In John's second video he told of Howard dumping a box of 163 first place field archery ribbons on the table to prove he was good at target shooting. Later John makes the statement that target shooting and hunting don't mix. Sounds a little conflicting.
Later John makes the statement that target shooting and hunting don't mix. Sounds a little conflicting.
In my opinion he was talking about a mindset that developed a specific type of shooting. Swing Draw is the spot-and-stalk hunting archery based on his comments.
The one & only thing (I can think of), that I ever disagreed with Howard Hill about, was when he said you need to choose between target shooting, or hunting.
Never could figure that one out.
I say learn it all (or as much of it as you can), and you'll be all the better for your effort.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the price of beef in Nebraska. Most of us have made their own way of doing things with the help of whoever was available to us in our archery formative years. I respect all of our pioneers, but I don't dwell on things they may have said or did when it comes to my own way of enjoying the sport. You take the foundation and build your own, if it's a stable foundation, then you will have good success. I pretty much don't have anyone to blame or praise for how I do things.
By the way, I went to John's program at the Pa. Bowhunter Festival, back in the 80's, and I could shoot his method come heck or high water. It's not for everyone.
Well, George, I'm not sure if your opinion has any more meaning than anyone else's?
I can say that you may be a wee but Partisan, Aye?
Or are you repeating what I have already said in the few threads I have posted in the last few days?
Thank you, You made my day! lol
No George, I have not been Committed, not now, not ever, regardless of the Opinionated PM's that you circulated.
NOT TRUE! None of it, regardless of what power those who try to cling and adhere to here or anywhere else on the NET.
What and who am I?
I am an Archer, Bowhunter and retired Guy having fun and yes, Posting here and regardless of the Spin that has been circulated by gossip, have every regard for anyone else's opinion say for the little Spankings some try to perpetuate as Gossip and character assassination.
My posts have the same validity as yours or anyone else's, Thank you, have a nice day!
I have studied this, and have been enlightened on the subject.
Hill knew how to shoot a Bow.
Shulz knew.
Their system is misunderstood and there are few real practitioners of the "True methodology" of the Hill style and how they actually did it.
Target and Hunting?
The clear difference is one of adaptation.
Both Hill and Shulz could do either.
I would say that LaClair could too.
Here is the problem; many try to confuse this with other styles of shooting a Bow and I think what Shulz was saying is that there are variables in the Field of Bowhunting that are not Static targets.
Shulz or Hill either one could shoot a Running deer or rabbit, Many Target Archers may not be or ever be hunters?
THAT is the difference, and that only as I see the method perpetuated and misunderstood.
While many claims they shoot like Hill, they may have injected impurities in the application.
I was and still am a fan of Howard Hill and for a long time tried to shoot his style but NEVER achieved the magical level accuracy that a few have and believe me I’ve tried. If his method was so good how come more people have not succeeded?
I’ve pretty much given up on hill style bows and now shoot long weighted recurves with a shot sequence and my accuracy and more importantly my consistency has gone way up.
Todd, I think that many have not tried to exceed the limitations of shooting a static target and cling to the current curriculum of Dead targets just standing there.
Look at all the current "BIG MONEY SHOOTS", they are shooting at stuff that is just standing there, no movement, no nothing and have added "Bullseyes" and even Colors to focus on.
Have you ever seen a Deer with a yellow target on it?
Gold even? LOL, see the disparity between real hunting and Targets?
It is not a question of Instinctive or Gap or anything else, it is a question of what Game you are playing. WOW! An eye-opener!
If that Hill method worked, the top 3d shooters of today would be using it. If a game animal does give the time to allow a 4 second hold, it is not a shot that can be taken. Some people are built for comfort and other people like to gun it through the curves.
Here is the thing Sam, if I can’t hit a stationary gold bullseyes consistently with the Hill method, really don’t think I’ll do any better on a running deer or seriously am I missing something (pun intended).
I built bows for Vic Wunderlee for years, starting when he was in high school. We built bows for the entire Wunderlee family for a long time. They were deadly on targets and just as deadly on game. The last bow I made for Vic was a Super Diablo hunting bow. He's certainly not the only top target archer I know that is just as comfortable shooting game. Being an Olympic archer is NOT a burden when you go deer hunting. I've shot my share of limits hunting pheasant, geese and chukar using the same methods I shoot a standing deer or elk or a sleeping bear, or shooting 6 arrows in a "bunch" way down range when flight shooting. Not one or the other at all, unless YOU decide to exclude one or the other.
