I'm at my wit's end trying to tune wood arrows. I've got an Omega Imperial, 35# at my draw length (25"). Brace height is 6.5 inches, nock point 1/2" above zero. Arrows are 5/16 POC, 30-35# (arrows were selected as 34# by manufacturer). Currently cut to 27" back of point to nock groove with 70 grain points. I'm getting contact with the riser as shown, which kicks the arrow slightly nock left.

I've tried all kinds of permutations ... arrow as long as 32" and short as 25" with 70, 100, and 125 grain points. All show similar riser contact, although weaker/longer arrows go REALLY nock left.

Raising brace height results in a longer swipe, generally.

Any clues or suggestions?

Here's the mark on the arrow.

Forgot to mention that the longbow is 60".

Have you shot other arrows successfully from the bow? Wood arrows of the same spine range should also work all else being equal.

Pretty much every arrow I've ever shot from this bow, carbon or wood, has had some degree of the same issue. I've used 600 and 500 spine full length carbons, generally. Previously I've just ignored it and shot what I had, but I'm trying to really buckle down and solve the problem.

When you sight down the bow, where does the string lie in relation to the riser?

Do you pluck the string at release? That would make the string oscillate too much and could cause the shaft to contact the rest with any arrow spine.

i saw similar contact with a kids recurve years back. He was clamping down hard on the bow and shooting three under, pulling most of the bow weight with his ring finger. Without seeing the whole package and you shooting it, the best anyone can do is guess. Could be you are torquing the bow or the string, could be string nock placement, could tiller, could be arrow spine, as in everything you have tried is too stiff.

I try to keep the string in the center of the riser when sighting.

I do shoot three under, but I'm definitely not grabbing the bow; I use a wrist sling actually and have a classic Olympic recurve grip/hand position and I let the bow react. Plucking? I'm as susceptible to that as the next person, I guess ... :D I use a tab, not a glove.

The rain finally stopped and I was able to go outside and compare a fletched/bare shaft. At around 10 yards, the fletched is landing right above my aim point (putting the arrow point on a spot) while the bare shaft is landing right about 4 inches and above about 2 inches.

You try raising your nocking point a bit at a time?

How high is too high for a nocking point? It's at 1/2 inch currently. I've not gone higher than that.

Agree with Krag: betting it's a release issue, most likely a creep combined with a dragging ring finger. Don't ask me how I know. ;)

I'd say either a release (balance of finger pressure) or nock height. Experiment with one &/or the other... but working on only one of them till you're good with it, then the other. My nock height is often higher than 1/2". Raise it in small increments and see if it improves.

I’m with those saying to start with moving the nock up in small increments, and then move on to other variables if needed. I’m usually at 5/8ths and that is a world of difference for me over 1/2-inch.

There is no 'too high' if you get clean flight. It looks like arrow is striking the shelf and that to me may be a low nocking point. Don't get numbers stuck in your head, the dynamics can be different than you expect. Move up just a bit at a time and try it.

I tend to agree with George, however it might also be an extremely high elbow on the drawing hand, have someone take a picture of you at full draw.

With a 5/16 dia. arrow and nocking under the nock point your only 3/16" above square. Shooting 3 under will usually require a higher nock point than that.

Bob

I think you are overspined. Perhaps try 160 grain points. Jawge

Raising the nocking point 1/8 to 1/4 inch pretty much eliminated the riser contact.

With the 27" arrows described above, bare shaft hitting a couple of inches to the right of fletched at same vertical, so it seems like nocking point is OK.

At 27" they're probabaly too stiff!

I don't understand why two people have said the arrows are too stiff; bare shafts hitting right of fletched indicates weak, no?

Sprinke: could be the exaggeration of plucking the string? I used to believe in false positives in bareshafting: i.e. too stiff a spine would hit the shelf and kick the tail out left looking like it's weak. Now I feel that many of my bareshaft sessions and observations were futile if the release isn't super clean. I still bareshaft but I do it over at least a weeks time to make sure it wasn't just "that day".

So it sounds like you are following an actually tuning process such as outlined here:

https://www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning

Correct? Comparing point of impact of fletched vs bare, right?

So given that, what you looking at, especially with the shelf wear shown and the marking on that bare shaft, you are seeing a "false weak" indication. The arrow is dynamically behaving too stiff, which causes the nock end of the arrow to hit the bow as it passes by. This drives the nock end left, and the point end swings right. The bareshaft then continues on down range pointing that way as it remains uncorrected by fletching.

A clue that this happening would be if you're getting an annoying "whack" sound when you shoot. That's the arrow hitting the bow.

The stiff behavior is probably being caused by the arrow being so short, the light point weight, and the low brace height. All three of those together will definitely make a difference and lead to stiff behavior.

"Raising the nocking point 1/8 to 1/4 inch pretty much eliminated the riser contact." As I thought maybe was the trouble.

