Interested in moving from carbon to 11/32" cedar wood arrows. How much can I expect to lose in arrow speed (roughly)? I shoot a 60" 50#@28 (I draw 29) bear hunter takedown recurve circa mid-90s. I'm looking for general effect of wood instead of carbon. Total arrow weight now is 430g. Kind of like the idea that a fast flight string adds approx 10fps. That kind of info. Many thanks.

It will do the same as any carbon arrow will do, and you won't be able to tell the difference unless you have a chrony.

Bob

In the last several years I have dabbled with tapered wood, aluminum, and carbon shafts. Shooting them all together at @20 yards they all cluster, at 30 the woods tend to hit a bit lower, at 40 the carbons are still right on but the other two are a tad lower. This with the same elevation or "aim". The loss of speed is roughly 10-15 fps from wood to carbon, in my axperience and totally unscientific testing.

Do your job and tune them correctly and use the same fletching, you will need a chronograph to tell the difference, like Bob said. Only difference would be if you add a lot of weight like using a hickory shaft instead of cedar.

Ok, so less than what a fast flight string does over b50? Because even my nubie trad eyes can definitely tell without a chrono what FF does.

It’s only the arrow weight that makes a difference, not the shaft material.

MP

You may think you have lost some speed of your arrows fall short at say 40 yards. But they shouldn’t if they weight the same. You may see a slight drop as wood arrows are bigger causing some resistance. I use both and at reasonable ranges I see no difference in flight or impact.

got it. weight difference is the issue. thanks guys.

My point on with 27" bop arrows is 52 to 57 yards with my current go to bows. My carbons are my heaviest arrows 605 grains, also 27" bop, versus 538 to 545 grains with the Surewoods and the 1918s, the point on with those is less than with my wood or aluminum arrows, but not by as much as one would think, just a few yards. How clean an arrow comes out of your bow and the feather shape and size will effect down range arrow speed as well. I wouldn't over think it. Just make sure that you are not getting a wood arrow banging off of your bow on release and that it flies stable.

Follow on the the above. I had all my arrows weighing within 5-10 grains.

Oh yes, one more thing, people like to start at full length with carbons, pI would suggest to give yourself just enough room for finger clearance with a broached and use the shortest possible length shaft you can. Let the arrow shaft supplier like Wapiti or Surewood advise you on the proper spine with which head weight at a conservative arrow length. Playing with full length carbons and full length wood arrows is not the same.

very helpful dean thanks.

"Weight difference is the issue."

Well, okay, as long as fletching is the same, balance is about the same, nock tension is the same, and diameter isn't too different.

A skinny shaft has less surface area/drag. So all else being equal, a 9/32 carbon will maybe gain a tiny bit over an 11/32 woodie.

I've noticed a lot of wood arrow shooters like big 5" banana fletch, carbon shooters are more likely to shoot 4" parabolics.

I guess what I'm saying is that you could get a decent scientific paper out of isolating each possible factor. ;-)

TW -

Unless to go to extremes, the ONLY factor in initial speed is weight, and for that matter down range speed, again without going to extremes, isn't affected that much either by anything else.

Dana -

A scientific paper isn't necessary, shoot at 70 meters for awhile and you'll see what matters and what doesn't.

Viper out.

broached equals broad heads, damn spell check. When i use the voice typer it cannot hear the space between broad and head. Of course, I was also taking pictures of an albino house finch on my feeder at the same time. Multitasking don't cha know.

Main difference is weight. Arrow flex an fletching play into it as well. Maybe I can to my doctoral thesis on this???

It depends upon total arrow mass, not so much concerning the material. Also depending upon the distance shot and the magnitude of the weight difference it may or may make an easily perceptible difference.

I do a lot of casting comparisons between cedar and carbons. Typically if a bow will shoot 23/64" cedars 200 yd., it will shoot feather-fletched Gold Tips of the same weight about 215 yd.. I also think the farther an arrow flies, the more important drag becomes and the less important weight becomes.

As others have said, if the wood weighs the same as the carbon, the speed will be about identical.

