Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


How important is it to index broadheads?

Messages posted to thread:
Jim McCann 03-Dec-18
fdp 03-Dec-18
George D. Stout 03-Dec-18
Jim McCann 03-Dec-18
George D. Stout 03-Dec-18
Msturm 03-Dec-18
GF 03-Dec-18
Mpdh 03-Dec-18
Jim McCann 03-Dec-18
DarrinG 03-Dec-18
tradmt 03-Dec-18
2 bears 03-Dec-18
Bentstick54 03-Dec-18
Tom McCool 04-Dec-18
George D. Stout 04-Dec-18
The Whittler 04-Dec-18
George D. Stout 04-Dec-18
JRW 04-Dec-18
timex 04-Dec-18
Jim McCann 04-Dec-18
NY Yankee 04-Dec-18
RymanCat 04-Dec-18
woodsman 04-Dec-18
Linecutter 04-Dec-18
Yellow Dog 04-Dec-18
Bill C 04-Dec-18
Rick Barbee 04-Dec-18
Big Dog 04-Dec-18
JRW 04-Dec-18
Tlhbow 04-Dec-18
George Tsoukalas 04-Dec-18
Stew 04-Dec-18
Buff 04-Dec-18
David McLendon 04-Dec-18
soap creek 04-Dec-18
dean 04-Dec-18
hawkeye in PA 04-Dec-18
Jim McCann 04-Dec-18
Pointer 04-Dec-18
2 bears 04-Dec-18
dean 05-Dec-18
Jon Stewart 05-Dec-18
Jeff Durnell 05-Dec-18
JusPassin 05-Dec-18
NY Yankee 05-Dec-18
Wapiti - - M. S. 05-Dec-18
Bassman 05-Dec-18
Tlhbow 05-Dec-18
Tlhbow 05-Dec-18
JRW 05-Dec-18
Jarhead 05-Dec-18
JusPassin 05-Dec-18
dean 05-Dec-18
Jeff Durnell 05-Dec-18
Linecutter 06-Dec-18
Murray Seratt 07-Dec-18
Tlhbow 07-Dec-18
From: Jim McCann
Date: 03-Dec-18




I've never done this, but perhaps I should start indexing broadheads?

From: fdp
Date: 03-Dec-18




Are you talking about having them all in the same position on the shaft in relation to the feathers? The most important thing is that they are mounted straight and spin true.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Dec-18




Doesn't matter how they align with the feathers, it matters only how well they are tuned to the arrow/bow. Is that what you are calling indexing?

From: Jim McCann
Date: 03-Dec-18




FDP,

Yes, aligned on the shaft in relation to the feathers. Saw it mentioned a few times and since I'm in the process of building some arrows I wondered if I should start paying attention to this.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Dec-18




Only if you want to. It has no bearing on arrow flight at all. None.

From: Msturm
Date: 03-Dec-18




Well dang! I am glad you asked! I have spent countless hours indexing my 3 blades to align with the feathers perfectly.... apparently for no reason. Learned something!

From: GF
Date: 03-Dec-18




Hmmm.... I was thinking to index mine at about 10:30 to the string...

I cant at about 1:30, so that would leave the blade vertical so I could have it as a reference on closer shots.

Help me get my bowhand down so I’d stop hitting high.

From: Mpdh Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Dec-18




I do mine all the same only because it gives better clearance for the heads and the fletch in a bow quiver. I do like to have 2 and 4 bld with bleeders mounted with the main blade horizontal.

MP

From: Jim McCann
Date: 03-Dec-18




If I were to try and index screw-in broadheads I'd have to think for a while on how to do that. But I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do with glue-on broadheads so perhaps I'll try it. I've not glued on broadheads since I was kid making my mother mad when building arrows in our kitchen back before the Civil War. Got some new carbon shafts today along with some brass inserts and glue-on Ace broadheads to try all this out. Something to keep me busy during these mostly dark Alaska winter days. I already have enough flies to fish every day of the rest of my life, so instead, I'll tinker with arrows.

Thanks for all of the input.

From: DarrinG
Date: 03-Dec-18




I shoot at a 11 oclock cant (lefty) and I shoot a fixed crawl, so I use the point of my arrow as my aiming point. I turn all my 2 blade Deltas and Simmons where they are flat at my 11 oclock cant so no blades sticking up interfere with my sight picture/alignment.

From: tradmt
Date: 03-Dec-18




I don’t index mine but I like to have my two blade heads laying horizontal in my sight picture. I just put the arrow on the string and twist the arrow( push in nocks) until I achieve that.

From: 2 bears
Date: 03-Dec-18




Since they rotate it doesn't matter much how they start out except for your vision/aiming thing. Aligning with the feathers is easiest to accomplish with small rubber washers/o'rings. A more solid solution is to rotate the insert. Then number broadheads and shafts so they can be put back if you remove for sharpening or changing points. >>>----> Ken

From: Bentstick54
Date: 03-Dec-18




Except for being a righty, I do the same as DarrinG. On my screw in broadheads I install inserts with hot melt, which allows me to adjust broadhead to my canted horizontal easily. If I ever need to change a broadhead due to damage I can screw in a new one, gently heat the insert and turn to proper position.

