If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment. DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I DO IT, DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU. All these form threads are no substitute for a coach. No matter how good any written word is, it can't point and say, “move this here”. I don't really want to start with this, but I have to address it. I don't expect to win an argument. It's just out there for the undecided or archers debating what style of aiming to use.
I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive. They don't consistently win any tournaments (might even say rarely) and they can't shoot distance (good reasons they can't). I've read G. Fred Asbel. It's a tribute to what a great writer he is, but I'm amazed that any one tries it. I pretty much read it ten times and all I can come up with is that it's pretty convoluted.
Yea, I want to shoot like Asprinbuster and Jeff K, but I really wanted to shoot like Howard and Byron (gappers), but couldn't string a 100 pound bow sitting down. Pretty much a waste of time trying emulate a guy that's 1 in a 100,000 or more.
I often wondered why when I see a guy spraying arrows all over and had a chance to talk to him I'd find out he's instinctive. I met Byron at an exhibit and had a discussion with him. I asked him if he was instinctive and he said yes. I asked him how he made those 100 yard shot and he said, “I gap those.” Then I asked him what the difference was and he said, “On the close shots, I know the gap so well I'm instinctive”. Think about that. It came from the best shot of our time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's what I see as the problem and I should probably reread Asbel to see if it falls in line with his 'convolution' (not a word). He wants you to learn the gap subconsciously. 'You don't look at the arrow.' This is like trying to learn how to write you name with your eyes closed. Think I'm kidding? Write your name with your dominant hand (you do it subconsciously) and then switch to your other hand and close your eyes. You have to think about it. Imagine not thinking about it. You'd eventually get it, but how many tries before it became subconscious. Five hundred arrows a 1000. Whereas the gapper knows after one miss what he did wrong. EVERYTHING IS EASIER WHEN YOU'RE THINKING. What makes more sense? Burn a hole for any distance or pick a gap for this distance.
“I shoot instinctive because I don't want to judge yardage.” Can't tell you how many times I've heard that. To that I say learn how to gap without judging the distance. I'm sure Byron is not judging distance when he's shooting instinctive. There's many ways to shoot a gap. I have no clue to what any of my gaps are in inches. If I did I'd have to know the yardage. I sure get the impression that's how Paul Schafer shot.
I don't really want to get this going into a instinctive vs gap thread. If you're instinctive, fine. I'm putting this information out for the new guy to pick what he feels is suitable for him as an aiming style. It's an accuracy sport so you need some way to aim. I don't care if you use a sight. You've probably heard aiming is only 10% of the shot. It's true, look at the sequence which can probably be cut down to 10 easily, then it's exactly 10%. I believe it's true, but also feel that as the distance increases aiming becomes more and more important. All the other 9 things NEVER change. So please, let's not get into a fight about which is best. Even thought I shoot that way at times, I wouldn't have a clue how to teach someone to do it. I wouldn't even suggest it. My suggestion would be read Fred's book and try to figure it out your self. If you under stand Mr Asbel good for you. I can't. If you think the swing draw is the way to go, good also. But when your knocking on Jim Casto's door, don't say I didn't warn you.
The reason I don't know what my gap is at 20 yds or any other distance is I don't look at it in inches, because if I did I'd have to know the distance in yards. Inches in gap for a particular yardage might be good for people coming from the compound world, but any time you put numbers on anything it's going slow down your shot. Here's how I suggest learning gapping. Pick a distance and stick an arrow in the ground and always put your left toe there if your RH. The distance should be 12 to 16 yards, doesn't really matter. Put a dot on the target, put your left toe at the arrow. Shoot an arrow with the point of the arrow on the dot. For argument sake, let's say it impacted 20 inches above the dot. Shoot another arrow, arrow point on the dot. It should have impacted 20 inches above the spot again. You have two arrows 20 inches above the dot. NOW, shoot another arrow but aim BELOW the dot 20 inches. Stare at the dot and see the arrow in your peripheral vision below the dot and duplicate the distance from the dot to the first two arrows you shot, but below the dot We don't really know or care if it was 20 inches. Shoot the arrow. Where did it hit. Well if you did everything correctly it had to hit the dot. Do it again. Did you you hit the dot? Do it again. MEMORIZE THAT GAP. Did you memorize that gap? Go pull ALL the arrows including the two above. Then put your left toe on the arrow and see if you memorized the gap. Continue to shoot and become familiar with that gap. What happens is you're really memorizing a gap AND a sight picture. When you go to another distance think, "this