There's been some anti-coaching comments on here, so I thought I'd start a pro-coaching thread. I'm pretty sure I'm correct, because I see my response to the anti remain unanswered. Soooooo -

You have one hour to learn archery! What are you going to do?

Archer A chooses to get a coach.

Archer B decides to read a book and search the internet.

Archer C decides to try trial and error

Archer D well leave that open for a way I might not have thought of

For a half an hour Archer A is told the basics of good form and he then has a half hour to shoot and have the coach correct him his mistakes.

Archer B started reading his book and was about a ¼ done when the hour was up, so we're going to give him 3 more hours and another hour for searching the net. To make it fair we'll have Archer A practicing for 4 hours that Archer B is reading ¾ of the book and searching the internet.

Archer C starts shooting trial and error at an archer club he joined for the purpose of learning. He shoots a half an hour and Joe comes up to him and asks if he needs some help. Joe's a really nice guy and a pretty good shot. He gives C a hour of his time and to make it even, C gets to practice for 3.5 hours. By the way, Joe can't be a coach or C would be extremely lucky and actually be archer A, but a half hour behind.

Everyone knows who's going to win a contest between the four archers. I've been A, B, and C, but here on the LW you have archers who haven't tried A AND YET they tell others that they don't need to try A. I've been B and C and never was satisfied with my accuracy. In fact, I'll bet it took me 25 years without a coach to learn what back tension was. In frustration, I had put a clicker on my bow. Not a coach.

If you gave B and C a lifetime to try and catch A, they never would. I guess the real question is if Archer A can beat Archer B and C in an hour or in the 5 hours that I ended up blabing about, why wouldn't he beat them in a month, year, 5 years, 10 years...also???

This is a world of time/speed/hurry up. In archery that equates to I'm going to go to 3 under, string walk, fixed crawl...just so I can 'learn' faster. But the straightest line from beginner to accuracy is a coach.

I know I freely accepted this mission and as I have learned in the past that I will be caught by the 17.3 accuracy guys and the LW Admin will disavow any knowledge of proper form and after enough anti-coaching posts I will self-destruct.

And by the way, A is still practicing, B and C are still learning and maybe learning the wrong thing. I hope I don't have to say that the 3 or 4 archers are of identical abilities or that they are identical triplets.

Bowmania

Now that is a good example. A golf Pro told me, he much rather coach a newbie that had never held a club, than some one that had been hacking away for 5 years and thought he knew every thing. Also that in a month or two the guy with 2 months experience would be holding his own or best the 5 year hacker. That is bound to be true in many sports as well as archery. Oh yeah the reason,--- He has to get the hacker to unlearn all the bad habits before they can begin.>>-->Ken

B, C, and D have more fun.

Age of the archer ?

A or C depending on availability.

C, I'll take the bow out, pull it back and shoot. Start out close enough I can hit the target. When I start shooting pretty good I'll get on the leatherwall and stayed confused for the next decade from all the good advice.

"A or C depending on availability."

Bowmania, I said C not because I favor the "trial-error" learning, but because an experienced archer came in the picture and told him what he should do. In long run, the supervision of an experienced person is priceless in learning process. This subject is very well known and debated in other fields too. "Can I become a Black belt just based on books?" Theoretically you can, but in practice the books will not give all the information - most of the time the "foundation" is not explained.

Now, there is the D option: You have experience with weapons and you know what to look for on www and libraries. There are few things that are "transferable knowledge" - a very inteligent person can fill the blanks, but in the end he will try to get the validation of his thinking.

You forgot watching a you tube. Of course it might take more than hour because of getting sidetracked.

Actually 1 hour is not enough time to to drive to a coach.

There is no correct answer to this hypothetical question. Even with the 3 archers having identical ability and being identical triplets, everyone learns things differently and thank God or the world would be a pretty boring place.

To pick up on the golf analogy, I'm a terrible golfer but I don't care. On the rare occasions I golf I go to drink a few beers and have some laughs with friends. Sucking at it doesn't detract from my enjoyment nor do I think that being better would add to it. If I wanted to be better I would practice more or go see a coach or whatever worked for me.

