat, they'll find a way.

I know you're an IBO shooter, but even the IBO and the ASA aren't infallible.

Terry Harris" ]]]

Nothing is infallible Terry, but their formats do work to alleviate most of the problems, and those formats are easy to implement.

I can tell you this - I've heard a lot more grumbling about cheating/cheaters at competitive shoots (without) a tight format, than I have at competitive shoots (with) a tight format.

No matter how you slice it, or dice it - if you offer any kind of trophy, or prize, it then becomes a competitive event whether that was the intent, or not.

I've known several events over the years, that just started out as a rendezvous, and just for fun. Those events offered prizes/trophies, and those prizes/trophies eventually became so (coveted), that the organizers had to finally face the FACT, that their event was indeed a "competitive" event, which needed some formatting of rules in order to at least somewhat keep a handle on things.

If you are going to hold a "competitive" event, then you need to do everything you feasibly can to provide a level playing field. If not, then just let them have at it, and offer no reward other than the opportunity to show up, and shoot with your buddies.

I'm not an IBO shooter. I'm just a shooter. Heck I seldom compete anymore.

Rick

I have personally witnessed cheating. I was scoring a competitor at one of our shoots - he was shooting compound freesyle (adjustable sight, loooong stabilizers. He was good but he wasn't competitive.... later, when I saw the scores put up on our webstie, he had won first place for Bowhunter Freesyle (fixed pins, short stabilizer) - after I handed him the score cards, he changed his classification and then turned them in.

Its pretty hard to cheat when someone is watching don't you think.

Now sandbaggers you better believe that's current!!!!!!!

I have seen that a lot as a matter of fact we had them in our group. Gee I wonder who that was. No not me never good enough to be able to sand bag.LOL

If someone has to cheat then let them have it if there is not any real money at stake it can be a teaching lesson because that's all they get and have to live with it the rest of their life. Would you want that on your back. Maybe you can handle it?

Anyone who has slain dragons knows what the monkey cost.

In big money tournaments there's always spotters usually and referees so its cut down on because of the stakes involved.

I knew some cheating that went on in fishing tournaments where hundreds of thousands were involved but then came the polygraphs that eliminated the nonsense.

"I have personally witnessed cheating. I was scoring a competitor at one of our shoots - he was shooting compound freesyle (adjustable sight, loooong stabilizers. He was good but he wasn't competitive.... later, when I saw the scores put up on our webstie, he had won first place for Bowhunter Freesyle (fixed pins, short stabilizer) - after I handed him the score cards, he changed his classification and then turned them in."

This is tournament management problem. Normally your shooting class is decided at the entrance, not when you give your card. IF you as group who is organizing the shooting don't know what to do to prevent these types of things educate yourself before starting to say all are potentially cheating.

Dana C, I never said I was a great archer. I don't fudge results. I usually mention how many arrows I got to get a particular group. And what my struggles were, or what I learned, in the process. I don't shoot in competitions, just for my own fun and pleasure. If it takes me 200 arrows to get a great group, that's way better than shooting 200 arrows and never having a perfect shot or a great group. I've been shooting for 5 years since not shooting for over 40 years, and I keep improving. That's my competition... to keep improving. I'm nowhere near consistent enough to shoot great every time I release an arrows. So, even if I went to a competition I would probably do poorly. You're judging me by the model of competitive shooting. That's not the world I live in. However, how many archers could get a group like the one I showed, even if they shot 10,000 arrows? I don't know but I suspect most archers never would. And BTW that was the 3rd group of the day.

I really don't see that a persons ability to focus under pressure in a "shoot off" is an issue either. If the guy can't focus and shoot as well in that format as he did out in a group, oh well. Every major competitive sport (and let's not forget that's all that target archery is) puts the participants in a siruarion where thay are competing under the pressure of a crowd. Why should this type of archery be different? If it is that big a deal then take the top 3 and go shoot the course again in a shoot off with 2 judges/score keepers. If "the guy" can't be competitive in either of those formats, he would be the first person I would take a second look at.

Great shooting Shandorweiss. I don't know of anyone here that can shoot like that.

Most of the cheating i have seen is the use of prohibited equipment in the form of binos or rang finders. I shoot with a group of trad guys and we ask each other if an arrow is close to the line. When one of us wins we split the prize money with all the trad guys that shoot. The long shot competition is where most of the cheating comes in. It seem most of the compound shooters in our area cant shoot with out knowing the range . That is not a shot at compound shooters in general it is just how i see it a local events.

Thank you, Jack.

Why we quit giving trophies 25 years ago always the last few score cards turned in,except for the kids.

