It's kind of a rainy day here, and I felt like doing an arrow penetration test. This is by no means compared to a Rick Barbee test, but similar. I took a brand new 5 gallon Homer Home Depot bucket, filled it with wet sand. Shots were taken from 20 yards, with the same bow. Black Widow PSA, 46 @ 28". Two arrow weights were used, a Gold Tip Hunter arrow, with a 175 grain point, 450 grains total. Same arrow with a 250 grain point and some parachute cord inside to make the total arrow weight 650 grains. Both tune to the bow with excellent arrow flight. Both arrows penetrated the face of the bucket and stopped in the back side of the bucket equally. On the final series of shots, the 450 grain arrow did penetrate 3/4" more than the 650 grain arrow. I realize buckets are not wild game. But.. I did come to my own conclusion that the only benefit I can personally see between a 650 grain arrow and a 450 grain arrow is a loss of speed, or less of a point on distance. I like faster arrows and flatter shooting. Looks like i'll continue on with the 450's. I know there's a big 650 grain hype, but results are results.

8^)

The 450gr arrow is in that magic window of 9 to 10 gpp. 9.78 to be exact.

I'm not at all surprised.

I've thought about filling one of the 30 gal drums with sand, and shooting it, but that's a lot of work just to find out what I already know.

Rick

The army has performed this test for you....kind of....it's cool to watch.

https://youtu.be/i71_R5nL33Q

I hear you and totally agree

Cool video with great sound effects. lol

Odd, because the 650 grain arrow gets more energy out of the bow. How much I don't know. I just shoot what I tune with.

Bowmania

I chronographed both arrow setups. The 650 grain arrow is 140fps. The 450 grain arrows is 175fps.

Which arrow was quieter? Was this "test" performed with field tips or broadheads?

Every set up will reach diminishing returns at some point as arrow weight increases-- every set up everytime. Some bows really handle increases in arrow weight well.

Neat test and pretty consistent with Ricks findings.

Theres always the point of diminishing returns.

[[[ "How about going out and find a turkey to shoot or a ground hog or carp. Why play silly games like these? Just asking why?" ]]]

Because some folks like/love to expand their knowledge/understanding of things.

Simple as that. 8^)

Rick

That is the way to find out things. The folks way back when, knew 10 grains per pound of bow weight was close to Optimum. Rick verified it just a while back. When you take the trouble to test things,not only are you convinced but you remember them well. >>>----> Ken

Rymancat... “silly games” that’s about the dummest thing I’ve heard in a while. Maybe you misread my post, it’s a rainy day and I had a little time to shoot my bow. Turkey season doesn’t open for another two weeks. Bowfishing in the rain is no fun. Guess I had to resort to silly games in my back yard, getting first hand information from my bow setup. Maybe I should have grilled an elk steak from that 450 grain arrow setup instead. There’s always gotta be one bad apple.

I personally like to do things like this. Thanks for you imfo on your RAINY day fun test. I may of miss this but did you try it with broadheads too. Tks

I only Tested them with field points. I’ll post up some photos a little bit later

Again, neat test! I applaud anyone that takes the time to learn more about their equipment. Time well spent. Thanks for sharing your results. Rick and Jinkster have some very cool YouTube videos of similar testing.

Here’s the test range.

The 650 grain arrow has the red nock. The 450 grain arrow has the white nock.

anybody know how to flip these photos? I thought they looked good when I posted them.

Anything that gets you out shooting your bow is cool by me. I am a firm believer of the "diminished return" theory. For me I will side on the flatter/faster group. Wounding a animal due to yardage miscalculation worries me more than the penetration issue.

What's so silly about it?

Ryman - I've seen your posts pooh-poohing people shooting at targets with spots, paper plates, 3D targets, people shooting groups, and on and on. From what I can gather from your posts Ryman, the only thing you should ever shoot at is a living animal - and then you should trust that your killer instinct will kick in and you will make the shot. No need to practice or experiment, just go shoot an animal.

Anybody posting a picture of a shot at any kind of target what so ever gets your usual "killer" nonsense. I'm not disregarding you as a "killer", I'll take your word for it, and lord knows you tell us enough, its just that your "killer" routine has become tiresome, and is usually irrelevant to the conversations taking place on here.

Rymancat, too bad you’re all the way in Pennsylvania.. your comments are rude and not welcome on this thread. Sounds like you need a good old fashion walk about behind my barn. This is my first experience with you and hopefully the last. I spend a lot of time giving bows away, fletching arrows, guiding, drawing maps and helping others to their first archery kills. Your assumptions make you sound like an ass. Archery is supposed to be inclusive, your contributions to this thread are the opposite.

[[[ RymanCat: "If any of my killer buddy's ever tried something like this I'd walk away from them!!!!!!" ]]]

Promises Promises.

#WalkAway

8^)

Rick

Maybe silly but one of my favorite tests for broadheads was shooting them into an old 72 Duster that was sitting in the pasture down by the creek. Learned a lot doing that.

Cool deal Conner. Seams like I seen a bucket shot test many years back between a 30 06 and a arrow shot from a 60# bow, the arrow went through both sides where the bullet didn't . all test are good stuff.

