Well fellas I'm running into a problem tuning some new arrows to my 52# stalker coyote recurve. I shoot 3 under and I draw exactly 27" and I'm shooting goldtip traditional 55/75 cut to 30.25 inches three 4" parabolics, GT nocks 12 grain aluminum inserts and 200 grain field points. My bow is cut 1/8 past center but with the rest it's almost perfectly center. My arrows bare shaft a little weak and a hair nock high. According to 3rivers spine calculator it also says my arrows are a hair weak so I think I'm shooting well. My problem is no matter how I turn my fletchings the I'm getting a little fletching contact. If the cock feather is in the it's the one that contacts but if it's out the lower right feather contacts. I probably would have never noticed it but before I adjusted my nock point up I broke two nocks from them hitting the front of the shelf. After moving my nock point up to around 5/8 i no longer get any contact from the shaft or nock hitting but after putting lipstick on my feathers it revealed light fletching contact. I've even slow motion video recorded and the shaft is clearing but shows the fletching still hitting. 1. How anal should I be about the feather contact? 2. I'm still showing slightly weak and would like to stiffen up a little to achieve a perfect tune. By stiffening up I would think I'd increase that fletching contact?

Any help would be great!

Here are some things to check. First sight down your arrow when it's nocked on the bow held vertically. The point of the arrow should fall outside (to the left of) the string. If not, might want to build out your side plate a bit.

Nock point seems OK. Might your brace height have come down for some reason? A brace height that's too low can cause the arrow to slap off the riser.

If your arrows are showing weak, stiffening them up a bit might give you the clearance you need. Spine not only determine how much an arrow flexes, but also when it flexes in the power curve. Worth a try, Might just try a lighter point first before you start cutting.

Jd -

Whatever results your getting, the arrows are acting too STIFF.

If I were to accept what you posted, I would build out the center shot and go to a weaker arrow.

But, tuning of the net is guesswork at best.

Viper out.

I think you’re getting a false reading. Is the bow 52@ your draw or 52@28? In my opinion 400s would be too stiff. I shoot the same arrow at 30 inches with 200 up front from bows that are 58@29.

MP

My bow is 52# at 28" and I draw 27 so probably more like 49-50. But like I said the slow motion video doesn't show any shaft contact. I want to stay heavy because this is my elk rig. By using lipstick and spraying foot powder I know my arrow is clearing but just a little fletching contact and I consistently get the same bareshaft angle and can shoot pretty dang close to fletched at twenty. And I'm close according to the spine calculator. Do you guys still think I'm weak? Withing 4 lbs on the spine calculator showing weak

My brace height is at the lowest recommended setting of 7 1/4

My brace height is at the lowest recommended setting of 7 1/4

You're not weak on the spine, you're stiff on the spine. But if you don't want to change anything, then shoot a lower profile feather. If you think you're weak, change point weight, it's that simple. 25 grains lighter will show you.

I'll give it a shot! Increase my brace height should help weaken it as well correct?

Buglmin makes some good points. I would say, based on your draw length and bow specs that you'll find 500s more tunable. I. Many cases, fletching contact points to a stiff arrow. To test throw another 50 or 100 grains up front and see if it goes away.

That said, fletching contact can occur on a well tuned arrow if the fletching profile is a bit high and the outside of the shelf sits pretty far out.

The nice thing about your bow is that the way the riser is cut you have a lot of room to build out the sideplate and experiment with arrows that are a bit lighter spined.

On one of Wolfie Hughes' videos he shows a modification made to a bear paw bow where the outside of the shelf was cut down. I believe this was to eliminate feather contact.

I also think stiff. Try increasing the point weight. If it is weak lower the point weight. Go up or down 100 grains so you will be sure to see the difference. Then you can sneak up on perfection. good luck. >>>>-----. ken

I don't think your arrows are stiff.

If you don't want to change the arrows up any to stiffen them up, then build your strike plate out to where it is about 3/16" outside center, and that should get you real close to where it needs to be.

That's not a super wide shelf on that bow, but it's not narrow either.

