Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


help with bow identity

Messages posted to thread:
RonG 11-Mar-19
RonG 11-Mar-19
bodymanbowyer 11-Mar-19
RonG 11-Mar-19
Bob Hildenbrand 11-Mar-19
RonG 11-Mar-19
RonG 11-Mar-19
M60gunner 11-Mar-19
SB 11-Mar-19
SB 11-Mar-19
dean 12-Mar-19
bowhunt 12-Mar-19
MStyles 12-Mar-19
twostrings 12-Mar-19
rusty 12-Mar-19
RonG 12-Mar-19
RonG 12-Mar-19
RonG 12-Mar-19
RonG 12-Mar-19
dean 12-Mar-19
RonG 13-Mar-19
SB 13-Mar-19
RonG 13-Mar-19
mangonboat 13-Mar-19
SB 13-Mar-19
fdp 13-Mar-19
RonG 14-Mar-19
RonG 14-Mar-19
twostrings 14-Mar-19
RonG 15-Mar-19
MStyles 15-Mar-19
RonG 15-Mar-19
RonG 15-Mar-19
RonG 15-Mar-19
fdp 15-Mar-19
SB 15-Mar-19
monkeyball 15-Mar-19
Deno 15-Mar-19
twostrings 15-Mar-19
RonG 16-Mar-19
RonG 17-Mar-19
From: RonG
Date: 11-Mar-19

RonG's embedded Photo



Folks I got a Border Griffon GL longbow from a gentleman today and he threw in another bow that looks similar, of course all longbows look very similar.

This one has BSC 702732 62 @28" I searched the internet, but couldn't find anything on this.

The upper limb has a small twist in it, I know how to remove a twist from a self-bow, but not sure about a laminated one, may be the same procedure.

I would appreciate any help with this, just curious as it doesn't matter who made it, it shoots great.

I will include a photo of the first four shots taken after I strung it. Due to the increased poundage I was a little nervous about shooting this thing. I have been shooting 45lbs for the last year. The draw was smooth all the way back and it didn't seem to increase drastically at full draw, a mighty fine bow, I will have to refinish both bows, I wish my Howard Hills drew this nicely.

I will start another post on my Border maybe tomorrow, it has a few other problems I'm sure I can fix, but would appreciate opinions.

Thank you for any help

From: RonG
Date: 11-Mar-19

RonG's embedded Photo



From: bodymanbowyer
Date: 11-Mar-19




Oh 62# careful Ron. JF

From: RonG
Date: 11-Mar-19

RonG's embedded Photo



This was at 20 yards and this thing shot great, I will tighten up this group as soon as I get used to the drastic increase in weight.

I forgot to mention that it has carbon on both sides of the limbs just like the Border Griffon GL.

I know all new bows are the best ever shot, but this one really is the best I ever shot, The only arrows I had in the correct spine were these 30 year old clubs. They went down range at a tremendous speed.

From: Bob Hildenbrand
Date: 11-Mar-19




Hill??? The writing is very similar.

From: RonG
Date: 11-Mar-19




Thanks Jeff, my back can handle an 85lb bow with no problem, but my shoulder hurt just a little after shooting 24 times. I will exercise and work slowly into it, I just couldn't resist trying it out, you know how us kids are....Ha!Ha!

From: RonG
Date: 11-Mar-19




I thought maybe the letters BSC would trigger something. There is nothing else on the bow.

From: M60gunner
Date: 11-Mar-19




I thought it might have been a “Black Wolf” from HH. I checked Dick Wittmans old website but bow not the same. Craig has been know to make special bows. That writing and numbers sure does indicate a Craig made bow.

From: SB
Date: 11-Mar-19




Yep ,looks like a Hill to me also! Spent a lot of time in his shop when I lived across the valley from Howard Hill Archery.

