Sitting here repairing stumping arrows, rocking to the hair bands station, I had a thought.

Most of the damage to a stumping or roving arrow is deceleration trauma to the arrow on impact. Arrows are intended to stick into a target, not smack it.

Judo points are the roving archers friend. The spring arms keep the arrow from burrowing under grass or pine duff, also from sliding thirty yards along the ground.

However, judos come with a flat ‘point’. When the arrow strikes an extremely hard stump (shy do stumps from felled trees turn to stone, while stumps from naturally fallen trees rot into soft, wonderful targets?) or worse yet, a rock that is masquerading as a stump, the arrows slams to a stop instantly.

As seen in any crash test dummy commercial, this releases extreme forces on the arrow.

I’m aware that using a judo for stumping is a misapplication of a head designed for harvesting small game.

Having said all that, has anyone tried grinding a point onto a stock judo? Would that allow a more gentle decel Upon impact?

I know there arm judo spring arms that can be installed on regular points. Would that have a more gentle effect? Thoughts?

"I’m aware that using a judo for stumping is a misapplication of a head designed for harvesting small game. " that mist be a new thing 'cause folks been using Zwickey Judo points for stumping and roving for over 40 years that I know of for sure. In fact that's why Jack invented it.

One of the prototypes actually had a point. Read the stotry at the link below.

http://www.zwickeyarcheryinc.com/historyofthejudo.jsp

So you think you can improve on Jack Zwickey's design?

There's a reason. Just saying!!!

Bowmania

Hey DaGunz, they make (or used to make) these things called (I think they are called) grasshoppers that screw in behind a field point and turn your arrow into a pointed judo. They are kind of like a washer with spring arms on the sides. They work great, but are kind of expensive, and not as durable as the Judos.

Without curiosity and the desire to improve, the recurve would never never been invented.

I’m just asking a question.

They were Muzzy Grasshoppers. Looks like they are no longer sold as they were. Now they are part of of a small game head package.

A pointed tip would stick more than a standard Judo. If you notice the springs also limit penetration in a tree/stump. Usually resulting in a bounce back or fallout situation. Although on some thick barked oaks they will stick but barely.

Yes, I have pointed the bulb on the judo point but not for the reason you mention. The bulb when it sticks in a green tree limb or trunk will stick pretty firmly so I have pointed them to make them easier to remove. If a judo is stuck up in a tree with a pointed tip, it come out more easily. I have heard that on the zudo patent it is stated the bulb is to make the point stick in trees to make it easier to find. Ready for everyone to disagree. :)

Not looking for argument, but I’ve stuck Judos pretty deep in a stump. Sometimes they go through the rotten outer wood and stick hard into the inner core.

Digging an arrow out of a stump is a common occurrence for us all, I’m sure.

The grasshoppers are what I was thinking of. Maybe that’s where I got the small game notion.

I’ve read the packaging story about seeking a solution to lost arrows and seen the video where they cut down a tree.

Not saying they’re not great, just wondering if a point would help.

I doubt a point would help

but a little filework on one then you would know for sure

I'm a major stumper and have tried about everything , and have found a douglas fir shaft with a glue on Judo is the most hassel free for me

This is from this weekend

Hey Andyman, I agree, I’ve been searching for the ideal roving arrow also. I was confident that Ron’s armored bamboo shaft was the apex of roving arrows, but I’ve been breaking them A LOT lately.

They seem to work really well...till they don’t. My son had one fail on release a few weeks ago, and I’ve found they don’t take side impacts well. The aluminum footing on the bamboo shaft is the bomb on a frontal impact. I’ve accidentally driven a SARA (special armored roving arrow) into an ironwood tree with no ill effects.

That being said, Anthony bought us some hickory shafts to try out.

looks like one of those I've got your arrow stumps Ha Ha

It didn’t want to let go.

We generally agree that a sharp broaadhead penetrates better than a dull one, seems to me that a sharp conical point would penetrate more than one with a flat front end.

For bullets the term is 'meplat', and the wider, flatter bullets are supposed to hit harder. Those tend to be large caliber bullets and hevay enough so they have momentum to overcome the added resistance. (Think big magnums, 44 and up.)

If I wanted to -reduce- penetration with judos I'd look for the lightest shafts that would shoot well, and use a sleeve/footing to reinforce it behind the head.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/The+Effects+Of+The+Meplat+On+Terminal+Ballistics.html

I do a lot of roving but I will not shoot at a stump unless I KNOW it's rotten. My Judos last a L O N G time. Shadows, weed heads, grass clumps and leaves provide plenty of random targets.

I have learnt through experience that "stump" shooting is a quick way to damage arrows & seldom bother anymore. ....but I did try several different kinds of points on both wood/boo & carbon shaft (never bothered with alloys as they just bent or snapped) including some of those Chinese ones with points - seemed a good idea at the time, but i did have the occasional issue: - the arms bent, snapped or started to come off the body; - the point snapped off.

I've setled on Douglas fir shafts with hex blunts from ACE , judos and plan ol glue on blunts and shoot anything that catches my eye

really don't have much problens- tend to loose more than I break and losses are rare if the Dog is along

my main thing is roving and I do probably a non healthy amount of it with the dog

I stopped shooting at stumps long ago. Now I only shoot at clumps of grass, clumps of dirt (I hope), leaves, flower blossoms, woodchucks, chipmunks etc. I really dislike digging arrows out of stumps. My Bro-In-Law has left a couple of broadheads in trees from when he missed shots at deer. I refused to dig them out. Price you pay for being a bowhunter.