If moving the center shot out don't fix the contact issue, then put about a 3/8" hump on the shelf at the pivot point, but maintain that center position when you do.

Also - you might try shooting cock fletch "IN". Makes a big difference, and in my opinion is way better than "out".

Rick

I'm with Ken. I think your too stiff also. For what it's worth I shoot .600 spine out of bows with the same specs, l also draw 27".

I entered all your specs into the calculator, and made the bump to +3/16 on the strike plate position.

This is the match up. Pretty close.

Link to calculator:

http://www.taylortel.net/~rickbarb/dynamic_spine_calculator.html

Rick

Brace height us to low.

Rick he has done tried cock feather in with the same results.Going up or down with point weight is the easiest way to tell quickly. then adjust what ever is needed in the direction it is needed. >>>>-----> Ken

I know Ken, but he said he doesn't really want to change the arrows up any.

That only leaves strike plate position for the big change, and brace height for the minor tweaking of it.

Rick

You are right Rick. I was just suggesting an easy test to see what he needed to do for the permanent fix. >>>-----> Ken

Masking tape as a temporary, and easy way to thicken, or thin the strike plate to see where it needs to be. Once you find the thickness it needs to be, then do something more permanent than the tape.

Rick

I wouldn't mind adding more point weight so I'll probably try that first. Hopefully I can find out quickly. I really appreciate all the help. Will someone remind me again how the strike plate affects arrow spine as far as stiffening or weakening?

If you move it out, it makes the arrow act stiffer.

J -

BTW, a low BH stiffens the dynamic spine, not weakens it. So, you're starting with an arrow that's too stiff and making it worse with a low brace height. You want the TALLEST brace height possible.

Ditto on moving the center shot out (with the same arrows), it makes things worse. That's why I said center shot OUT and WEAKER arrows.

You can play with calculators all you want, but a burned lower hen feathers has only one reason. If switching to cock feather in helps, you're not getting enough paradox - get the connection?

Viper out.

Yup makes total sense thanks everyone for the help. I'm going to try a 50 grain insert instead of the 12 grain then if need be increase brace height. Hopefully I can get these arrows to work

Well here's some info for yall. I'm really discouraged lol Just for kicks I checked all nock arrows for nock fit and it was a little tight but not bad. I increased my brace height from 7 1/4 to 7 1/2. Still have contact. I added 75 insert weights giving me a total of 287 grains of point weight compared to the 212 I had before. Still have fletching contact. On top of all that my bareshafts are showing weaker and weaker as I made these changes!

See post above ^^^ oh and just for informations sake I took a bareshaft black eagle vintage 500s cut to 32" with a standard insert and 175 grain field point and they give me an extremely weak reading at 10 yards and on top of that I shot the same arrow with fletchings and lipstick and I am still showing fletching contact even with an arrow I know is super weak

Okay so today I kept my point weight at 200 grains but raised my brace height to 7 1/2. I had my wife video me from a bunch of angles in slow motion. The frames per second isnt quite fast enough but some of the frames you can see the arrow perfectly flex so the center of the shaft is clear. I'm still getting a tiny bit of fletching contact. I shot a group with 2 bare shadts and three fletched at 15 and had a golf ball size group. When I move back to 25 the bareshafts impact 8 inches right of the fletched. It looks like in some of the videos that maybe the arrow isn't stiff enough to invert the initial flex to move the nock end away from the riser before the lower hen makes contact. Could my arrows possibly be to weak? I know everyone thought too stiff initially but every weaker variation of arrows I've tried some even weaker in bareshaft tuning. Btw my bareshafts are on the same vertical plane as my fletched for the most part but are consistently nock high

bare should be a tad weaker than fletched.

If you were breaking nocks from hitting the front of the shelf that's a dead indicator that your arrows are stiff. I can honestly say that I have never had that happen, or even seen it in over 40 years. But, for the back of the arrow to hit the front of the shelf the point of the arrow (if you are right handed) has to be pointed to the left. If it were pointed to the right (indicating weak spine) the nock end would clear the riser/shelf.

The group that you are shooting, where is it located relative to a vertical ine on the target? The bareshft could indeed be weaker than the fletched arrows and the spine still be wrong.