From: SB
Date: 11-Mar-19




The first two digits in the ser. No. is the length. Never seen a Hill longbow with a twisted limb. They are thick and narrow ...don't see how one could get a twist in it. You sure that S isn't a 5? As in BIg Five Custom. It's most definitely a Hill bow ..and that is how they marked them

From: dean
Date: 12-Mar-19




I have never seen one twisted by accident either, unless it was made offline to begin with. One of my buddies once shot a hole 3d round and didn't notice that his bowstring under the leather tip protector on the bottom tip was off the groove on one side, it did no harm to the bow and he shot a great round besides.

From: bowhunt
Date: 12-Mar-19




You can try to counter twist the limb in the opposite direction of the twist and keep working it.I usually do this with the bow strung.But unstrung as well.I have straightened a few limbs but they were all recurves and easier to counter twist.

I think that hill style bow would be harder to do with the narrow deep core limbs and maybe with the higher poundage.May take some elbow grease.keep working the limb the opposite direction of the twist getting more pressure as needed to return it to allignment.

Looks like it shoots great though as is.

From: MStyles
Date: 12-Mar-19




How many lams are in that bow? Looks like 6-8?

From: twostrings
Date: 12-Mar-19




It's the best bow you ever shot and you want to make a change in a limb?

From: rusty
Date: 12-Mar-19




big horn sheep

From: RonG
Date: 12-Mar-19




Yea I know twostrings...Ha!Ha! I am afraid of the limb twisting more.

M styles it has at least that many Lams, I will check.

SB I will look closer and let you know.

Thank you everyone for the info so far.

The limbs on this bow are very narrow like an Ekins bow and very thick as stated, maybe I can contact Craig and he could check the serial number. I wasn't concerned before, but with the info so far I am getting interested in what it may be. I do know that it shoots fine and the best part is the draw is so even through the whole length, it doesn't seem to get stronger as you pull, kind of weird, but nice.

From: RonG
Date: 12-Mar-19




bowhunt should I use heat also

From: RonG
Date: 12-Mar-19




It definitely is an S and not a 5.

It has nine lams of what I assume is bamboo near the handle and fades and tapers out to five near the tips plus a layer of carbon or black glass on the front and back of the limbs.

I noticed that the limbs have been slightly cut on a trapezoid in order to lower the weight, I haven't checked the weight, but due to the low amount taken off the front corners it probably was about five to eight pounds making the bow 55 to 58 lbs. That is probably why the top limb twisted because of the material removed allowing inner stresses to take over, I hope I can take out some of this. It also has Reflex when unstrung and nock overlays, I'm not sure if Craig puts these on his bows.

I didn't notice the trapezoid shape of the limbs on this one, but the border bow was done because it was originally 85 lbs and was cut down to 64 lbs. I may have trouble drawing that one.

I appreciate the info and if any more info or pictures are needed, let me know and I will do my best.

Thank you fellas

From: RonG
Date: 12-Mar-19




OK folks, I should have had a contest on this one, everyone who said it was a Howard Hill wins, I don't know what, but you won.

It is a Howard Hill Wesley Special with a few extra lams, it looks like it should be a 100lb bow but it is actually 60lbs.

A bit strong for me, and my shoulder is agreeing with that, but I will exercise and work up to that bow because I love the way it handles.

I am a happy fella due to the fact that I am a Howard Hill fanatic and I have another Craig Ekin bow and the top of the line bow besides that.

Thank you everyone for your help in steering me in the right direction to find out.

I will attempt to straighten the limb and refinish or possibly send it back to Mr Ekin for repairs if he does that.

From: dean
Date: 12-Mar-19




The two that I have seen would not twist straight. I took material off the limb and string groove. I got them really cheap because they were off line, fixed them and gave them to newbie friends that are still hunting with them.

From: RonG
Date: 13-Mar-19




Well folks, this mighty fine bow bit the dust today.

I was straightening the very narrow limbs with my bare hands, someone had taken a router to the edge of the limbs and drastically narrowed them down to lower the draw weight.

The limbs straightened very easily, hardly put any pressure on them.

I filed on the nocks to straighten them up and restrung it, it was still twisted, but a lot better, slightly twisted limbs shoot as well as straight ones.