However, it's going to be very hared for you to construct a 11/32 shaft of at least 30 inches BOP to accommodate your 29-inch draw length that will equal 430 grains. Much more likely to come in closer to 525 to 550 grains or more. Thus, you are likely to loose a fair amount of speed by switching to wood.

FWIW, I also will sometimes test low-stretch strings against Dacron, using the same bow, same arrows, and all in the same session. Here's the results with a Brackenbury Quest, alternating a Fury string with a B-50. The Fury distance is always first in the parentheses:

GT trad hunter carbons 535-gr. (205, 200)

cedars 575-gr. (190.5, 184)

GT heavy hunters carbons 550-gr. (215, 209)

4-fletch cedars 565-gr. (187, 180)

As you can see, the effects of a long flight pretty much neutralize whatever speed advantage the FF shot started out with; the difference in total cast distance is usually only 2-5%.

Again, this was all one session, using the same bow to shoot four different style shafts, and using two different strings. The last two arrow types give you a good idea of how drag comes into play, with those dense but skinny Heavy Hunters out-flying the 4-fletched cedars by almost 30 yards.

Orion: this is exactly what I’ve realized. Thanks very much. To hunt elk, I think I will be better off at 525-530 grains anyways but like to maximize speed somewhat so thought maybe I could put a good arrow together around 450. Not sure it will matter either way to get the job done but something to think about and debate I guess.

What falls faster a pound of rocks or a pound of feathers, this would get Sir Isac Newton frustrated.

I shoot carbons but hunt with woods and it causes death.

dean - Albino Finch, that's cool... What species, you know?

I never tested thru a chrono, but i wonder if the fast reaction of the carbon shaft might give it a few feet more per second down range, not that would make a difference in accuracy.

Same weight..same speed. Wood, Bamboo, Fiberglass, Aluminum, Carbon Composites...same weight same speed.

Carbon arrows of a given spine are much lighter than wooden or aluminum ones. This is useful from compound bows which can cast them very fast. With recurves and especially longbows the longer limbs can only go so fast so light arrows produce less advantage.

With recurves and longbows the heavier aluminum and wooden arrows are a more natural match. Carbons often require a lot of point weight and overall weight to tune well, which slows them down near aluminum and wood speeds.

Aluminum and wood shafts are easier to tune as many point weights are available and the shafts can be trimmed for length with simple hand tools. - lbg

cedar smells better than carbon.

Diameter could have some very small influence on speed/trajectory.Especially on downrange longer shots as thier would probably be less drag on a skinny carbon with less surface area vs a 11/32 or 23-64 wood shaft.

Throw a ping-pong ball and a golf ball into a sbow bank at the same speed. The golf hall will penetrate deeper due to a heavier weight. Of course you'll lose speed,very slightly,using a cedar shaft seeing as how wood weighs more than carbon. But your bow will be more efficient wore a slightly heavier arrow. You being concerned about speed loss sounds like the compound crowd mentality- the faster the better. It ain't all about speed. Look at the plains Indians or any Indian archers. Think they were concerned about speed? Good to see you're contemplating wood arrows. Carbons are not the be-all end-all holy grail of arrows.

Oh no....the golf ball thing appears again. A golf ball penetrates snow pretty easily, not so much a deer. Use proper context when trying to be analogous. Weight and feather surface will affect speed...that's about it. Deer are easy to penetrate and kill so if your concerned about that then don't be. I think if you started to count right now, you would be dead before you could count the pieces of game taken with wood arrows in the time man has been on the earth.

One other difference. With wood arrows there is roughly an inch of taper in the glue on point. So if you have a 32 inch shaft you will only be able to have a 31 arrow to back of point. You have to take that into consideration when cutting your shafts. When you are buying wood shafts they are based on a 28inch arrow (though spined at 26") when you are buying your shafts spined at 50-55 as an example. An inch of arrow length is roughly 5#'s in spine. So a 27" arrow (to back of point) would roughly make them 55-60 spine, a 29" arrow will roughly make them 45-50 spine to back of point. This is not exact it can vary buy a pound or 2, but it is a good guidance when figuring out what shafts to buy. DANNY

The main difference will be the weight. Your wood arrows will be heavier period and you will lose speed.

