Tuning shouldn't be process that causes one to need therapy; however, arrow flight should be a top consideration on any bow. Fact is, tuning isn't as hard to do as many would want you to believe if you actually understand how spine works and where to start. There are those though that think they are geniuses because they can tune a simple bow and arrow. So yeah...tuning is important, but it's not cellular biology either.

Agree to a certain degree8-). That is if you are only shooting target points, put a broadhead on that poorly tuned arrow and ya got trouble. But to your point, I have some bows that I can put a 600,500,400 spine arrow plus a cedar in the same spot from the same bow, but none of them might shoot a broadhead well.

Dad Gum it Chris, now you've done it !!! LOL

Actually I agree (mostly), but I'm a tuner to the endth degree, or as close as I can get to it.

However, the "primary reason" for my tuning is so I can shoot the arrow combination I want to shoot.

Rick

There's a law in archery that no one has ever disproven to me - what you gain on one side of the fence you loose on the other side. Well, lets use it for this argument.

I would agree with the "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form... And if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant." And to prove the point I would use target archers using a 2512 and 35 pounds to punch a hole in the blue face.

BUT here's where I totally disagree, a broadhead hitting an animal sideways ain't going to work. AND any idiot using impacts can tune an arrow to go straight.

Adcock in his original 'impact' document stated something about if you can't shoot still tune with impacts and you're arrow will fly straight. Those are far from the exact words.

Tuning is pretty damned important even on the 17.3 accuracy site.

I'm fairly certain my tuning style is similar to the Lakota plains tribes :^)

In all honesty, I've never been really too concerned about it which is surprising, because my wife says when I undertake a new endeavor I'm the most OCD person...EVER! Lol. Guess I can't really disagree...

A wise man once told me, "As long as the pointy end gets there ahead of the feathered end, yer good to go."

Now, I'll admit that may be a bit over simplified, but honestly...I'm not that far off.

But...I think after several decades at this, and being a long standing fan of aluminum arrows, I've got a fair idea of what'll work with whatever bow I'm toying with.

My broadheads fly and hit with my field points...I'm good. But I AM very aware of form and technique whenever I shoot.

Yeah I think I will take a tuned setup over a non-tuned setup any day. It's just a much more enjoyable experience if nothing else and it's just not that hard to do. Regards

So far I have gathered from above posts, form, good, bad, or indifferent needs to be consistent. Tuning can then be accomplished? OK, I can sort of buy into that as we may have physical differences that keep us from “perfect” form like the target archers strive for.

If your form is good, then the arrow will hit at the same place on a consistent basis. The problem is that if you aren't tuned, that point may not be where your looking.

Long time between hunting seasons. Anything to keep a bow in your hand during the offseason is a good thing. Tuning an arrow/point to a bow is easy and something to keep you busy for a few days or so. Tuning is shooting and paying close attention to how you are shooting. Good things. The only downside to tuning I can fathom is the added expense of having different shafts, points, broadheads, and such on hand to tinker with. My children pay for all of this out of their future inheritance. Dark and cold Interior Alaska winters are ideal for such things as fly tying and arrow tuning. I'm a believer in tuning.

Well, I’ll tell ya...

I’ve got a nasty habit of scrounging up arrows with spines of “somewhere within a reasonable ball park” and just using those as they come and go. Turnover can get pretty high when you’re hucking a lot of 40-60 yard shots around the 3D course!

But I did manage to get enough help around here to figure out bare-shafting out to about 20 yards.

And here’s what I’ve found (don’t wanna shock anybody, but here goes!):

1) Matched arrows group a lot tighter than arrows that are all over the map for weight, length and spine.

2) Matched arrows of the CORRECT spine group a lot tighter (for me) than matched arrows that are of the wrong spine.

When all you’re trying to do is hit the 8-ring on a deer-sized target from random (short) distances, you probably don’t notice it much; but if you were to plant yourself on the 20-yard line and shoot a few dozen, the lightbulb might come on.

Seems to me that improperly-spined arrows are more critical of my release than arrows that are pretty near dead nuts in bare-shaft testing.

And I’d go so far as to say that if 100 “Trad” Archers were to shoot 20 arrows at 20 yards with arrows that were matched and tuned, and another 20 that were matched, but #15 off in spine, and the final 20 using the dog’s breakfast mix of arrows that I usually shoot, we’d have a number of people discovering that they’re much better shots than they had realized... and probably at least as many discovering that they’re not nearly as good as they had thought.

I tend to agree with you LT. I've mostly made do with an arrow/ broadhead I wanted to use,not necessarily the correct one. That arrow got used in whatever bow I used even too shooting out of selfbows I made. Heading the other direction last couple years trying to match them up better.

An archer can only tune as good as his ability allows. Once the bow and arrows are tuned the best to you,your done. Improvement can only further increase with solid practice,good form and good coaching.

