Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Leatherwall performance archive

Messages posted to thread:
Jarhead 05-Dec-18
Bowmania 05-Dec-18
Thumper 05-Dec-18
George D. Stout 05-Dec-18
Jarhead 05-Dec-18
barebow 05-Dec-18
GLF 05-Dec-18
George D. Stout 05-Dec-18
Jarhead 05-Dec-18
crookedstix 05-Dec-18
GLF 05-Dec-18
GLF 05-Dec-18
Jarhead 05-Dec-18
Bowmania 05-Dec-18
GF 05-Dec-18
hawkeye in PA 05-Dec-18
badger 05-Dec-18
Frisky 05-Dec-18
dean 06-Dec-18
DanaC 06-Dec-18
Liquid Tension 06-Dec-18
pockets 06-Dec-18
Rick Barbee 06-Dec-18
Kwikdraw 06-Dec-18
Jarhead 06-Dec-18
goldentrout_one 06-Dec-18
dean 06-Dec-18
Frisky 06-Dec-18
Jarhead 06-Dec-18
dean 06-Dec-18
Babbling Bob 06-Dec-18
HerbP 06-Dec-18
twostrings 07-Dec-18
Rick Barbee 07-Dec-18
Tlhbow 07-Dec-18
barebow 07-Dec-18
David McLendon 07-Dec-18
badger 08-Dec-18
nibler 08-Dec-18
Liquid Tension 08-Dec-18
Oldbowyer 08-Dec-18
jk 08-Dec-18
jk 08-Dec-18
From: Jarhead
Date: 05-Dec-18




Was wondering what the apatite would be create "a tab" for bow performance.

Was just thinking what if every member of the Wall - over the next year took their bow to a shop... and chronographed their bow?

Could provide guidance - - draw/shoot your arrow at 28" - shoot an arrow that is 10 gpi - three shot average (fingers) - when you submit you have to provide bow name, bow length, string type, brace height, etc.

YES the results would be flawed... but... over time... every bow (brand/type) would make its average. I think it would be a pretty sought after list...

We could all create a database and be little Blacky Schwarts'... except instead of a few dozen... we could have hundreds.

I know I reviewed Blackey's site and the "Walk the talk" results before I bought my Centaur. Now... that it was fast wasn't the only reason I bought it - but I did want an efficient bow and so that was a great place for me to start looking.

The performance threads ALWAYS have a HUGE number of hits... everybody weighs in and loves to talk about fast bows. The comments seem to follow a familiar script - "I shoot a so-and-so bow... and man is it FAST!... I've never chronographed it... but what you need to know is - it's fast! Faster than my other bows...but they are fast too!"

Good idea or is it better to just stay shrouded in mystery?

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




Well, if you had data that everyone agreed was not flawed and everyone wanted the fastest bow, think of the bowyers you'd put out of business. LOL.

In your case, years ago I knew a Centaur was fast and when I was ordering, litterly had Jim on the phone, I also found out they were short and didn't buy one. So, maybe that many wouldn't be out of business.

Bowmania

From: Thumper
Date: 05-Dec-18




What it may actually reveal is that most decent bows are close enough in performance that it doesn't really matter.

I think it would be a good idea. But we would have to have a lot of good, honest, and unbiased information obtained from a standardized method of some sort.

Otherwise, youd have the same scenario you mentioned above, only now with numbers attached which would just muddy the waters more. And by the time you factor in all the bickering and brand bias here, it would likely never work :)

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




It would still be 'shrouded in mystery'. Frankly I think this just reinstates what most people think about, even as they tell us that it isn't just about speed. It's about speed and bragging rights. I've watched people shoot through chronographs and some will add another inch or more to their draw to get that last bit of energy to the numbers.

To me, such an event would be meaningless since most of us know what modern bows will likely do anyway with matched arrows at certain grains per pound. Emory Loiselle had a column nearly every month in Bow and Arrow Magazine during the 70's and 80's. If you're going to get figures that are anywhere near accurate, you need someone with a shooting machine and a protocol....and no dog in the hunt.

From: Jarhead
Date: 05-Dec-18




I disagree... you shoot your bow according to the guidance... and input the average. I don't care if somebody shoots a Morrison that's faster than my Centaur. IF I did embellish my numbers... other Centaur shooters would input different results and my lie would eventually come out.

We're sitting on an empire of knowledge that... to at least some degree most trad shooters are interested in - and all it would take for it to happen is to grab an arrow at a shop that lines up with your bow at 28" and shoot it 3 times.

I guarantee if the administrator built it - they would come.

