I am going elk hunting this fall for the second time. I was able to get a shot on a cow the first time and connected but it was a gut/liver shot. My arrow broke off after 13 inches and we were able to find her 250-300 yards from the shot. A top moment/ series of moments in my life for sure.

This year, I would like to change the arrow setup I use. First setup was 57# limbs in my RER LXR with a 550 Gr arrow with 12.25% FOC. I think the arrow I was using was too weak in spine hind sight... which hurt the performance in addition to being overbowed.

My setup this year will be 49# limbs on the same riser. Arrows have been bareshafted and will be much closer to correct for my bow than last year. I have two arrows to pick from. 1) 525gr with 26%FOC— 100gr brass insert with 175 tip 2) 550gr with 23% FOC — 12gr alum insert with 250 tip

How much will the momentum be different with each setup? Do I go with the slightly lighter arrow but with 3% more FOC?

I am tempted by the lighter arrow for flatter trajectory and more broad head options.

Thoughts? I will be going with higher FOC no matter what, so please frame responses with FOC in mind.

Cheers!

Momentum is mass times velocity. Differences in foc will not change that.

MP

That 25 gr of weight is not going to make much difference in trajectory unless you have some serious longer range shooting skills. I'm going to say go 550 but that's without knowing your broadhead on each.

I think you are chasing the wrong tail.

All of those arrow formulas don't explain arrow penetration.....they are commonly misapplied on these forums. They don't account for resistance. Its the reason why a fast high KE arrow doesn't penetrate well.

The simple answer is, there are 3 main factors;

#1 is perfect arrow flight, 2) a very efficient BH, 3) arrow weight

Shoot a 10GPP-12GPP arrow that flies perfect with a strong 2 blade head and you can kill anything in North America.

When you start tweaking for other supposedly important factors....it affects your forgiving accuracy...and that ain't good.

I like Beendare's advice here, but there is one thing I will add and, yes, it does have to do with Dr. Ashby's list of arrow attributes.

If (and it's a long way from elk season) you are going to use one of those set-ups, I would go with the arrow with the 100 gr. insert.

The reason being the very first thing on Ashby's 12 point list is structural integrity. To me, that 12 grain aluminum insert is the weak spot on animals bigger than deer.

There are many options in brass and stainless steel to choose from and plenty of time to tweak arrow length, brace height, and what not to get that perfect tune.

If you are shooting the same weight arrow, at the same speed you aren't going to see enough difference in penetration to matter.

All 3 of those arrows if properly tuned are going to provide virtually identical results on the same kind of shot. In other words none of them are going to turn a bad shot good.

As for overall weight, as was mentioned, there isn't enough difference to matter.

Here are the top 12 things to consider if you are worried about FOC and penetration:

https://www.grizzlystik.com/Top-12-Arrow-Penetration-Enhancing-Factors.aspx

Ashby's quote:

If you want to turn your hits into kills, my advice is: Use any bow you like, compound, recurve or longbow. Hunt with the heaviest draw weight bow you can handle (and ‘handle’ is the key word here). Select a quality single blade broadhead of a long and narrow shape. Mount it on as heavy a shaft, of as small a diameter, as your bow will shoot with reasonable trajectory. As we shall see in Part IV: The Physics of Arrow Penetration, extra arrow mass does a lot to offset lower bow draw weight or arrow velocity. Use a minimum of 650 grains total arrow weight for most big animals and 900 grains if after the ‘super big’ animals. Don’t worry about arrow speed. Practice until you can place your arrows in the ‘kill zone’ at the range you intend to shoot. Study your quarry’s habits and practice your hunting skills. The heavier arrows do cost you some ‘range’. Get close to your game before shooting. Get your broadheads really sharp. That, in total, is my personal formula. It usually results in finding the quarry, quite dead, at the end of a rather short blood trail. Is it 100 percent effective? Almost. Out of several hundred animals hit with such an arrow and broadhead, only two failed to end up hanging in my camp. One was a Minnesota black bear. Within 20 yards of where it was hit, it plunged over a steep bank and into a dense cedar swamp with chest deep water. I never located him. The other was a mule deer. The blood trail ended, just five feet from a ‘Jeep trail’, in a puddle of blood, a ‘body print’, tire tracks and human footprints. He ended up in someone else’s freezer! In the next installment of this series, we will examine the physical laws which govern arrow penetration, assuming one uses those good broadheads that will remain undamaged!