I drew back the bow and it just bent over, it de-laminated and the limb just folded over, under careful inspection it looked like a knot or where the router may have dug in where it folded over.

I am gluing and have it clamped, but don't see any hope in it.

The limbs a foot away from the nocks were about 3/8" wide extremely narrow, when I strung it with a stringer of course I could take the string and rotate it slightly in the grooves to move the limbs straight, that is why I redid the string grooves, evidently the newly applied pressure must have been too much for the limbs.

It is just a shame such a fine bow bit the dust.

I spent two days on this bow carefully filing and rechecking, maybe someone else could have saved it.

From: SB
Date: 13-Mar-19




That sucks!...somebody without a clue ruined that one before you got it. I doubt Craig could have even saved it.

From: RonG
Date: 13-Mar-19




It was a gift for me to try and save and just didn't work out, but if most Wesley specials shoot and draw like this one I may look into getting a new one or used if it is in my range.

I have a Border that also has been routed to reduce the weight from 85 down to 64, but the limbs are more substantial and I am pretty sure I can do this one, I may not be able to shoot it, but I will try..........maybe I can trade it for a wesley....Ha!Ha!

From: mangonboat
Date: 13-Mar-19




Ron, the riser of that mystery bow would make a fine cabinet handle for your gun cabinet, cigar humidor or liquor cabinet. I love how you celebrated this bow and took it through its paces in the hours before its demise...you must be an archer.

From: SB
Date: 13-Mar-19




The right Bowyer COULD relimb it!

From: fdp
Date: 13-Mar-19




Why in the world would anybody use a router on bow limbs to try and reduce weight?

From: RonG
Date: 14-Mar-19




FDP, That is what I was asking, unbelievable. It looked like a router because of the edge it left down the length of the limb, you can't cut one by hand that accurate.

Mangonboat, you made my day, Thank you for such a nice comment, I appreciate what other people make and the time and care they put into the finished product to just throw it in the trash, I wanted so bad to save this one, but the archery gods had a different idea. I finally Identified it as a Howard Hill Wesley Special custom made with extra lams of bamboo by Craig Ekins. 70" 62@ 28"

I do have a Border that had the same thing done to it, but not so extreme, I will take a different route with that one, someone even filed the tips down so you can't use a stringer, you have to hand string it and me being 72 and the bow being over 60lbs, I can't string it, so I may try to replace the tip or use one of those limb stringers.

Thank you everyone for the help and comments.

From: RonG
Date: 14-Mar-19




SB, I never heard of someone re-limbing a longbow, is that possible or would it be more than buying a new one, If I was on the latest sight the bow was only $650.00 new.

If this was only any bow than a HH by Craig I wouldn't be so upset.

Mangonboat had a neat idea, but I hate to cut up the bow, I would rather glue it and display, I have successfully re-glued and wrapped a limb on previous bows with great success, but this broke straight across.

The more I am thinking as I am typing, the limb broke mid way actually closer to the tip, maybe a re-limbing is possible.

Any opinions would be appreciated, I will post a photo on the break

From: twostrings
Date: 14-Mar-19




A tale of doomed love. Hearts that burned so bright, flew so high, but it was not to be. Cruel fate dealt the blow, a deep and final cut. Yet in your melancholy you ponder what will come, and you know you will sing again, someday.

From: RonG
Date: 15-Mar-19




Thanks Martin, You folks may think I am crazy, ......well I know I am!!!........I am going to try and repair this baby.

The limb broke in a 90 degree angle and the glass de-laminated and broke, also the wood layers de-laminated, I know everyone would throw it away, but I just can't give up, I have some fantastic glue and I will cut away the layers and replace them staggering the layers for strength, I will use this glue also to replace the glass in that area.....Will Keep everyone posted.