gap looks about right for this distance". It's a bigger gap if you're closer and smaller if your further. It's really an estimation of the gap you memorized with your toe on the arrow. After time there's no estimation it's just I KNOW THE GAP FOR THAT SIGHT PICTURE. This is harder to learn than, oh yea, that gap is 20 inches, but talk about faster!!! The beauty of learning gap this way is you become instinctive for those closer shots (your subconscious takes over). For longer shots you go back to "this looks about right". You won't beat the 20 inch gappers to start, but over time you will. And for hunting when your excited it can't be beat. By the way it's how Tom Clum shoots. Me too. I've been doing it for 50 years. So if you're good at judging yardage and want to learn a gap system, Jimmy Blackmon has a very good video on it. You have to memorize the gaps at each distance. I'm just pulling this up off the top of my head. You kind of do the same thing with a spot in the center of the target. Start say at 10 yards. Put your arrow tip on the spot and shoot. Let's say you impacted 24 inches above the spot. Now go to 15 and say your impact is 20 inches etc, until you put the point of the arrow on the spot and you hit the spot – Point of Aim. That will vary for everyone. Write them down and when you come to a 27.5 yard shot you just hold between your 30 and 25 yard gap. Pretty simple. Everything I'm suggestion here is for hunting. So I'm not going to get into stringwalking. I don't believe it's possible to get perfect broadhead flight for a 10 yard shot and a 30. Somone may know how. If you do start, a thread on it. I will mention a fixed crawl, because I think it's easy and really fast to learn. With it you have two nocking points for the arrow. And below that another nocking point – the fixed crawl. You always put your hook on the string below that third nocking point. You can set your crawl to be point on at 20 yards. So at 20 you put the point of the arrow on the spot you want to hit and you hit it. If you have a 15 yard shot, put the point of the arrow on the brisket of a deer and you hit the kill zone. If you figured these from the ground and you hunt from a treestand they'll be slightly different. The problem with it is if you have to shoot 25 you have you're bow hand in the way of the spot you want to hit. One thing I neglect to mention and it's very critical to all hunting gaps. I do mention it in the directions on how I shoot. When figuring a gap you look at the spot you want to hit and see the arrow in your peripheral vision.
Flash sent me an interesting PM about breathing which will be the next topic. Unless I get some other crazy idea, LOL.
To reference past subjects search by clicking on key word; **Stance** **Grip** **Hook** **Body Posture** **Head Position** **KSL Sequence** **Set Position** **Set Up Position** **Anchor** **Transfer to Hold** **Release** **Release 2 (Back Tension) **Release/Aiming** **Aiming 1**
It may or may not help some archers. I use breathing to run my shot. First I inhale while drawing the bow and hit my anchors. Second I exhale while obtaining my sight picture /aim. Third I inhale slowly till the arrow hits. This system keeps me from getting hung up on trying to aim to hard and probably the biggest benefit is it's hard to collapse while continually expanding your lungs. If it's a very close quick shot I'll inhale hit anchors and continue inhalation till the arrow hits. My breathing process may be of no use to some but developing one that works for them is very calming.
It may or may not help some archers. I use breathing to run my shot. First I inhale while drawing the bow and hit my anchors. Second I exhale while obtaining my sight picture /aim. Third I inhale slowly till the arrow hits. This system keeps me from getting hung up on trying to aim to hard and probably the biggest benefit is it's hard to collapse while continually expanding your lungs. If it's a very close quick shot I'll inhale hit anchors and continue inhalation till the arrow hits. My breathing process may be of no use to some but developing one that works for them is very calming.
This guy explained what Todd said: create a "reference" gap at the target at a known distance and intuitively adjusting it in relation with this "reference" based on the apparent size of the animal at any other distance.
My two cents I guess is, if you shoot only for hunting, why would you want to rely solely on an aiming method, Gapping, String Walking, etc. For me, it's too much screwing around and I may as well throw sights on my bow like when I shot compounds. I will shoot out to 40 with instinctive shooting. I find my biggest issue with me missing my mark is bad form, bad release, or both. When those are good, I can lay the arrows right in there. Also, If I am mentally referencing the point of the arrow, wouldn't I have to change my gap when I transition to a broadhead from my field point?
The swing draw and casual shot does not cause Target Panic Todd.
TP is the result of being obcessed with perfectionism by trying to hit something and when you do not, the negative feedback is ingrained and causes a negative programmed response.
TP rears it's head on every type of Bow and method.
"I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive."
For all the wrong reasons most of the time. It is said:
"Because it is easy". No, it is not, it requires a lot of discipline and time to become proficient.