Right handed, hitting to the right indicates weak spine, but you may also be getting a false reading.

Have you checked the tiller of the bow?

There's not much I could do about tiller, since it's a one-piece longbow. When I had it custom made, I requested that it be tillered for three-under. But, since you asked, it's got about 1/8 inch positive tiller, measured at limb fade out.

Sprinkle, if your fletched arrows are flying the line...dead on, then I wouldn't worry about bare shafts to the right. Wood arrows can be a pain to bare-shaft. Likely something as simple as about 20 or 30 grains too much weight on the front end that is causing a right strike with bare shaft.

Hedgehunter makes some good points. My initial observation was that the shelf appears pretty deep in the photo. There are several things you can do short of an permanent modifications to see if the problem goes away w changes to the shelf.

The shelf appears to be about 1/2 in wide. The bow is cut to center, and I have a piece of leather for a strike plate that is 1/16 inch. I've cut the bottom piece of leather (the rest) to be 3/8 in wide If I understand you correctly, the sight window is radiused. I don't understand what you mean by beveled, though. I will add a few more pictures.

sorry the pictures ended up turned sideways.

Aromakr brought up another good point: High (string arm) elbow will also cause that kind of shelf contact - but it sounds like nock height has already helped you out.

Personally I think you've got a number of things going on. First thing to condider is what George said. If you aren't happy with that then there's this.

You said that you are trying to keep your string in the center of the riser. Where does that put the point of the arrow in relation to the string? My guess is considerably to the left. Start with proper alignment. The whole arrow from the string to the point aligned with the target. Makes no doffernece where it is in relation to the riser.

Next, if the bow isn't cut past center, with that sideplate you've got on there you have moved the arrow nearly an 1/8" from center. That's more or less 2 spine groups. So, the arrows would be stiff.

Then, there is the whole is your form good enough to tell anything about nock kick with a bareshaft? I don't know the answer, but mine typically isn't.

Since we have the technology, as they say, I took some slow motion video and then put together the frames in an image so you can follow the arrow in flight. Link to full size image should be below.

This is a short 25" arrow.

Trying the link again.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k6x3ukyg25il2j7/short%20arrow%20slomo.png? dl=0

This is a similar image using a 29" arrow (same spine and point weight).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qb1gw3cx6w1579q/long%20arrow%20slomo.png ?dl=0

Isn't 10 yards too close for accurate bare shafting data? Also I prefer broadhead tuning to get woods spine right.

sprinkle, don't get what your video is supposed to indicate. A 25" arrow isn't the same spine as a 29" arrow. There's 20lbs. difference in them.

All the variables you are entering into it are making it more complicated. I would think with your bow set up 35# at 25" draw those shafts fletched and with 125gr should work ok at 27" behind point length which would be about 39# dynamic spine assuming 34# to begin with as stated. Make a few and shoot for a while to get a good clean form down. Once you are consistent you can fine tune from there if necessary.

Too stiff of an arrow. Just went through a tuning process on my Wing Gull 37# @ 28", I shoot 31". 400's I had to raise the nock point up above 1/4" to get the arrow to stop hitting the outside of the rest. Went to a 500 spine, the nock point was able to drop and no more hitting the rest. The 400's would have worked better with 180 grain points but I do not have any. Which reminds me, I need to order a field point tuning kit.

I was shooting 28" 5/16 POC spined 46-48 with 125gr from a 40# @ 26" Black Bear RC with B55 that were showing a little stiff. Sanded them down to around 41-42 and trimmed to 27.5" and shot nicely through paper. That Omega with a low stretch string isn't that far behind my set up.

zonic: I live in a city; I do what I can. :D Broadheads not allowed at any local range.

fdp: I wanted to show two extremes so people could compare how the arrows fly. When I started, I didn't know if I should go weaker or stiffer, so I prepared two arrows to try both options out.

Krag: thanks for your advice. I'm not a newbie archer, I've got a USA Archery Level 4 coach certification, I just don't post in this forum often and I'm always willing to learn more.

Stix: the bow was tillered for 3-under; I asked Kegan to do so when he built this bow for me. I don't cant the bow. Thanks for your advice.

Hedgehunter:

Don't know how you came to the conclusion 1/2" shelf is too deep. The shelf depth is in relation too the center of the limb and bows are made anywhere from 3/16" less than center to 3/16" past center depending on the bow design.

Bob

I will admit I don't understand how people will argue over factors that affect penetration then blow off state of tune, despite the fact that good arrow flight is a large contributor to good penetration.

Sure, with woodies bareshaft is rather more tedious/time consuming, and it calls for a willingness to sort and cull one's arrows, pulling out the those that misbehave. BUt it works and does so quite well.

Try shooting your fletched arrows through paper, I find that is a good way to start and if you must then bare shaft

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