Sam, you incorrigible pot stirrer LOL. I liken Hill's and Schulz's longbow shooting to a Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Stephan Curry type of basketball player. Fluid form, fluid movement, accuracy coming from years of conditioned instinctual shooting. No mental checklist of proper form to get the shot off correctly, all the form has been ingrained subconsciously from thousands upon thousands of shots. Basketball players don't change ball sizes, weights, etc....their equipment never changes, they learn the ball, they learn the hoop and then let the body do what it can do. Hill and Schulz didn't change much in the way of equipment...keeping it basically the same all the years they shot, learning their equipment inside and out and letting the body and mind do what it can do.
I've discussed some of these things with Schulz. The main thing with the target vs. hunting type of longbow shooting is the fact that in yester-years, archers hunting on their feet, stalking and still hunting almost exclusively...rarely sitting and never in a tree. They took shots as they got them. Much like rabbit hunters nowadays. Being fluid, fast and adaptable in the shooting form lent itself to better success in the field.
Nowadays, hunting for the most part means to sit in a tree or blind and ambush game. You can draw and hold a long time if needed to get things to line up right for the shot, or you don't take it and wait for the next animal, since there's also a lot more game these days.
As Hill proved, he was a great shot on moving targets, exhibition shooting, animals, archery golf or field archery with unknown, unmarked distances. He was only average on target archery, because the target shooters had all day at known distances to get their shots off and they kicked his butt.
Likening hunting to target shooting today is a moot point when discussing deer hunting as both system will work, depending on how the shot is set up. Now....discussing rabbit hunting (which more closely resembles deer hunting past 50 years ago) and you will almost never see a good target archer bringing home the game, (unless they adapt their style) Their target style isn't conducive for that even though they may be great shots on the 3d or tourney circuit.
That "moving target" video is amazing. My hat's off to that guy. I can't even get a disc to stay in the air long enough for me to get a shot off. Then to hit it when it is moving downward is very hard.
I do better when someone else is throwing a disc or when using the "plastic bottle launcher".
I don't drink, but i do like to shoot fast and BMWs are suppose to speed up in the curves. Some folks are wired for fast and others are wired for slow. Some folks don't need a fly swatter to kill flies, and other folks are content to watch a fly die of old age. I could shoot target bows pretty good, but not quite good enough. However, I did jump a pheasant last fall, I knew exactly where he was, I could see his tail feathers. I got him when he was about 4 feet off the ground, the fastest game shot i had ever taken.
I’m also okay with passing up moving targets or game that doesn’t give me time to shoot with precision. Just like you would pass up longer shots beyond your confidence range.
Most archers see shooting as a stationary thing, stationary targets, stationary game and mechanical static methods. A few live in a shotgun world of pass shooting ducks, busting pheasants and rocket powered quail.
"Likening hunting to target shooting today is a moot point when discussing deer hunting as both system will work, depending on how the shot is set up. Now....discussing rabbit hunting (which more closely resembles deer hunting past 50 years ago) and you will almost never see a good target archer bringing home the game, (unless they adapt their style) Their target style isn't conducive for that even though they may be great shots on the 3d or tourney circuit." quote
Quail coveys are a blast to hunt. They have really small vitals. The first quail I hit with a bow was admittedly not the one I was shooting at. I had a thermos of coffee and some of those paper salt and pepper packs in my van, I had butter on my sandwich, ate the cold meat and cheese and used the butter on the bread to coat the quail, made a spit, started a little stick fire and ate the quail in the trees along side the road. It was a hot day, I still had some deer hunting to do and didn't want to waste the quail. It was great tasting.
Sam, I don't circulate PM's, but I do respond to ones sent to me. At any rate, never said John wasn't a good shot...he is. I said, and I'm meant it, that I couldn't shoot that style come heck or high water. I have much respect for John and his ability, I just can't shoot like him...my issue, not his.
Liquid Tension, you just proved people are different and that it's ok to be different. For me, that shot sequence stuff is just not fun. And I can't remember to do it when shooting at deer or aerial targets!