"Because it is fun". No, it is not fun when you don't hit a thing and lose arrows instead shooting arrows.
"Because it is what our forefathers were doing". No, they were compensating the lack of training with the number of arrows sent toward the victim or use of poison.
The instinctive shooters like Jeff K or AspirinBuster know that there is a learning process behind and they will work on it.
I'm in the camp that doesn't believe there is such a thing as a true "instinctive" archer. These threads all have echoed my shot process almost exactly, except for keeping aiming in my conscious mind. I get my aim, then focus on pushing my bow hand to the target and keeping tension in my back, really concentrating on moving my string side elbow down and back. To each their own, shoot how you want, but I've yet to meet a consistently accurate non- aimer.
Yep, this method works well. Try "wand" shooting this way, it's an eye opener.
IE: working on windage - Put a piece of tape down the entire length down the center of your your target and like Todd described, put you out of focus arrow point on a spot at bottom of target and work on your alignment / windage; great exercise.
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT HICO. I ALWAYS THOUGHT I SHOT INSTINCTIVE UNTIL I REALIZED I WAS HOLDING AT ANCHOR FOR ABOUT 3 SECONDS. WHY? TO GET MY GAP FROM MEMORY AFTER 61 YEARS OF SHOOTING, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T SEE MY ARROW AS I SHOOT RIGHT HANDED WITH A LEFT DOMINATE EYE. i'M SURE I GAP OFF THE ARROW REST. WE ALL AIM IF WE HOPE TO HIT SOMETHING. JOEL
I agree probably everyone gap shoots, as stated in my earlier post. To add to this I think Bowmania's and Jimmy Blackmon's learning method is far superior to "trial and error", which I've done for many years. I wish I would have had this information years ago which I'm sure would have made me a much better shooter. I don't subscribe to the adage that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks", but in my case you're talking about a real "old dog" so in that case the adage may apply. Thanks again Bowmania for all your detailed, up-to-date, proven step by step knowlegable insight into shooting a single string bow with a high degree of accuracy. Joel
Well, I do agree that everyone gap shoots. Of coarse there is a distance your arrow point will be to the target, below, point on, point above. The thing is, some of us look at the gap to aim, and some of us do not reference the gap for aiming. Those who need to reference the gap need to know there distance from the target, those of us who don't reference the gap do not judge the distance.
" ... those of us who don't reference the gap do not judge the distance."
Would you bet your life on this?
Hint: if you wouldn't judge the distance in a way, you wouldn't know the deer is at 15 yards or at 35 yards. You judge, but you just don't say in your mind "around 17 yards".
Rick Welch and his mantra sold to get "I don't know (the distance) and I don't care" is like the drogue for some - brainwashing.
Sarge, will you read the first sentance of this thread. We have to be selling something, the exchange of money, can you tell me where the salesmanship is?
L2H, I reference the gap for aiming, and don't know the distance. I don't understand your point.
" ... those of us who don't reference the gap do not judge the distance." Would you bet your life on this?
Hint: if you wouldn't judge the distance in a way, you wouldn't know the deer is at 15 yards or at 35 yards. You judge, but you just don't say in your mind "around 17 yards".
Rick Welch and his mantra sold to get popular "I don't know (the distance) and I don't care" is like the drogue for some - brainwashing.
I do not reference the gap and I do not think of the yardage, my focus is on the spot I am aiming for and I do not physically have to make sure my point is a certain distance below, on or above the target. Your brain is calculating all of this for you mentally so physically you do not have to. I really do not care how people want to shoot, to each there own. Some just can't fathom that others shoot different than them.
Ok, I physically do not judge the yardage as I did when I shot sights and a compound. As stated many many, many times before, in throwing a baseball to someone do you look and judge the yardage so you know how much force to put on the ball with your throw?
An "instinctive shooter" - no matter the type - actually is feeding his long term spatial memory with information when he is training. The more accurate information is inserted in the "database" the more accurate the shooter will be on the field. This explains why taking out an "instinctive shooter" from his training environment will have hard time perform in another right away. He needs to let his brain accommodate with new data and if the apparent size of the animal is not linked to a known distance he will miss.
PS being humans, we work the same. The gapper who doesn't train at a known distance will be less efficient than a gapper who knows the distance while training. The gapper who knows the distance while training knows how far his estimation can be off and still have the arrow into the target. The other one is just guessing. No better than an instinctive.
Draven, this is why we practice focusing on a spot, not the whole animal. I can shoot just as well on my range as I so when stumping or on a different coarse. My focus is on the spot, not the size of the animal.
