Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


**Visualization**

Messages posted to thread:
Bowmania 13-May-19
Live2hunt 13-May-19
Draven 13-May-19
Krag 13-May-19
RymanCat 13-May-19
UpNorth 13-May-19
2 bears 13-May-19
Barry Wensel 13-May-19
Krag 14-May-19
PhantomWolf 14-May-19
Bowmania 14-May-19
PhantomWolf 14-May-19
George D. Stout 14-May-19
Live2hunt 14-May-19
RymanCat 14-May-19
Krag 14-May-19
George D. Stout 14-May-19
dean 14-May-19
RymanCat 14-May-19
Krag 14-May-19
Barry Wensel 14-May-19
Chris Walker 15-May-19
Hico 15-May-19
RymanCat 15-May-19
Bowlim 15-May-19
jk 15-May-19
fdp 15-May-19
David McLendon 15-May-19
jk 16-May-19
Bowmania 16-May-19
Bowmania 18-May-19
George D. Stout 18-May-19
Bowmania 18-May-19
From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-May-19




If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment. DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I DO IT, DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU. All these form threads are no substitute for a coach. No matter how good any written word is, it can't point and say, “move this here”.

Visualization is a pretty simple way to improve your shot. Probably the easiest and there's a number of ways to do it.

Let's look at it from a hunting stand point first. Here's an example. There's a dog being walked in front of my house and as he walks toward and past, I picture when I'd first shoot, and how the spot I would aim for changes, as he walks past, until there's no shot. When I do get an actual shot, that mental practice prepares me for the angle I want the arrow to go through the chest cavity.

In my sequence, I have a picture of a funnel that I shoot the arrow into. Large end near the bow, small end near the 'X' ring. A while back, I had a discussion with a guy that used a long arrow as visualization. The point of the arrow was just a foot or so from the spot he wanted to hit. I tried that, but kept thinking of the spine of an arrow that was that long and it played with my shot. I went back to the funnel or picturing the arrow in the spot before I shot. It's the message to your brain that counts.

“Instinctive Archery Insights” by Jay Kidwell mentions that Jack Nicklaus had 50% of his shot picturing where the ball would land. That's probably a pretty short description of what is taking place with that 'picturing'. Club head meeting the ball, distance of the shot, plus other things - I'm not a golfer.

Probably the best and most consistent practice I do is every night before I fall asleep in bed. I take 3 shots in various locations that my mind comes up with. I do everything starting with pulling the arrow out of the quiver, nocking the arrow... my sequence. Talk about knowing your sequence inside out!!!

Back to Jay's book.

“An Australian Psychologist. Alan Richardson, describes the effects of imaging and visualization on free throw scores of basketball players. Three groups of students were chosen at random, none of which had practiced imagery before in their playing. The first group shot free throws every day for twenty days. Group two practiced free throws on the first and twentieth day with no practice between. Group three practiced the first and twentieth day,but added imagery for twenty minutes a day between. They visualized themselves shooting free throws. If they missed a shot, they would correct their aim on the following shot. This practice was taking place completely in the mind.

The first group, who practiced each day for twenty days, showed a 24 percent increase in baskets made. Group two whom only practice on the first and last days showed no improvement. Group three who practiced on the first and last days and used imagery between increased their accuracy by 23 percent! Let that sink in (no pun intended). Group three realized a 23 percent increase in accuracy without even touching the basketball. That’s only 1 percent less than the subjects that actually practiced with the ball.”

Pretty powerful stuff.

To reference past subjects search by clicking on key word;

**Stance** **Grip** **Hook** **Body Posture** **Head Position** **KSL Sequence** **Set Position** **Set Up Position** **Anchor** **Transfer to Hold** **Release** **Release 2 (Back Tension) **Release and Aiming** **Rhythm Breathing**

From: Live2hunt
Date: 13-May-19




I have done this type of practice my whole life. Funny you mention a funnel as this is always what I would imagine. Lately I have been wanting to get a better form and a better release after years and years of doing it bad. It is a tough road trying to retrain your brain and body to do something different after so many years. But, I have been imagining a good crisp release with good back tension and it is helping. Plus another thing I have always done is picking a spot. Any animal I see I look for the spot or when I look at something I always first focus on the center of it and imagine a draw and release. It helps a lot for your shot.

From: Draven
Date: 13-May-19




Visualization reveals execution problems and the brain will address them. There are studies showing that improvement of the new taught task happens when the subjects were allowed to sleep. Mindful training is just this: using your mind while training. Visualization is a very good tool.

From: Krag
Date: 13-May-19




I had mentioned in another thread but also appropriate here that when sitting at a traffic light I focus on the green lens I'm waiting to change and visualize a shot, going through my sequence, and the trajectory to the target. There's usually more than one light at different distances so if it is a long red you can get off a couple shots. Makes good use of the wait and you certainly know when its time to go!