One time I read an article by a bowhunter who described the moment when shooting at a deer as the "ice moment". He described it as a time your mind doesn't think and may even go blank and the shot is made purely on muscle memory.
There are people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time who can learn consistent form and become excellent target shooters.
There are people whose wiring won't let them wait for the right sight picture, but can nail a running animal because there is no waiting and they couldn't possibly tear their focus away from the animal.
The guy throwing the Frisbee and then shooting it demonstrates the latter.
You guys have covered these thoughts in other words above. I'm just agreeing.
My point Shulz and Hill, neither had TP and were in total control of their shot and it may appear that both shot fast compared to long drawn out shots taught by Coaches today but if you slow down their videos you see that very same thing happening with good solid form, just faster.
These guys had it down so good they were both Masters of their form.
They both shot so well they could hit very small targets at longer distances but in the videos, you will see them both shooting at aerial targets and other objects rather than big Gold and yellow Bullseyes.
This idea that you have to shoot a certain way is Hogwash.
I think one of the reasons MOST people can't shoot the Hill style is they don't shoot 150-200 arrows EVERY DAY, DAY IN & DAY OUT. Continually working on concentration & focus. So when it comes time to execute the shot its a matter of reflex and muscle memory.
"I’m gonna disagree on blaming the person. It’s the style. If you have Panic & seek any Coach in the world the thing to fix you will be a Sequence & Back Tension. It will not get better by continuing to shoot Hill Style. Again no Coach in the World period will tell you to continue to shoot Hill style for Panic."
I blame the persons who thought they shoot like HH but they were shooting like his shadow : without knowing what they were doing, just following verbal instructions like "burn the hole". At one point in time the reality hits the fan. How many TP shooters were JS's students?
Some people are just gifted with dexterity and excellent hand eye coordination. Some are not. Some are athletic some are not. I think that has a lot to do with it. Not everyone can throw a football like Tom Brady. My son has the gift. He has been shooting for a short time and hits targets consistently out to 25 yards. I gave him a bow and explained how to draw and anchor, he figured out the rest on his own. He has developed his own draw sequence and shot cycle. When he deviates he misses. I ask him what did you do different. He usually knows. If your game is poking holes in a piece of paper then yes target form is the way to go. If you are shooting unknown distances quickly on uneven ground then I would think a hill/Schultz type form would be better if you have the ability and aptitude to do so.
One thing that is totally lost on the guys using the Hill style, or learning the Hill style, is that learning the form is very regimented. Very precise. What makes it look effortless and fluid is the countless hours and shots learning to shoot with the form. How many hours did Michael Jordan spend shooting baskets, or how many hours did Tiger Woods spend on the range, learning their form. In the public eye, the shots look fluid, casual, effortless..but it doesn't come willy-nilly.
Hill is often quoted..."many people want to shoot like me, but no one wants to practice like me". There you have it.
For those whose practice sessions are a couple dozen arrows a day, shooting one perfect arrow at a time in their backyard or indoor/outdoor range at a target face, then Castro's or another method of TP control probably works well. For those who's target range is stumping through the woods and shooting rabbits and squirrels, then learning the Hill/Schulz method works well, as long as you put in the time to learn it well.
For someone to make a claim that TP is caused by shooting like Howard Hill is just dumb. Muscles are fully engaged when shooting the Hill method, the draw arm ends up in line with the arrow like another method. Who cares what an 'archery expert' claims that does not understand the first thing about the Hill method and philosophy. I can point out two individuals that i know that developed TP shooting compounds at targets, they went to coaches to fix it and it got to where neither even wanted to bow hunt any longer. When I shot targets and hung around PAA indoor guys, a number of them had TP issues. To blame the Hill method is just dumb, people from any archery field can get their wires crossed and have TP. Some people just shoot too sloppy and develop bad habits, the Hill method has refinements like any other method, although many that do not understand it view it as a sloppy 'grip and rip it ' method.
Even on a Struttin' Sam thread the nay sayers have to come in and prove what they don't understand about John Schulz and Howard Hill. Nate, I am leaving the forums for good, there is no place for Hill style shooters on these forums.
People seem to confuse the Hill/Shultz thing with the Asbell method. Lots of Asbell devotee's have/had target panic, and a sore back from the crouching. Controlled circumstance videos do not tell the whole story most times.