I think you guys are basically doing the same thing but one is consciously settling the gap in his mind by focusing one the tip in relation to the target then after time you don’t need to because it’s part of your sight picture. Then is referencing only his sight picture and repeatedly shooting till he gets it. (In that site picture is the bow and arrow)
Which do you think is a fast way to learn the sight picture?
I actually shoot both ways depending on the status of my TP. When it’s bad I can only use the sight picture, if I hard it gets bad sometimes. That sight picture was originally programmed hard aiming with the point.
Pick the spot is the last thing you do before drawing. You need to see the whole and get your brain all the information he needs to give you the "I can do this" signal.
It is perfectly OK to say what you are pushing and the premise of why but you first hosed down many other Coaches and famous Shooters right after you made your first statement.If you would like to push what Blackmon or the Iron Mind guy are all pushing? Leave out everyone else in history before you do that or you will be challenged. Below are your condescending comments about methods and Coaches. YOu should not Hose other people at the beginning fo your posts and expect everyone to agree that everybody is a Dummy who does not agree that G Fred and others are inferior to your product.
"I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive. They don't consistently win any tournaments (might even say rarely) and they can't shoot distance (good reasons they can't). I've read G. Fred Asbel. It's a tribute to what a great writer he is, but I'm amazed that any one tries it. I pretty much read it ten times and all I can come up with is that it's pretty convoluted.
Yea, I want to shoot like Asprinbuster and Jeff K, but I really wanted to shoot like Howard and Byron (gappers), but couldn't string a 100 pound bow sitting down. Pretty much a waste of time trying emulate a guy that's 1 in a 100,000 or more." quote
GDS made a video shooting at 50 yards (stumping) and in the end his target was close to 60 yards. If he was shooting again at another stump in that range of distance his brain would have known is not 50 yards since he received the information of what 60 yards means.
OK,,believe me, I do not shoot toernements nor do I believe it is necessary for me to do so to shoot a Bow or kill animals.
This is your narrative, to knock those who shoot instinctive because you are not seeing anyone walk away with a Buckle or show a buckle collection?
Here is your quote:
I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive. They don't consistently win any tournaments (might even say rarely) and they can't shoot distance (good reasons they can't). I've read G. Fred Asbel. It's a tribute to what a great writer he is, but I'm amazed that any one tries it. I pretty much read it ten times and all I can come up with is that it's pretty convoluted."quote
Because they "rarely" win a tournement? Why should you assume that most people want to even shoot a Tournement? LMBO
Maybe next time prepise your posts ** Tournement shooters only**
If you do not shoot Tournements? Do not say it is because I said so but because I believe it is so because a Tournament is the only way you learn to shoot a Bow!
If you would leave out everyone else that does not shoot "YOUR WAY", then you could run posts like this unapposed.
Not all of us have money or desire to drive to tournements and would rather spend our money on going hunting or even fishing and socilaize at Church maybe? 10-4
I agree with Sarge and Elderly on this. I enjoy reading anything on shooting help. But this one started out with saying basically you suck and you cannot hit a barn from 2'. You can only shoot shoot like me.
Bowmania presented a simple step-by-step approach to learn the gap method of shooting a single string bow. His first sentence allows the non-believers to ignore and continue to shoot as you like. Another example of many folks "kicking a gift horse in the mouth". Some of you folks need to "get a life". Joel
"Gift Horse" LMBO, you bet, got anymore "Iron Minded" Opinions?
You need to get a life Joel, stop selling junk that makes people think they need more gadgets and clickers to sell your stuff. If you and others here would stop hosing down everybody else's methods to sell your own, there would be less banter and confusion. The way you do it may not be the way I do it to meet my needs.
I killed a WT Buck and an Elk the first year I picked up a Bow and had only one gude to do it, was Too shorts video on "Instinctive shooting" and it came out wayyyyyyyyy back when in 1995 and before all this hype and hysteria from people selling a product to make money on others by convincing them they had TP because they shot Instinctive with a swing draw. Calling total salesmanship what it is! Bye bye,,tata
Actually I think all these form threads are really for people who would like to shoot this way and don’t apply to those who don’t. Not meant for debates. If you think you shoot instinctive and never see the arrow God bless you move on. If you read these and it give you something to think about and work on great.
Joel, Glad ot be there on your list because if it means I have to degrade everyone else like you do to sell some little clicker or convince people you have a stronger mind than them, I certainly do not need it because actually, I'm calling BS on what you are selling because I have a strong enough mind to know the difference. Besides, I was killing deer Instinctive long before I ever heard of any of the modern Tournement coaching methods and probably before you were out of HS.