There might actually be a bit more speed scrubbed off while a woodie settles out in flight, but are we talking about x-ring accuracy, or minute-of-ribcage?

At the distances where most of us like to take a hunting shot, I think penetration would be more affected by tune than by velocity...

Carbon recovers from paradox much faster than wood or aluminum so may not lose as much. You could see it in a number on a chrono or at 70m which seems to be a strutting point for some, but for the average to well above average guy, shoot whatever floats your boat the highest.

Ok...3 cars going full speed of 100 mph. 1 weights 2,500 lbs. 2 weights 3,000 lbs, 3 weights 3,500 lbs...which one is faster? Same question same answer.

I shoot 11/32 wood arrows when shooting 3D and there is a LB wood category. Other times I shoot 600 spine carbon arrows both cut at 28" BOP. It is possible to get the weight of the carbon and the wood are in close proximity if you search for lighter wood shafts. I have some wood arrows that are 50 spine, 100 grn pts that are 420-430 gns. They shoot very similar to the carbon arrows.

Ok...3 cars going full speed of 100 mph. 1 weights 2,500 lbs. 2 weights 3,000 lbs, 3 weights 3,500 lbs...which one is faster? Same question same answer.

That makes zero sense, I won't even talk to you about that. I guess as long as it'll go 17.3 yards it's good to go anyway

I laugh my ass off reading some of these threads..

The coefficient of comparative speed is found by negating the difference in mass2 x barometric pressure at relevant altitude. You have to have a perfect release too. ;-)

It's raining here, from the looks of things here, it's raining or snowing in a lot of places. After a week of rain I put on my raingear and went out and shot for an hour today. Try it, it's better than some other things.

you wont loose much speed,, might gain some if the arrow is lighter,, Im pretty sure most of the flight shooters use wood,, and they hit speeds that are amazing,, and shoot far,, about the Native Archers,, I dont think they thought about speed as much as they liked to be able to shoot through buffalo,,,so they just had a different mind set,,,Im just guessing though,,

Native archers didn't shoot through Buffalo, on average their draw weight was 30-35#. They stuck them up as much as they could and waited them out or more often stampeded them over a cliff in a buffalo jump. It was all about eating and staying alive, whatever worked with the least injury and loss of manpower.

I have read in many different text,, says they shot through buffalo,sometimes killing the calf on the other side,,, just because you read it doesnt make it true,,,, all bows were not 35,,, museum bows prove that,, some bows were in the 70# range,, nobody really knows what the average was,, the bows we have today ,, are just a small small sample of the bows that existed,, since i have shot through a buffalo with a native style bow,, I would have to say they did the same,,, but have not seen it with my own eyes ,, so I can only speculate with the info I have studied in the last 30 years,,,, I think if you do more reading and study more text you will find ,, there were very powerful war bows,, killing horses when the spanish were waring with them,,etc etc,, accounts of arrows pearcing armor etc,, maybe not all true,, but I think the 35 # myth,, is not that correct,,

this is from a book called Native American Bows,,, Missouri Archaeological Society,, special publication No 5,,, Sioux experts in the use of the bow and arrow were,, Stone, Holly Horse,Brave Buffalo, Iron Bull, Sharp Horn Bull- to name only an outstanding few. Four Horns, Black Foot tribe, Montana, killed seven mature buffalo with seven arrows. Some of the arrows went entirely through the buffalo.

Ok it does not state the poundage of the bow,, maybe he was shooting a 35# bow,, even in Jim Hamm's books he gives accounts of very powerful bows,, in the 70# range,, I know Jim personally and he collected information from musuems all across the country for his books,,

sorry if thats a bit off topic,, but I am sure they were using wood arrows as well,,

Well Brad, how does that stack up to three 100 mph cars of different weight and other seemingly impertinent facts? When most of you couldn't hit a barn wall from the inside.