"after I handed him the score cards, he changed his classification"

IBO Rules IV / B / e

"Scorecards will be checked at the end of each course. Each group's scorecards must be turned in together by the entire group."

"It seem most of the compound shooters in our area can't shoot with out knowing the range. "

Same holds for gappers, stringwalkers and facewalkers. Estimating range accurately is a large part of 3D competition, whether you're using sights or any of several unsighted aiming methods. Even 'instinctive' shooters usually need to be aware that a certain shot is out near maximum range.

There is a lot of growth in, and push for 'known yardage' 3D shoots, probably more so for compounds than stickbows.

Makes me glad I shoot in the 'old farts' class ;-)

Even a good instinctive shooter judges yardage subconsciously and fixes his bow position accordingly.

Known yardage is huge and the way of the future with compounds. I shoot ASA and with the exception of traditional, no unknown class does well. I have never been to a trad shoot that allows range finders, but all i go to allow binoculars, so just cause someone is using binos, it doesn't mean they are cheating. I think sometimes the "he is cheating" talk comes from people thinking the know the rules, instead of actually knowing the rules.

I shot my best round of the year today, wasn't that great, but better than i have been shooting, hope no one thinks i was cheating

If I have to guess, or even think about, the yardage to kill an animal, I am shooting too far for my " instinctive " capabilities. I use my hunting skill to get close where yardage isn't real important, generally less than 25 yards. Longer shots than 30 yards are for better shooters than me. I am fine with that, my tags are generally filled if I hunt hard enough.

"Even a good instinctive shooter judges yardage subconsciously and fixes his bow position accordingly." I make adjustments when shooting instinctively but don't put a number on it.

An up close hunter does not have enough variation in flight to worry about a couple of yards of distance. The subconscious, devoloped by thousands of hours of instinctive shooting practice in the woods takes care of it.. I might not hit the 12 ring every time, but I will hit vitals almost all of the time. Nothing else matters, I have no score card to cheat on.

Primary shots beyond 30 yards at deer sized targets are not for me, never. 95% of my couple of hundred plus kills have come at 20 yards and less. Mostly deer, bear and turkeys. I leave the longer shots for other hunters and target shooters.

Not so much on a target the size of a deers vitals inside 20. On a 12 ring, absolutely. I do not have to "dead center" the vitals, only hit the vitals.

how did an archery cheating thread at competition morph into an "I only shoot deer at 20", or is it 17.3 yards thread?

Well folks, I started this thread, have gotten plenty of different responses and opinions.

I appreciate all of you for your input, I think it is now ready to put this to bed, IMO.

Thank you all and I hope I see you all at the Howard Hill Classic someday.

Terry Harris

Exactly Jack ,me too.

Let me speak for the IBO since I have shot the championship courses and know first hand how and why they are organized in such a structured format. IBO is structured in a way that even if two shooters are sponsored by the same bow company they are peer grouped with like class archers, and most the time not in the same group if possible. Scorekeepers are usually mandated by the IBO official. With like class archers shooting together in groups, all arrows called matter to all in the group as score matters to everyone in that group competing against one another. I assure you every arrow is closely scrutinized for the proper score. All score cards are turned in as a group to the official table, circled, initialed, and then recorded. The integrity of the range is maintained as you shoot the range only once. I cannot speak for the ASA as I have never shot an ASA event. I know the difference in a rendezvous and a true competitive event. I love the rendezvous as much as anyone. I support the club, I practice, I instruct, I shoot with friends, I learn from others and I go home happy. I compete at the events that every effort is made to maintain a true competition where I can measure my skill amongst others and go home knowing the outcome was factual. I love and respect archery and my fellow competitors as we all do and we all know the “fudgers” are amongst us. They will hide behind the rendezvous curtain and never shoot or show up to a true competitive event to be revealed.

Because someone mentioned people using range finders

Odd thing, those that do any form of cheating, having read this, won’t change.

" I think sometimes the "he is cheating" talk comes from people thinking they know the rules, instead of actually knowing the rules. "

Amen.

I’ve seen both sides of this. Almost 20 years ago one of the guys from a local archery club thought I was pushing the pencil at local shoots (because, apparently, that’s the only way someone could bet him). So he showed up one morning to a 3-D and asked to shoot with me. I outshot him by 50 points that morning, so I think he got his answer. Although, I do respect the fact that he stepped up instead of just spreading rumors.

I’ve long said the fastest way to get accused of cheating is to show up somewhere new and beat the local hotshot. Guaranteed, someone will grumble. I’ve seen it far too many times.