LT I agree with what you said but the wisdom of George,Rick,Bowmania,and JusPassing can not be denied. Un tuned arrows will hit in the same place from a Hooter Shooter but where? It hurts penetration if the broadhead don't hit square. It takes too much fletching at the expense of speed and penetration to correct the error. Other wise folks are right. Tuning is a waste of time and bare shafting has no benefit. Just use 5 1/2" fletches or go to 4 maybe 6 fletch. If tuning gives you a headache. Now I will probably be quoted that tuning is a waste of time Ha, >>>---> Ken

-And if you can't play the guitar it isn't going to help even if you tune it to perfection. But if you can play, it will sound like crap if it's out of tune.

:)

Anyone ever notice, in museum displays of natives' weapons, that their arrows may be of different lengths? Ever wonder why?

“Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form... And if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant"

ALERT, ALERT, ALERT, FAKE NEWS!!!!! LOL

I call bull on this statement all day long and twice on Sunday.

Lets go shoot broadheads from an untuned setup and see what happens. One could get lucky every now and then but not real likely with all of the variables added in.

I like to keep a bare shaft in my quiver for a form check for myself. Shooting an untuned setup the bare shaft could easily end up in the neighbors yard.

I think I'll keep tuning but thanks for a very interesting post that will only get more interesting :)

You all need to get tuned up. We all stand in 2 lines and run you through the gauntlet. See how ya do.LOL

That's what the indians did. Need to get back to a grass roots.

Lets open the can of worms then. I believe in what Jim Ploen said: when your string is pushing the arrow toward the target, tuning is not something to lose your sleep on. When the string is pushing the arrow around the riser, tuning can become a pain in the b*tt. The first situation was solved by the ancient archers by using a shooting sequence that is moving the bow (hand) away from the arrow path right after release - that's the reason the arrow is shot from the right side of the bow(for a right hand archer), the bow hand goes away as body natural reaction. Who thinks the army/king/etc was providing arrows tuned for each archer draw weight, that person might need to think again. When archery was no more driven by war urgency and availability, the shooting sequence changed and evolved toward the second direction: shooting the arrow around the riser. The entire evolution of the bow speaks about this: the "easiest" to tune bows are the bows but past center. Based on these, tuning is important but how someone shoots will be the cornerstone of it.

Most archers need to improve both their shooting form as well as tuning their arrow to their bow. Both are important. Shooting an arrow at a hay bale and calling it "good enough" is not "good enough" in my opinion. Put on a broadhead, go shooting on a rainy and/or windy day, and "good enough" won't cut it.

Well alot of those that don't tune never practice with a broadhead or are willing to dull a new $$ broadhead. But I also agree with out some consistant form tuning won't work. I've had some set ups that shoulda worked, but.....

'I believe a lot of Archers would be better off improving their shot than worrying about tuning to the 9th degree. I find a heavy arrow that flies straight & I’m done period. The rest is becoming as accurate & deadly as I can with that set up.' Maybe you are asking if archers should spend their shooting time tuning or developing form? I think an archer needs both.

I have bareshaft tuned a bunch of bows so it only takes me one or two shooting sessions to dial them in.(1) After that, I have confidence in my bow and arrow combination and forget about tuning. I concentrate on developing my shooting form. Our emphasis on form is similar, but maybe I put more emphasis on tuning. We are looking for the same results, Happy Shooting.

(1) OK, there was one bow that gave me fits. It was short and curvy and aggressive. I've got a couple of pages of notes about what I had to do to get good arrow flight. Now that my form is better, I'd bet that I could bring in a rascal like that a lot sooner. Hey, we're back to form again...

I tune my wood arrows to where I can shoot a group so tight it looks like one big arrow bareshaft at 15 yards. anything further away at age 72, arthritis, vision going I can't hit too much.

My form is excellent according too many wallers who have seen it.

I noticed that Howard Hill says the back of the arrow point should never go beyond 3/4 of an inch past your first finger. I often wonder why it would make any difference as long as the arrow is tuned ,,,,RIGHT!!!!!.....Wrong!!

For the very first time I cut my arrow to 28.5 to BOP and had to use a 190gr point to correct the spine. (my draw is 27.75)

The very first time I shot this arrow was at 21 yards (as I mentioned I can't hit crap past 15 yards) I put that arrow in the center of a 1.5 inch circle, I pulled the arrow several times and proceeded to put that arrow in or very near the center, I have never done this, I can't believe the length of the arrow would make that much difference, but it did, I made up two more arrows and proceeded to shoot them at 20 yards and placed them within a 2 inch circle, I was so excited that I got careless with my shooting and I thought, oh well that didn't last, then I slowed down, concentrated and duplicated what I have spent my life dreaming and hoping someday I could shoot like.

All I did was cut this arrow 1.5 inches shorter and tuned it to the bow and it made one heck of a difference.

I guess Howard knew more than a lot of folks gave him credit for.

I'm going for 40 yards next, not sure a 40lb bow will do much that far.