CP,

Cool idea, anyone could try it. Thanks for mentioning the test and posting the results.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing your results!

Thanks for the info. Confirms what I have seen elsewhere. I like threads like this.

Shoot 9-10 GPP and be happy with it.

I'm guessing you didn't use a broadhead.

25 years ago I was invited to a hunter saftey course to give a talk and a demonstration. I'm sure you've all seen it - maybe not.

I had some equipment there and talked about it. They set up a 5 gallon bucket filled with sand and I think a guy shot it with a .300 Win Mag, may have been just a .3006. The they turn the barrel around and you don't see a hole it didn't go through.

At the time I was shooting 65 at 30 and knew it would blow through, but there were kids in the group. So before I went there I went to my archery club. At the sandbox for the kids I filled a bucket and shot it with my girlfriend 40 pound bow and 1816's with a MA-3 Small on the end. It blew through and stuck in a tree about a half inch.

So, now it's show time in front of at least 25 people. The set the thing up at a gun shooting range. The bucket was shoulder level and I shoot her bow and the arrow goes in about 6 inches.

I'm dumbfounded. I walk over to the barrel and see they filled it with gravel. I pull out the arrow and the tip is curled over. I showed it to every one and the blew through with my bow.

Somewhere on the net there's the same set up, but a woman shooting the gun and the bow, but with a big mirror behind the bucket. Arrow breaks the mirror where the gun didn't.

So with that in mind there might be a flaw in your test???

Bowmania

Either arrow would have been plenty deadly as well. Choices are good and thank Heaven we all aren't the same. I didn't need convinced of the power of a lower poundage bow, but there are still folks who always turn a blind eye and just don't give a crap. If you have an agenda to start with, these things won't convince you of anything. Experimenting is fun.

Your finding does parallel Rick's and that tells us a lot.

Do the same test on a leg bone. From my experience the heavy arrow wins.

Neat test.

Have you compared shooting very wet sand to bone dry sand?

My son killed a moose few years back and he brought it home in quarters. We did similar deal on shoulder with two blade Zwickey. One total weight was 475 the other 625. . Both went threw all the way with three inches out the other side heavier 1 1/2 farther. Bow weight was 45. I can't find my pics been about five years now

It's still raining here pretty good, I think I may shoot the bucket again when the weather clears up next week and I get some dry sand. I shot both arrows with field points, 5/16's diameter. I'd love to see the test that Flash is talking about. Does anyone have a link to his thread or pictures of 450 grain vs 650 grain arrows in a penetration test on leg bones?

Glen, if you don't like the thread, stay off of it. You're still alive, spend some time being thankful for that and stop harassing others. Now, take your meds, you obviously need them. Maybe a nap would help.

There is no "hype" to shooting the heavier arrow. Many of us do so and are pleased with how our arrows perform on real animals, not buckets. Heavier arrows tend to help produce a quieter shooting bow with less handshock. Don't call heavier arrows "hype" and then request a "debate free discussion!"

Rymancat you’re an interesting cat.... you asked for it. All killed with arrows way less than 650 grains... most in the 450 range, save a few. Pictures will probably be sideways, not sure how to change that.

RymanCat:

In all the time I have seen you here, 99% of your posts have been to ridicule just about anything where folks are talking about testing, experimenting, and "learning" in an effort to "improve" their abilities, and/or their results.

It's obvious you have very low reading comprehension skills. When you combine that with being a bitter old doofuss, and being sick too, it must be real difficult for you. I'm sorry for that, but it does not give you the right to be an asshole.

I wish you well, BUT I thought you were gonna #WalkAway? Please do.

Rick

+1 Rick

I have a pile of photos from when I started hunting with longbows and recurves the last 17 years. My freezers are full from 450 grain arrows, breaking bone and doing their job, the exact same as a slower 650 grain arrows that gives no benefits. If they do, let’s see some threads, pictures and proof. I’ll not continue to post on this thread and debate with Rymancat. I take care of patients like him with a smile while on shift, no need for the BS on days off and let alone about archery.

If you want pictures rymancat use he search bar and go look at some dead elk from lightweight bows and 450 grains.

I don't see why some are dismissive (other than this being the Leatherwall)of the test. If arrow "A" penetrates better than arrow "B" in a bucket of sand, how does arrow "B" penetrate better than arrow "A" on an animal.

As for the comments about buckets vs. real animals, buckets of sand are much more difficult to shoot through than deer or elk ribs. Deer and elk ribs are basically the same thickness as a couple paint stirring stick with a soft middle.

Conner, glad you are enjoying your widow.

I too like trying different set-ups/arrows/head/etc.

Nice post!

Just to be clear, I've killed plenty with 400 to 500grs. I would prefer avoiding heavy bone as well.

I'm surprised RymanCat is still allowed to post in here.?

Contributors who are argumentative, intolerant, confrontational, and lack respect for others will be removed. While debate is often healthy, habitual debaters and people who seek confrontation will be removed and potentially blocked from making future contributions. This is necessary to ensure a positive experience for the great majority of our visitors.