I'm 84 Sarge how old are you. It seems you're really hung up on me selling you something. Has somebody "ripped you off" on selling you something at one time and if so get over it. For all you know, I've probably killed more animals with a bow than you've ever seen in the woods. Joel
And I hope you continue to enjoy Woods and Wonder!
Watch what you want, do what you want, but do not infringe on what others chose to do by slandering how they do it!
When you hose down and berate well accomplished people like Asbell and others because they shoot "Instinctive" or by what their equipment choices are, you are going down a Rabbit hole that leads to others questioning why you need to make fun of others to make your point.
Lay off the good guys and well knowns and lay out your points by their merit based quality and not by slanderlously accusing them of being somehow less than.
I may not agree with everything that Asbell says but I certainly do respect him enough to have enjoyed his books etc.
I'm sorry Todd I guess I hi-jacked your thread with my comments. Your information and easy to follow pointers on learning how to use a gap is far to important to get lost in unrelated comments. Thanks again Bowmania. Joel
No the thread was "Jacked" from the beginning by Todds hosing down of some great people to seemingly make his method somewhat superior in every way?
Start off threads without any nauseous remarks and you will likely get a better response.
The peer pressure of these guys all croonied up at or attending these major shoots makes it possible to have many allies to slay the competition and express what they think is paramount to their success and then push coaching and an agenda that they believe everyone else should adhere to.
badgerman- you didn’t jack any threads. From Sarge’s responses he thinks your Joel Turner. Lol
If anyone jacked the thread it was Sarge again. Not sure why the modes don’t tell him to knock it off and stay off threads that don’t pertain to him but they got a lot of guy from AT for this exact reason. Maybe they should tell him to knock it off.
Thanks Jason for your supportive comments. I really want this thread to continue as I'm sure many are gaining helpful information that will help their shooting. Joel
Here is what I think,,,,,, I appreciate the thread, and post from Todd, and the explanation.... The guy has ten times the smarts I have, and understands, what is needed to be good...
However, I truly do not believe I am instinctive, since somewhere my brain, is judging the yardage, and my bow arm makes an adjustment......
I have literally killed more woodcock than most in my life, and shooting a side by side, even for skeet at times, and shooting skeet in the Air Force, I was asked, by some how to shoot,,,, I always said, I have no idea, I just swing, its a feel, that about all I could ever say.......
honestly I appreciate good dog work, but hard for me to explain how I kill birds,,,,,,
My longbow, kills deer, and I am pretty good at it, but again I do not shoot target scores well.... maybe its because I do not have the discipline, or care much about target shooting, yet when it comes to live game, I am a true killer.......
Ground hunter- no one is saying don’t shoot what works for you. Todd is giving advice on this style of shooting to help people that can benefit. If your dialed in do what you do. If you think you can benefit from anything use it.
Some of us enjoy these threads. If they're not your cup of tea, do like your mama should have told you. Keep your mouth shut and keep walking. Problem solved. Keep em coming, Todd.
As I stated in my first post on this thread, you do you. Let me do me. This place is getting worse than talking politics. The wackos on the extreme end of both sides do nothing but argue and never accomplish anything. Everything evolves, including archery. Just because people choose to shoot a different way than "we've always done it" doesn't mean it's wrong. If it's not for you its not for you. Move on. Start a thread about your chosen shooting style. I'll acknowledge it for what it is and leave you to your own devices. I just ask you to do the same.
Another problem is most split finger guys that have low anchors will have to gap way way below the target with fairly fast setups. Unless they use vey very long arrows. >
Ever try to gap using the ground in front of a target and using arrow tip?. Try picking a leaf or a point on the ground to shoot? Sux, better be prepared to hold and locate that leaf for quite some time. Not fun, and a lot of time you loose your sight picture on bows with short riser cut outs unless you cant the heck out of them, most times the top of the riser blinds the target. Shooting three under really benefits the gap arrow tip aiming method. Most long time archers will not want to make that switch either.
Draven, I'm sure Bowmania shoots split finger and uses the Gap for his aiming. He does not do fixed crawl or string walking. Read his original post again and he explains his system in great detail. Joel
Sorry Badgerman, Bowmania states he will not get into string walking but then speaks about fixed crawls. Fixed crawl to me is string walking with one point. That is the way I took it.