Well I did my part to start the argument rolling...Ha!Ha!

I will stick with tuning. That broadhead on the front of that arrow will show an un-tuned setup right away.

For me, I take my bow, I get it set up with as heavy arrow as I can. I get the bow tuned to where it is quiet. Then I take a bare shaft (spined for the bow). I will bareshaft tune it with field points until it flies perfect into the target. I then put on feathers and broadheads. I go back out, shoot it, and fine tune the string or nock point. That's it I am done!! I do this with wood and carbon arrows, then no matter what, I know exactly what shaft and length. After this if I miss or mess shot up, it's all me. I do mark/wrap each shaft with brace height, so at a glance I know I am good.

Didn't mean to short change anyone. Several must have been typing at the same time and very good post's since then. Great discussion. Happy shooting guys and have a Merry Christmas Season. >>>-----> Ken

In all of my years shooting bows, I have found that if you get the right arrow for a bow, it does't take much tuning. I have shot mostly Easton aluminum, 2016s, 2018s, 2020s, 2117s, and 2219s from recurves ranging in draw weights from low 40s to 60 lb, always managed to get perfect arrow flite.

Tuning with full length carbons has lots of variables. Tuning for me and my ASLs not so many. My arrows are going to be 27" bop, period, my nocking point is going to be within 1/8" to 3/16" up from center, (tapered woods versus 1918s), My shaft coach will be a fletched arrow with the selected broad head, one spine range up to one spine range down, The variable is the minor adjustment to brace height and that's it. Works every time. Now if I had to make full length cedars and a what ever point weight for someone else, I can hear the theme music of Mission Impossible playing in the background. I like making arrows for local trad shooters, I have yet to have one of them tell me the truth on what their draw length is. I must have them in my backyard shooting for me to check them for consistency and get their bows to a more normal setting, then it is just a matter of trying out various test arrows that i have. Do a little minor tuning of the bow and the shooter, pick the correct test arrow and I can build a dozen arrows and get it right every time.

The more I think of this the less I agree with LT. I think a poor shooter shooting a properly tuned arrow will decrease his poor shots more than a pro.

Hear me out. Let's take 20 yards and a blue face target, a guy who shoots an 18 inch group around the bullseye, with a poorly tuned arrow. Five arrows. I have him shoot 5 bare shafts that are way too stiff. He's right handed and shoots them,

When we look at the bare shafts, they are also in an 18 inch group to the left of the bare shafts. And I don't think that we'd be stretching the truth by saying one of the bare shafts is real close to one of the fletched shafts. We are talking about a group of both fletched and bare arrows that's 3 feet left to right.

Now, we do something to his arrows - increase point weight and move the bare shafts to the right - 18 inches - well not 18 inches, but a group of 18 inches over the bullseye. He's tuned the best of his ability. If he shoots 5 fletched they's still be 18 inches around the bull, but the bare shaft will also be 18 inches wide, but amongst the fletched.

Now, with arrows tuned the best of his ability he shoots 5 fletched arrows at the blue face. The group will be better than 18 inches because he has the feathers correcting his mistakes. And an arrow that flys straigth is going to have less wind resistance, there for it will not swerve off course as much as a stiff or weak arrow.

The flaw in this reasoning is that if he realistically shoots an 18 inch group with bare shafts, his group with fletched will be smaller, because the fletching is correcting mistakes. The very reason we should practice with bare shafts - you want to see your mistakes when you're practicing.

Although that's a flaw I believe the example still hold merrit.

Bowmania

I personally do not feel you can practice good form with a setup that is not tuned. A lot of years back before I understood the art of tuning I became very frustrated. I was tweaking my form in all kinds of ways to achieve the accuracy I wanted. I gave up for a period of time. I returned again with more knowledge and understanding and found that a well tuned setup better provided me with the opportunity to effectively work on my form. I now really enjoy shooting a finely tuned bow because if I am off, I look at and have fun trying to improve my shot knowing my setup will do it if I will.

Ever tried a 20/30/40/50/60yd walk-back with poorly matched arrows off an ill-tuned bow?

Besides...nothing says "I'm A Rookie" louder than the "WHACK!" of stiff shafts off a riser wall.

enjoy your arguement folks.

Ditto, Barebow......Ha!Ha!

I think tuning is very important.

I shoot self bows and self arrows all of which I make myself including the shafts or harvest from nature. Sometimes I have to tune each arrow to the bow.

I tune the fletched shaft. Basically, all I want to see is the back of the fleeting as the arrow flies to the mark.

Jawge

I think there is tuning and TUNING. First one requires minimum knowledge and no headaches - find an arrow to fly good from your bow. The second happens when you want to get the best from your combo - and here a big part is played by archer’s skills and shooting distance.

My Brother Draven nailed it. 8^)

When I was coaching, I just got my students arrows where they would go fairly well down range, and let them shoot.