I'm all for people enjoying what they do. If a guy is happy shooting 9" groups at 15 yards, great. If they aspire to shoot on the Olympic team, great. I could care less how they choose to reach their goals.

What has me scratching my head is why anyone would bash anyone for either wanting to use a coach or not wanting to use a coach or any other method they choose to achieve their goals.

I will say that a big part of the fun of archery for me is hitting what I'm shooting at. I have asked trusted friends who I know are good shots for advice and it has helped me. I would gladly seek the advice of a "coach" if I had an issue I couldn't resolve with my shooting. But then again, I have a lot more fun shooting my bow and hunting than I do golfing.

Choices aren't always as simple as A, B, C.

In 1958, I chose B because I didn't know there was any other choice.

I was 10 years old growing up on a farm. My parents had very little money.

So it was B. I went to the library and got a book...the Witchery of Archery.

I got to learn a lot and to see the world through books.

Jawge

So the assumption is also that Archer A's coach actually knows what he's talking about? I mean, are there any proficiency tests that coaches have to pass, or licenses that they need? I've seen plenty of crappy coaches in other sports in my day...but I'll assume, for the sake of this post, that the coach has been a successful bowhunter for years ;-)

Maybe I've got the wrong takeaway here but if a coach told me "You

have one hour to learn archery! What are you going to do?"

I would have put the bow down and forever walked away.

"This is a world of time/speed/hurry up."

Yes, if one so chooses.

i thankfully look at archery as being a life-long learning process.

I'm with I, and I mean that. His answer is closer to what I am thinking too. So I give an aye to i.

So my answer to this question would have to be:

Get a compound bow and with a release. LOL!

In an hour you'll probably be as good as a traditional archer that took years to accomplish.

There are lots of answers to the hypocritical question.Getting the right coach is very important.It usually takes all but the best some time to zero in on what needs to be emphasized.Anyway a good archer should be able to help a beginner on the essential steps.That being said!! there are plenty of coaches whose attitudes and techniques are either obviously or ultimately counterproductive.Yeah,maybe they shouldn't be coaches,but some people shouldn't be surgeons..Of course I and Mr Stout have hit the nail.

P.S.: Oh yeah, don't forget the sight!

X2 with i, Zildjian51, and George.

Starting from scratch, I suspect you would be better suited learning from a teacher or coach - assuming a quality teacher/coach.

However, I think we often forget that archery isn't really magic or rocket science. It can be learned by trial and error, but it will probably take a little bit longer.

I would think most folks would check the credentials of a coach. Like when you see some one that shoots good and asking their advice. Do You ask the one that spends all his time hunting lost arrows? I would also call a good archers advice "coaching" but maybe you want to keep it literal. In that case coaches that charge have various levels of coaching papers. Check them out. No one forces you to get coaching or to avoid coaches. Why all the arguments? In any case there is no reason to bad mouth the coaching profession. That seems to be what stared this. Then they leave. Oh well we all need something to do. Have a nice day---go shoot. >>>>-----> Ken

I am with "I" and Mr. Stout.The "life long" part is getting shorter all the time!(pun unintended).

Archer D buys a compound bow

Hmm. Seems in this hurry up, immediate gratification world we live in now, most folks would choose D -- i.e., buy a cross gun and be done with it.

Pretty hard to argue that a good coach wouldn't be helpful. There are several potential problems though. Finding a good one can be difficult. As noted above, there are a lot of self-professed experts on the internet. Cost may also be a factor. Most good coaches don't give away their time and expertise.

Sounds like a politian telling us there's only 1 hr to do or die when there is plenty of time to make the right decision.

Problem is too many coaches actually think their coaches.

Watch John Shultz video 'hitting them like HH- best 1hr spent.