Instead of changing points, I went with a lighter bow. I've been using an old 40# Root bow for roving thinking that the 40# bow is a lot easier on arrows than a 55# hunting rig. Sure the arrow trajectory is different between the bows, but for me, roving is a test of shooting form and range estimation.

I was out yesterday, did some string walking and had a great time. I also found the arrow that I lost the day before. Happy Shooting.

I don’t know about the Muzzys, but I tried a lot of Judo knock-offs and they all suck. The quality of the steel in the springs makes all the difference in the world, so I gave up and have just stuck with the originals since.

Most durable roving arrow I ever had was a cedar 6-fletch Flu-Flu with the feathers cut down to about 1” high and a glue-on Judo (Gludo??) I finally sent that one square into a flat-faced hunk o’ granite and the shaft bounced out of the point, undamaged... but I have no idea where the point ended up! Heat-shrink tubing overlapping both point & shaft probably would’ve helped on that one.

I think if I had a quiver with a file pocket on it, I’d just swap out the file for a 1-2” or 3/4” chisel.

".....but I tried a lot of Judo knock-offs and they all suck."

Me too, and that's "suck" with a CAPITAL "S"!!!

There's only ONE Judo point, the Zwickey, period.

I feel sooo sorry for you guys that shoot over 45# bows or compound shooters too for that matter!...I shoot from 35 to 45# bows for hunting, stumping, anything. I've had the same 11 arrows for years and I do ALOT of stump shooting!Judo points? Rubber blunts? Metal blunts? Pshhhh...I have them but feild tips work just fine for small game,stumps!...Its a great feeling when you can just go out and shoot freely and not stress over breaking or losing arrows!

I never shoot stumps. My stump shooting here is at ground squirrels we call gophers. And I use Small Game Thumpers for them. Losing, bending or breaking arrows is just a cost of being a better bow hunter.

DDave

Losing arrows? That's whole point (no pun intended) of using Judos! I've lost ONE Judo point in the last 5 years, and it was because I shot it in heavy woods and it struck some branches while in flight and went ballistic. They also save a tremendous amount of time because the don't bury so you don't have to spend a half hour looking for an arrow that you KNOW is "right there". I shoot field tips at bales/bags only. My time is too short as it is.

So what do you think happen to a pointy point when it hits a rock it flattens. Lord knows I have enough field points that have hit rocks to show that and if the arrow is going to bend or break that is what it is going to do if you hit that kind of target no matter what point is used. The flatter point is a broader surface area to absorb and distribute impact. But hey it is up to you if you want to keep sharpening them. They were also designed with the flat point so they wouldn't penetrate wood that deep so they were easier to pull out if memory serves me right, and not have to cut them out with a knife as often. I have used them out of 60# plus recurves with out issue for years. I actually prefer blunts with the Muzzy Grasshoppers behind them when stumping because of that. DANNY

I guess a bunch of guys out there are better archers and or shooters and or rovers than I am.

I just put out a request for information about an idea that might work better. Maybe I’ve bern doing it wrong the last decade or so, but to me roving and stump shooting is about being outside, in the wind, in the woods, usually with about a #50 recurve, trying new new gear, seeing new territory and taking shots I couldn’t or wouldn’t on the range.

I can’t imagine shooting the same arrows over and over and over for years. For me, the idea behind a rove is to shoot uphill, downhill, with the wind, into the wind, across the wind, across a gully, across a creek, at a target that I haven’t previously examined. Yes, quite often a rotten looking stump turns out to be essentially petrified. Yes, I’ve taken a shot at a soft mud bank with a brand new arrow only to find it liberally paved with stone. Yes, I’ve blasted a sapling from six feet because I was fixated on the log or stump or root ball twenty yards away. Yes, I’ve shot what I thought was a safe easy rootball only to have the arrow embedded in a tap root or worse yet hit a stone buried in the root ball. All these risks add to the experience, for me at least, because if you do t take a challenging shot, you’ll never improve or extend your confidence. Sacrificing an arrow is part of the challenge.

I’ve experimented with points as well, although I’ve not tried the .38 casing or wing nit inventions that some on the wall have mentioned. I’ve trief rubber blunts also, only to find the deceleration trauma of a blunt is more ruinous than a judo.

I’ve tried different shafts. Aluminum is awesome, till you drive it into a sapling at six feet.

As most of you know, I’ve tried bamboo with aluminum footing, which greatly increases the shaft survivability. I’ve never had one fail on a sapling that jumps into the path of the loosed arrow.

But they seem to have a limited service life. My fire pit had several bamboo shafts that have reached the end of service, some of them rather quickly. This was a healthy shaft, I thought, that I shot st a log two weekends ago.

The log was harder than I thought.

Carbon seems like that absolute best for stumping, from what I’ve seen on the wall, but routinely running the risk of losing an arrow makes carbon not an economical choice, for me anyway.

My son ordered some hickory shafting that we’re going to try.

Judos are the best option, but they’re not indestructible. I’ve worn out the spring arms and flattened judos as I’m sure most of you have.

All this to say that putting a point on will probably not help, but I think I’ll give it a shot soon once I’ve ordered more and had time to put a point on. Maybe they won’t work well with weight missing but what am I going to do, ruin an arrow?

I have always used aluminum! Again, 35 to 45# bows...Feild points...Had the same 11 arrows for a few years now!(unless I broke one by putting it through a deer or small game and bought replacements)...

Want to improve on your ground reading, over all tracking skills? Get your self a 60# or above bow and arrows with feild tips and go out stump shooting with the rule being "ALL lost arrows must be found before you can shoot again!"! You'll get plenty of dirt time and on your hands and knees trying to find them! Finding lost arrows is a skill and you can get VERY good at it with enough practice! lol....Also helps to learn what NOT to shoot at!

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