Once they started showing some advancement/improvement, then I would work on their tune a little more, BUT I did the tuning for them with no explanation, because I didn't want to clutter their heads up with stuff they didn't need for the moment.

Eventually, there would be those who I would start showing, and explaining tuning to, but only little bits at a time, until they got a good grasp of it, and could do it for themselves.

Rick

I grab a handful of different "best guess" arrows from the barrel in my garage and find one or two options that shoot nice. Maybe tweak my nock point a bit if needed. Fill the quiver and go afield.

With Stringwalking I'm only really shooting 1-2 distances in tune (30-35y), all my other crawls are out of tune, it's amazing how the top guys shoot such awesome scores with this technique.

I can shoot 35/55, 55/75 both from just about every bow I own, and I can vary point weight quite a bit, and at hunting ranges 0-30 yards I see very little change to point of impact. The biggest weakness in my accuracy consistency is not spine - it's the guy holding the bow.

****Well, I’ll tell ya... I’ve got a nasty habit of scrounging up arrows with spines of “somewhere within a reasonable ball park” and just using those as they come and go. Turnover can get pretty high when you’re hucking a lot of 40-60 yard shots around the 3D course!

But I did manage to get enough help around here to figure out bare-shafting out to about 20 yards.

And here’s what I’ve found (don’t wanna shock anybody, but here goes!):

1) Matched arrows group a lot tighter than arrows that are all over the map for weight, length and spine.

2) Matched arrows of the CORRECT spine group a lot tighter (for me) than matched arrows that are of the wrong spine.

When all you’re trying to do is hit the 8-ring on a deer-sized target from random (short) distances, you probably don’t notice it much; but if you were to plant yourself on the 20- yard line and shoot a few dozen, the lightbulb might come on.

Seems to me that improperly-spined arrows are more critical of my release than arrows that are pretty near dead nuts in bare- shaft testing.

And I’d go so far as to say that if 100 “Trad” Archers were to shoot 20 arrows at 20 yards with arrows that were matched and tuned, and another 20 that were matched, but #15 off in spine, and the final 20 using the dog’s breakfast mix of arrows that I usually shoot, we’d have a number of people discovering that they’re much better shots than they had realized... and probably at least as many discovering that they’re not nearly as good as they had thought.*****

GF nails it right here.

Pellerite steps to the plate....aaannnndddd ....It's a swing and a miss.

First off remember he shoots with a sight. I'm not even sure he has ANY experience shooting non-sight.

Regardless of HOW any of us shoot, tuning assists with aiming without a sight in that when you're tuned, it assists with keeping the arrow tracking your line of sight, from eyeball to target (paper or 3D or live animal).

Tuning also assists a great deal in forgiveness of shooter error. I doubt if anybody here is an actual plastic and steel and electronic robot.

Generally making blanket statements is setting yourself up for looking foolish.

Oh and don't forget, "Consistency isn't a virtue if you're a screw up."

Tuning ,and form go hand in hand.Period.

No tuning is not necessary if you can't shoot or reach anchor. It is not necessary if you don't want to improve. Try to walk up and switch arrows with any guy stepping to the shooting line in serious competition. Explain to him or her tuning makes no difference and they should be able to shoot any arrow. After all it is all just form. You will rarely even see different colors of shafts or fletching in their quiver,much less different brands,spines,or lengths. HUMmmmmm.>>>>-----> Ken

LT is right on, a lot of archers are to worried about tuning, how fast their bow is and such. The most important part of archery is the human element, if you don’t have a very repeatable sequence there is absolutely no way your going to be a consistently good shot. I don’t paper tune or bare shaft, if the broadheads are flying with the field points in the bull, I’m happy, but I’m constantly working on form. If you can’t group arrows how do you tune, you must have a very repeatable shot sequence before you can tune.

Tuning will never ever make up for being able to execute a shot consistently. Tuning won't even help cover up the flaws in not being able to execute a shot consistently.

You can hope it will, and you can dream that it will.....but it won't.

And I have no idea what the fact that Pellerite shoots with a sight has to do with anything.

Nicely put Ken!

You can twiddle your sight to account for the arrow not tracking line of sight. THAT is why it matters.

Bender....you realize that you can do exactly the same thing by moving your head left or right or moving the point of the arrow left or right correct?

Tuning won't fix a crappy shot.

Context is key.

If you're shooting field points on fletched shafts you can shoot pretty good with a lousy bow/arrow match.

I have a 15# root recurve and, at close range, I can shoot tight little group with 29" 2117 arrows (way too stiff). And we all know that for certain types of shooting (like 20 yard spots) archers essentially de-tune their bows to get the point-on that they want.

Good but, for some of us, it's where the broadhead lands that counts. It sure helps if you can do most of your practice with field points. That means that the field points and the broadheads really need to hit the same place. That means "tuned", right? Of course it's hard to tell anything about the bow/arrow tune if you can't hit the same vicinity twice.