You want to tune the arrows to the bow or the bow to the arrows. Not the arrows to each other. You can shoot a really tight group with bare and fletched shafts that are wildly over or underspined. The group just won't be where it should be.

J -

What's your center shot OR holding the bow as you do when shooting (but not drawn), align your eye so the string exactly bisects the upper or lower limb. Where is the tip of the arrow in relation to the sting?

If you are right handed and the tip is to the left of the string, then something in your form is making the arrows "look" weak, and we can't tell that from here.

Viper out.

When holding the bow the arrow point is to the left of the string. Also if anything all my arrows group a little to the right.

There is absolutely no way even the 500 spine with 200 point weight is weak. Something in the way that you are shooting the bow is giving you this issue. Torque, collapse or pluck no way to know just talking about it. Could be as simple as how your holding the bow.

He’s not shooting 500s. The 5575 is a 400. It’s way too stiff. Start over the same length with same 200 up front and go from there.

That 5575 (.400) has a static spine of approximately 78 - 79 pounds.

(1) He's shooting them at roughly 50# of draw weight, from a relatively high energy recurve, with a draw weight to static spine ratio of 50:78-79. That's + 28-29 pounds to the shaft.

(2) The arrows are (over 3 inches longer than his draw length) <<<< Important consideration.

(3) Counting the insert, he has 211 grains of load up front.

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I am shooting .300's with a static spine of 105#

(1) I'm shooting them from a relatively high energy recurve that is 69.5# at my 29.5" draw, with a draw weight to static spine ratio of 69.5:105. That's + 35.5 pounds to the shaft.

(2) My draw weight to arrow spine (ratio wise) is (7 pounds stiffer) than he is on the shaft.

(2) The arrows are 30.25" to the back of point, and have 240 grains (counting the outsert) of load up front.

(3) I'm also shooting near 40 grains of tail load (vanes/wrap combo), and that's not counting the nock weight. All of which increase the spine (dynamically) of the arrow.

(4) I don't have as much extra length (extra flexing leverage) up front as he does, yet my arrows still shoot slightly weak. I guarantee it.

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You have to take everything into consideration.

That extra length he has on his arrows combined with the front load he has are lending a lot (A Lot) of leverage to the flexing of the shaft.

His arrows aren't to stiff. I guarantee that too.

Rick

Well then... I disagree but that's just my opinion. Maybe I'm the one that has a strang form. Or maybe my form is just different than you guys. My broadheads hit with my field points and I couldn't ask for a better tear through paper. I know that yours do as well... Could it simply be a difference in how the arrow is loosed?

Bryan,

The thing is - I'm not going to go there on his, or anyone else's form, or tuning abilities, unless I am there to witness them.

There are just to many contributing factors in one's form, that have an effect on tuning, which make it impossible to know, and make adjustments for them, unless you are there in person to evaluate them for yourself.

Case being as it is, I assume he is good to go in his ability, and figure on everything from zero at that point.

Figuring everything from zero, then calculating with the add ons (the only contributing factors I have to work with), then comparing those results to my own personal experience, I conclude his arrows to be on the weak side.

I'd bet just about anything, that (if I were there), I could have those arrows shooting from his bow (without changing them),

do so by making all tuning adjustment at the bow/bow string,

have them shooting real good (with total fletching clearance),

and do it in a relatively short time (without) having to do anything outrageous to that tuning.

Rick

That should have read 215 on my front load. Not 240.

Had 40 on my mind, because that's what the outserts weigh.

Rick

I don't doubt you, I'm sure that you have done just that many times. I don't just automatically go to a different arrow spine without tweaking my system. I have a very similar draw length to the OP and would use that exact arrow he has out of a 60 to 65 pound bows. Do you think that the difference between a static vs a dynamic release could be causing the difference between our arrow spine/reaction results?

[[[ "Do you think that the difference between a static vs a dynamic release could be causing the difference between our arrow spine/reaction?" ]]]

Possibly, and if it's a good dynamic release most likely. I've seen a dynamic release add as much as 10 fps to arrow speed through the chrony. Then again, I've seen a sloppy dynamic release decrease arrow speed.