Simple answer, shoot the one that tunes the best. Proper arrow flight most important.

Your arrow specs are close enough that I don't think you will see much difference in terminal performance, if the broadhead design is same for both. If using 2 blade for both the 250gr should be a stronger broadhead.

I agree the arrow flight should be determining factor. I have some shafts here and am trying to make the best arrow setup without buying different ones. The two arrrows I mentioned are the same length 28”. The 525 are carbon express maximum blue shafts with a 3gpi weight tube. The brass inserts I have fit so I live that.

The second arrow are Beman CenterShot. They have aluminum inserts glued in already and are cut.

I also agree the larger head would be stronger by design but weak at the aluminum insert. The brass insert would be stronger but with the weaker head.

Would footing the aluminum insert shaft be “as strong” as the brass connection? I didn’t have much in aluminum shafts, so I would be searching to do that.

I appreciate the advise everyone! I’m coming off a bad year deer hunting. So In addition to focusing on my arrow setup, I am going thru form training to get some bad target panic out of my head. Having confidence in my arrow will really help that issue as well!

An aluminum footing is a good idea provided it doesn't effect arrow flight.

Mpdh gave the right answer based on physics...and that answer is correct.

I contemplated the same question about 10 years ago for a moose hunt. I was shooting a longbow 50 pounds at 29 inches. Here's a couple of thoughts.

If you're changing your form, you will most likely change your arrow tune.

Bare shafting is a 'catch all phrase'. Impacts between a bare shaft and a fletched are the way to start. In your case, you NEED to have the broadhead impact in the same spot as the field point.

You could have a 100 maybe a 1000 failures before that aluminum insert is going to bend or break. If you don't foot the shaft the carbon will most like go first.

The exact reason not to use a brass insert is ungluing them - real PITA. Use a Woody Weight instead, you'll get more FOC.

Look at Ashby report 2008 Update #4. It got me to change to 3 two inch feathers. I didn't use a tubulator (SP) then, but I do now.

My former 5 inch feathers were an ave of 1 FPS slower than the 2 inch AT THE CHRONY. At 22 yards there was an ave of 4 inches in trejectory between the 5 and 2. Two always being higher. I've been shooting 2 inch since, because I considered that significant.

My arrow ended up being a .390 spine weighing 625, with a 360 grain head - 160 STOS +100 gran adaptor+100gr Woody Weight. I don't remember the FOC.

I would absolutly paper test my broadheads. I've never had a problem once the impacts were together, but shooting a BH at 12 feet and 12 yards helped me sleep at night.

I see you're a fellow Cheezehead, if you come to Ojibwa's Trad Shoot on 4/13-14 I'll be there coaching. PM me and I'll bring the paper frame.

My moose was running right in between 12 feet and 12 yards. This is the heart of an elk I double lunged at 29 yards. (The 2 inch feathers gave me good trejectory LOL.)

Bowmania

An aluminum footing will impede penetration and negate any other benefit that it may have provided. That is if you are actually attempting to replicate Ashbian results. But at the foundation of that is the fact that if Ashbian results are your goal, your arrow is too light to begin with.

I was planning on 2” feathers actually. I will also be at the trad shoot Bowmania. Not sure the day or time. But I will be there.

I do know that form will change the tune. Arrows are flying good now and the form is not perfect. But good . It will be something to watch as I move closer to the hunt. I won’t make the final cuts on shafts until I am satisfied it will be right. Just glad I have time and good resources on my side!