A new archer just learning to hit something doesn't need to worry much about tuning. On the other hand, a hunter or competitor with specific needs better get things tuned.

So how critical is your tune? It depends what you're doing.

What is it the kids say?...duh? LOL

I like Liquid Tensions golf ball analogy---I keep using old balls and have boxes of brand new titelists in the barn that I've picked up at outings over the years.

My friends make fun of the old off colored balls that I use and I tell them that I will break out the new balls when I get good enough. Been telling them that for 30 years...

"pie plate accuracy" - Now there is a cliché that needs to be buried at the crossroads.

LOL. I may have shot with some of you...watching your arrows porpoise, fishtail, etc on the way to the target... but your form was excellent. :) Jawge

You know it's a really funny thing. You read on here and other forums all the time about how broadheads take over and steer people's arrows. Oddly enough, I've been doing this for well over 40 years. I was taught early on to choose a reasonable spine arrow for the dynamic parameters of the bow I'm shooting, and mount the broadheads straight. I've NEVER had the broadhead steering the arrow thing. Even when using large profile broadheads.

Guess I've just been lucky.

Tuning is one part of accurate shooting. Like form. Like practice. Like focus.

Remove any part of good shooting and you have a *bad* shot. Or mediocre at best.

Too many people too willing to settle for mediocrity. Whatever happened to taking pride in your shooting?

I would agree with that Dana. However, in my opinion the fine tuning that takes place is the final part of an accurate shot. If an individual doesn't understand grip, alignment, anchor/sighting reference, and release, the tuning piece won't help. And particularly not at the distances that most folks that hang out here shoot which is under 30 yards. A bow, any bow will shoot a considerable range of spines within those distances and it will shoot them as accurately as, or more accurately than most folks can shoot.

Jim Ploen used to just for kicks gather up arrows from a bunch of people that were at his seminars, and shoot them all in a tight little group at 20 yards. Then, he would turn the bow upside down so he couldn't use the rest/arrow shelf and do the same thing,.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the thread. I read Lt's last post and think...well yes, so?

On the rare occasion I get a new bow or something, it doesn't take long to get things set up...but that's tuned, right?

As I said, it's one part of the 'equation'. The good thing is, while you can lose focus, or screw up on form, the bow/arrow set-up will still be tuned. (If it was to begin with!)

Some of us use tuning for reasons beyond good arrow flight. Some old rules regarding tuning need thrown out the window. Some folks have not figured out you can break old rules and be more successful. I'm referring to distance specific tuning, which has absolutely nothing to do with the old "set your nock point at 5/8 and let her rip" Basic guides are meant to get you close, but not everyone anchors the same nor has the same physical build. Bottom line? Experiment and find what works best for you and to hell with everybody else.

MoOse….distance tuning isn't new by nearly 100 years. L.E. Stemmler was talking about tuning at 100 yards back when he wrote The Essentials of Archery.

There is nothing new in tuning, but a lot sure has been forgotten. For instance the affect that the material on the sight window shelf has on arrow flight and impact. How the depth of the ACTUAL sight window affects arrow spine, and a dozen other things that affect arrow flight.

Ok, Ok, Ok.... I see now, some of you folks don't think that other than a few of you so called "elite" understand how to shoot a bow. Us mere mortals don't understand alignment, shot execution, and world class accuracy. Well in my little ole part of the country we have a number of world class shooters. My shooting partners and I will shoot with ANY of the "tuning don't matter TEAM", ANYTIME. We will meet your team of four against our team of four. We will bare shaft or paper tune before we shoot. If your bow is REMOTELY tuned your team will receive a ZERO for your participation! We can shoot field (I would video anyone shooting field archery with an untuned setup, that'd be some funny stuff), spots or 3D, you call it :)

News flash, you can't achieve world class archery accuracy without tuning to some degree!!! You cannot be a responsible hunter without tuning, period. And for those who say that you regularly achieve broadhead accuracy without tuning are lucky, I'd say damn lucky or you're full of BULL :)

So far, all I have learned is who of you that don't hunt responsible at all or, who loves to stir the pot, or both. As far as the poop stirrers, one post you tell us different ways of tuning, in another post you say it don't matter, make your mind up. Oh, I'd love to see you of the "untuned team", lol :)

BEWARE NEWBIES... This is hands down the MOST un-educational thread I've ever seen on LW or any site for that matter, sorry I got involved!!!

I'm with ya...there's so much more than a 5/8 nock point and so on. Tiller, fixed crawl, gap, Point on distance etc. I never could wrap my head around why anybody would want to shoot split finger when the max self imposed effective range is 20 yards or under? There are far better ways to go about things.

Caughtandhobble, I thought I read people should spend more time learning to execute a shot properly than worrying about tuning to the 9th degree. I didn’t read anywhere where someone said don’t tune at all.