From: RymanCat
Date: 13-May-19




Eye of the predator something one develops when they become a killer!!!!!!!

From: UpNorth Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-May-19




I've never thought of using the funnel or the "x" yards long arrow. I do see my fletching in the spot of aim, and the shaft through the animal while hunting, or just the white fletch with orange nock when shooting 3d. It never occurred to me before, but I've never used any type of visualization during indoor season...

That might explain some things I've had happen! Thanks, Todd. This was another good tip.

From: 2 bears
Date: 13-May-19




I have visualized shooting every big game animal in the Zoo numerous times. I watched a Rhino from every angle,no way,they have armor. Bass Pro has a full mount elk and buffalo. They should have arrows in the kill zone sticking out from every angle.Probably wouldn't do for me to carry a bow in there. >>>>-----> Ken

From: Barry Wensel Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-May-19




I have to add this. A couple days after Paul Schafer took his Desert bighorn sheep to complete his "Grand Slam" he came by my house to tell me every minute detail of the hunt. Please don't hold me to the exact stats as it's been many years ago and my memory isn't so hot anymore. It was a hunt that was partially paid for by his friends helping to raise some much needed funds to make it possible for him go on the hunt. Paul had passed up a "nice" ram late in the hunt because he thought he could do better. Right at the end of his Mexican hunt he made a stalk on a great ram. There was a lot riding on the shot. It was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity at a world-class desert bighorn; a license and hunt partially paid for by donations from several friends. It was going to be his final oppourtunity.. If I remember right it was afternoon and the ram was like 30 yards but standing in some brush/trees. I'm thinking Paul said there was a small opening about the size of a pie plate that he had to thread his arrow through in order to kill the sheep. This was it. He said he drew, made a perfect/ clean shot and watched his arrow drive right into the perfect spot. I said something like, "Wow.. there was a LOT of pressure to keep your cool and make that shot.. a lot on the line." I'll never forget what he then told me. He said, "Not really because I had previously visualized that same shot over and over in my mind and I KNEW I could do it." (positive thinking?" He said, "it was visualization." I said, "please explain to me what your definition is of visualization." He said, " I mentally picture my arrow going exactly where I wanted it to go. Then the physical aspect of the shot overtakes the mental aspect and the arrow goes right where you want it to." I said, "hmm.. I do that all the time too... except I call it praying." He looked and me and laughed. I really miss the guy. BW

From: Krag
Date: 14-May-19




Did the dog aiming thing also but at a higher level. Back in the late '70's when everyone's dog roamed free around the neighborhood I was preparing for my first out of state deer hunt (rifle) to Maine. I would dry fire at every dog that walked within sight of my apartment so eventually had every angle possible down pat and practiced for all distances. Went for three days with a friend and we both scored on our first deer. Those old enough to remember the little Chevy Vega wagon - we had two deer on top coming home for the 6hr drive that was quite the sight I'll never forget.

From: PhantomWolf
Date: 14-May-19




Paul was a true legend, at least in my old eyes. Thanks Barry!

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 14-May-19




Barry, you bring up the best hunting question of all these threads that I can't answer. How did Paul get his friends to pay for that trip? LOL.

"...the physical aspect of the shot overtakes the metal aspect..." As they say that's GOLD. Imagine how short these threads would be if I could come to the point like that!!!

UpNorth, I usually use the funnel, but two years ago I'd been shooting at an orange dot that someone put on a bail. In late Aug. I start shooting 3D more and projected the orange dot to the 3D target. I heart shot a 6X6 elk at 29 yards. I noticed the dot is easier to see in dark condidtions, LOL. Actually, I think the funnel makes you think of trejectory more than a dot, at least on long shots.

Live2hunt, It's really not hat hard to break those habits - in my case, 30-40 years of bad archery form. Well, I should say, in winter it's not that hard. All you need to do is blank bail the bad habit out of existance and that takes 30 days (maybe 21, I've read two different studies). THe problem at this time of the year is you're not going to just blank bail. And once you add aiming, like in a 20 yd shot, that old habit is going to creep back in the form.

I'll always remember coaching a friend out of TP. I had my own formula and I think Jim Castos is better. It took 30 days of blank bailing along with some other instructions. I told him you have to do it exactly like this. Well, he did FOR TWO WEEKS. He told me that after 2 weeks he was so sure he was cured. Not so much. He went out on the 3D course, competeing with his shooting partners - back to square one.

Bowmania

From: PhantomWolf
Date: 14-May-19




Krag,

Had to laugh, my first deer coming back from Maine was on the top of my yellow VW Type-3 fastback. The looks I got running it to the butcher after hanging it for a few days was something else!