2Bears, I kind of thought someone would choose Joe as a coach. So I say to you that Joe happens to be the guy that won the Lancaster Classic this year. Did you watch him? He shot off the tips of his fingers. C will probably never learn shooting off the tips of his fingers. (Just a point, he didn't have a very deep hook.)

It's kind of like trying to emulate HH. He was one of a kind. Maybe you can if you can string a 100 bow sitting down but if you can't get a coach.

So my next question to you Nay Coach Sayers, who do you think would be National Basketball Champions this year if VA didn't have a coach?

I'm saving the best for last, so if anyone wants to dig their hole deeper, have at it. After that I will self destruct.

Bowmania

What about all the other teams that didn't win with their coaches? I think you are comparing apples to oranges with that analogy Bowmania.

I honestly don't see anyone on this thread bashing anyone for using a coach. I see people questioning the legitimacy of some coaches and wondering about credentials and rightly so.

If you are trying to convince EVERYONE that using a coach is valid, which I personally think it is for some people, you are definitely on the path to "self destruct".

Actually there is always someone on the form thread making a dumb comment. I think it’s easy. I don’t care how anyone shoots. If they agree with a coach or not. But I personally don’t get on threads about guys shooting Hill style and make negative comments because I don’t shoot that way. I like the form threads. I think coaching helps that style of shooter. If you don’t move on.

I like the comparison with golf whoever said that. I struggled for years to constantly play in the 80’s. Got a coach and 2 months later. Bingo! A coach can see what you can’t and say put this here, put that there. Heard that somewhere before.

Buy a cool hat and say that if you are a good hunter you only need to shoot 5 yards :)

The restriction of an hour is just unreal.A few top notch coaches can analyse an awful lot in an hour.But aside from the basics and a few form flaws very few can evaluate a personality with the strengths and weaknesses that contribute to an archer within an hour.More relevantly is the coach so persuasive and convincing to get a new archer to change ingrained prejudices.How does he know that this archer will work diligently and fanatically to improve in the next year ,or pick up the bow once in a while and expect to shoot like Darrell or Rick? I've seen some coaches that should be avoided and some that are fabulous-well worth anything that they charge.BTW i concur with Bowmania on the importance of form.....How many Olympic golds has the US won since KSL took over?

I would choose A never having had a coach. That being said some of the best golfers in the world change coaches like some people change underwear. Also good shots dont always make good coaches as in good golfers dont always either.

There are numerous good examples here for coaching, yet the antis get dumb and dumber. No teams go without coaches. Yes one team has to lose. They don't give participation medals. Bowmania & Moebow are great coaches and have helped many here including me. Zetabow is one of the finest archers around. Casto and Jimmy Blackmon give freely of there time. They have helped out many. I am sure there are several others. If you can't find a coach you are not looking. The biggest problem with coach's--- Their students know too much to listen. It is impossible to teach a know it all anything. >>>----> Ken

"It is impossible to teach a know it all anything."

Yes it is.

C

i is spot on.

There's probably a coach in the city 250 miles from me- but I don't know for sure. I'll just have to keep muddling along killing things on my own:) JayInOz

I don't know Todd.

Teachers always told me I was slow. 8^)

The one hour thing kinda blows me out of the water.

I've had all the influences you mention, and I'm still learning after decades of doing it.

That said, having someone (((who knows what they are doing))), to show you the ropes sure can't hurt ya none.

Rick

Have one person try C for and hour, then have him or her try B for an hour, now that same person try A for an hour. Which one do you think he or she will benefit from the most.

The answer is to be eager to learn.

I believe the C (joe) is a good way to go for me doing my part B and not against A at all. Good question Todd .

Oh - It’s a trick question. None of them are archers! After only one hour, they are still PITAs . . . Persons Interested in Trying Archery.

Which could lead to a whole new topic . . . At what point does a PITA become an archer?

And at what point does a PITA think they know it all and become a real PITA :) JayInOz

I have helped a good many newcomers off to a good start in less than an hour. Some of them are doing pretty well in 15 minutes.

Something like 5 minutes on posture, 5 minutes on the positions, 5 minutes on the movements.