That's why I don't post here that often. Some guys think they know everything and everyone else is below them. This isn't the first time Glenn has been a jerk to someone, showing his true colors. That's all he does is put guys down... Seems he thinks might high of himself and his self proclaimed pedestal.

A guy that experiments with his equipment is a dangerous guy. Don't believe all you read on the Internet. Tests will show you how equipment performs for you.

Ryman doesn't need to be banned. This isn't TradGang. But he does deserve to be called out when he is talking his nonsense.

A 450 grain arrow going 175 fps generates .35 slug ft/sec of momentum

A 650 grain arrow going 140fps generates .4 slug ft/sec of momentum.

The 650 grain arrow has a 12.5% momentum improvement over the lighter arrow.

If the heavier arrow has a 12.5% increase, then why doesn’t it show on penetration testing? What real world example is a 12.5% gain for these arrows? Does that mean that the 650 grain arrow should have penetrated 12.5% more.

First, I'm not taking anything away from your test. Good data for reference. Is the sand consistently dense throughout? same with the plastic on the bucket, thickness at impact? Angle of impact? Are arrows perpendicular to the buck or off center? A flat target would be better. How was your release for each? Poor release changes velocity. Again, I'm not taking anything away from your testing just throwing some off the cuff reasons for the discrepancy.

Lowcountry, 100% agreement.

Hey Conner those are all good questions.

Yes the physics says the 650 should penetrate farther. How much ?

Why didn't it? could be a couple of things. - is the point larger on the 250 then the 175? Mine are. - were both arrows flying equally well. I've never seen a bare shaft arrow fly well with both a 250 and 175 on the same shaft. - Did they both hit at the same angle of the jug?

For real world example.... they'll both take deer all day long if placed correctly.

Scottinpa I agree. I’m necessarily trying to discredit the heavy arrows, I just do t see where their benefits are. Results are results, a 10gpp arrow in my tests and on real animals does anything that a 650 grain arrow would. Other than Ashby, where are the tests? Also, is every wild animal equally dense? On a side note, I never mentioned Rymancat should be banned, I do think he’s a jerk, there’s a difference.

You’re correct, point length is different. I took that into consideration. I have both arrows tuned to my bow a s shooting to what I consider excellent flight. The 450 penetrated the exact same or within a inch difference, sometimes more. If my tests are bad, then where are the good tests to show the differences in 650 vs 450 grain arrows?

I haven't been on this site in years, but wanted to jump on and say a few things today... First, Great test Conner P. Now we need to do it with one of my 343 gr. arrows out of your Widow and see how it performs.

Second, Rymancat or anyone spewing like him should be banned!

Third, Conner is a great friend and as likable a guy as you'll ever meet. He's also as accomplished at traditional archery and bowhunting as anyone I know. Someone I look up to and aspire to be more like. Keep up the good work buddy! Let the hatters hate

It's not Ryman's fault. He's going to do what the moderators let him get away with. (He's breaking the rules, which RC brought up, thank you, RC)

The sad thing is that people like Rick and OP loose their temper and step over the line because of him. I've been there, I had to come back and apologize. Not for fear of betting banned, but you're not supposed to loose your temper. Lot more manners on other places.

The first sentence of my form threads asks that that type of behavior is not wanted. He does not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have no respect for other opinions on this site.

Bowmania

Actually it is his fault, the fact that he pushes his bad behavior to where ever the limit might be is very poor form and character. There is no excuse for it, it is not acceptable behavior. I expect he is alone, all alone due to his behavior and any attention that he can gin up good or bad suits him just fine. As long as his need for any attention good or bad is satisfied and allowed by the powers that be then I guess we will endure more rambling, disrespectful and at times incoherent rants.

Defending poor behavior is just as bad as the poor behavior itself. I wouldn't tolerate it from my family, my friends, or anyone else I associate with, and I wouldn't expect them to tolerate it from me.

Hello Conner To answer your question whatever has the best momentum will penetrate the best all other things being equal.

Looking at what is inside that bucket, that does not appear to be and even uniformed medium for both arrows to penetrate through. Large stuff and small stuff, not true sand as in play sand. It is fun to shoot buckets though and something to do when bored. DANNY

Oh, don't misconstrue, I'm am in no way defending. I'd be rid of him in a NY minute if it were up to me. I'm just another of many here stuck with somebody else's allowed bad behavior.

I believe that in the test above, if one of his arrows had a complete pass-thru and the other arrow bounced off, some on here would claim that the test was flawed.

As far as Rynman goes, it is like the old saying about wrestling a pig. The only things that happen are that you get dirty and the pigs enjoys it. I try to ignore him on here most of the time, but sometimes...

RymanCat:

On this very site - Did you, or did you not encourage folks to just go out, and shoot animals to learn how to shoot?

I'll answer that for you - Yes, you did.

In addition to that, you claimed it did not matter if you wounded them, or worse killed & could not find, because it was all part of the learning process.

Of course, that was paraphrasing some, but it "IS" what you said.

You also continuously circle this forum like the buzzards circling your "lost game", in search of a topic to spew your vomit onto.

Go away. Seek help.

