Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


a question for selfbow makers

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Messages posted to thread:
Dan Jones 20-Feb-19
badger 20-Feb-19
bradsmith2010santafe 20-Feb-19
Jeff Durnell 20-Feb-19
RC 20-Feb-19
Dan Jones 20-Feb-19
RC 20-Feb-19
badger 21-Feb-19
RC 21-Feb-19
Eric Krewson 21-Feb-19
George Tsoukalas 21-Feb-19
Arvin 21-Feb-19
bradsmith2010santafe 21-Feb-19
Dan Jones 22-Feb-19
BuzAL 22-Feb-19
George Tsoukalas 22-Feb-19
Pa Steve 22-Feb-19
RC 22-Feb-19
Jeff Durnell 22-Feb-19
RC 22-Feb-19
Jeff Durnell 22-Feb-19
From: Dan Jones
Date: 20-Feb-19




I'm making a board bow and I've reached the point where I've braced the bow with a regular string for the first time. What I see is that the string does not run through the center of the limbs. Both limb tips look out of alignment. What does one do to get the string to track down the center of the limbs? I believe I once saw something to the effect that one weakens the limb on the opposite side of the twist, but I'm just not sure of that. Thanks.

From: badger
Date: 20-Feb-19




You can probably just look at your limbs and see which side is thicker. But the string will favor the thicker or stronger side.

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 20-Feb-19




also keep in mind,,a wood bow does not have to be in perfect alignment to shoot well, if the string stays on,, it will probably shoot ok if the string is to one side of the handle a bit,, make that the arrow side,, as you gain experience you will get better at getting the string where you want it,,, you can also move the string nocks to get the string more to center,,, you can heat bend it at handle if its way off,, etc etc etc,, if you post pics it will be easier to help,,, I guess my point is,,, having the strin line up perfect is not that critical to having a nice shooting bow,,, if the string goes by the arrow pass,,pretty close,, what it does on the limbs is secondary,,,

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 20-Feb-19




Hi Dan. More info might be helpful. Are the limb tips pointing to the same side, or in opposite directions? How bad is it? If it's not too bad, you might be able to let it go.

What kind of wood is it? Is it a store bought board? Flat, quarter, rift sawn? Does that sawn orientation stay consistent for it's length, or does it change? For instance, if it is quartersawn on one end, but looks more rift sawn on the other end and the grain runs out the side, the tree may have grown twisted. Flat boards can be cut from twisted trees, and can work ok for furniture makers, but they don't always like to behave for us bowyers. We're woodworkers too, but our craft is more 'dynamic'.

What shape is it in currently. Is it rectangular in cross section and perfectly flat side to side? How wide are the tips? Did you leave them wide enough to allow room to deepen the string groove on one side to move the string over? This is part of a technique used to correct limb twist that I'll elaborate on below.

Anyway, here are some things I look at when I have a wooden bow limb pointing toward the side upon first bracing it. Some of it is formality, because I'm very, very careful up to this point, but I always check these things again, and again to be sure.

There's a reason the limb(s) is pointing to the side, and it could be an internal, invisible thing within the wood, but I want to make SURE it wasn't something I did, even in some small part, to cause it. If I DID cause it, the fixes are generally simpler, so I kind of secretly hope I screwed up or missed something :^)

First I unbrace it, and lay a string(I use a single stand of bowstring with lead weights on either end), from tip to tip on the stave and check carefully to make sure that it indeed follows an accurate centerline and bisects the bow lengthwise. If there is an area with too much wood on one side, even less than a 16th of an inch in one spot, I correct it then. Make it as perfect as you can. Make sure the edges are flat, straight, smooth, perpendicular to the stave's back, and the width taper is accurate side to side. I'm pretty anal about width, width tapering, and thickness tapering. Even beyond limb twist, it just saves frustration and backtracking.

Does the string also accurately bisect the handle area? Just another alignment check. If the string is too far off center of the handle area, it can cause both limb tips to point thataway.

If not adequately seasoned, sometimes, left alone for a time, roughed in staves warp to the side as they finish drying, and warrant quickly double checking them again with the weighted string before work commences again. If they have warped due to further seasoning, and if already brought close to final dimensions, a heat correction may be the ticket.

Once all is well with those things, next I look to limb thickness accuracy. Most ANYone, unless quite aware and practiced, leans into a rasp, file, plane, spokeshave, scraper, sanding block, etc more on one side than the other as they work, which makes one side of the limb thinner than the other. It's easy to do, and after 20 years of this, I still have to be cognizant of this 'phenomenon'. This is a frequent cause, maybe the most frequent, of limb twist in wooden bows, so check the limbs up and down their lengths with a pair of outside calipers, digital calipers, mics, thickness gauge, whatever you have, to be certain that the limb, at any and EVERY point, is the same thickness across it's width. If not, carefully correct it now. A thin side is a weak side. Limb tips point to the weak side.