Do those things properly from the beginning.

No aiming; just point the arrow at the target from up close and make a strong shot.

Most women and girls learn easily. Some males you can't tell anything, unless they've been to boot camp. - lbg

Absolutely NO ONE could learn to shoot a Bow in one hour.

The Coach thing is based on Idealogic views and perceptions in Archery relative to the Goals of the archer as an individual.

Most Coaches who post anywhere on the Net already know they know what is right for everyone and that in itself is based on ideology and methods.

Bowmania, I am pretty well schooled in the methods you post over and over again here on the forum, and to what end?

As Blackmon pointed out several months ago,"Instinctive shooting definitions" drew his Ire towards me.

For instance, if you have watched Blackmon's videos he is basically plagiarizing from a Jenkins based system as he has indicated in his videos, "Rod Jenkins is my Coach" and elides to Arne Moe's videos.

In fairness to the ideological standard, does his Ideology or any other Coaches methods have to be the standard?

Now take for instance John Shulz, a Hill student, how do you think your Ideology would fit into that method of shooting a Bow?

My point and synopsis are this: Archery is a Goal oriented Ideology based on the premise of what the Archer may want to achieve and that may be predicated on who he/she wants to do with a Bow and arrow?

The "Anti-Coach" perception is not really the premise, but rather the Individuals Goals and how they want to achieve that measure.

I would offer you up a scenario if I may, that there is really no right or wrong way to shoot a Bow and Arrow unless there is an end goal based on the effort to hit something with an Arrow and that is endless in how the application is measured.

"So my next question to you Nay Coach Sayers, who do you think would be National Basketball Champions this year if VA didn't have a coach?" Quote

Todd, do you pay guides to show you where to go and kill game?

I never have, many never have and yes, On Public Land DIY I have killed game with Bow and Arrow and ate the meat.

You do not need a Guide to show you where the game is if you want to kill a deer.

Coaches get paid for what they organize and teach in any sport, the question is, how bad do you need one to Bowhunt deer?

Some may be really good shots with their Bows but go to the woods with a dull knife and Skin Bracer aftershave and spook everything in the woods.

I learned Woodsmanship by starting at 9 years old. There is absolutely nothing that trumps the practical experience of learning and applying it on your own.

You don’t know what a guide does do you? A guide doesn’t show you where the game is because you don’t know how to hunt. You use a guide because he lives, and scouts the area your are going to hunt year round. Not because you don’t know how to hunt. I think your opinions on these topics are based on zero experience. Never used a guide and never used a coach have you?

"You have one hour to learn archery."

I learned archery in less than one minute when I was 9 years old.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone gets bent out of shape based on how someone chooses to learn or do something.

Agreed- if a thread is about something like form or coaching and you don’t agree or your not interested move on.

Smoked, you hit the nail on the head for me at least.

Conversation and debate are healthy and can foster learning on both sides but unfortunately that's not what I see on a lot of threads. I guess the internet lends itself to people being a**holes towards each other with no real risk involved.

One of the first posts I made here on the LW was a picture and story of the first buck I killed with a "traditioanl" bow last year. I actually had guys PM me and try to demean my kill because I was hunting from a tree stand. I learned real quick that even in such a supposedly small, tight knit community there were still di*ks.

I don't like to argue in person and I sure as heck don't want to do it on the internet and my buck was still delicious.

Man oh man!!! ONE HOUR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ARCHERY, it was only a way to get things started and prove a point in most peoples minds, newbs in particular.

Guides have nothing to do with this thread. Sam, I see you've never hunted in Canada - the only time I've ever used a guide. Plus I'm wondering why you haven't answered my post on the 'Coach Pain' thread.

I don't go through this for guys set in their ways. The Monday From thread and threads like this are for the above mentioned newbs. I never expect to change the mind of a guy who knows more than KSL, Lee, McKinney, Henderson, etc. I probably learn more from these threads than anyone. Thickened my skin that's for sure. Plus I've learned not to respond with out an hour to cool down, LOL.