From: barebow
Date: 05-Dec-18




Since the closet archery shop to me is 45 minutes away I bought a chrony off the auction site for $65. Kind of fun comparing my own bows and different arrow weights. Maybe not perfectly calibrated but good enough for me.

From: GLF
Date: 05-Dec-18




The only true speed you'll get are with you shooting the bow. I don't care what speed a machine gets out of a bow because that tells me nothing of my speed with that bow. And since very seldom will you see 2 guys both get the same speed someone else's number mean very little to me. And lastly theres lost of different draw lengths and some bows will be fast at one draw length and maybe a dog at my draw.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




Jarhead, this campfire of knowledge always is opinionated and that is probably as it should be; however, unless you have a protocol, your information is as useless as trying to drink coffee with a fork. For instance, I can shoot my buddy's bow through the chronograph with the same arrow, same draw and will get up to 5 fps more than him. And that's is pulling the same length. Our release is that much different.

I personally wouldn't be interested with skewed figures but some may be. I did like like Blacky Swartz's tests since they were done independently and under proper guidelines. Since it's not my forum I can't make a decision either yea or nay, so see who's interested. I'm not...that's all.

From: Jarhead
Date: 05-Dec-18




barebow - of course! There's intrigue in bow speed... whether everyone admits it or not. The beauty of many people submitting is - the guys that fudge are gonna get found out. The other day I think it was Frisky posted about a Morrison limb that was "FAST!"... I stopped my work and went and investigated.

From: crookedstix
Date: 05-Dec-18




It's worth remembering that the arrow is the other half of the equation...and the string is the third half, LOL. It's an admirable idea, but the devil is in the details. It also assumes that anyone's, or rather everyone's chronograph is both accurate and precise. I think the challenge of getting true apples-to-apples results from a mixed pool of people, especially if they're shooting their own pet bows, would be insurmountable.

Much more practical would be to have people do Bow A vs. Bow B testing, so that relative erformance (rather than absolute) could be evaluated. JMO.

From: GLF
Date: 05-Dec-18




For some people at some draw lengths Morrisons are very fast but for me mines slightly slower than my other bows but is still my go to hunting bow due to the fact it doesnt know how to miss.

From: GLF
Date: 05-Dec-18




Btw, I am not anti chrono or speed. I own one and use it to compare bows and arrow weights with me shooting them.

From: Jarhead
Date: 05-Dec-18




That's the beauty of having several people do it... same concept as a 5 shot group before you move your scope... you don't move from one shot... and if all of them are in one hole and there's one that's way off... which one do you believe?

Are inaccurate chronographs a thing?

George - well - you and I can both wish that Blackey would shoot our bow... and every other bow under sanitized precision environments... we might be waiting a while.

Yes... of course... "my release is faster my buddies..." Large numbers would reduce that noise greatly.

Not sure how the "arrow" is the other half of the equation... 10 GPI is 10 GPI from 3' away...

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




Well, the fastest are going to be the SR's and there's only about 5 of them out there.

Go to your proshop and shoot your bow through their chrony and come over hear and shoot through mine. We'll have different results.

You have a 29 inch draw, come over hear and we'll shoot through my chrony with the same bow and same arrow, and as George said we'll have different results.

Moose that I see more on TT than here, is starting a YouTube (what ever you'd call it) on testing equipment. He has a hooter shooter and assorted equipment. Testing with the same equipment is more valid than the above mentioned testing.

Bowmania

From: GF
Date: 05-Dec-18




I hate to join in with the naysayers, but just as with accuracy and the percentage of deer hit that are lost or found, the #1 variable is always going to be the operator.

So in an undertaking such as the one described here, you would doubtless have such a variance and around every single bow that all a good statistician could tell you is that there’s not a dime’s worth of difference in the lot of ‘em. I mean, sure, you’d likely see that carbon-fiber, D/R Longbows are faster than unbacked self- bows, but we knew that.

Besides, I couldn’t draw 28” on a bet!

From: hawkeye in PA
Date: 05-Dec-18




Frisky has the bestest and fastest, just ask him.

From: badger
Date: 05-Dec-18




I saw one post above that speculated that everyone might go to the fastest bow. I doubt that would happen. It would hold bowyers to a reasonable standard but I think how well someone shoots a bow would always take president over a few feet per second in speed. We would also accumulate some data on the durability of the bows I would like to think. Some of the real fast bows in the past that had done real well in testing events were dialed back because of durability issues. I think the data base would be a great idea and I have a feeling it would show that the difference in most well made bows is so small it is not worth consideration when making a decision.

From: Frisky
Date: 05-Dec-18




I never mentioned anything about Morrisons. I do know my new Bear TD is probably the ultimate bow if you take into account bow speed, quietness and shoot ability. Also workmanship.