Dean, don't give up so easy. There are at least 1 to 1 ratio TP affected shooters using a hard aiming too, and they don't have it because they are not using "back tension". Is very hard to say "I've got TP because I am not thinking" than "This thing gave me TP". It is full this forum with advises "do it until ingrain it - and forget it". And the hilarious part is coming from some target archer side too.
I've always had bouts of TP, even when I shot a compound with sights. But I think of it as PA (performance anxiety) or SF (stage fright), unless that's something different.
Uncle Lijah....exactly said. Schulz told me "TP is the fear of missing". Performance anxiety is the same thing. If you think about it, our fear of missing (to whatever degree) drives the target shooting step by step process mentality.
Please don’t be offended, NOT saying Hill method doesn’t work, “I” just can’t make it work to me. Obviously I must not understand the nuances of the style but that’s OK I have found what does work for me anyway .
You can ask God to cure TP and it will be done. I was worried I might be getting it, so, as I drew my bow, I promised God I'd reach full draw and hold. I did so, with ease. If I had broken my promise to God, I could have suffered eternal damnation, so I didn't break the Promise. Fear of the Lord overrode my potential TP and cured it. However, this was a chancy thing to do, and I've avoided it since. My TP never materialized, and I'm fine.
AMEN Frisky! David was a slingshot master and when Goliath tried to intimidate him, David just became more focused and planted a rock between his eyes! AMEN!
Hill had an open challenge to shoot against anyone, anytime, for any amount of money, if he could pick 1/2 the targets. No one took him up on the offer.
I'm of a pretty sure opinion that if that were to happen today, between a good 3d shooter and a good Hill style longbow shooter, and both could pick 15 targets to shoot at, and keep a total score....the good Hill style shooter would hit all or most of the vitals (8s or 10s at least) on the 3d shooter's range targets and might be a little behind the total score shot by the 3d shooter. There's only so much you can do to make the shooting more difficult on a stationary 3d target other than make the 10 ring smaller, and pushing the target further away hurts the 3d shooter because the 10 ring is harder to hit. But when the 3d shooter had to shoot the Hill style guy's targets...moving, flying, sitting, laying, 1.5 second timed, etc...I would think that his score would suffer dramatically and the Hill guy would pull way ahead.
Different shooting techniques and different ways of scoring success. It doesn't mean one style is better than another necessarily overall, just maybe better for a specific purpose
There is a youtube video called archery duel in china where there is shoot off between a hill style longbow and olympic recurve on moving targets. You will be surprised at how well a recurve and sights with a target style of shooting can do.
"You will be surprised at how well a recurve and sights with a target style of shooting can do." Actually some us wouldn't be surprised. I've seen Chris Barackett shoot birds on the wing and rabbits on the run with a sighted compound just as easy as anyone with any type of bow. You hae to shhot using a sequence and a method that is the least anount of mental and physical work for you as an individual. The more unnatural, and the more thinking that one has to do to make the shot correctly starts to cloud up the brain. You are trying to accomplish too may things at one time.
Yeah i know all that bull. It was a response to thinking a hill bow and fast shooting at moving targets would have the advantage over a target sight shooter.
KyPhil. I know Peter Stecher, have shot and hunted with him. He's a fine longbow shot. In his video promotion of the duel in China, you'll notice the moving targets were set up so that the target archery champ could compete...i.e. she had her bow already drawn and ready when the moving target appeared. Peter did not. His was a fluid longbow shot. I don't think her style would work in the woods, holding her bow at full draw walking around waiting for the deer, rabbit or bird to jump out.??
Yeah i know she already had it at full draw. A person could do that as well if someone was throwing disks or balls in the air. A quail taking off would be a different story but i think you could get a pheasant with a sight without being at full draw first.
"'You will be surprised at how well a recurve and sights with a target style of shooting can do.' Actually some us wouldn't be surprised. I've seen Chris Barackett shoot birds on the wing and rabbits on the run with a sighted compound just as easy as anyone with any type of bow."
I have a friend in Spain that could routinely dust clay pigeons with his ancient Mathews FX, sights and all. Didn't believe it until I saw it with my own eyes.
Figures with all the things going on in this world. I told you guys before Joe is brother to Mick Dodge.