On the other hand, I’ve seen cheating so blatant it was ridiculous. The year I shot the NFAA Indoor Nationals two people were caught string walking in the Traditional class where it’s not allowed. One was caught by other people in his group and folks one the next bale. One even took a photo of the cheating. But they didn’t follow the proper protocol and file an official protest, so the guy ended up taking home a championship bowl that weekend. It wasn’t the first time that guy ran afoul at that shoot, nor was it the last. The other guy who was string-walking I personally caught on the second day. This was after the rules had been explained to him by both me and the NFAA VP during Friday practice. I followed the proper procedure, filed a formal protest, and he was removed from the class.

There’s a big traditional shoot that unfortunately, got a reputation for being a pencil-pushing contest many years ago. . They refused to break groups, implement double scoring, or do anything to stop it. The cheating was so blatant that the shoot pretty much ended up losing credibility. My understanding is they’ve since taken steps to curb some of the problems, but may be too late.

So yes, there is cheating that takes place. And there’s also a lot of false accusations because someone didn’t like being outshot. Anyone who’s been around competitive shooting for any real length of time has probably seen many examples of each.

I am sure there a few that do. I was with a group at one shoot and one of the guys just could not miss. After the cards were turned in I heard a couple of guys mumble something about he had to cheat to have a score that high. I quickly set them straight on that.

Myself, I seldom even turn in a score card unless it will be used for door prize drawings. I go to shoot for fun and to improve my own shooting.

Yeah, me, I lost 6 arrows said I only lost 2

My Opinion, Sad to think but, I think some cheating has been going on in archery tournaments since the first trophy was handed out. Some of it is very blatant and probably some very subtle, like just at a target or two. I believe most clubs or organizations try to implement rules or formats to keep it to a minimum. With any competition between people comes some cheating, jealousy, rivalries, etc. But on the upside I think the vast majority of people at archery events do show good sportsmanship and comradery. You can only do so much to try and stop it while still keeping a shoot fun and enjoyable. Keep up the good work Terry!

It's why I haven't turned in a scorecard in years at any 3-D shoot I have taken part of.

I remember shooting once and being in the group behind this family that was notorious for it around my club. I wasn't even a member back then...just a guest. It was father, mother and 2 kids. We were held up all day at over half of the targets I'd say as they went scratching through the leaf litter and forest duff looking for lost arrows. I nearly fell out of my chair when hubby and wife were announced as the his and her champions. Such brazen liars...I'd heard about them but couldn't believe it. Eventually they weren't allowed to compete anymore but it ruined it for everyone really. I recall another incident at a shoot in NJ years ago with a young guy who did the same. He was a decent shot but he was seen looking for lost arrows and it was so obvious that he lost a bunch. He only had 7-8 to start out with that day..lol... Some guys asked him as he collected the trophy about how he could have scored so high and only come back with half his arrows. The blood drained from his face and he suddenly had another place to be...he walked directly to his car and left.

Those incidents ruined the competition for me. If I attend one now I keep score for me...never turn in a card anymore. The playing field has to be level or why bother..

It is a saying: "If you are good, no cheater can take what is yours."

"Those incidents ruined the competition for me."

Many solutions have been discussed above - double scoring, breaking up friends/family groups etc.

We all want and need a sense that the game is fair. Yeah, there's always a weasel somewhere looking for loopholes or 'tricks', thinking he's smarter than the rest. But I like to remember that the prisons in this country hold two million (bleeps) who thought they were too smart to get caught ;-)

Do your best, take the results with a smile and maintain a sense of humor.

Why a sense of humor is *important* ;-)

Dana, gotta give ya an 8 on that shot.

It's not cutting the 10 ring line:)

There is no reason to let the cheaters ruin your fun. Set your own personal scoring goal and go after it. I might be compared to golf, your competition might cheat when you are not watching, but your score is your score, try to get better and do the best you can. Talk about the cheaters if you want to, but also shoot straight and have fun.

I think the best solution for competitive shoots is to make all of the top shooters shoot with each other for the final round. A friend of mine who is a top competitor in traditional shoots told me that when the top scores are forced to shoot the final round together it is surprising how many shooters scores drop dramatically. And usually it is the same people year after year. I've been at competitive shoots where the foot of the shooter was nowhere close to touching the stake and have also had occasions where shots were given the higher score even though the arrow failed to touch or break the line for the higher score.

Kurt- I agree that things went well at TAS especially for the Sunday finals, except for the mud! I liked shooting with those I am competing with, it was fun, and I got to meet you and other good guys. I hope I can make it back again next year.