Joe

From: dean
Date: 06-Dec-18




I have ASLs that shoot as fast as those Bear takedowns, then when you start thinking about craftsmanship, the other blobity blahs and then add handling and durability, it is a no contest. I am not doubting that clunker Bear td that Friskerman has is not the fastest bow that he has ever had, all things are relevant to what they are being compared to.

From: DanaC
Date: 06-Dec-18




A) my bows are 'fast enough'

B) I don't weigh my arrows

C) I'm not sure what my GPP is (See 'B')

D) faster bows mean that when you miss, your arrow runs away further!

E) all this number crap puts you on the wrong side of your brain

F) if people spent as much time practicing as they do calculating, the number that matters -score - would go up.

G) You're welcome. What are you buying me for Christmas? ;-)

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 06-Dec-18




This is not directed @ the OP but guys get so wrapped up in tuning & it’s mind boggling. I personally find a decent heavy arrow with a point that flies straight & im done. I measure my “ FOC” by how far it zipped thru the deer. Most guys will do anything not to practice more. Take all your tuning time & put it into your Shot & you’ll never worry about your Tune again. Again not directed @ OP but tuning obsession & crunching numbers gets carried away.

From: pockets
Date: 06-Dec-18




I find myself in agreement with DanC and Liquid Tension on this. But hey, if someone wants to gather information and chart it, all I can say is; 'everyone has different hobbies'.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 06-Dec-18




I love to tune.

I love to compare.

I love to shoot, and make it all come together.

I think data bases of information to draw from are a great idea, but if those data bases aren't provided under controlled guidelines they won't mean much.

Do I think you'll get enough to participate to make it worth while? Nope. I've tried it several times. Most folks just want to shoot.

Rick

From: Kwikdraw
Date: 06-Dec-18




To all you naysayers, blah, blah, blah! I think it would be great information for guys looking at buying their 1st bow or buying any bow, or comparing bowyers & mfgs. The guidelines would be simple: 1. Mfg of bow, AMO and #age, recurve, longbow or selfbow 2. String type 3. Draw to 28" 4. Fingers release 5. Distance from Chrono 6. 500 grain arrow, or thereabouts. It would be really interesting. I pour over ballistic tables more for fun than for info, but derive much pleasure from the tables provided, especially all the different calibers and bullet weights. Even though a .22 will kill as well as a .458Mag, under the right conditions, they are totally different animals, as are most bow mfgs. And I'm sure there would be surprises as in any endeavor of this type. So, I'm in! Let the shooting begin!

From: Jarhead
Date: 06-Dec-18




Yup... look at ANY performance related thread on this page... and others like it... massive readership/responses. Everyone's interested.

Frisky - sorry... I thought it was you. Apologies.

From: goldentrout_one
Date: 06-Dec-18




The two factors that would be outside of control:

a) Velocity will be impacted by release, and possibly the tab or glove used. And of course draw length....

b) Velocity will be impacted by the chronograph, as there will be small variation with respect to calibration. Now, being a few FPS off is probably ok with a rifle or handgun, but when you are shooting in the 140 fps to 200 fps range, just a few fps error is huge.

For such a database to be valid, you would have to use a shooting machine with a mechanical release, and you'd have to use the same chronograph or have some way of making sure all the chronographs used in the study have the same calibration, not sure that is practical. And of course there is the string issue, but THAT can be documented. But to compare apples to apples, all the bows should use the same string material and design.

From: dean
Date: 06-Dec-18




I admit it, even though I shoot those slow ASLs, I like to see the numbers. Not all ASLs are slow, some people don't get much speed out of any bow, and some bows that are fast at a 30" draw are dogs at a 26" draw. I went to a shoot that had two chronos set up, 3 shots for a dollar. They both swore that they were corrected tuned and dead accurate. All three of us tested our bows in both. Average difference from unit to unit was 12 fps. Either one was way off or they were both a little off in opposite directions. A chronograph can be a very good tool for an individual, but I do understand what it takes to get them all on the level of consistency. Two guys have them locally, they both are accusing the other guy's unit for be completely wrong. I shot my bow through one, a 1918 538 grains, it read 176, I shot again it read 176. I found what I needed to know, I shot two arrows at exactly the same speed, that was my shooting flaw that i was working on.

From: Frisky
Date: 06-Dec-18




No need to apologize to me-ever. My name and performance just go hand in hand!

Joe

From: Jarhead
Date: 06-Dec-18




LMAO...