Weight is weight and force is force. all things being equal a pound of anything falls at the same rait. You might lose a little initial speed if the arrows (Carbon/Wood) mass weight is the same because of Carbons being small like stir sticks. Never worried about speed when I quit shooting wheely bows many years ago.

David...

My understanding is that once Native Americans had the horse, the average shot at a buffalo was taken from about 2 yards away. I like those odds for a pass-through.

I find that with outside of center longbows, that I have a much easier time getting perfect arrow flight with wood and also have a wider spine tolerance. I have tried to help a couple guys that went from recurves to longbows and wanted to use carbons. Full length arrows and back quivers is a clumsy combination. After jumping through hoops and doing all kinds of changes and experimenting together clean flight with the carbons, both of these guys went to wood simply because a shorter wood arrow was more forgiving for their shooting and easier to use with the Hill equipment.

It will do the same as any carbon arrow will do, and you won't be able to tell the difference unless you have a chrony.

Sorry but I don't need a Chrono unless I wan't to see the variance between arrows.

If I am shooting woods and carbons and alum. I can see the variance I just can't measure it.

Anyone else possibly see it also?

Just like a tug boat string and a skinny string you can see the performance increase with skinny string at least I can.

Hey if ya don't hit your target speed is irrelevant really My footed woodies serve me well You can build fast wood arrows but consistancy for accuracy is far more important for me.My flight arrows have special characteristics and would shoot pretty fast .They serve no real practical purpose but distance .I get far more pleasure hitting the mark than shooting for distance .Hand made laminated bamboo seems to be one of the best in flight shooting but I may be wrong on that point OSR

Beg to differ, Mr. Scott of Owl bows once told a story of plains Native Americans shooting thru both the calf and mother buffalo with rawhide backed bow.

I'm not very scientific, I do however posses a fair amount of common sense.

The common sense approach tells me what makes the difference in speed is this.

well tuned and properly spined arrows Shaft weight

Straightness

and diameter. (I doubt diameter makes much difference in all at hunting ranges)

I also noticed they both tend to zip through deer equally well. provided all the above are in order.

IF the arrows in question are of equal weight, diameter, fletching and foc, I can't see where 'material' would have much impact on velocity.

The idea that rate of recovery from paradox affects arrow velocity, well, who has done an actual study on that? I'd guess that might make a tiny difference at long range, but I lack facts.

When I switched from wood to carbon it I saw the difference when I shoot a deer. My wood arrows always stayed in the animal. My carbons almost always go through and stick in the ground.

At our fun night for our trad 3-d league one of our members had a chrono set up. The results were very interesting. I shot four different arrows out of my 45# Caribow, a 400 gr carbon, a 500 gr cedar, a 600 gr doug fir, a 797 gr compressed fir. Results, carbon 190 fps, 500 gr cedar 177fps, 600 gr doug fir 171 fps, compressed 164 fps. The big difference was down range.The carbon out performed every arrow by a huge margin. Arrows were 30 1/4 long 65-70 spine with 3- 5" feathers.

How do you mean they out preformed? The carbon didn't hit as low with the same sight picture? "IF" that is the case that what did you expect, heavier arrow has more drop over the same distance with the same sight picture out of the same bow. If you are saying they didn't penetrate as deep into the target. Targets are meant to stop arrows with friction, carbon has a slicker smoother surface than wood, harder for target material to stop because of that. Live animal bodies aren't designed to stop an arrow with a broadhead. DANNY

The bow drawn to the same distance transmits the same energy to every equally spined arrow regardless of weight or material. If you have two arrows of equal spine shot exactly the same from the same bow the difference in velocity can be calculated using the formula (1/2)(M)(V)(V)= KE Ex: If you chronograph your bow w/a 300 grain arrow (carbonor whatever) & it shoots at 200 fps. you can calculate the theoretical KE your bow generates. Substituting weight for mass (proportionally almost the same if we assume that both arrows are of nearly the same diameter & length)The bow's KE is 1/2 x 300 x 200 x 200=6,000,000 (units) This will not change as long as your bow (including string & brace height) doesn't change. Knowing your bow's KE potential you can calculate the theoretical velocity of any other arrow of equal spine from this particular bow. To calculate velocity of a 500 grain (wood or any other material) arrow from the same bow example shown above: 1/2(500)(V)(V)=6,000,000 (V)(V)=24,000 therefore V=155 fps Penetration depends on Momentum & that is a different story. Momentum is Mass X Velocity Therefore if you wanted to compare the penetration potential of each of the two arrow samples: 300 grain arrow: 300 gr X 200 fps=60,000 500 grain arrow: 500 gr X 155 fps=77,500 Therefore the slower but heavier 500 grain arrow would have approximately 29% greater penetration potential than the other.