If all is well with the above and one or both limbs still point to the side, it could be inherent to the wood. Could be because of how it grew, but you still may be able to wrangle it into submission, or partial submission. Part of the joy of selfbow makin' :^)

If you left the tips wide enough up to this point(which you should have), you can deepen the string groove on the strong side and remove wood from the last few inches, just enough to correct limb shape, and this can help bring the limb into alignment. If you didn't leave it wide, you might be able to thin the strong side a little(just don't get too carried away or you can create other problems, like a hinge), or heat it and move it, or if it's not too bad, just leave it alone.

Many good shooting, long lasting selfbows aren't perfectly aligned. I once made a S shaped osage selfbow. Unstrung, it looked straight. Braced and drawn, the limbs twisted opposite ways. The top limb went left, the bottom limb went right. I shot the crap out of that thing. Shot good. But it drove me nuts, I couldn't stand to look at it, and I ultimately burned it in one of my culling frenzies :^)

Anyway, not trying to write a novel here... hope this helps a little.

From: RC
Date: 20-Feb-19

RC's embedded Photo



The side the string drifts towards is the weaker side. You need to remove wood from the side the string drifts away from. If in case that is the problem with your bow. Could be other factors too.

From: Dan Jones
Date: 20-Feb-19




Thank you to all who replied. The bow started as a 1x2 maple board from Home Depot. I found the center line with the length of B50 suspended between weights as directed and followed that as carefully as possible. The limbs are not twisted when the bow is unstrung or when strung with a long string but they twist in opposite directions when braced with a bowstring of the proper length. That would seem to me to suggest that the twist is, as Jeff Durnell says, inherent in the wood. There is more than a little twist at brace height, so I don't think that I'll put any more work into it.

From: RC
Date: 20-Feb-19




Are the edges of the limbs the same thickness on both sides?

From: badger
Date: 21-Feb-19




RC, you are correct I had it backwards! I do that all the time.

From: RC
Date: 21-Feb-19




No worries, Steve.

Print out the picture:)

From: Eric Krewson
Date: 21-Feb-19

Eric Krewson's embedded Photo



Sometimes the wood reduction removes the twist sometimes it doesn't, especially on osage.

I make sure the wood is the same depth side to side first, it that doesn't remove the twist I get out my heat gun, it always works.

Proper layout of your stave will usually prevent twisting. I mark a starting point at the fades and drop my taper 1/16" every 6" for the length of the limb and repeat the measurement on both limbs and both sides.

When I tiller a bow I make a point never to violate my layout lines on the sides of the limb. If I have too much poundage I drop the side lines 1/16" and bring the poundage down. I start too high and may redraw my lines two or three times to be sure I don't come in under poundage.

Here is an example;

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 21-Feb-19




I agree. It will twist towards the weak side. Remove wood from the other side. Nice drawing, RC. Jawge

From: Arvin
Date: 21-Feb-19




Good info . Follow this and you will figure it out quickly. Arvin

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 21-Feb-19




tiller the bow and shoot it,,, then see if you need to adjust,,

From: Dan Jones
Date: 22-Feb-19




I should have followed my intuition and tossed that bow in the trash. I deepened the string nock and removed some wood on the opposite side per the instructions. I got it to partial draw and it exploded in six pieces.(fortunately I escaped injury.) I work at a Home Depot and check the maple and red oak boards all the time and that board was about the best I've ever seen - straight board, straight grain the entire length and heavier than most. This will probably cure me of the urge to make bows for awhile!

From: BuzAL
Date: 22-Feb-19




Don't give up yet.

My first board-bow whip-wrapped it's string around my neck by the tips, while the middle third of both limbs gouged holes in the sheetrock.

Next attempt still shoots over twenty years later.

Best advice I can give- nothing I've read did better to teach "tillering" a bow than "Hunting the Osage Flatbow" by Dean Torges. He uses osage, and you should too. But his well-described method will work with all woods.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 22-Feb-19




Dan, I had many tries before I got a shooter. My site may help you. http://traditionalarchery101.com Jawge

From: Pa Steve
Date: 22-Feb-19




Dan, take the advice of the experienced selfbow bowyers on this site but Don Not give up!! The satisfaction gained from a sucessful build will far outweigh your minor failures. Take your time, pay attention to details and you will be sucessful. Good Luck....failure is not an option.

From: RC
Date: 22-Feb-19




George, I never realized ya finally got a shooter?

LOL

JK :)

Dan, I lost count of how many bows exploded on me...

Anymore I just laugh.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Feb-19




Yep, ol Roy knows how to blow em up. I saw one of Roy's bows explode like a stick of dynamite on my tillering tree once. A walnut selfbow. Remember that one buddy? Lol

I've had two blow up. A fully tillered yew bow that I overdried during the shooting in period, it blew up into a hundred pieces as I tried to brace it. That was one sweet lookong and shooting bow, holding 1 1/2" natural reflex. I really screwed up that time.

And an ornamental arborvitae selfbow I made during my early 'experimental phase'. I'd try to make a bow out of anything. First time I took it to full draw by hand, BANG! Shrapnel. Just the handle and fadeouts left in my hand... bowstring over my shoulder. Such excitement back in them days!

From: RC
Date: 22-Feb-19




LOL, yup I remember that explosion...

Then I duct taped it back together and we took a group picture...

Those were fun days in your shop dude..

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Feb-19




Yeah they were. Good times.





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