From: dean
Date: 06-Dec-18




In that case, I am sorry too Joe. I wonder if it would be possible for folks to simply post speeds of their actual shots and draw lengths, without getting blasted from those with their egos stuck in over drive.. When bows are tested at long draws that does not tell us less than 28" shooters much, but then guys with lots of money to burn that have short draws, like Rooty, spend thousands on various bows, speedo graphs don't cost that much. He could post the numbers with his shorter draw, I would take him at his word, I am not so sure that others would. I would have my own, but the there are the two within a couple of blocks of me that I use when I want to test things. The problem is I do not know if either are accurate enough to actually declare any given reading as fact. What I am sure of they do not give consistent numbers when set up in the shade of a tree on a breezy day when particles of dancing sunlight are constantly hitting the unit. Are there any chronographs that are reliable in those conditions?

From: Babbling Bob Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-18




Part of my working life was agricultural research where we collected both measured information using implements and subjective information like leaf color, crop quality, etc. With our bows, measured performance like speed from one laboratory (different folks homes across the country as an example) to another will vary, even when using the same calibrated equipment, just do to operator error. Same with subjective inofrmation about color, winterkill, quality, ground coverage etc. We all like different shooting equipment often not based on performance alone.

I like what I like and that's what I like, so would never use a table of data about bow speed and other performance data to compare bows. The exception would be if I did the research myself so I could manufacture bows and adjust their designs as needed. Most bows that we shoot have more differences in their character than differences in performance.

From: HerbP Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-18




I have a chrono and George is totally correct in that numbers are just numbers and data is for people to criticize. Either my chronograph is so accurate or my form is flawed cause i need to take multiple shots through it and take an average to get conclusive results. It is fun to check guys bows and watch them go home crying or pissed, as the results are usually much lower than expectations. Herb

From: twostrings
Date: 07-Dec-18




Jarhead, was there anything in particular that led you to believe your interesting proposition would NOT create another aimless and meandering debate?

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Dec-18




Just to be clear - I think it's a great idea. I just don't think you will ever get enough folks to participate in order to gather much data.

The only way to do it is like Blacky did/does, which is to get a bunch of different bows & other equipment in your hands, and do it yourself.

Rick

From: Tlhbow
Date: 07-Dec-18




This is the new mindset across the board. All about history, from bows, guns, building houses or mowing yards. Will folks buy a bow based on performance (speed being #1) without knowing how it feels, is it quiet, is it accurate at this level of test. Not saying it's a bad thing but definitely the way things are heading.

From: barebow
Date: 07-Dec-18




Well I pulled the chrony out and will post some numbers on a new thread.

From: David McLendon
Date: 07-Dec-18




Heck I still remember all the stepping and fetching of people coming up with reasons not to shoot a damn paper plate at 20 yards and post a picture of their accuracy, or lack thereof, so likely there would be little participation.

From: badger
Date: 08-Dec-18




If everyone went back and read the first post he clearly mentions taking the bow to an archery shop and having it shot through the chrono using a hooter shooter or shooting machine. Hand shot bows give no useful data. arrow weight, string weight, draw length etc all have to be controlled to be of any real value.

From: nibler
Date: 08-Dec-18
nibler is a Stickbow.com Sponsor - Website




https://oehler-research.com/model-35p/

checks itself---

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 08-Dec-18




I see no harm in guys using a chrono & I also see George’s argument. I would hope everyone here would not purchase a bow for themselves based solely on speed.

What I’m fascinated by these days is not speed but this perceived let off with the Super Hooks. I have hardware in my neck & cannot practice for long sessions anymore.This let off on the back end would suit me fine & I’d know I’d love it. I just need somebody to buy my 3 Palmers 1st.

These are interesting times in the Recurve industry that’s for sure with the advancements. I’m good for now, but it won’t last maybe @ tax time. Oops,did i say that. Lol

From: Oldbowyer
Date: 08-Dec-18




Nice little read this morning with my coffee. Think Jarheads idea would be good. Several archers shooting the same rig would give a good average of the real world performance of the bow in its "variables". But I'm more in Georges camp "set parameters" for true testing of a bows performance. Believe Norm and Blackie both shot 9gpp. Difference was Norm shot at AMO of 30" and Blackie shot at 28" if I have understood it right. True AMO is 60#@30" shooting 540grs. Very few of us pull 30" so we would never see the numbers of an AMO test. Blackies numbers would be closer to what a fellow would get out of a given bow with an average 28" draw minus the release. My favorite thing to look at is the DFC of a bow. Tells me pretty much what I want to know about how that bow is going to draw for a fella.

From: jk
Date: 08-Dec-18




.

From: jk
Date: 08-Dec-18




.

"My gal is red hot, your gal ain't doodly squat."

My "favorite thing" has nothing to do with speed.





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