TP can label a lot of things. There's so much garbage in the heads of many if they went to the landfill they would have to close the landfill and not let you in. LOL
Besides wheres Rick been? He better be down on that border help catch and release.
He says TP is Tooooooo private, too private for him to say anything about it because the Stars tell the story.
In the end, it is this: What works for you may not work for everyone else and the movement towards a ONEWORLD order of shooting a Bow is stinking dead horses.
There is no Universal empirical data that says you have to do it one way?
Hill used his aiming method to trick shoot and kill stuff. Kind of ridiculous to claim "Hill style" is the only way you can hit moving stuff when his aiming method is no faster than any other aiming method someone practices. And, yes, I met Hill and threw targets for him in the Seattle area when he was making appearances at archery lanes. When I asked him if he saw his arrow or point when he shot, he replied with a lot of sarcasm, "if I didn't, how would I know where the arrow was pointed?" I shot a lot of chukar over good dogs for years, along with pheasant and geese and a few ducks. I don't shoot "Hill style", but do use my version of his indirect aiming system. Ken Wilhelm never took a backseat in any kind of shooting, whether with Hill or anybody else. He just didn't have Hill's connections or penchant for self promotion. Funny how legends grow with time and stuff gets distorted with re-telling. For instance, Hill's amazing win record is often noted, but people seem to omit the fact that that was up to 1922. Makes you wonder about how many competitors were involved. Not bashing Hill, have huge respect for a lot of things he did and for the attention he brought to our sport, but the "wanna be's", not so much. Because you may try, but you are 'No Howard Hill.
(This post may get me banned from this site. I know it would on at least two other sites that do not allow any seemingly negative post about him. Whatever.)
I've shot with a guy who shot back to back perfect 300s, who was a member of the Olympic archery team, who beat Howard Hlls tournament scores, and who very arguably was as good a trick shot as Howard Hill (even Byron Ferguson has said he is glad he didn't have to compete with him). Even in advanced years he's still an excellent shot. His name is Arvid Danielson.
All this said, I happy with the method I developed and I honestly can say I would switched if I felt there was a better way to shot the bow & arrow (other than for flying targets and running game which I'm not that interested in).
There is not one method for everyone, but the one thing most people do lust for is accuracy and for trad archers that is accuracy with simplicity. I don't think a strong case can be made that Hill's method is the most accurate. Rather, a strong case can be made for most people, it arguably is the least accurate!
But for hitting tossed objects and running bunnies, 'ya it's the best!
"Hill's amazing win record is often noted, but people seem to omit the fact that that was up to 1922. Makes you wonder about how many competitors were involved." --- probably a handful, most tinkerers...not trying to put HH down, but c'mon 1922 tournaments?
As far as the American Longbot videos posted above, 'ya very impressive but inquiring minds might ask, "how many retakes?". I bet many here could make similar videos given a bit of time and/or video edits.
If the HH method was that good, yes you would see it represented in the top levels of trad. tournaments. But you don't. Zero. Zip.
Heck, you don't even see instinctive shooters at the top levels much anymore and those that do fairly well are probably really gap shooters for the most part.
How did a thread about John Schulz turn into this? It’s no wonder this site has spiraled downhill so fast and so many of the good guys that used to hang here left. Now, if you don’t shoot an ILF rig and string walk, you’re just a hunched over, overbowed arrow flinger...
When I first started here in 2004, this place was great. A thread like this would’ve been fun.
I think sometimes people forget that not all of us are interested in Olympic style archery. I appreciate those that have the interest, but don’t stuff it down people’s throats.
There’s a common thread (pun intended) here lately...
If you bring up anything regarding poundage or swing draw shooting, the same group comes scurrying out of the weeds with their tails raised ready to spray anyone that gets in front of ‘em.
Swing draw guys/gals and heavier poundage shooters have absolutely no problem with those that shoot Olympic style and light poundage. Too bad it’s a one way road.
Stickbow needs a new name. ILFOlympicstyleonly.com
"Swing draw guys/gals and heavier poundage shooters have absolutely no problem with those that shoot Olympic style and light poundage. Too bad it’s a one way road."
If only that were the case.
Look, the bowhunting vs. target shooting debate has raged on long before this site, and long before the internet, and long before computers.
