From: Jarhead
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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Was wondering what the apatite would be create "a tab" for bow performance.
Was just thinking what if every member of the Wall - over the next year took their bow to a shop... and chronographed their bow?
Could provide guidance - - draw/shoot your arrow at 28" - shoot an arrow that is 10 gpi - three shot average (fingers) - when you submit you have to provide bow name, bow length, string type, brace height, etc.
YES the results would be flawed... but... over time... every bow (brand/type) would make its average. I think it would be a pretty sought after list...
We could all create a database and be little Blacky Schwarts'... except instead of a few dozen... we could have hundreds.
I know I reviewed Blackey's site and the "Walk the talk" results before I bought my Centaur. Now... that it was fast wasn't the only reason I bought it - but I did want an efficient bow and so that was a great place for me to start looking.
The performance threads ALWAYS have a HUGE number of hits... everybody weighs in and loves to talk about fast bows. The comments seem to follow a familiar script - "I shoot a so-and-so bow... and man is it FAST!... I've never chronographed it... but what you need to know is - it's fast! Faster than my other bows...but they are fast too!"
Good idea or is it better to just stay shrouded in mystery?
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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Well, if you had data that everyone agreed was not flawed and everyone wanted the fastest bow, think of the bowyers you'd put out of business. LOL.
In your case, years ago I knew a Centaur was fast and when I was ordering, litterly had Jim on the phone, I also found out they were short and didn't buy one. So, maybe that many wouldn't be out of business.
Bowmania
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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It would still be 'shrouded in mystery'. Frankly I think this just reinstates what most people think about, even as they tell us that it isn't just about speed. It's about speed and bragging rights. I've watched people shoot through chronographs and some will add another inch or more to their draw to get that last bit of energy to the numbers.
To me, such an event would be meaningless since most of us know what modern bows will likely do anyway with matched arrows at certain grains per pound. Emory Loiselle had a column nearly every month in Bow and Arrow Magazine during the 70's and 80's. If you're going to get figures that are anywhere near accurate, you need someone with a shooting machine and a protocol....and no dog in the hunt.
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From: Jarhead
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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I disagree... you shoot your bow according to the guidance... and input the average. I don't care if somebody shoots a Morrison that's faster than my Centaur. IF I did embellish my numbers... other Centaur shooters would input different results and my lie would eventually come out.
We're sitting on an empire of knowledge that... to at least some degree most trad shooters are interested in - and all it would take for it to happen is to grab an arrow at a shop that lines up with your bow at 28" and shoot it 3 times.
I guarantee if the administrator built it - they would come.
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From: GLF
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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The only true speed you'll get are with you shooting the bow. I don't care what speed a machine gets out of a bow because that tells me nothing of my speed with that bow. And since very seldom will you see 2 guys both get the same speed someone else's number mean very little to me. And lastly theres lost of different draw lengths and some bows will be fast at one draw length and maybe a dog at my draw.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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Jarhead, this campfire of knowledge always is opinionated and that is probably as it should be; however, unless you have a protocol, your information is as useless as trying to drink coffee with a fork. For instance, I can shoot my buddy's bow through the chronograph with the same arrow, same draw and will get up to 5 fps more than him. And that's is pulling the same length. Our release is that much different.
I personally wouldn't be interested with skewed figures but some may be. I did like like Blacky Swartz's tests since they were done independently and under proper guidelines. Since it's not my forum I can't make a decision either yea or nay, so see who's interested. I'm not...that's all.
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From: Jarhead
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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barebow - of course! There's intrigue in bow speed... whether everyone admits it or not. The beauty of many people submitting is - the guys that fudge are gonna get found out. The other day I think it was Frisky posted about a Morrison limb that was "FAST!"... I stopped my work and went and investigated.
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From: crookedstix
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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It's worth remembering that the arrow is the other half of the equation...and the string is the third half, LOL. It's an admirable idea, but the devil is in the details. It also assumes that anyone's, or rather everyone's chronograph is both accurate and precise. I think the challenge of getting true apples-to-apples results from a mixed pool of people, especially if they're shooting their own pet bows, would be insurmountable.
Much more practical would be to have people do Bow A vs. Bow B testing, so that relative erformance (rather than absolute) could be evaluated. JMO.
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From: GLF
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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For some people at some draw lengths Morrisons are very fast but for me mines slightly slower than my other bows but is still my go to hunting bow due to the fact it doesnt know how to miss.
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From: GLF
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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Btw, I am not anti chrono or speed. I own one and use it to compare bows and arrow weights with me shooting them.
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From: Jarhead
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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That's the beauty of having several people do it... same concept as a 5 shot group before you move your scope... you don't move from one shot... and if all of them are in one hole and there's one that's way off... which one do you believe?
Are inaccurate chronographs a thing?
George - well - you and I can both wish that Blackey would shoot our bow... and every other bow under sanitized precision environments... we might be waiting a while.
Yes... of course... "my release is faster my buddies..." Large numbers would reduce that noise greatly.