Back on point, I said I had one more point to bring up. It's about what coaches do, not just archery coaches. Coaches teach sports. You didn't have a Math Coach in school, you had a math, reading, history, etc TEACHER. Since coaches and teachers do the same thing and are defined by what they 'teach', if you think you don't need a coach for archery, you don't need a teacher for math, reading, or history etc. Give me a brake. Did you send your kids to school? If you did, you believe that Archer A is the way to go.

I will now self-destruct.

Bowmania (until Monday. I felt I better put that in there or I might here about it Monday)

Very good point Elderly. I guess the old saying, "Money is the root off all evil.", holds true everywhere.

I wish I had those training options ( A, B, C, D) available to me before I went on my honeymoon.

For that application, I utilized mostly "C" and will consider "D" as a viable option.

Yea and teachers get paid too. Does that mean your kids don’t learn anything because the teacher gets paid.

Bowmania, is this how you would like everyone to shoot?

Blackmon says no slumping etc.

I mean ideally, this is on level ground and in a lighted area and who taught him that this is right?

I mean, I can hear his arrow dragging across the rest enough to spook any Deer and assume this is basic form illustration so if you want to watch and implement this style of shooting in one hour carry on.

I will never hunt in Canada for two reasons, Money and they are anti-CCW. I go nowhere that I cannot have a pistol CCW, anywhere!

Option D: get a peep or kisser button and 1 pin.

Keep the sights lined up on target with your primary focus on the mark. Just let the pin float in front of the X, relax and settle into your anchor, taking a little time to notice what that feels like. Expand into your shot and release when the pin is squared up.

OK, so would anyone agree that Shulz is a Coach, was a coach or knew his style enough to teach it?

I show this to illustrate a point on Couching as a subjective measure to you anyone's desire and application to their end goals.

What are your goals?

This is another methodology and I concur, shoot what style of instruction best suits you and your goals whether paper targets or aerial targets and or learn all of them?

I really enjoyed watching this video.

Archery is Literally, as diverse as people!

It is ALL acceptable, Yes?

All methods are educational, Yes?

Conclusion: There is NO SET methodology of Instruction that is Universally accepted, right?

Shoot how you want, have fun with it, do not over analyze to the point that you become Panicked!

Shoot fluidly and naturally as it suits you, with whatever equipment you chose.

Many are overthinking it and making it more complicated than is necessary for enjoyment and success.

Sarge you are right. So if a thread comes up about form or coaching there is no need for you to post because your not interested. Oh or target panic because you obviously have no clue about that.

Why ? So we get one thought on the topic ? Good plan for a discussion forum.

Smoker, does that mean you banned me from topics?

"Clue" What is your experience of Coaching and form? Do you need a Coach?

Type on, become the Laptop! very funny.

There is a big difference between talking about something your interested in than telling someone they shouldn’t do something because I don’t.

Note where I said that?

I submit to you that you just made my point! Thank you, you just made my day.

I'd call Aspirinbuster and have him teach me.

I have been shooting a bow since 1957 and learned on my own, as there were few if any coaches around. I became a pretty good shot and won my share of trophies, altho there was always something missing, as I knew I could even shoot better if I "cleaned up" some form issues. About a year ago I met with Bowmania, as we are both from Wisconsin but 250 miles apart. He gave me some pointers and things to work on with the blank bale. Bommania is an experienced certified coach with some good teaching tools.

I have been following his teaching threads on the Sequence very closely which have been very helpful. I shoot better now than I ever have and am 2 months short of being 84. My theory has always been "you're never too old to learn something new." My advice to someone just starting in Trad. archery---GET A COACH! Joel

Bowmania is a coach ? Hmmm

Hiring a coach is properly a good idea if you feel one can improve your shooting, or your just starting. Personally I'd want one that has a few state and/or national championships under his belt.

As I pretty much do this for a living and have several 1000's people though our place every year. We run an Archery center for private and corporate events, anywhere from 10 to 100 people shooting at any one time. we start off with an hours instruction and then take them around a short 3D course (max 20y).