Ollie,

"I think the best solution for competitive shoots is to make all of the top shooters shoot with each other for the final round."

IBO peer groups on the final round. NFAA nad USA Archery peer group after the first day of their tournaments. It's a great way to try to prevent cheating.

Competition brings out the best in most and the worst in some. I gave up a long time ago trying to understand why someone folks do what they do. I do my best and walk away with a clean mind at the end of the day. Unless there's big money involved...and lets face it, the vast, vast majority of the time there's not....there's no use in getting bent out of shape over what really amounts to simple bragging rights. Cheaters will eventually get caught and their deeds made known.

When NALS first started, it was a competitive shoot. The host club had "Guides" that shot with every group, carried all the score cards, did the scoring, and kept the rules clear. Even a teenager was able to control someone pushing the edge because the other people in the group applied instant pressure if an individual tried to bluff the youngster. That worked very well. If there were not enough club members, they chose individuals from the list of entries to be "guides". Simple and effective.

IDK what is worse:

1 cheaters 2 people who whine about cheaters, but don't turn in score cards 3 people who whine about cheaters with no proof of cheating 4 people who whine about cheaters but only shoot a 180 on a 30 shot course themselves 5 people who whine about cheating in the P&Y book with no proof of cheating 6 shooting with people who can't hit the target most of the time

I am sure cheating happens, but I have never seen it at ANY match, and over the last few years i have shot several (probably 100 or so), so I doubt it is as rampant as some seem to think. However, whining about cheaters is definitely something that happens A LOT, and generally, it seems, by people who don't have a snowballs chance of winning anyway

bluesman, my post didn't come out in the format i typed it, so that may be why you are missing what i actually wrote.

I never said cheating NEVER happens, or that people NEVER cheat to get put in a record book, in fact i said the opposite. My complaint is with people who accuse people of cheating with no PROOF, whether it be in a match or a record book.

Imagine you won a big match or shot a book animal, and you did it fair and square, then some jackwagon accuses you of cheating. Also imagine that that jackwagon is fairly respectable and for some reason just got it wrong, because he thought he saw something, but really didn't, and has no proof. Many people would never look at your win/animal quite the same, all because of what someone said. You would now be a "cheater," and that type thing just sits wrong with me.

I had a good guy that i was shooting with one day tell me "old so and so was shooting by himself, and that is against the rules," basically calling a guy a cheater. The guy shooting by himself was shooting for no score and i knew that and let the guy i was shooting with know that, but what if i hadn't known what i did? Then "old so and so," might have been a cheater forever to me.

People spouting off that someone is a cheating, should dang well have proof, or keep their mouths shut till they do. That is the jist of of

I use to shoot a local shoot by myself, the organizer let me on Saturdays when I worked at 12:00 AM. He did it to help me out, I wasn't going to turn my card in but he insisted so I did. I was like 19 and really didn't think about how bad it might look. I was an ok shot but did shoot better by myself without the pressure I guess. After a few Saturdays of doing this I realized how it might look and stopped. So some of these folks may not realize what they are doing looks bad. I love shooting with family and friends and if we keep score its just for us nowadays. My nephew who lives with us now went to your shoot Terry but we broke the rules and just the two of us shot. I let him shoot closer since it was his first shoot. We didn't turn in cards but again it might have looked like cheating to some.

I don't think the really good archers ever cheat. Just remember one thing about archery: The same people always win or are in the top scores every time because they are just great at archery.Been that way since Noah's time. I think it is a special gift from God that most of us didn't get,but can work at and get close to being a good archer but not like the top guys and gals. They will always be in the winners circle because of the gift they got from the Lord. Just dont give up!

"it might have looked like cheating to some. "

If it's an actual competition, yeah. If it's a 'fun' shoot I'm all in favor of letting new shooters get comfortable. I would like to see their cards clearly marked somehow (colored highlighter?) showing that they are not in the running for any prizes.

Shot this past Sunday with a couple old friends and a new guy. He was strugging so we encouraged him to get closer, never mind the stakes. He was 'mis-arrowed' in more ways than one ;-) (Bleeping pro shops using Easton charts...)

After we finished I had him try my arrows, too long but correct spine, and he was hitting better. Probably should not have let the young-guy-on-a-budget shoot my custom bow though! Could see the wheels spinning...

Bottom line is, noobs should be encouraged to have fun, and maybe they'll choose to be 'competitive', maybe not.

I really like what Terry & Co. did, with both a 'fun' event and a 'serious competition' going at the same time. Not easy to pull off but something for everyone. Hopefully it encouraged a few shooters to dip their toes into the more competitive side and see if they like it.

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