I pray you find it, and pray you find peace in your life, but you aren't going to find it here by being a complete & total ass.

I'm tired of your insanity.

Rick

Some people just love to 'poke the bear' . I say just ignore it.

+1 Rick

Amen Mr. Rick!!!!!!!

I saw a test similar done with a rifle and a bow, the bow out performed and penetrated further than the bullet.

Your stiring up trouble Rick so why are you pleading your point for favor from men? Be careful what you say we are what we call others now with 4 fingers pointing back to us. Don't you think we should grow up what are we 20 yo?

I guess it's obviously how it really burns you what I am saying and for you to go to this extreme, whats that you say your angry? Stand up and don't resort to childish games that are foolish in my opinion or how your acting childish.

If we are animal takers and I doubt that most talking really are you would know just what it takes and would not twist and turn things to your favor. We would not have to do bucket tests that have nothing to do with shooting or hunting for all this effort your all putting into all this fake news!

Besides what does it really matter to you that you are personally attacking me? The fact that you are so rubbed tells me who has need of peace. I'm ok with you acting out show us more about those that need to. LOL

I sure would say I have a lot of peace and have for a number of years with God where else can I go but to the Lord. I been through more than most and have been blessed with things to show from many blessings thanks to God not men!

If men bring us peace then let me pray for those so whats one more on the list. Lord knows all about all our struggles. Even uncontrolled anger!

With men there is no peace even though we are called to be at peace with all men you know its difficult especially when we don't agree. You want to fight with words shows just how big a man is now don't it.

Those who choose to go on the attack and dream up and point things out from your view putting words in my mouth that says something for a person that does things like this!

I found that they don't know who they are and are misguided for the most part. If you keep a record of wrongs who really needs the Lords peace and hope you find some since you need to resort to this type of attack to gain favor from men. LOL

I'd like to have sympathy on you but it's more sad that you have to go to the extreme to open a new narrative and then get others to go along with you and down the same drain.

Try and stand on your own and that goes for everyone that wants to get on the Cat bash. Sorry someone has to say it to you like this you aren't Gods.LOL

Well maybe with men you are. LOL

One suggestion to you is go to the wall and help out if you have the salt rather than playing with bucket tests.

Sorry you and others are so offended it shows who we really are demonized I guess if things like this could rattle you. LOL

Iron sharpens Iron! Don't be angry at me just look in mirror and decide if you hear me now?

I forgive you Rick for acting out on me. I want to give you an olive branch.

Looks like fun Conner, thank you for this thread.

As far as bullets, many are designed to expand, not deeply penetrate. Too complex to discuss various bullet designs and physics here.

I think the bullet and the arrow test was/ is mostly for showing off the power of the bow and arrow and nothing for the bullet . To me the perfect bullet would be just under the hide not passing through wasting energy.

RymanCat.

I'm simply pointing out your despicable behavior.

I, as well as many others have been the brunt of it on many occasions. We're tired of it.

I don't stir pots. I try to contribute in a constructive manner, and if I disagree with something I either pass on by without response, or state my disagreement in a respectful way. That, is not the case with you.

As I stated earlier, you circle this forum like a buzzard looking for things you can jump in/on, call people fools, and accuse them of stating "Fake New" only because "you" disagree with what they've said, or (and often) you simply just can't understand what they've said.

Here's another behavior I have witnessed from you on several occasions: You go off the rails with one of your rants of idiocy, realize you've got yourself into a pickle, so you then turn to talking something spiritual, or start fishing for sympathy in an effort to try to get you off the hook for it.

I've got news for you buddy. You are not the only sick person around. You are not the only person down & out on his luck. There's no excuse for letting/using those things to make other peoples lives miserable.

I am pretty thick skinned, and can tolerate a lot of guff. In all my years of being a part of this forum, I have never EVER felt the need to seriously call someone out over their behavior such as I have with you. I have defended myself at times, and even when things got heated I tried my best (failed a few times) to show some semblance of respect, and use only fact to do it. I even tried to give you the benefit of the doubt for a very LONG time. No more.

I don't need your forgiveness, because I have never (not once ever) wished any ill will toward you. I've only wished for you to get a handle on your maniacally bitter attitude, and to find some peace in your life. What's to forgive?

Rick

For every naysayers about getting a 450 and a 650 to fly good and tune the same. Here are two barwshafts at 20 yards. White nock is the 650, green nock is the 450. Those look pretty straight to me.

"Does that mean that the 650 grain arrow should have penetrated 12.5% more."

I think that's a legit critique. But, it can be hard to include every variable.

Couple things that I think could improve the test.

