This is an idea I've had for a while, but I'm looking for more constructive input.

What my idea is:

Place a 10" tube at center on one of my 30 gal plastic drums.

Then, I am going to fill the area between the tube, and the drum with ballistic gel. Once the gel cures I'll then remove the tube.

I originally was thinking to use a 15" tube, but the gel is to represent muscle, and other heavy body tissue, and I decided I wanted it to be thicker.

These drums I use are parallel walled with an 18.5" inside diameter, and a 18.75" outside diameter. 1/8" wall thickness. That wall thickness don't seem like much, but it is tough (very tough), and absolutely as tough as the living bone of a scapula, or ribs.

What that will produce is a hard yet flexible (similar to bone) initial contact to penetrate, then a 4.25" thickness of ballistic gel to penetrate after that, and that's just getting through one side. Double up that resistance to get through both sides.

The 10" dead air space at center is just to represent a lung area hit. Lungs don't present much resistance at all, but if I can come up with something similar to them I'll fill that 10" space with it.

The body fluid lubrication factor is something I haven't figured out for sure yet, but I definitely want to have that introduced into the test.

I'm think that, just using a well lubricated shaft & broadhead (with something like Slick50) will work.

[[[ Your input/ideas for this are asked for, and more than welcomed. ]]]

This will take time, and time isn't a readily available commodity for me these days, but soon I hope.

Rick

Dead cow?

Airisolized jello? I'm not sure if that is possible.

I watched a archer test his self bow and stone points on a freshly killed deer. You can't get more real than that. I don't remember the exact results but he was using a pretty light selfbow and with stone points he got plenty enough penetration to kill a deer. There is a lot of variables when dealing with penetration besides the weight of the arrow and poundage of your bow. You could spend a lifetime chasing your tail on that subject. All I can say is good is good enough.lol

We always used fresh deer shoulders with the hide still on for testing edge retention. At times we also took a rack of ribs with a hide over them to shoot though. I see no reason you couldn’t lay that in front of ballistic gel to test penetration

Just to be clear.

I am looking for ideas for "artificial" mediums, that:

(A) Provide a reliable consistency in density & resistance across their entirety.

(B) Have similar average characteristics of density & resistance of that of a large tough animal.

(C) Provide a large enough area to shoot multiple test shots into before changing the density & resistance of the materials used.

(D) Can be replicated, and don't cost an arm & leg to produce, or replicate.

Animals do not posses any of those characteristics.

The three main drawbacks with animals are:

(1) Two animals who look, and even weigh the same, can (and often do) have very different densities in their body tissues. This applies even if they are of the same species, and especially if of different species.

(2) Moving your shots around to different spots on any animal will result in the arrows striking areas with different (much different) density & resistance.

(3) You aren't going to get more than one or two shots into small animal parts before that part has become seriously damaged, thus producing degraded density & resistance following every shot.

Rick

I was just reading a scientific study saying MDF made a great substitute for a human skull in high velocity impact tests.

Rick,

I've watched your YouTube videos , love them , and we take very different steps to try to accomplish the same task. Which is to say I still have some excellent take aways from every one.

That being said , I think it would be a mistake to try to mimic live flesh. Let's stick with wet, clean sand inside , say, a cardboard box .

I don't think we want variables in penetration tests.

Aaron

Rick, unless you're using some sort of fibrous material I think the simple mathematical formulas will work as well as anything.

If you want to mimic animal tissue you will likely need a wet gel medium mixed with some organic fibers of some sort, something that needs to experience a cutting action to get through.

I've seen hard hat tests done using watermelon, somebody figured out they are close to the consistency of a human skull. Not sure if that will help in your application but just throwing it out there. Maybe the inside of the watermelon?

Try a commercial spray-on bedliner on a 20x20 BLOB target, maybe? That would be more dense than fat and muscle with a tough outer covering.

i looked up the mechanical properties of pvc vs bone years ago and came up with a 2x thickness of pvc is about equal to 1x of bone. a couple of flat sheets with gel or meat in between would be a pretty good test i think. and a consistent suface. which is hard to do with real animal parts.

Now you using field points or broad heads?

I can't count as many arrows that broke bone whether it be chest or leg bones or vertibras? Amassing what sharp broad heads did that were very sharp unlike what a field point might do?

I know just for fun right.

Rick I'd be more inclined to try two inches of gel, then a piece of the drum plastic, then another two inches of gel, to represent a shoulder hit on a big animal. Your set up sounds perfect for testing penetration on Galapagos tortoises- but you're not allowed to shoot them:) JayInOz

Bruce, no argument from me about the mathematics formulas, but I want to shoot something. 8^)

Any suggestions for fibrous material to use?