line cutter, faster and flater.

Normal whitetail range I wouldn’t feel handicapped with wood though because most setups would be quieter with wood. Pluses and minuses with both. Shoot whatcha like. The big reason to shoot carbon is durability. That’s it.

I don't recall the name of the book, but years go I was reading about an early encounter between whites and a Native American tribe which I think was in what is now Florida. The author said that none of his party were able to draw the natïve bows. So whatever poundage is was, it wasn't thirty five:) JayInOz

I hear some talk about weight of arrows, my testing above with wood, aluminum and carbons had all the arrows weighing within 5-7 grains. So I took the weight issue out of the equation.

Wudtsix, how about fletching, foc and diameter? To properly test one variable you have to eliminate -all- others.

"Ceteris paribus"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus

I threw a ping pong ball and a golf ball at a deer from my treestand once as a test. Neither one penetrated the skin.

Approximately 23.25% of whatever the original speed of the bow/arrow combination was when you measured it last.

A golf ball is about 20 times heavier than a ping pong ball. Does any shoot wood arrows 20 time heavier than a carbon one?

Ah, the momentum of wood. Has anyone spoken of spriatual momentum? The wood arrow is and has been the missile of life for folks who hunt to survive. For eons the wooden shaft has flown and struck with lethal effect, thus building a spiratual mass and energy without equal. All else is the stuff of toys. Get serious, get wood.

Beam us up Scotty, there is no intelligent life on this planet. )

When someone states that their wood arrows always stay in the animal and the carbons pass through, I wonder how bad the wood arrows were flying. We get pass throughs almost 100% of the time with any type of arrow on Iowa deer. Like the rich guy, with his wobbly 800 grain carbon arrows, heavy takedown ILF recurve, and his 24" release that he calls his 30" draw, that always tries to take over a public area, said to my wife after she shot a wood arrow through a deer, "I don't get pass throughs and you don't either." People that cannot figure out how to get a wood arrow to fly good enough should just stick with what works for them and leave all of that nice wood for those of us who can.

Dean - you are welcome to mine;^)

Several wood shafts out there with varying weights. Get some tapered shafts fletched with 5" 3 fletch and a one or so with 4" 4 fletch and shoot them. I would pair a 125 gr point on the arrow and try a few different species of wood. Some archery suppliers and arrow makers have test packages of arrows. You can mess around with diameters and spine weights at your draw length to find ones that fly just as well as your carbons did.

Dean, as I said earlier, you can only compare likes to likes. A wood arrow with a glued-on 'hand sharpened' broadhead vs a carbon with a factory-sharp head?

There are so many possible diffeences there as to render comparison pointless.

Gotta be more than just shaft material or weights for sure. As said above, could do a pretty good study on it since there are lots of interesting variables. It would take several years of data collection. A few varibles would be feather length or very short vs long lengths for feathers and vanes, vane or feather material, feather design and fletching style, points and inserts, shaft lengths and shaft weights, shaft material and friction occuring by outer covering, temperature and humidity effects, draw length difference with the same test bow, effects of human error when releasing, and a whole lot more including what level of confidence (percent) you would want to do any analysis to reduce experimental noise. Would need the help of a good statistics expert to set everything up and to assist with the data.

Smaller diameter when you are comparison shooting will mean the arrow is not as high on the rest.

Weight is pretty much all that matters to initial speed, all else equal, but trajectory can vary with many factors, like FOC.

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