1. Field points. Try identical broadheads. 2. Show the FOC for both arrows. 3. Use a flat faced medium. A good choice might be as Rick described in his penetration topic. I don't think anyone ever followed through with those tests. (Rick, correct me if I'm wrong)

Picture is crooked, it’s supposed to be rotated 1/4 turn clockwise

RymanCat,

I wish to quote you. "Sorry you and others are so offended it shows who we are demonized I guess if things like this could rattle you." Think about what You are saying with this comment. Are you not rattled by a bucket of sand test and what it shows or doesn't show. Are you not describing yourself is this simple thread, with that comment? Seriously look at the anger you are displaying and how you are demonizing this innocent test. There was nothing of yours destroyed, in his effort to see what would happen when he shot His bucket of sand. I don't think anyone looks at his test as definitive. He just thought it was interesting in what he did and wanted to share it with others here. How many others have shown/shared similar stuff, it is one of the things that keeps this sight interesting. Hey I saw flaws with what he did and I have already mentioned it. "BUT" he had FUN doing it. ISN'T THAT what shooting bows is all about, having FUN. I'm sorry but if you answer anything other than "YES", then I do feel sorry for you, because you have lost perspective. Nice part is, Fun comes in many different forms in this sport. DANNY

Mike, yes a flat face to shoot at is more dependable for reading the difference in results between the arrows, and that insulation foam block works very well.

Yes knowing all of the specs of the arrow (including FOC) help to reveal all contributing factors.

Rick

The heavier arrow penetrated more in the bareshaft picture. The target is a burlap sack, stuffed with recycled shrink wrap. It stops arrows, but is very inconsistent with soft spots, and not a valid a test medium for penetration testing purposes. They are my favorite target, because they are super cheap, and the burlap sack is the same color as the side of an elk. I drive the roads along the industrial park below town and pick up all the recycle shrinkwrap, cleaning up the roads and getting a free target at the same time. Burlap sacks cost me $1.99 at the local feed store.

Thanks Conner and Rick and anyone who does the effort and work to show any archery test. It gives us something to ponder.

Clint, thanks, and that's really the whole point of it.

Which is, to give folks the incentive to get out there, and find out what works best for them.

I (and most others) try our best to give a reasonable & fair comparison between the different contributing factors before drawing our conclusions, but I'll be the first to admit - what works best for me may not necessarily be what works best for someone else.

You gotta find what works best for you, but you'll never truly know, unless you make the comparisons for yourself. These tests we do give folks avenues/ideas for doing just that.

Rick

X2 what Therifleman said “ Every set up will reach diminishing returns at some point as arrow weight increases. 650 grains is not way to heavy, but I wonder how a 550 grain arrow would do.

Shoe , I was wondering the same.

I can easily make up a 550 grain arrow, bareshaft test it, and shoot a fletched 550 at the bucket of sand. I think that would only open up another can of worms and create even more discord among the posts on this thread. It would have no increased performance, and it would only put more holes in my bucket.

The holes in your bucket might be worth it.

Then don't buck that horse, this is your deal and you are doing a good job at it despite all the unfortunate distraction. Sensible folks will take away from it what they will and use what they can.

I'm on shift tomorrow, that bucket will have to rest. It'll probably take a another hit or two on Thursday from some 550 grain arrows.

You a Firefighter?

Registered Nurse

The "on shift" sounded familiar, not may use that term, you'd be in that group.

I'd be curious to see the result, Conner.

David McLendon, I'm guessing you are in that group. I appreciate your service.

Thank you sir, my 10th year of retirement this year, and I highly recommend it.

I would like to see what a Compound or a Crossbow does with this test.

The denser the medium used is, the more drag and friction will work to stop the projectile.

A sharp broadhead would certainly part the density better than a Field point and be a more practical measure for a Bowhunter.

The one thing I do know and have been studying lately is the propensity some individuals have to be perfectionists.

They may be a complete slob and not care about certain things and yet the obsess about what interests them.

I actually do not see any problem with this test because it really did not cost a lot and only seems to be just an interesting thing some of us older retired guys might be doing while taking a break from tilling a garden.

I would actually task Rick to create a medium that reflects that of a mature Feral Hog and a scapula hit with a lubricity factor introduced within the bucket.

By the way, has anyone ever entertained 100 grains of arrow weight for every 10 pounds of draw weight theory? Lol, think about it, how soon did it come to you? lol

Conner, shoot the crap out of your bucket.

That's what Duct tape is for:)

LOL

The laundry detergent and dishwasher pellets we use come in rectangular plastic buckets from Sam's club. These would be a good alternative to shooting round buckets for penetration tests.

Gives you a flat face to shoot at and two thicknesses depending on which side you shoot at.

I say shoot whatever you want, buckets, barrels, stumps, critters, whatever you feel like that's got a safe backstop behind it and makes you smile. Good Day

Conner here's one NOT to try. I ve shot the drum, plywood and stuff but rescently picked up a mud flap by my house made of plastic. I put it up against a foam backstop and shot a 500 grain arrow with field points at it. They bounced back not sticking in. So I shot two of my broadheads in it getting about 1 1/2" of shaft to stick through The thing. Then I broke Both shafts trying to remove them. It's not much thicker than a plastic drum but some tuff stuff. They were carbon express out of a 48# longbow.

Curious did you cut the arrow with the 250 shorter or are both of them flying good at same length?

Momentum is the best way to take all the variables out to determine what has the potential to penetrate best. You can't cheat physics.

Shoot the heaviest drawing bow you can accurately and shoot the heaviest arrow you can accurately.

All of this kinda reminds me of a song "There's a hole in my bucket Dear Liza, Dear Liza. There's a hole in my bucket Dear Liza a hole."