I'm sorry Draven you're right. I re-read Bowmania's original post and he did give instructions for a fixed crawl. I guess I need to pay a little closer attention. He mainly talked about Gap shooting, and at the end did cover the Fixed crawl. Joel
Thanks Draven, true, most bows I shoot are over 170 fps rigs. I also have a fairly low anchor. At 15 yards I have to aim way below my point of impact when shooing split.
High anchors with short draws, heavy arrows , and smoother rigs will be able to usually gap much better with split finger release.
There was a V bow sight that helped with distance estimation. The V was curved but calibrated to match a 15-inch body height and all you had to do was create a 15-inch square. Suppose there had to be some interpretation for size of the deer.
It would have been OK if it wouldn't have started with;
"I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive. They don't consistently win any tournaments (might even say rarely) and they can't shoot distance (good reasons they can't). I've read G. Fred Asbel. It's a tribute to what a great writer he is, but I'm amazed that any one tries it. I pretty much read it ten times and all I can come up with is that it's pretty convoluted."
Saw it advertised a lot in Archery magazine 'bout when we all used slide rules to do our math. That was when we thought if you shot instinctive, that meant you didn't shoot in the freestyle division. Don't think that v sight would help much for those short 20 yard distances we shoot now though since it would be calibrated for much more than twice that thinking of when they were made.
Sarge - Sam Dunham - I don't fully understand this statement you made above. "It is perfectly OK to say what you are pushing and the premise of why but you first hosed down many other Coaches and famous Shooters right after you made your first statement.If you would like to push what Blackmon or the Iron Mind guy are all pushing? Leave out everyone else in history before you do that or you will be challenged."
Would you elaborate so I make sure I get it right? I don't want to misread intent.
Again, I'm confused. Badgerman posts "I agree probably everyone gap shoots, as stated in my earlier post. To add to this I think Bowmania's and Jimmy Blackmon's learning method is far superior to "trial and error", which I've done for many years. I wish I would have had this information years ago which I'm sure would have made me a much better shooter. I don't subscribe to the adage that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks", but in my case you're talking about a real "old dog" so in that case the adage may apply. Thanks again Bowmania for all your detailed, up-to-date, proven step by step knowlegable insight into shooting a single string bow with a high degree of accuracy. Joel"
To which Sam replies...
"Pushing a product, the salesmanship never ends."
Please explain this one as well. I'm not sure I understand the intent.
"I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive. They don't consistently win any tournaments (might even say rarely) and they can't shoot distance (good reasons they can't). I've read G. Fred Asbel. It's a tribute to what a great writer he is, but I'm amazed that any one tries it. I pretty much read it ten times and all I can come up with is that it's pretty convoluted."
Here you go Blackman, this was the OP.
No need for all this initial condescention in the OP. He should just explain his method and why it works for him.
I am glad you came out, will be waiting to see where you go with this, High or low?
Again, I'm confused. Badgerman posts "I agree probably everyone gap shoots, as stated in my earlier post. To add to this I think Bowmania's and Jimmy Blackmon's learning method is far superior to "trial and error", which I've done for many years. I wish I would have had this information years ago which I'm sure would have made me a much better shooter. I don't subscribe to the adage that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks", but in my case you're talking about a real "old dog" so in that case the adage may apply. Thanks again Bowmania for all your detailed, up-to-date, proven step by step knowlegable insight into shooting a single string bow with a high degree of accuracy. Joel" To which Sam replies...
"Pushing a product, the salesmanship never ends."
Please explain this one as well. I'm not sure I understand the intent.
You understand it very well. Convincing people they need a coach to shoot a Bow is a mantra beaten every day in shooting threads here to win Tournements.
MBB volumes contain shooting instruction and good instruction is available here and all over the Net, you should know that, you have a wad of videos on the same subject.
I think there is a profit to be made by Coaches and methods and some here and everywhere else are pushing Coaching and Clinics, right?
I mean let me ask you Jimmy, how many people here have paid a Coach?
I am sure you would like to see your friends in Coaching make money but of course, that is another thread title.
I submit to you and everyone else that Asbells method is just as legitamite as anyone elses for the intended purpose and Asbell has the Heads to prove it!
I would also submit that "Winning Tournements" does not make a person a better hunter and the comparison is not valid.
I've left you alone. I have not even posted much, but I check in and see you commenting on all posts that mention me or my videos. Why couldn't you just leave me out of this?
My content is free. I don't make money in archery.
Why not just do your thing and leave me out of this?
I don't wish to derail Bowmania's excellent thread, but I'd be interested in hearing about the aiming techniques used by archers shooting at distances of 100 yards and above. It always seems to be the case that whenever this question is asked in a serious context such as shooting the York round, It always attracts those who have never done it, to be the most vocal in offering their expert opinion.