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RymanCat - Yes. I said I would be using a broadhead, and lubricating it & the shaft to simulate the lubricating properties of the body fluids. Probably use slick50.

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Jay, I thought about that, and may do it. Just have to figure out how to get the gel onto the outside of the drum. Maybe it will be flexible/stretchy enough to remove it from the inside, then pull it over the outside.

P.S. This is going to take a lot of gel. LOL

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Bud, the spray on bed liner is a great idea to use as a simulation of the outer skin & hair. If I can get the gel on the outside of the drum, the bed liner would be awesome as the outer coating for it.

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Keep them ideas rollin.

Rick

Rick, like your idea of a controlled repeatable test. If tissue is subjected to an intrusion does it react immediately by squeezing muscles to minimize damage? Do not know, but thought i’d Ask the panel. At 150 FPS it may be moot as the reaction would be too late to affect the moving shaft.

Rick. Get you some tanned hides to wrap on the outside of barrel. Should be able to find some in different thicknesses at a boot repair shop. That is where I have gotten some in the past. Hide, piece of barrel, gel, barrel and hide. It might work

I think it'll work just peachy and be just as valid as any (and more than some) penetration test that has been done.

In any kind of testing there are always variables, and what if's and you can't eliminate them all.

That being said, you ever get down this way we can go try and so some tesing on some live hogs. :)

Ballistics gell is the worst media for arrow penetration tests. It closes in on the arrow shaft and only shows how much friction a particular type of arrow shaft or broadhead produces in gell.

Living skin, muscle, blood and bone react far differently than gell. The blood lubricates the arrow as it passes through. Every hit on an animal is different.

Unripe Mellon may be good idea. We're mostly made of water anyway.

Speak for yourself Tlhbow- I'm almost entirely made up of muscles and brains:)

Rick it shouldn't take a lot of gel. Make a box of some sort to use as a form, fill it with the liquid gel then slide a piece of plastic down in the middle of it. Or just drive around the roads in your area early in the morning looking for road kill:) JayInOz

Hee hee hee jayinoz. Didn't look at that angle . Mabe packaging peanuts or the stuffing for stuffed animals .

You might use Glycerin for to represent blood and fat lubrication. It is not as slick as oil but slicker than water, which blood is and won't be wiped off as easily as water. Lungs are still tissue, not dead air space, using packing peanuts sounds like as good as anything to for lung tissue representation, light and not dense. Real lungs have mass to them, in which the broadhead has to cut through and be pushed through. If you have a small piece of deer hide to put over the ballistic gel would represent the skin needless to say which the arrow has to go through. It would/will be hard to represent the blood lubrication though out the medium. The only thing I can think of at the moment is, if you have deer hide, place a sandwich bag with the glycerin in it, squeeze all the air out, and tape it over the ballistic gel behind the hide where you will be aiming. Maybe have enough glycerin in the bag to make the bag 1/8 inch thick at the most. The arrow will then be lubricated just past the skin and as it is entering the ballistic gel, as it would be when entering an animal. I don't see any way to represent blood lubrication in the ballistic gel (it will have a non-lubing wiping effect as the arrow passes through) and though the represented lung cavity as would happen in a live animal, unless you can find a way to lightly lube the packing peanuts with the glycerin. All tissue, even bone to some extent because of blood feeding it, in a live animal is a moist medium. Just some thoughts. DANNY

[[[ Okaw: "Ballistics gell is the worst media for arrow penetration tests. It closes in on the arrow shaft and only shows how much friction a particular type of arrow shaft or broadhead produces in gell.

Living skin, muscle, blood and bone react far differently than gell. The blood lubricates the arrow as it passes through. Every hit on an animal is different." ]]]

I thought about this a lot last night, then it hit me.

Jay's input about putting the gel on the outside of the drum makes even more sense to me now, especially if the gel has to be stretched a little to do it.

Molding the gel on the inside of the drum, then removing & stretching that mold over the outside is going to cause it to separate as it is cut, instead of contracting/compressing onto the arrow shaft. It will react very much like living tissue.

I am going to lubricate the arrow "completely" (vanes & all) before each shot, so lack of lubrication isn't going to be a problem.

Rick

Here's an idea for ya. Have a pig shoot and use a dead pig and then cook him and eat him after he or she was tenderized by the shots.

When you pull the arrows stick some garlic in holes.