Mine didn't either HH :)

Well the OP did say argue lol

Well I’ll admit I am a tuner. I always get a kick out of watching guys with there “great arrows they can shoot out of many poundage bows”. Some fishtail and others porpoise down to the target. Also if you tune to a 28” draw but only pull 26”, o well I do like to get a tuned bare shat out to shoot and see if I am still in tune. My iPhone has a slo motion in video. Shows up a lot of form issues. RonL

I thought it was seal skin :)

The context of the tiopic is that tuning won'tcover up flaws in shooting. And it won't.

Who said anything about tiller tuning 100 years ago? Although I'd say that Gilman Keasey, Stanley Spencer and some of them old boys probably knew how to tiller tune their Yew self bows.

Interestingly there is 1 guy on this thread that actually competes regularly at the world class level. And he did say that his arrows are out of tune for all but 2 distances. Most folks can't achieve world class status even with the best tuning that they can do so let's lay that to rest pretty quick.

And Caughtandhobble you need to be a little careful about insinuating that folks are unethical or liars. Some don't take well to that.

Fdp, Well said.

fdp, I guess you did not take it well. I was referring to you since you want to use names, I don't have a problem here. I have never seen you at a single shoot of any kind, yet you are the first one to shoot someone down (and not just this thread). I would dearly love to shoot with you and see just how "internet great" you really are. You better be careful my friend, you may just learn something from me :)

Stephen did say that he tuned. Guess what, if you're tuned at mid range you'll be pretty well tuned on both sides. Most of us respect his comments and advise!!!

This thread my have been in jest but some people believe everything they read and there is some pretty unbelievable comments on here!!!

Caughtandhobble, I knew you were talking about me. Why do you think I called your name? Who did I shoot down? I said that tuning won't cover up shooting flaws. It won't.

Your statement is a little goofy. Take this for instance "We will bare shaft or paper tune before we shoot. If your bow is REMOTELY tuned your team will receive a ZERO for your participation". What does that mean? Does that mean if the arrow doesn't go through the paper side ways? If it doesn't go through the paper with the nock severely high or low? What does it mean? Does it mean if bare and fletched shafts group together a -0- would be given? Does it mean if the bareshafts hit a vertical line in the target? What does it mean?

If you go back and read I didn't say I didn't tune. I didn't say that anywhere Now, if you, or someone else took it that way, not really my problem.

Why don't you list some of "pretty unbelieveable comments" that you mention?

I never ever said anything about bein elite or great at anything...ever. You are the one who made that claim.

I respect everything that Steven says, and I beleive he knows that. You don't have to agree with everything that someone says on every topic to respect them.

And no, you probably haven't seen me at any shoots, because I don't typically go to organized shoots. Kind of got tired of that stuff some years ago, but still stay involved in archery and the sporting goods world.

This thread has been a pretty interesting exercise in human behavior. Kind of like the instinctive or not, and form versus no form threads.

As for learning something, I've been around long enough to have figured out that you can learn something from nearly everybody if you aren't too full of yourself to pay attention.

The discussion is not either/or. It's 'how much'?

You need a 'starting' tune that allows you to achieve consistent form without distraction. As you shooting improves you'll be able to tune finer.

OP: "I believe a lot of Archers would be better off improving their shot than worrying about tuning to the 9th degree. I find a heavy arrow that flies straight & I’m done period. "

Some would consider that a 'starting' tune, others would fiddle with it. A few would fiddle with it to the point of obsession.

As long as you're not using tune as an excuse for poor shooting all the time, where's the harm?

Execellant ( arguing) ??.For my self I like a arrow that is turned to the bow.Because a if the arrow is either way to stiff or weak,there is a lot of energy lost at release.Which of course means distance lost as a result.That would not help in the accuracy department.

LT: (from your O.P.)...

"The bow tuned or untuned will duplicate every shot if you do. The only variable becomes the arrow. This truth is too hard for most Archers."

True...but what good is it if all arrows shot are in a nice tidy group "LOST IN THE WOODS"?...and?..."Only If They Were All Shot From The Same Distance"...and moreover?...how aggravating is it to shoot a bow who's arrow strikes off-the-mark by as many varying distances as there are distances shot?...and this is where your version of the truth becomes utter BS where the reality for archers shooting bows with risers not cut past center or maybe even cut well before center or maybe even just "Cut-Too-Center" (with a fat arrow) is?...

1/4" drop in BH can mean the difference between being on foam at 30yds or?...a lost arrow...or even worse yet?...the difference between a clean harvest or a wounded animal at 20yds and get this...

"Especially IF Their Form & Execution Was Consistent!"

One conflict of interest here that results in somewhat of a conundrum is that there's a huge difference between String-Walking BB Archers and pretty much all other archers because while all other archers "Tune For Clean Consistent Flight"?...SW/BB archers?...