Ralph

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 14-May-19




Visualization is a step to be used after all parts of your form are working to insure you can actually make a good shot.

From: Live2hunt
Date: 14-May-19




Bowmania, I have been working on breaking the bad habits now for 2 years. I think it is coming around now finally. Now when I do quick snap shots, my string hand automatically is back straight behind where I want it. To me, visualization is a great way to stay/start shooting well.

From: RymanCat
Date: 14-May-19




You guys talk about target form and its not the same shooting animals. I wish Barry would explain what form he uses on every shot if its practiced and talked about like target shooters do?

Its not the same and a good killer has many forms they take on I believe but the eye of the predator is the visualization that takes on the form when a killer goes to work on his animal. Its a posture more than a form maybe.

Now sometimes things breakdown like hesitation and looking up sending an arrow high or dropping bow arm going low. But when your centered it comes together.

Guys say all sorts of Mystics to come up with fancy threads but when it comes down to it is simple and its best to keep things simple as can be.

As you run things through your head and visualize the shot sequence it can be practiced anywhere.

Many times I visualized the shot as the animal approached me and just before I drew down and took the shot. I then executed the shot that resulted in the animal and placing the arrow where I pictured where i was looking. Now there were times when things went south that I didn't foresee though like the twig or just exactly how the animal stood that I perceived or the animal moved at the shot. Things do happen at times.

I visualized shooting a GH in his head and had him dead to rights but dropped bow arm. Broken form I had the eye but fell apart at the shot. Now was it mental or physical break down or both? I hadn't been shooting and got cocky and that was my down fall. I expected when I wasn't completely prepared I never shot this bow before or the arrow out of this bow either but fully expected the shot to go where I was looking. The bow and arrow combo wasn't tested yet. All the pieces of complete were not in the puzzle yet.

Targets and live animals are two different scenarios and seem to always get confused. Targets don't move where animals do.

From: Krag
Date: 14-May-19




Jay Kidwell mentioned using and projecting the orange dot or a button and took it further by suggesting carrying the button and handling and looking at it when waiting in line wherever you might be to further ingrain the concept. He showed a picture of what I believe was his Jeffery recurve inscribed "On the Button".

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 14-May-19




Ryman Cat, what you call target form will work just fine for hunting, and has many a time and likely before you got into being the ultimate killer. Lots of our pioneers were both field and target archers and significantly good in both that and hunting. You just need to get over your ridiculous bias.

From: dean
Date: 14-May-19




Read the Kidwell pamphlet. An archery application of similar visualization that occurs in many fields, although i do not play the artificial 'red dot' game, I prefer the center of the actual center of what i want to hit. Anything from classical music maestros to the 4 years of American karate training from the retired CIA trainer, have all talked of visualization. It works, but a big part of it was to get to a point where it is beyond a forced step by step. Right now I am visualizing a Vega with two men hunting gear and two deer on top. 6 hours really isn't that far away at 35 mph. The old Vega joke, highway patrolman stops a Vega that was clocked at 90 mph. The driver said, "but officer this is a Chevy Vega." The patrolman answered, "I know, I could hardly believe it myself."

From: RymanCat
Date: 14-May-19




Yes but you need to be a little more steady I think on targets. While hunting you usually are pumped up and going with the flow and more focused and baring down on that type of shooting.

Bias not really but there is a difference I seen it for years.

We are in the 21 Century and guys still have not figured out animals to sit for a shot only. They want to sit and watch the time go by and educate the bush that your there.

There's many who have but more who haven't. I seen so many really good target shooters but can't shoot an animal live to save their life. That's not bias I don't think. That's ones interpenetration just like I have some of mine based on what I have seen.

We all visualize differently. Guy might be sitting in stand and a good buck near him and he be thinking of the fight he had before he left to go hunting with his woman. LOL

Woman wanted him to spend time at home and he said oh no to the woods I go.

From: Krag
Date: 14-May-19




Dean, the Vega wagon was Silver and my wife called it the Silver Bullet so I know it would do at least 135 fps!!!

It was dark by the time we got everything loaded. The friend's deer had already been checked in but mine was shot that day hadn't and we couldn't stay another night. The host where we stayed called around and found a hardware store in the next town open until 9pm. We pulled up in front just before closing and there were 8 legs going every which way. The guy slices behind a tendon to apply the metal tag and joking I said make sure you don't put two tags on the same deer. We lift up the leg and that was exactly what he was going to do...

Bowmania, sorry about the hijack!