Hey Sam/Sarge:

[[[ "I would actually task Rick to create a medium that reflects that of a mature Feral Hog and a scapula hit with a lubricity factor introduced within the bucket." ]]]

Workin in it.

It won't necessarily represent a feral hog, but will be close to that of a large tough animal.

What I am going to do is:

Place a 10" tube at center on one of my 30 gal plastic drums.

Then I am going to fill the area between the tube, and the drum with ballistic gel. Once the gel cures I'll then remove the tube.

I originally was thinking to use a 15" tube, but the gel is to represent muscle, and other heavy body tissue, and decided I wanted it to be thicker.

These drums I use are parallel walled with an 18.5" inside diameter, and a 18.75" outside diameter. 1/8" wall thickness. That wall thickness don't seem like much, but it is tough (very tough), and absolutely as tough as the living bone of a scapula, or ribs.

What that will produce is a hard yet flexible (similar to bone) initial contact to penetrate, then a 4.25" thickness of ballistic gel to penetrate after that, and that's just getting through one side. Double up that resistance to get through both sides.

The 10" dead air space at center is just to represent a lung area hit. Lungs don't present much resistance at all, but if I can come up with something similar to them I'll fill that 10" space with it.

The body fluid lubrication factor is something I haven't figured out for sure yet, but I definitely want to have that introduced into the test.

I'm think that, just using a well lubricated shaft & broadhead (with something like Slick50) will work. Got any ideas?

This will take time, and time isn't a readily available commodity for me these days, but soon I hope.

Rick

I'm planning to get with Conner and do some of this testing with him. I have some ideas on consistent medium and a flat surface to shoot. Plus between the two of us and our wide range of arrow weights and bow poundage's we should come up with some interesting data. Of course that is if Conner will let me come shoot at his place.. :) I'll even donate a few broadheads for the test.

Yup I did loose perspective I certainly did. Ok it was for fun and I took it to another level. Thanks for pointing that out that I didn't see.

I was looking at it through coke bottle lens I gather that.

I am sorry for being to hard on this as usual.

However last 2 cents when we have to quote anything are we that weak and don't have our own minds or words to have to resort to use others? Just asking now for fun.

Take it for what its worth just for fun now mind you. LOL

My fun is shooting game and catching fish and teaching others but I can't force a horse to water. And figuring things out how I am going to take the next one that I been studying.

You can put this on your bucket list but if you really want penetration then sharp broad heads and wax your arrows they will slide easier right through what your shooting at.

Wax your target arrows as well but you have to keep up on that it wears off fast after a few shots.

If you waxed your arrows in this bucket test you might get a little more penetration.

Just use kitty litter buckets.

Hey Glenn. Good post on your last post.

Good tip, RymanCat. I've been waxing my hunting arrows every fall for years--slicker and an added protection layer for moisture. Never done it on small game or target arrows. Too lazy I guess.

"Rick Slick 50"

Mabe a piece of carpet stuck to the outside of the plastic with slick 50 poured on it . Be like hide then blood as well.

I think someone needs to do penetration testing on thousands of animals and publish the results.

That should end all this testing using material that has no resemblance to a actual animal and defies the laws of physics.

It is... except I didn’t have a dead cow. I did do some testing on a pig shoulder, but I don’t have photos to back the evidence.

CW, are you referring to the Ashby studies?

Sorry but probably can't even get like minded brothers who arrowed hundreds of animals to agree to tests like this that they are ok other than fun for some. LOL

Guess that's a mad cow. LOL

Can I venture to ask what your wife, girlfriend or sister or mother might think about this type of bucket testing? Might think things are weird now. LOL

I bet they say get your chores done?

Oh fellows the men who chase goats. LOL

Not stiring pot just poking the Toms cause I like to hear the gobbles and see them try to strut these jakes. LOL

Conner, Ashby has some good information on arrow penetrating factors. Would like to see someone else take a similar approach and either validate or challenge his findings using real animals.

What is your motive for doing this testing Conner? It appeared from your original post that you shooting a bucket some how disproves that a 650 grain arrow would perform better then a 450 grain arrow on real animals.

That’s a good question. I’ve shot animals with 650 grain arrows and with 450 grain arrows. Both with excellent success, so I don’t question either arrow, because I have filled my freezer using both. I guess my main thought on this was that I don’t see any benefit to using a 650 grain arrow. Or in other words what would a 650 grain arrow do arrow that my 450 g won’t do? So I thought I would do a penetration test to show that both arrows penetrate equally. So my thoughts are that if the arrows penetrate equally then what gain with someone achieve by using a 650 grain arrow? A bucket is way more difficult to shoot through then a deer or an elk. That’s a fact because I’ve shot all three. I think Ashby’s studies claim that 650g is the min for bone breaking and increased penetration, then why don’t I see a different in testing, on real game and buckets?