"Tune For Point Of Impact"

and couldn't give a flip how wibbly-wobbly their arrows fly as long as they score a bullseye and speaking of the word "Fly"?...that's exactly what those $150 Beiter Plungers are for so that they can..."Tune On-The-Fly"...by micro-clicking the plunger to either increase or decrease plunger tension too the appropriate adjustment pending the distance they are shooting and how long or short their string walking crawls may be but make no mistake because despite the comparatively dirty arrow flight?...their spin-wing vanes will soon correct such as their crawls adjust the elevation while their micro-click plunger tension tunes in their left/right point of impact (pending distance shot) as their arrow quite literally becomes..."Their Sight Pin"...where "FORM" is extremely important as it's what their arrow depends upon for it to successfully positioned as?...

"An Accurately Adjusted Sight Pin"

I abandoned this thread early on when I had a couple posters promptly mock me for making the statement...

"nothing says "I'm A Rookie" louder than the "WHACK!" of stiff shafts off a riser wall"

which only told me that the mockers haven't got much experience with cut-before-center longbows/selfbows where the whacking sound can occur even if the arrows aren't all that stiff but the BH is just a touch too low and?.."WHACK!...but I guess this is a good chance to exercise the phrase...

"Little do they know"

To end?...while a poorly tuned bow will consistently hit a spot (at "A" given distance) provided a consistent shot is executed?...it won't hit "The Spot" the archer is aiming at when shot from a number of random/unknown distances and you wanna talk "Un-Tuned Rigs"?...

Try shooting micro-diameter shafts off-the-shelf of a riser that has a large corner radius where wall meets shelf because even with the most consistent or shot executions?...LOL!...again...

little do they know. ;)

I will always remember something Viper once said, it went something like this "If you're not working on something in a shooting session, then you are just shooting". I agree whole heartily, whether it is tuning, bale or whatever one feels they need to work on. I also believe that it is ok to just shoot and have fun.

As far as the pros don't think for a second that their 20 yard crawl is not tuned better than most of ours would end up.

Pie plate accuracy is not a bad thing, at 60 yards :)

IMO, it all boils down to some people are happy with the way they shoot and some people are never happy with the way they shoot and they're always looking for ways to improve. There's no right or wrong :)

If I know the arrows are right for my bow, if I know the arrows fly straight and true, if I know nothing but the rear of the fletching will be visible and if I miss the mark anyway, then the problem is my form.

As Dana so sagely advised, it is not either or, it is both.

Jawge

GT: X's 2!!! :)

I'd just as soon give up archery...no...actually?....I'd pay NOT to shoot if the bow I was shooting was loud and vibey while I suffered a ton of hand shock...(where here again we're talking two different worlds where things ain't so bad for the BB archer shooting light DW limbs on a boat anchor weight riser or the hunter shooting heavy DW limbs on much lighter risers)...only to be punished with the ugly sight of an arrow wobbling so bad it looks like it can't decided which way to go? LOL!

But get this...you'll get ^^THAT^^ whether it's a highly skilled archer with great form and a poorly tuned bow or any bow in the hands of a poor archer.

I truly believe a arrow that matches the bow with proper spine,is more forgiving of poor shooting form. And having good shooting form is paramount to also clearly getting good consistant accuracy. So there for they both compliment each other.So both need to be there for the accurate shot.I am referring to shooting bows that are one peace long bows not cut past center,that's all I have ever shot.I have no exspierence with the warf and other abbreviations, heck ,i don't even know what they stand for!!!

fdp there's more than one on this thread.

“Putting Tuning ahead of a Proper Shot is beyond dumb!”

Full Disclosure: I’ve never even ENTERED a competitive shoot, let alone won anything, but I’ve been improving and I did learn to do some bare-shaft tuning.

And I will say this: I never would have gotten anywhere with it had I not FIRST learned to shoot well enough to hit a bamboo garden stake with reasonable regularity at about 15 yards. Not every time by any stretch, but consistently close enough that people would believe you if you told them you were aiming at it.

Actually no HH. That's not something that's new, innovative, or unique. That's something that Dean Torges did years ago, and something I've done as well, as much as anything so that there is no need to have lots of different spine arrows laying around. ANd in that case you are tuning the bow, and not so much the arrow as most folks do now. I was actually taught to tune the bow to shoot the arrow I wanted it to shoot.

Like I said, there's not much new out there when it comes to archery and what is new is mostly available now due to the advancement of material used in limbs and so on.

"MO, it all boils down to some people are happy with the way they shoot and some people are never happy with the way they shoot and they're always looking for ways to improve."

I've shot 269/300 with a Super Kodiak of the shelf and 273/300 with my Hoyt using elevated rest and plunger. Nothing to call home about but you know how much it took me the tuning process? The time spent on the Stu's calculator adding the correct data and the arrow length I wanted and 10 shots at 30 yards for each bow. And I can say that the tuning is not the factor to look at to increase my scores. At least for me is not.

Ya know, I never claimed that tuning trumps form and execution. To say that would be stupid. Just as Pellerite's claim that it doesn't matter is.