I would say 50% are naturally talented and pick it up very easily, 30% not so good but with a few weeks training would become quite profecient and 20% have poor coordination and really struggle the grasp the basics, if they have the determination thay can also become quite proficient after a few months and seen it happen a few times.

That 30% catagory tend to become pretty good if they take up the sport, they probably have the right combination of talent and determination to stick with the highs and lows of shoting.

Hope you are doing better Morley with the health issue. Go easy,

Take $1500 cash, put it on pavement, douse it with gasoline, light a match...

Remember a close friend and minister in Stillwater, OK, five years ago at dinner telling me how much his family enjoyed shooting at some paper plates on his property during a Thanksgiving holiday. His wife had an old 30lb recurve and they said everytime one of the family members hit a paper plate stpled to a bale they got so excited. Evedently, didn't take long for a few of his familhy members to hit a paper plate up close.

A few years ago, my grown daughter wanted to learn to shoot. Had just bought me a 30lb bow (a nice 2013 Kodiak 59'er), and we shot for 'bout an hour. An hour flys by so there ain't too much to teach or worry about. Can't remember too much, but seemed like relaxing that bow hand and getting back to anchor were the learning items. Probably talked aobut other things too besides just shooting. Do recall how thrilled she was to hit a paper plate up real close.

Think the first hour, just getting someone's hands on a bow, pulling it back to anchor so that the person learns there is a repeatable sequence, is about what there is to learn. However, those two shooting basics aremn't even really important. What is important the first hour is to have fun.....period! That minister in OK had it right.

I first shot a compujd and had some great coaching. I shot well above average. I started shooting trad and I read all the books and talked to a lot of local archers. I shot ok. Good enough to hunt deer at 15 yards or so. I shot a bunch of critters but was frustrated with reall consistency, I couldn’t figure out how I could have such swings in good days and bad days. It just didn’t happen like that with the compound. I decided to go back to my compound form like I was taught, upright, holding at anchor and full expansion. At the same time I took a clinic with Rod Jenkins, which confirmed I was on the right track. My shooting improved drastically and almost immediately. Over the last year I’ve worked with coaches to specifically dial in my form and mental game. The consistency and control is amazing. It’s also putting much less stress on muscles and joints. I’ve had folks tell me that doesn’t transfer to hunting but that’s not true. I’m still hammering deer from tree stand and off the ground. Knocking pheasants from the air, moving pigsvabd deer, rabbits, squirrels a bobcat. Everything I’m shooting at. My accuracy and confidence is st all all time high and I’m confident shooting at longer distances. Not everyone needs a coach, but everyone could improve with one and I’d always try to steer a new archer in that direction before bad habits were picked up. I watched a brand new trad archer last month develope amazing form and consistency in just 3 days with a coach. Day 1 he looked like a fish out of water holding a bow and by day 3 he looked like a pro.

I tried to help a guy a few years ago that had been trying traditional. He would miss a deer and pick his compound back up. I shot with him one day and he was releasing with a big sideways pluck and his cheek was red. I tried in a nice way to explain the importance of a full draw. He had developed bad habits and started with to heavy a bow. But he was and is still a know it all. He lectured me on how he was a snap shooter....okay good luck

The thing that gets lost in all these posts that Todd does is the fact that essentially, at the grass roosts level, what he is doing is promoting a consistent, repeatable shot sequence grounded in a few common basics.

Consistent alignmnet, consisten anchor/draw length, and clean in line release. It doesn't make a reat's butt worth of difference whether you are a "Hill" style, Cardinale, Native American, Eastern thumbring, or "grip and rip" devotee, if you aren't conistently executing certain basics, you aren't going to hit squat consistently

Can a coach help you to identify the flaws in your sequence and suggext how to correct the execution? Absolutely they can if they understand the style of shooting you are wanting to do and there is more than one. Is it REQUIRED for everyone? Of course not. Can it flatten out the learning curve? Most likely. To think otherwise is a little silly.

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