RymanCat,

Love ya man. Never even thought about waxing arrows for hunting. I will tell a quick story about penetration. Most all of us know how 2 inch thick Ethafoam will stop an arrow with friction. Buddy of mine and I were shooting at a Zucchini laying against a virgin Ethafoam foam target. I was the first one to hit the zucchini with a 2117. That shaft got lubed going through the zucchini and it never slowed down going through that virgin Ethafoam. After seeing that, is where I came to the belief that the shaft is lubed going through the animal with blood, so shaft diameter doesn't really matter with the big hole the broadhead cuts ahead of it. The arrow spinning on it axis (or not) at impact, the density of the tissue it pushes the broadhead through, whether it is flexed (pushing laterally against the shaft as in a deer turning), relaxed, or solid makes more of a difference with penetration then anything else, with a fixed blade broadhead. I can see how waxing a shaft might improve penetration even more when prelubed. DANNY

450 grains is dry firing my bow. 10 ggp is fro 630-710 for my bows.

[[[ RymanCat: "If Tricky Rick was a little more knowledgeable on killing by the arrowing of game he should be steering you straighter rather than jumping Cat man! About fun tests! That's ok though I get him and all is good." ]]]

LOL - Then you woke up.

You probably need to get your drugs adjusted. They're making you have silly/stupid dreams. 8^)

You don't get me. You don't have the intellect for it.

Eh Hum - I don't buy my trophies. I kill & eat them.

I've lived in the country most of my life, and all of my married life.

When I wasn't working my ass off keeping a roof over our heads, and paying the bills, I hunted, fished, and trapped to feed my family.

They never went hungry, even though wild game was the staple of our diet, and a tremendous amount of the game we ate was killed with bow & arrow.

Somewhere during all that time I learned how to read, "AND" understand what I was reading. You should try it. It might open up a whole new world for you. 8^)

Rick

Keep the tests coming! Being inquisitive is a good way to be. Without it, we wouldn't have had all the miraculous innovations we have today (course, I view some of those innovations and inventions to be a curse).

I'm thinking that I would really like to see some photos of all these Ryman Cat mounts. I've read enough refences to them that I am really intrigued and would love to see the mounts of all these accomplishments. Please do take a turn around your place and favor all of us with some photos of your many successes. I'm sure that it would be great motivation for us all.

LOL - Meeeeeeee Toooooooo David.

Probably won't happen though. He was talking about selling them all some time back. If he did, I hope he turned a profit.

Rick

I'm still trying to figure out why a penetration test doesn't prove anything? If one arrow consistently penetrates better than another, doesn't that prove something? If both arrows consistently penetrate the same, doesn't that prove something?

One thing I DO know, is that animal heads on the wall don't prove anything.

[[[ Lowcountry: "I'm still trying to figure out why a penetration test doesn't prove anything? If one arrow consistently penetrates better than another, doesn't that prove something? If both arrows consistently penetrate the same, doesn't that prove something?" ]]]

Well put, and yes it does prove something. I don't need to go into it, because you get it.

Here's another thing to consider as well:

Lets say folks are paying attention to these, or some of these tests.

Bowhunter "A" is shooting an XX# (at his draw) bow with a XXX grain arrow, has XX% FOC, using X broadhead etc, etc, and getting an average of X inches of penetration into a layered foam block from XX yardage.

Bowhunter "B" is shooting the exact same setup with both bow, and arrow, has the same draw length as bowhunter "A", yet he is getting average penetrations of less than "A" into that same foam block.

Don't you think that might give folks in the "B" category something to think about with their setup?

"Why", is never an unreasonable question to ask. The answer/answers can lead to many positive things, but only "IF" you are open minded enough to ask it (especially of yourself). That applies to just about everything. 8^)

Rick

I’d like to see the trophy room too. As a matter of fact there are several leather wallers that constantly talk about killing this, or that- but NEVER provide a photo of any sort. These same three or four gentlemen are ALWAYS the first to jump in and give out hunting advice. I think the reason why we never see pictures of these fellows with an animal that they’ve killed with a traditional bow is the very same reason that we never see a unicorn. They simply do not exist.

Very interesting thread. A "bit" off-topic at times.

Good test Conner. I did a demonstration quite a few years ago as a member of a local archery club. Audience was comprised mostly of campers in a nearby state park. I can't attest to the veracity of this statement but assumed most, if not all, were ignorant of the capabilities of the bow and the archer.

We did some shooting exhibitions like aspirins off a golf tee and extinguishing candles. All done with bows of the very early compound era.

Another segment involved a penetration test: arrow vs bullet. We used one of the old rectangular metal five gallon oil cans filled with common sand. The bullet was out of an old lever-action 30-30. Bow was probably about 55lbs with an arrow fitted with a Bear razorhead. Results were eye-opening for the attendees.

The 30-30 did not penetrate the opposite side of the can while the arrow protruded about six inches.

As for the results of your test, it confirms my thinking that using a lighter arrow for speed and a flatter trajectory is desirable over the heavier arrow with a substantial loss of speed and a much more pronounced trajectory with the resultant same penetration.

Crazy. I love this thread. Funny how the person who started the thread requested it to be a DEBATE FREE discussion. Causes me to question a certain persons reading comprehension! Just saying.

Don't just wish.

https://youtu.be/wLAY15lB4I4

Ryman, you said - "You guys talk.LOL Show your animals? If you have any? Foolish time wasted I feel just like the green deal boys.