I've been shooting for a couple of days now, and sure, I know, that one can "adjust" left/right" by adjusting string blur. But why screw with tour self by having to depend upon that, and never knowing if the arrow will even do the same thing twice in a row when you can establish a solid "fix" by good tuning?

Shooting well depends upon the shooter.

And the better the shooter, the more benefit they can extract from dialing in a good state of tune.

Well LT you asked for argument and you got it.

Personally I think many people make this whole tuning thing way too complicated. But maybe that is because I have been shooting mainly the same three longbows for almost 20 years now and pretty much know what works with them. Even when I first got them though it wasn't all that difficult getting them to shoot an arrow straight. A little playing around with the nock point and brace height and everything was fine.

The arrows I shoot are spined within about a 15 pound range. They all shoot straight from any of my bows with no porpoising or fishtailing. They all shoot straight whether they have a field point or a broadhead on them.

With any of my bow/arrow combinations if I perform my shot correctly with a good release and follow through the arrow goes where I want it to. If I don't perform correctly then the arrow goes where it wants to.

Maybe some folks doing serious precision shooting with an Olympic recurve need to pay more attention to more technical aspects of tuning. But I just don't understand why people shooting a bare longbow or recurve need to make things so complicated some times.

I can't get pictures of the bows to post. I'll try them again later.

However, one of the latest bows that I buolt around an arrow is a 68" selfwood board bow that's 50lbs. at 26". I built the bow over a weekend because I wanted a new bow to take on a hog hunt with me the follwoing week. The bow was tillered to shoot some 27" BOP 5/26" Oak arrows that I have that have MA-3 broadheads mounted on them. Dyed it and the just handle wrap green with food coloring. I built it to shoot those arrows simply because I didn't have time to build new arrows too.

The most recent bow is a 42" Juniper bow that is somewhat of a replica of a Comanche bow that I saw in the Panhandle Plains museum. The bow will be finished in a more Andaman/Holmegard style. I'll put sinew on the center 1/3 of the bow and it will fimish out at 50'ish pounds or so at 25". That bow will be built to shoot some 9/32" laminated Poplar shafts that I made myself as an experiment.

Lets put this into perspective, there is a clear separation between the tuning I can do with my 70" longbow and my DAS Tribute. Lets break it down.

70" wood longbow 1. Brace height 2. Nock point' 3. Sideplate thickness 4. Shelf height.

DAS Tribute 1. Brace height 2. Center shot side plate is adjustable 3. Tiller (for holding and limb timing) 4. Draw weight 5. Length (With different limbs even different styles) 6. Off the shelf or a bolt on elevated rest and plunger or stick on.

Arrows

1. Length/spine 2. Point weight 3. Fletching length 4. Weight tubes 5. Tapering (Wood)

The kicker is you have to shoot well enough to notice a difference.

Oh and one more thing..string material and strand count. I'm off to shoot my bow.

I've been tuning bows to arrows for many years. Pretty easy for self bows.

I once had a prof who asked for our opinion regarding a textbook we had used in class. I told him I did not like it.

He said, "Well, you are in no position to judge."

I said, "If you did not want my opinion, why did you ask for it?"

He said, "Good point."

Seems like kind of the same thing here.

What do I know? I've only been involved in trad archery for some 62 years (before it was trad...just archery) and have a rather large shelf filled with trophies.

Jawge

Which came first the chicken or the egg? I don't think you can really have one without the other to a degree. Set your nocking point 5/8 below 90 and shoot some 1916's out of a 70# bow at 29" and see what you get. I don't think you have to paper tune but it can be interesting. With a half a$$ tuned bow, form trumps.

Well HH, that's where everybody is different.

I'll build a bow out of anything, I have no hesitation about shooting pigs with a 3 balde broadhead out any kind of bow. Been doing it since the late '70's.

We do have the one thing in common though, I don't hunt pigs under feeders either.

Tuning is important if you want to become a better shot, no question!

I just want to take a moment to congratulate everyone participating in this thread cause y'all are doing a fine job of arguing! LOL!

And to pay homage too this thread?...I spent this one and only day off this week fine tuning my bows! LOL! :)

And?...I LIKED IT! LOL! :)

You got two jobs with that selfbow HH Brace height, and nock point. Try not to screw it up :)

Tuning forces me to be a better archer. :)

Fine tuning comes from hours and hours of diligent practice. You see, it's generally the archer that needs tuning, not the bow! - Schulz

Some can say "diligent tuning" too. But this is another story.

Standard tuning and fine tuning are exactly the same.

Except for the parts that are totally different.

Beware attempting a finer state of tune under unusual circumstances. Are you exceptionally tired? Are you considering changing anything after you have already been shooting for a long time? Etc etc.

Dang LT, there's going to be a few people here that hates to hear you tune after all, lol.

I did not see too many post that said tuning was more important than form, just saying.

Good luck and God bless all :)

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