So fdp how does an aluminum footing impede penetration provided it is narrower than the ferrule of the broadhead? That makes 0 sense!

b.a., before Ashby, almost every species of game in almost every continent were being taken with a bow and arrow, and really, no animal in America needs the same arrow deemed excellent for cape buffalo to be shot at them. That's just a fact, based on more than a hundred years of archery in America, and personal experience. If I were hunting those large animals with plated ribs, etc., I would own Ashby's writings and glean what pertained to my set-up, but from mice to moose in North America, I will just shoot what has been working for me for all these years, and working well.

I don't see how the aluminum footing could be smaller than the ferrule of the broadhead. If it is, then penetration would not be compromised.

Went to a shoot today and my buddy and I talked about this on the drive over.

Bowmania has brought it up with me before and I know he doesn't like the brass inserts cause when they are epoxied it is permanent but arrows can be tuned using them by cutting off the other end of the shaft.

From here on out I personally will be using the Tophat or Ethics Archery stainless steel static insert/outsert just because I like the transistion to points and broadheads and they are super strong. You do not need any outside footing with Axis shafts.

I will also agree that even though the regular insert is alum. that it will be a pretty freak hit that causes it to fail without already doing it's job. I was wrong about that. It's the alum. broadhead glue in adapter that should be avoided.

If you use low temp hot melt on inserts it's easy to remove. I learned that on this site, I didn't think that it would be durable enough but it is.

fdp. Here are 2 examples. The left is a Victory .204 OD arrow with 2013 aluminum footing with an Ashby broadhead and the one on the right is an Easton axis .204 OD 2013 aluminum footing Tuffhead broadhead. So yes it is possible for an aluminum footing to be smaller than a ferrule of a broadhead.

Axis or Beeman shafts are very tough. I’ve shot them into solid concrete at over 200fps and they bounce back undamaged 90% of the time. I would never foot them, fat shafts dont penetrate as well.

Both are with in .2 to .3 of 11 GPP, if it is 49 at your draw length. I doubt you or the elk will notice a difference in weight or 3% FOC. Get them sharp and flying good. If they fly good for --YOU -- with 2" fletch under various conditions,that is a bonus. Good hunting & shoot straight. >>>>-----> Ken

"I don't see how the aluminum footing could be smaller than the ferrule of the broadhead."

A skinny aluminum footing on a skinny carbon might add up to 'skinnier than the ferrule'.

At what they charge for those skinny .166 diameter shafts, I'd foot them.

Whichever one tunes best

The only thing you need to change is where you hit the elk.

The hit on the elk wasn't too bad. If the liver had been missed it could have been a very poor outcome. Based on the description I'm guessing that no bones were hit. If so, 13" of penetration was a poor outcome. Plenty on a deer but more is desirable on an elk.

Enjoy reading comments on posts like this, kinda makes me laugh, kinda makes me wonder who's got experience killing elk and how many elk they've killed. Especially those preaching the Ashby study...

First of all, the op never should of hunted with an untuned bow. Can't believe no one talked of that from the way some of you guys are. How far was the shot? When guys talk of making gut shots on elk, I always wonder if they were shooting to shoot at an animal way past their effective range.

As for momentum between the two arrow setups, 25 grains ain't going to help you at all in momentum. And 25 grains ain't gonna give you a change in arrow trajectory. What it will go is limit your range, and with that lite of a bow, everything over 20 yards should be passed. Everyone can argue this all you want, but in order to keep momentum up, you need to keep the arrow speed up. You loose speed, you loose momentum.

There's a guy over on Bowsite that's killed a lot of elk with a 53# recurve and 125 grain 3 blade Muzzy's on carbon shafts that don't weight over 450 grains. He's wrote articles about it for Traditional Bowhunter. Personally, I've killed my bulls with 55# sticks and 440 grain carbon shafts. You'd be surprised what you can kill with perfected tuned bows and good sharp broad heads...

Great post , Anthony !

BTW, you're not a guide are you ? Perhaps in the Valle Vidal area ?

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