Not sure how the "arrow" is the other half of the equation... 10 GPI is 10 GPI from 3' away...
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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Well, the fastest are going to be the SR's and there's only about 5 of them out there.
Go to your proshop and shoot your bow through their chrony and come over hear and shoot through mine. We'll have different results.
You have a 29 inch draw, come over hear and we'll shoot through my chrony with the same bow and same arrow, and as George said we'll have different results.
Moose that I see more on TT than here, is starting a YouTube (what ever you'd call it) on testing equipment. He has a hooter shooter and assorted equipment. Testing with the same equipment is more valid than the above mentioned testing.
Bowmania
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From: GF
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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I hate to join in with the naysayers, but just as with accuracy and the percentage of deer hit that are lost or found, the #1 variable is always going to be the operator.
So in an undertaking such as the one described here, you would doubtless have such a variance and around every single bow that all a good statistician could tell you is that there’s not a dime’s worth of difference in the lot of ‘em. I mean, sure, you’d likely see that carbon-fiber, D/R Longbows are faster than unbacked self- bows, but we knew that.
Besides, I couldn’t draw 28” on a bet!
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From: hawkeye in PA
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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Frisky has the bestest and fastest, just ask him.
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From: badger
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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I saw one post above that speculated that everyone might go to the fastest bow. I doubt that would happen. It would hold bowyers to a reasonable standard but I think how well someone shoots a bow would always take president over a few feet per second in speed. We would also accumulate some data on the durability of the bows I would like to think. Some of the real fast bows in the past that had done real well in testing events were dialed back because of durability issues. I think the data base would be a great idea and I have a feeling it would show that the difference in most well made bows is so small it is not worth consideration when making a decision.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 05-Dec-18 |
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I never mentioned anything about Morrisons. I do know my new Bear TD is probably the ultimate bow if you take into account bow speed, quietness and shoot ability. Also workmanship.
Joe
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From: dean
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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I have ASLs that shoot as fast as those Bear takedowns, then when you start thinking about craftsmanship, the other blobity blahs and then add handling and durability, it is a no contest. I am not doubting that clunker Bear td that Friskerman has is not the fastest bow that he has ever had, all things are relevant to what they are being compared to.
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From: DanaC
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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A) my bows are 'fast enough'
B) I don't weigh my arrows
C) I'm not sure what my GPP is (See 'B')
D) faster bows mean that when you miss, your arrow runs away further!
E) all this number crap puts you on the wrong side of your brain
F) if people spent as much time practicing as they do calculating, the number that matters -score - would go up.
G) You're welcome. What are you buying me for Christmas? ;-)
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From: pockets
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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I find myself in agreement with DanC and Liquid Tension on this. But hey, if someone wants to gather information and chart it, all I can say is; 'everyone has different hobbies'.
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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I love to tune.
I love to compare.
I love to shoot, and make it all come together.
I think data bases of information to draw from are a great idea, but if those data bases aren't provided under controlled guidelines they won't mean much.
Do I think you'll get enough to participate to make it worth while? Nope. I've tried it several times. Most folks just want to shoot.
Rick
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From: Kwikdraw
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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To all you naysayers, blah, blah, blah! I think it would be great information for guys looking at buying their 1st bow or buying any bow, or comparing bowyers & mfgs. The guidelines would be simple: 1. Mfg of bow, AMO and #age, recurve, longbow or selfbow 2. String type 3. Draw to 28" 4. Fingers release 5. Distance from Chrono 6. 500 grain arrow, or thereabouts. It would be really interesting. I pour over ballistic tables more for fun than for info, but derive much pleasure from the tables provided, especially all the different calibers and bullet weights. Even though a .22 will kill as well as a .458Mag, under the right conditions, they are totally different animals, as are most bow mfgs. And I'm sure there would be surprises as in any endeavor of this type. So, I'm in! Let the shooting begin!
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From: Jarhead
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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Yup... look at ANY performance related thread on this page... and others like it... massive readership/responses. Everyone's interested.
Frisky - sorry... I thought it was you. Apologies.
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From: goldentrout_one
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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The two factors that would be outside of control:
a) Velocity will be impacted by release, and possibly the tab or glove used. And of course draw length....
b) Velocity will be impacted by the chronograph, as there will be small variation with respect to calibration. Now, being a few FPS off is probably ok with a rifle or handgun, but when you are shooting in the 140 fps to 200 fps range, just a few fps error is huge.
For such a database to be valid, you would have to use a shooting machine with a mechanical release, and you'd have to use the same chronograph or have some way of making sure all the chronographs used in the study have the same calibration, not sure that is practical. And of course there is the string issue, but THAT can be documented. But to compare apples to apples, all the bows should use the same string material and design.