From: Barry Wensel Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 14-May-19




Also my apologies for hijacking the thread. Back in the late '90s we were bowhunting hogs and javies on the King Ranch in South Texas. Because we had to deal with gate times we often had to gas up after the day's hunt after dark. There were four of us in two rigs. As I was filling up a Mexican guy pulled up on the opposite side of the pump driving a Chevy Vega station wagon. He looked in the bed of my truck and said something about the critters. Frankly I was tired and didn't really feel like dealing with the meat that night. I asked him if he wanted them. He said, "you mean free?" I said sure. He said, "Si Senior.. you came to the right place." So I went back to the other guys behind me and asked if they wanted to donate their hogs/javies. They also didn't feel up to butchering that night. So it ended up the Mexican dude stuffed EIGHT hogs and javie carcasses into the back (inside) of his Chevy Vega. I can still "visualize" him swatting fleas. So help me God, a couple nights later we pulled in to gas up again and he was waiting for us with 22 of his friends. True story. BW

From: Chris Walker
Date: 15-May-19




"Interpenetration"....helluva typo!

From: Hico
Date: 15-May-19




Helluva hypo?

From: RymanCat
Date: 15-May-19




Interpretation is that better for ya scholars? LOL

I don't know how most of you are but I have visulated thoughts like all the time on many different things. It all comes naturally to me. Can be about anything or past things as well.

Spell check, LOL.

Visualized

From: Bowlim
Date: 15-May-19




I look at it several ways. One is metal preparation for performing under stress, which I think is the most commonly expresses, particularly if say Tiger Woods type figures are talking who have the technique down cold.

At a more basic level it is having the correct mental instructions in mind. So it obviously feels right to beginners to do a lot of wrong things, like a plucked release, or bad bow arm position. Over time you learn the correct approach and program it through imaging it. Stuff like video is great for that.

I am in a motel at the moment, and I just poured myself a half cup of coffee. I used a packet of "whitener". So that is obviously a good marketing idea. People respond to making coffee white. But is that the real objective? It is taste; less staining to teeth; nutrition; flavour modification with minimal tooth decay. White is really pretty low on the list, but it is apparently what we think we are after when we reach for the packet.

So think of release, for a lot of beginners the release they are after is to stop the pain. On their fingers; the draw weight; no hit to the face from the string, etc... Not really the best programing for success though.

From: jk
Date: 15-May-19




Notice how long the posts are on this thread. It measures BS.

From: fdp
Date: 15-May-19




Interestingly enough I've heard at least 2 other (nope actually 3 now that I think about it) very well known folks in the archery world talk about exactly this same process.

Each of them had their own way of describing the process but it is the same end game. And it works.

From: David McLendon
Date: 15-May-19




"Notice how long the posts are on this thread. It measures BS."

Some are high on meds or just senile or both, some have lived a life and done more than most here will ever dream of, and then there is the BS.

From: jk
Date: 16-May-19




For me the hardest thing is to attend only to the spot...the instant of release...not a second before, the instant.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-May-19




jk, tell me what you gained by your first post on this thread? Maybe I'll try it???

To address your second post and I'll try to be short. Look at say a door knob 20ish feet away. Look at the exact center 'pick a spot'. I can do it for about 1 to 2 seconds before other things start 'floating' into my peripheral vision. That's not good for hitting that spot. Next week Monday will be Focus and Concentration.

Years ago I was giving a class and a student asked me to go through my whole sequence. I pick a spot and visualize the funnel from the 'set up' position, then I look at my cresting and start my draw. When I was done he asked me why I looked at my cresting and I explained the above peripheral vision comment.

During a break or after class a guy came up to me and told me a story about watching PBS special about fighter pilot classes. They were tested in a room with only a piece of paper in from of them and a pencil. All the lights were turned off and a laser dot was projected on the front wall.

Their instructions were to put the pencil in the middle of the paper and follow the dot's movement with the pencil. After a certain amount of time the lights were turned on and the papers were collected. They showed movement from the center a half inch on some to 3 inches on others around the center of the paper. BUT the dot never moved. "Burning a hole' might not be the best solution to hitting the hole.

Bowmania

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 18-May-19




You guys must know I read a lot. Just ran into a term called 'focal dystonia'. It refers to staring at an image for a long time, which make the image fade. The first second the image is in your brain is the most vivid.

Bowmania

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 18-May-19




"You guys must know I read a lot. Just ran into a term called 'focal dystonia'. It refers to staring at an image for a long time, which make the image fade. The first second the image is in your brain is the most vivid".

Which is one of the reasons many shooters who don't hold for a long time can shoot very well...even top scores. I suppose that too has a point of dimishing returns on either end however.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 18-May-19




Good point George, Don't remember if I use the term 'diminish'ing, but I said the odd of getting off a good shot diminish after 5 seconds.

It's not only your brain, but the muscles start to loose their strength and that starts a chain reaction with the brain - get rid of it now. My shot from draw to gone is just south of 3 seconds. On 40 yards plus north.

Bowmania





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