Get's me back to what I said about having to figure everything from zero when you aren't there to see those other factors.

After that is when the difference in personal form & abilities start to change things.

Rick

Really interesting analysis Rick! You have obviously spent a great deal of time and energy on arrow testing and are always generous in sharing your findings. I never would have thought of the front load with so much shaft sticking out past, but it makes perfect sense. Good reminder that things aren't always as they appear at first glance.

Rick -

Your analysis is correct, but he's still getting early wear/burn on his lower hen feather - that means stiff. Kinda throws the analysis out the window.

As I explained to him, the first step is to use a standard arrow (length and head weight), see what happens and go from there.

Viper out.

Thanks for all the help and advice guys. I've never had this much issue tuning my arrows. I'm waiting on a few 600 shafts from a buddy but for now I'll share my results. First off I wanted to say I'm not showing any wear on the feathers themselves. Just a little lipstick on the rest. So far with the materials I've had at hand I've done several tests. First off every time I raise my brace height no matter what arrow combo I use I'm getting weaker bareshafts. 1. 32" 500 spine arrow with 125 grain tip, bareshafts show very weak and nock high with a brace height of 7 1/2" and nock point of 11/16 2. 30.25" 400 spine arrow with 175 grain point, brace height of 7 1/2 and nock point of 3/4 shows slightly weak and nock high. 3. Same arrow but with a brace height of 7 1/4 shows a straight bareshaft but still pretty nock high. 4. Same 30.25" 400 with 200 grains up front and brace height of 7 1/2 shows weak and nock high 11/16 brace height 5. Same arrow but moving the brace height down is now very slightly weak and just a tad nock high.

I shoot each bare shaft of the different configurations 10 times and get the same consistent showing. Also to note every time I stiffen the shaft my point of impact moves closer to where I aim.

Ive put a slight counter clockwise twist on all my nocks to move the lower hen feather perfectly in the corner of the shelf. I haven't tried lipstick again but after around 60 fletched arrows I'm not showing any white residue from the hen feathers on my shelf anymore.

Your issues are caused by shooting arrows 5” and 4.25” longer than your draw. Cut those 500’s down to 28” and shoot them. They are weak at 32” but at 28” they should be perfect with those heavy points.

Kelly makes a good point. Carbon arrows are very sensitive to length adjustments and will stiffen up very quickly when shortened (and weaken up just as quickly as length increases). I'm betting that the 500 will be your arrow---just take your time and go a quarter inch at a time until you get to where you want to be.

I generally start bareshafting with a point weight the next range under where I want to end up that way if I cut a bit too much off I should be gold with the final weight I want to use. If I want 150 up front I usually begin bareshafting with 125. Once I get the lighter head shooting well I will switch over to the 150 and take my time (sometimes days) shooting and verifying the results and going very slowly on the cutting. It can be done a lot more quickly than efficiently than how I do it, but I enjoy the process and the results have been worth it. Good luck sir.

Just to fill everyone in I set the bow back to the original brace height of 7 1/4 and nock point of 3/4 30.25" shaft length and 200 grain point. Shot bare shafts and got slightly weak and nock high. Then shot through paper and got a very high and left tear. From there all i did was change point weight and nock height till I got my bareshafts shooting bullet holes through paper at 10 yards. This required a point weight of 150 and nock point of 1/2". I then shot it at the Target and it's showing perfect. So what the heck I figured I'll so the lipstick trick on the feathers again. What do you know.....no contact???

[[[ "Just to fill everyone in I set the bow back to the original brace height of 7 1/4 and nock point of 3/4 30.25" shaft length and 200 grain point. Shot bare shafts and got slightly weak and nock high. Then shot through paper and got a very high and left tear. From there all i did was change point weight and nock height till I got my bareshafts shooting bullet holes through paper at 10 yards. This required a point weight of 150 and nock point of 1/2". I then shot it at the Target and it's showing perfect. So what the heck I figured I'll so the lipstick trick on the feathers again. What do you know.....no contact???" ]]]

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