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From: dean
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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I admit it, even though I shoot those slow ASLs, I like to see the numbers. Not all ASLs are slow, some people don't get much speed out of any bow, and some bows that are fast at a 30" draw are dogs at a 26" draw. I went to a shoot that had two chronos set up, 3 shots for a dollar. They both swore that they were corrected tuned and dead accurate. All three of us tested our bows in both. Average difference from unit to unit was 12 fps. Either one was way off or they were both a little off in opposite directions. A chronograph can be a very good tool for an individual, but I do understand what it takes to get them all on the level of consistency. Two guys have them locally, they both are accusing the other guy's unit for be completely wrong. I shot my bow through one, a 1918 538 grains, it read 176, I shot again it read 176. I found what I needed to know, I shot two arrows at exactly the same speed, that was my shooting flaw that i was working on.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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No need to apologize to me-ever. My name and performance just go hand in hand!
Joe
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From: Jarhead
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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LMAO...
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From: dean
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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In that case, I am sorry too Joe. I wonder if it would be possible for folks to simply post speeds of their actual shots and draw lengths, without getting blasted from those with their egos stuck in over drive.. When bows are tested at long draws that does not tell us less than 28" shooters much, but then guys with lots of money to burn that have short draws, like Rooty, spend thousands on various bows, speedo graphs don't cost that much. He could post the numbers with his shorter draw, I would take him at his word, I am not so sure that others would. I would have my own, but the there are the two within a couple of blocks of me that I use when I want to test things. The problem is I do not know if either are accurate enough to actually declare any given reading as fact. What I am sure of they do not give consistent numbers when set up in the shade of a tree on a breezy day when particles of dancing sunlight are constantly hitting the unit. Are there any chronographs that are reliable in those conditions?
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From: Babbling Bob
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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Part of my working life was agricultural research where we collected both measured information using implements and subjective information like leaf color, crop quality, etc. With our bows, measured performance like speed from one laboratory (different folks homes across the country as an example) to another will vary, even when using the same calibrated equipment, just do to operator error. Same with subjective inofrmation about color, winterkill, quality, ground coverage etc. We all like different shooting equipment often not based on performance alone.
I like what I like and that's what I like, so would never use a table of data about bow speed and other performance data to compare bows. The exception would be if I did the research myself so I could manufacture bows and adjust their designs as needed. Most bows that we shoot have more differences in their character than differences in performance.
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From: HerbP
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Date: 06-Dec-18 |
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I have a chrono and George is totally correct in that numbers are just numbers and data is for people to criticize. Either my chronograph is so accurate or my form is flawed cause i need to take multiple shots through it and take an average to get conclusive results. It is fun to check guys bows and watch them go home crying or pissed, as the results are usually much lower than expectations. Herb
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From: twostrings
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Date: 07-Dec-18 |
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Jarhead, was there anything in particular that led you to believe your interesting proposition would NOT create another aimless and meandering debate?
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 07-Dec-18 |
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Just to be clear - I think it's a great idea. I just don't think you will ever get enough folks to participate in order to gather much data.
The only way to do it is like Blacky did/does, which is to get a bunch of different bows & other equipment in your hands, and do it yourself.
Rick
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From: Tlhbow
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Date: 07-Dec-18 |
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This is the new mindset across the board. All about history, from bows, guns, building houses or mowing yards. Will folks buy a bow based on performance (speed being #1) without knowing how it feels, is it quiet, is it accurate at this level of test. Not saying it's a bad thing but definitely the way things are heading.
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 07-Dec-18 |
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Heck I still remember all the stepping and fetching of people coming up with reasons not to shoot a damn paper plate at 20 yards and post a picture of their accuracy, or lack thereof, so likely there would be little participation.
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From: badger
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Date: 08-Dec-18 |
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If everyone went back and read the first post he clearly mentions taking the bow to an archery shop and having it shot through the chrono using a hooter shooter or shooting machine. Hand shot bows give no useful data. arrow weight, string weight, draw length etc all have to be controlled to be of any real value.
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From: nibler
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Date: 08-Dec-18 |
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nibler is a Stickbow.com Sponsor - Website |
https://oehler-research.com/model-35p/
checks itself---
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From: Oldbowyer
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Date: 08-Dec-18 |
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Nice little read this morning with my coffee. Think Jarheads idea would be good. Several archers shooting the same rig would give a good average of the real world performance of the bow in its "variables". But I'm more in Georges camp "set parameters" for true testing of a bows performance. Believe Norm and Blackie both shot 9gpp. Difference was Norm shot at AMO of 30" and Blackie shot at 28" if I have understood it right. True AMO is 60#@30" shooting 540grs. Very few of us pull 30" so we would never see the numbers of an AMO test. Blackies numbers would be closer to what a fellow would get out of a given bow with an average 28" draw minus the release. My favorite thing to look at is the DFC of a bow. Tells me pretty much what I want to know about how that bow is going to draw for a fella.
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From: jk
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Date: 08-Dec-18 |
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From: jk
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Date: 08-Dec-18 |
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.
"My gal is red hot, your gal ain't doodly squat."
My "favorite thing" has nothing to do with speed.
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