Not the scene I had in mind Monkeyball but LOL. I recall a scene in there where one guy couldn't shoot a deer with his bow and Burt Reynolds made some reference to him being a target shooter. Or something to that effect. It's been around since probably the first person won a target competition.
I'm sure Native Americans were saying things like "yea, that guy can win the corn stalk shoot, but he's no good on live game." LOL
Hey Limbwalker, here it is: "Meet me in the woods" or "I can hit hair" or, "If it was a Squirrel I could hit it" or, "My motivation is meat" and it goes on.
Here is the thing, if Shulz re-wrote the Deliverance Movie it would have been just sticking the bad guys and going fishing, right?
Now in Ned's case, he would have stayed home man, unless of course, he had Bug spray? lol
The point is: We all are playing one game or another if your game is 30 and in, you can shoot faster closer and slow down further and aim.
Question: How are you living the archery pipedream these days?
Personally, I like good pipedream! Some are on a collectors kick and just want to collect something and shoot a little.
Some are chasing Muskox and Mountain Goats.
MONEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY may be the question of how you play. For me on the money thing, strike one I'm out. Blessed
Woodchuck, fyi, I'm not upset one bit although I do feel swing draw has a dismal record for creating TP in a high percentage of trad. archers.
Also, I don't normally shoot Olympic stye. There is a video of me shooting Olympic style with vertical bow, etc. but that was because I was shooting for form analysis by an Olympic coach. But I normally cant, pure hunting stye (if there is such a thing). I just aim and release differently than anyone else, but it wouldn't even be noticeable to the casual observer.
Howard Hill did a lot for archery and we have to respect that. However, debating the relevance of his form for todays archers is not criticizing the man or his accomplishments.
John Schulz is an amazing guy. He taught me how to properly shoot a longbow and after an hour or so of shooting, he had me shoot a silver dollar out of the air. I had it for years and then some maggot stole it when I was doing Elk calling seminars in New Jersey!
John is a true gentleman and a great friend. By-the-way, when he made the video, "HITTING THEM LIKE HOWARD HILL", they were prepared to film for a while until he could shoot an Aspirin out of the air. HA! He hit the first one!
Larry wrote "When I asked him if he saw his arrow or point when he shot, he replied with a lot of sarcasm, "if I didn't, how would I know where the arrow was pointed?" I've seen a picture of HH shooting with a quite long arrow. My guess he was aiming with the arrow tip very precisely and used an extra long arrow to get his point on exactly where he wanted. When he shot moving targets, undoubtedly he was shooting more instinctively.
As I mentioned above, Arvid Danielson was very familiar with HH's abilities and also saw him shoot. I asked what he thought HH could do on the 300 round with his longbow and after a bit of reflection he said, "maybe 260"...quite good for trad. bow, but a long way from legendary splitting arrow type of precision. The Guiness World Record most "Robin Hoods" in 24 hrs. is held by AD himself (and another archer whose name escapes me).
The competition shoots of today and the peer pressure is responsible for a lot TP, not the urge to go behind the bushes, it is the difference between being in possession of baby wipes and trying to beat everybody at the shoot today. lol
Archery has become way too intent on IBO and peer pressure.
That is why Elitist attitudes form and then they try to sell their success and tell everybody else how they should shoot a Bow.
I may do a 5-minute free seminar on youtube in the next few days and tell you what you need to shoot a Bow?
5 minutes could cover it, the rest is up to you through practice and not overanalyzing it like you would Rocket Science.
Interesting. These days there are very few longbow shooters using wood arrows and with a 260/300 score. And none using “split-vision” - intuitive gap. His score by AD will put him right there, with the best of the best.
This is true about Shulz!...He would use leaves, moss, rip strips of cloth off his shirts or even sacrifice the underwear he had on! I once let him use a pair of my gloves and when he got back from hunting, I only got 1 glove back! The left one! Yuck!
How does anyone today knows if Hill had TP? I guess it’s fun for some to conjecture, but that’s all it is unless someone who was there, or his personal notes indicated that he had/overcame TP. I break out Paul’s video once in awhile to see if i can glean a bit.
I think if HH was shooting the 300 round he would use the long arrow and aim the tip as his front sight. Sorry, I don't have the pic of him apparently doing this.