From: MStyles
Date: 15-Mar-19




I like your moxie! I applaud your effort to salvage that bow, and hope you do. When I was a kid, my Dad wouldn’t allow me to give up when I’d have a tough chore (like hanging the huge, non-standard wood and hand rolled glass storm windows on our old victorian home at the beginning of Fall) or trying to make something when I was a kid, like a wood or plastic model. I couldn’t throw anything away bc it cost money. He always told me to back away from it and come back to it later on. I couldn’t be bothered with the accompanied instructions. I built some weird stuff with my Erector set. I was impulsive, impatient, and had the attention span of a fruit fly. Fast forward to the 21st century. Now, I have little choice...I’m neurotic about everything with our traditional tack. I try and salvage anything that fails or doesn’t seem to live up to my expectations. I do succeed every now and then. Good luck with your bow.

From: RonG
Date: 15-Mar-19

RonG's embedded Photo



Thank you Mike, I removed the glass on the front and filed the wood down to the damaged (compressed area) and made an insert of aircraft plywood, I carefully cut and fit it and glued with Cascophen also known as Resorcinol glue, now most of you folks know how strong that stuff is and it adhere's to wood nicely.

I wish I had some bamboo to match what was there, but I will try this and check the flexibility as I go I will also replace the glass with the same stuff, it works similar to glass.

If it doesn't work I will try something else or seek experts opinions.

Here is the photo after removing the glass

From: RonG
Date: 15-Mar-19

RonG's embedded Photo



Here is a close view after the glass was removed

From: RonG
Date: 15-Mar-19




I had already glued the wood lam's back together, I put the bow limb in my vise and pulled the limbs straight and secured it overnight and it stayed right where it was supposed to. I did glue the insert in tonight and will wait at least three days before I put any pressure on the limb, I will floor tiller it carefully.

Hopefully the bow gods are looking down on me favorably.

If the limb was in two pieces, I may not have tried, hang tight folks the results in couple days.

Any comments are appreciated.

From: fdp
Date: 15-Mar-19




Ron..where did you find Resorcinal?

From: SB
Date: 15-Mar-19




Ron has leftovers from the airplane days! I'm betting he actually pulls this off! Check out his yew wood self bow that lost a limb! Still shooting on the "first" shot thread!...Would the bamboo flooring that some Bowyers use work in this case?

From: monkeyball
Date: 15-Mar-19




The only comment I have Ron, is make sure you have goggles and a helmet on when you take it out and see if it holds.....just in case.

Good Shooting->->->-> Craig

From: Deno
Date: 15-Mar-19




Good luck Ron.

Deno

From: twostrings
Date: 15-Mar-19




By Jove, I think he knows what he's doing. Might not work but the journey will be worth it.

From: RonG
Date: 16-Mar-19




Thanks for all the encouragement and well wishes, I will definitely walk on rice paper for the first tests...Ha!Ha!

fdp, I get the glue from Aircraft Spruce, it sells under a different name Cascophen.

It has a brown powder as an activator and a thick red liquid as the base, you mix them together and I believe you have about an hour to use it, it sets up in 90 minutes and hardens overnight. I use it to glue my Billets together to make a stave. Tough stuff, this will be the test of the glue because this limb broke over in a 90 degree break as you can see in the photo how the wood compressed then de-laminated.

Thank you folks for such positive feedback, if it doesn't work I have plan 2 to fall back on, it just won't be so pretty, but I am sure it will work.

I just love tinkering with the impossible....Ha!Ha!

From: RonG
Date: 17-Mar-19




Well, The bow gods couldn't even pull this one off...Ha!Ha!

I floor tillered it, everything looked great, then I carefully strung it and I immediately saw the problem it had a dog leg in it, the wood was crushed not just de-laminated, I was able to pull full draw on it, but the top limb was strong and the bottom weak.

I unstrung it and flexed the limb in the opposite direction and that is when it broke in the area that was crushed. When I unstrung the bow the limb stayed approximately in the strung position.

I guess I could cut the last 20 inches off the limb and possibly get some bamboo from Craig and step laminate it back on and make a new partial limb, but the bows don't cost that much and this one was already destined for the trash, probably why I got it as a gift.

If I had just left it alone, it probably would have lasted for some time, but being in a severe S shape, it scared me.

Thanks for your support and encouragement, by the way where it was glued with the Resorcinol that part held.





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