When they do some blade testing on the Forged in Fire show don't they use a carcass.

Once again not a real live test its man ufactured. Designed by man for what is the gain not a real test.

Just some thoughts and all in fun. Its intended.

LOL Cat - Once again you've missed the point.

No surprise. 8^)

Go read what I have posted above. Then, either contribute accordingly, or go away.

Rick

While penetration tests are fun, for Bowhunters there is a tremendous amount of data out there on what kind of gear has successfully worked on various sizes of big game. If you are concerned about whether your equipment set up is adequate for a certain size of big game there is a wealth of practical experience on this site as well as tons of written information to lay to rest any concerns you may have. If your goal is to test the relative performance of different set ups to each other, then by all means come up with some test parameters like Rick is proposing.

Out of curiosity Rick, what poundage bow are you looking at using for this test? Heavy weight or somewhere between 45 to 55 pounds, what MOST people use on here. I can tell you personally, I would rather see what a lighter bow draw weights would do with this test. I know what a heavier bow will show, blow through. DANNY

Danny, I shoot just under 70#, but I have a couple of lighter weight bows, and will definitely do some testing with them as well.

"When" I get to do any of it at all.

I am also thinking about fixing this thing where I can haul it around to some of the shoots, (advertised ahead of time) to give folks an opportunity to test their setups on it.

Rick

Jello in ziplock bag for lungs, grass clipping for stomach in bag, pvc pipe for leg bone. I sure you will find something suitable Rick.

Basin Boy answered questions about lighter bows on his, "big boar hog" thread.

"Hello Batman, I was shooting my Black Hunter Longbow it’s 45#@28” but I only draw to 26” so around 40#’s I was using some dirtnap knock-offs I ordered from China. Did a pretty good job on the thick shield on this boar!"

Rick- I think you've taken on a challenging project. Even Dr. Ashby's tests on freshly killed animals weren't perfect because living animals can be moving, be tense, or exhibit other variables that are inconsistent. If your goal is to test the retention of momentum, you might consider using water. It is consistent, cheap, eliminates the need to lubricate. Arrows will penetrate pure water farther than they will flesh and tissue, but what is important you could compare the distance traveled of various arrows. Using broadheads would not be needed so that would eliminate the possibility that one BH would be more sharp or more efficient than another. I think being able to keep the shot closer to horizontal would be best, but you might need to slightly angle down if using some type of tank.

The followin was posted by Tinbow in another topic.

[[[ ""Rick Slick 50"

Mabe a piece of carpet stuck to the outside of the plastic with slick 50 poured on it . Be like hide then blood as well." ]]]

I think this is an excellent idea.

Rick

Don't need Slick 50, just use vegetable oil. DANNY

Danny - coconut oil !!!!!

It's slick as snot, available in large containers, and best of all it's cheap. 8^)

Since the ballistic gel will be stretched over the outside of the drum, the carpet will be mounted to it.

The gel being stretched should make it react very much like living tissue.

If the carpet (or whatever) it mounted to the gel with good contact across it's entire area, then it should travel with, and in the same direction as the gel when it contracts outside the cuts, thus making it react much like living skin.

We're getting there.

Rick

There are a bunch of videos on yutube for making slime. My kids make it sometimes using soap. It can be slick and slimy with substance like guts.

Forgot about that ky phil my granddaughter makes it often with glue and liquid detergent.

I was doing more reading on the homemade ballistic gel, and it may have to be removed from the parts list for this project.

From what I'm reading, you have to cool it to get it to gel, and have to keep it cool, or it will start to loose consistence & melt.

Anyone have any experience with it?

Rick

I looked into using some clear silicone, but that stuff is almost $200 for a 5 gal bucket, and I'm pretty sure it's gonna take more than 5 gallons to fill that space.

We'll work it out.

Rick

You guys have been hunting for how many years now and yer worried about penetration now?

Prolly 60% of yunzs otta just practice more so ya can hit the darn deer.

A field point will zip through a deers rib cage.

Roy, it has nothing to do with worry, and everything to do with learning.

I've never had a penetration problem when hunting. Ever.

Especially, when I was hunting with a 98# recurve shooting 600gr arrows as fast as most middle of the road compounds in those days.

I don't "worry" about it, but I sure would like to "nail down" the minimums just to see.

It's called curiosity. :-)

Rick

:)

Try a dead cow. - lbg

Or what Ryman Cat said. Makes sense to me. - lbg

I might make it look like a dead cow.

Speaking of dead cows. Ever seen them run over one in a bicycle race? It's gruesome.

Rick

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