Phil, I will venture to say the accuracy in that case is a result of how good the data was stored into the brain through repetitions with good results. This data is retrieved and used through intuition - intuition is a process that gives us the ability to know something directly without analytic reasoning. It is not like you are looking for the cloud you aimed at yesterday and because is a sunny day today you don't hit your target. If someone will try to describe how intuitive process works in writing will have a Best Seller.
Bomania, In the spirit of your original post. There is nothing wrong with shooting instinctive if you consistently hit what you are aiming at. Unfortunately, many of us don't. That's what drove me to aiming methods. I was getting outshot by people with a system, so I wanted to know what they did that I didn't. Here are several videos I done over the years on gapping.
Phil, when flight shooting such as for Archery Golf, by experimentation I now have a good handle on what 45 degrees actually is and how far down range that will get me with the bow and arrow set up I have in hand. (Figured that out with an assistants help and a level and angle finder) But that is Golf, where the shot is going to be a par 2 or 3 no matter what. I am merely seeking the longest cast possible.
For a specific distance, such as a York round, or a 100 yard shot at a novelty 3D I gap, counting number of gaps above the target. That drives me to a particular point of aim above the target. It doesn't matter if the final point of aim is blue sky or not. I reached correct elevation much as an artillery gunner of old increased elevation by turning a hand crank. Did he care if the barrel of that Howitzer was pointed at blue sky? As long as I keep line while moving up I don't care if I see the target or not.
And the salemanship and exposure begins in full force to discredit Insitinctive shooting.
It all revolves around plastic animals and paper targets and "Getting beat" by other people standing around static while looking at the Target for 20 mins figuring out the best angle and how far away it is.
All of this is "Circling the Wagons" around 3D shoots that they all want you to attend and shoot for Buckles.
I have fun, and I shoot the way I do by choice. I will ALWAYS be a hunter first, but I enjoy 3d shoots, indoor rounds, and stumping. It all helps me be as accurate as I possibly can while hunting. Once again, you do you. Those of us that choose to shoot differently than you will do what we do. If you're so upset about how some of us choose to shoot, why keep coming back to this thread? Who gives a RIP if someone did find a way to make financial gains from archery? More power to em!
Thank you, Mr. Blackmon, bowmania and the like. I for one appreciate all the info you share for FREE
Paul,Draven... thank you for your thoughtful replies. I guess my own method of aiming at 100 yard + is a combination of conscious estimation and engram motor planning based on thousands of arrows.
To answer one of the questions Bowmania asked in his first post, according to Prof Jim Gage and his work with children with Cerebral Palsy, it takes around 5000 repititons of a motor task before it becomes a Pyramadial Engram (ingrained)
Sarge you could also tune your bow so you can aim at the heart and hit them in the hoof---wouldn't that be a hoot. Thanks again to Todd and Jimmy, you both gave very clear and helpful information in spite of the "unwanted and off the subject" static that you had to contend with. Joel
I like Mr. Blackmon’s videos very informative and has helped a lot of people. The only thing though is no one told him that it’s no good for killing deer. Lol
Did you watched the "Gap compromise" video? If you skip the "boring" stuff and jump to 18:00 you will get the good stuff: how to apply the knowledge of your bow+arrow and gapping aiming method with success in the woods where judging the distance perfectly is not No 1 on your list, but the "I feel I can kill it".
Because the affirmation : "The only thing though is no one told him that it’s no good for killing deer" it is just smoke from pa.
Any aiming method used will make you a better instinctive shooter when the situation requires sharp and decisive actions in a very small time frame. IT IS TRUE that without learning an aiming method you can be a good shot too, but requires 1 of the 2 things: a lot of time invested in mindful training or stalker skills that bring you so close to the animal you could kill it with a knife.
Yea I watched it. Very good. I think I’ve watched all of them. For the low low price of $0. Mr. Blackmon if you read this your gonna have to stop shooting that way it’s not affective for killing deer! Lol I crack myself up.
I don’t know about you guys but I was recently at a 3D shoot. Shot with 4 great guys. No binoculars, no score cards, we all shot a little different and we all had fun. I am with Sarge on one thing. I didn’t get my belt buckle and my belly kept pushing my pants down so I’m all for the suspenders. Although now many people call them braces. Oh man did I just say that? I’ve opened another can of worms!