You guys are bucket killers? Like I said spend time scouting turkeys then set him up and shoot him."

You Da Man Ryman - show us yours!

Rudeness above is how you handle it.

For some it does just like differences of opinions.

Cat, you confuse me man. You talk about “ getting along” but you ALWAYS cast the first insult. Be productive, go take some pictures of all those animals you arrowed. Since you brought it up (again), we’d all like to see them, killer.

Thank god for Ryman cat. This could start to feel like work if people didn’t keep it fun. When sensitivity hits hunting forums I gets worried.

There you go Cat. Running hard to Jesus (or trying to make it look like you are), in an effort to cover the tracks of your despicable behavior.

Maybe you just don't realize how despicable you behave at times, and often. Too often. I doubt that though, because this is a pattern I have witnessed from you on several occasions.

There's zero repentance, if there's no effort to change. So far I've seen zero effort on your part, and honestly suspect you take delight in creating a commotion any where, and at any time you think you can get away with it.

I know what's in my heart. I'm a believer. I'm spiritual. I don't hate. BUT, I won't put up with BS for very long.

I'm not judging either.

I'm just trying to bring you to order, and I will definitely call you, or anyone else out for their bad behavior in a society/community/forum where I reside, when that bad behavior becomes a major distraction (all the time) for the good people trying to contribute in a positive manner, and doing their best to get along even in disagreement.

99.9% of the time, your disagreement is highly charged with insults, humiliations, and passive aggressive accusations mingled with totally off the wall insanity.

No, no one died, and left me in charge.

I'm not angry either. I'm simply disgusted, and fed up with it.

Rick

Amen

Amen X2.

Conner, I enjoyed your test. Thank you for putting it out there. Reading some of the posts, I see it was a brave thing to do. Your controls were consistent. Probably the best any of us can do without lab equipment and a government financed budget. I find your results valid and verify one factor in a very complex dynamic. It confirmed similar results in tests. It poses two more questions I've had for sometime. I'll get to them later. The Ashby tests are interesting and important. But, they are mainly terminal forensics involving flesh and bone. Flesh and bone are a fickle medium at best. Terminal forensics are one part of the puzzle. I'm interested in how to maximize the effectiveness (penetration) of an arrow cast from a given weight bow. We can argue kenetic energy vs momentum on paper (you know...math.) We can also say skinny penetrates better than larger diameter (weight and speed being equal.) Weight forward? Your results surprised me. I've always been a bigger hammer guy. You just tempered my attitude ( I won't confess this to my compound shooting friends.) So, I'll put two questions out there: What effect does spine and paradox have on penetration? I've also heard a narrow deep core limb loses less cast with heavier weight arrows than a wide narrow limb. What's your experience? I really appreciate the knowledge, experience and contributions to this sight (social drama excepted.) Thank you! Rick

penetration that is consistent enough to be "fact" rather than "theory" is pretty hard to achieve under field conditions.

There are just to many variables. Type of game...did it hit a rib...or pass between...was the animal moving...or standing still. Did you get a perfect clean release...or did you pluck it just a bit...in the excitement of the moment are you sure you hit anchor properly...were you 18' off the ground shooting down...or were you on the ground...perfectly broadside...or was it quartering just a little more than you thought... have your broadheads lost their edge just a bit from being in the quiver for 3/4 of the season,...or did you touch them up the morning of the hunt.

very rarely if ever is a shot on a game animal perfectly duplicated on the next game animal.

penetration is funny....an arrow will zip through deer like a knife through hot butter....and a wild turkey will put the same arrow to the test by stopping it from passing completely through.

And like you....I like to tinker.

Not all things are solved in a scientific laboratory, sometimes all you need is a rainy day, a little imagination,...and a little time to kill.

Ok then nail me upside down because I'm not worthy.

Ok I did some soul searching yesterday and I came down hard but Rick come on I'm not the lone ranger on this ether.

I should have been Christ like and I wasn't I was harsh.

I'm a sinner and get caught up in the flesh often.

Sorry for running with the devil on this.

What satin means for evil God means for good. So now there's the plus.

Repentance. Why would I not go with Jesus because he who is without sin cast the first stone.

TG I'm the only sinner here. LOL

Maybe not a little hard but impossible I say other than live testing but then just who is doing the testing someone who is experienced or someone who isn't? Ask yourself?

Guys with the experience of arrowing many animals usually know what they experienced on the animals they had been fortunate enough to collect.

No Cat, you aren't the only sinner here. I for one stumble & fall on a daily basis.

I would have never brought religion/spirituality into the controversy though. It wasn't needed.

All I was trying to do is get you to stop & think before you post, and when you do post do so without the insults.

Again, No I am not in charge here, but this has been a home away from home for many years for me.

I love the sharing we do here, I love the discussions we have here, and I even love the debates we have here, BUT I'd like to see it all done in a congenial manner where it is a positive, and rewarding experience for everyone (including you).

So, when I see the need - I call it out.

Rick

? ? ? My bucket's got hole in it ? ? ?

Lighten up guys it is all fun. >>>>-------> Ken

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