Any "hard" aiming method learnt will make you a better instinctive shooter when the situation requires sharp and decisive actions in a very small time frame. IT IS TRUE that without learning an aiming method you can be a good shot too, but requires 1 of the 2 things: a lot of time invested in mindful training or stalker skills that bring you so close to the animal you could kill it with a knife.
Sarge, the only stalking I read about in here is sitting on a chair and waiting the prey to come in - I don't talk about scouting etc. I think the single one I've read telling about stalking and killing is Larry Hatfield.
Sam - I'm a bit confused. The video you posted is anti tournament and anti competition.
But the post you posted above it says, "Aerial and moving targets needs ot be injected into the tournement shoots to make it more realistic with hunting."
All this low bow poundage and lite arrows and holding at full draw is driving a lower poundage draw weight and lite arrow to win tournements.
Less arrow weight, less gaps!
The problem with this narrative you seem to be pushing is leading to the lower weight more complicated aiming methods that will end up in the field and end up gimping animals with less penetration of an arrow.
It is diluting simplicity and promoting Tournament wins and selling more stuff to the consumer that in the long run, only leads to more tech and less effective hunting weight bows and arrows.
Jimmy, you seem to be confused a lot? What is it that you do not comprehend?
I have been very clear in my videos. They have separate titles and touch on several aspects of the topic.
"I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot instinctive. They don't consistently win any tournaments (might even say rarely) and they can't shoot distance (good reasons they can't). I've read G. Fred Asbel. It's a tribute to what a great writer he is, but I'm amazed that any one tries it. I pretty much read it ten times and all I can come up with is that it's pretty convoluted." quote
So how do you interpret this?
"convoluted" seems like you should take this up Jimmy, you know like you did on me?
Is Instinctive shooting "Convoluted" as in the OP's opening?
He started out making fun of a method used ot shoot a Bow for 100's of years to make his point about his propasals.
Pretty comical that you've stereotyped target archers as low poundage/light arrow. I shoot year round, indoor/3d/and hunting, with my 57# longbow and 600 grain arrow using a subconscious and conscious gap given the game and/or distance. I've won the state 3d and punched tags using this gear and my style of shooting.
Most are horrible shots, they should get a hard reference of some kind and make it happen. Others, the select few who have the mental capacity and desire to work hard, should continue on and shoot instinctively..... with practice and memory leading the way. Most cannot do it, too mentally unstable to remain calm at the center.
Isn't the object to hit what you are aiming at? Whether it's a leaf, a deer's heart, a squirrel's head, or an 11 ring on a foam animal doesn't everyone want to hit what they are aiming at? Is there anyone that enjoys shooting who actually draws the bow, points the arrow at something, and says, "You know, I think I'll shoot over this ones back?"
So, if we agree that we all want to hit, the question becomes, what will make me hit at the highest percentage. If you can hit 85-90% of the time just looking at it, maybe that's good enough for you. If you just hunt and your object is to not wound deer, then maybe you can do that without aiming or maybe you need an aiming system. Maybe you want to win the local 3D shoot, but you need something to help you reference in order to score high enough. I could go on and on.
The bottom line is that we all have goals and aspirations. In order to achieve them, we might need to use tools - ie. gapping, string walking, face walking, etc.
I don't care how you achieve success as you have defined it, but don't judge others because they have different goals and aspirations. Also, don't get your feelings hurt if they are suddenly much more accurate than you because they decided to remove variables by shooting the bow vertical, using back tension, focusing on consistency etc.
I like that Blackmon, good post and a good post script analysis to this thread and a really good re-buttal to the OP's premise of hosing down the instinctive method to build up his own.
Thank ya Jimmy, let it end with your analysis.
Great Boy by the way, Gods blessings and protection on him.
Sarge - at least you don't make archery cookie cutter boring.
I like shooting with archers that shoot instinctively, I hard aim, but still instinctive guys that let them fly and consistantly whether hit the mark or not, are interesting and good dudes, whether on the range/3D course/online forums most of the time. it is really not that big of a deal.
I dunno. Seems like the method you describe is just split vision aiming, as first described by Howard Hill. May start as gapping, (Hill used peripheral vision) but over time, one learns what the correct arrow orientation is for any particular shot.
Using the swing draw and focusing only on the target arrives at the same end through a lot of practice. Even though one may not consciously view the arrow, even in one's peripheral vision, the subconscious sees it and adjusts the aim through repeated practice.
I practice both, but mostly use split vision. I agree, though, that as targets get farther away, say 40 yards or more, they're not as accurate as using the tip of the arrow (or some mark on the riser) in some form of gapping. One can gap above the intended target as well as below it, of course.