From: Tom McCool
Date: 04-Dec-18




I set mine so my sight picture in constant but I agree with the others that say it doesn't effect flight.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Dec-18




Jim, use hot melt for your bushings and you can align how you like by heating the heads enough to slightly melt the glue. Then you just turn them how you like for vision. How the appear, or don't appear in your vision is the only thing you accomplish.

From: The Whittler
Date: 04-Dec-18




I set my BHs so my arrows spin true no wobble. I would rather have an arrow fly true/straight then look good and fly bad.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Dec-18




Let me add this; if an arrow needs the broadhead set a certain way, then you aren't tuned and the broadhead is just exacerbating the issue.

From: JRW
Date: 04-Dec-18




George is correct. If you are properly tuned it's a moot point. Unless you use the edge of the blade as an aiming reference or something like that.

From: timex
Date: 04-Dec-18




I agree 100% when talking traditional bows but I shoot big 2 edge heads out of my compound at an estimated 280-290 fps & it does make a difference or at least it does for me

From: Jim McCann
Date: 04-Dec-18




Never thought I would enjoy tuning a recurve. Figured it didn't matter all that much within 20 yards since about any arrow I shot from my Black Widow went right to the point I was looking at. Then I tried bare shafting, noticed some shafts I had on hand were flying a bit weak, while others a bit stiff. Started tweaking things, settled on a new shaft spine, and they fly straight and true. Like "darts," as we tend to describe them. This morning I glued on a 165 grain Ace head and indexed it vertically. Late this morning when it warms up a bit, and during the few hours of daylight we have these days here in Interior Alaska, I'm planning on taking a few shots into a Block target to see how they work.

Thanks for all of the great input.

From: NY Yankee
Date: 04-Dec-18




Alignment with the fletching is not important. What is important is that the head spins perfectly true with no wobble. For me, I need the heads in a certain position so they all go in the same way in my arrow cases. It's a pretty tight fit. I like mine to run vertical. 12:00/6:00 pos.

From: RymanCat
Date: 04-Dec-18




Thup go get my arrow. Good hit now I go get him.

That simple when an arrow fly's straight to its mark.

What's it's all about alfie is too much thought.

No wobble? Yeah ok so that means you get your wood arrows perfect also. They have plenty of hucklebuck when they leave the bow.LOL

See how all this science is nonsense to killers.

Don't matter to me if vertical or horizontal I don't look at the end of the arrow or the BH to use as a site.

If I did that my computer program would crash in my head and not be able to0 self correct for any variances since it's on automatic. I think it was trained when I learned to throw a ball as a pup.

From: woodsman
Date: 04-Dec-18




I don't align my broad heads with the feathers but I do align them the same on all my hunting arrows.

Chris

From: Linecutter
Date: 04-Dec-18




If you are building your arrows for the broadhead. Put your insert in the shaft, if using epoxy put the broadhead on and spin it on your finger if you feel wobble adjust and try again till you don't have any wobble, do it before the glue sets. Hot melt heat and rotate till no wobble. Do all of this without the feathers on for the truest spin, feathers can hide some wobble. Once you get the truest spin number the broadhead to the shaft that way they will always match up if you take the broadhead off. If you use glue on arrow nocks then glue them on so you have your broadheads in the position you want them in vertical, horizontal, or a certain angle. If you have the adjustable nock then turn them to get the alignment you want. After you have done that, then put your feathers on. DANNY

From: Yellow Dog
Date: 04-Dec-18




Most important is for them to spin true. I set all my 2 blade up vertical inline with the string. Two reasons......I can put them in a bow quiver and don’t have to worry about fetching contact and I use the back of the broad head touching my index finger on my bow hand as a draw check.....

From: Bill C
Date: 04-Dec-18




I shoot four fletch with three blade heads. I simply index the heads so they are forming a "Y" as I look down the shaft. If I shoot a four blade head the bleeder blade with be vertical forming a "+" when the arrow is on the string...main blade will be horizontal.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 04-Dec-18




I'm gonna disagree with some of my elder/wiser brothers.

When shooting a solid/non vented two blade head with the blades mounted vertical, it very well can (and does) influence the arrow as it leaves the bow.

That is because,(contrary to popular belief) the arrows are flexing "long before" they start any rotation.

As the arrow flexes it causes air pressure to build up on the down range side of the broadheads, thus creating a little steering/influence of arrow flight, and will continue that influence until the rotation actually starts, which is generally 15ft or so down range. The wider the head, the more it will steer the arrow.

Of course, the better your tune, the less that influence will be, but it is there regardless. Vented blades lessen that influence somewhat.

Does that mean you can't tune to compensate? Of course it don't, but why make things more critical than they need to be?

When I shoot two blade heads I always align them horizontal, especially if they are non vented. That way they a slicing through that side steering pressure, instead of paddling it.

When I shoot 3 blade heads I align the blades with the fletching, but that's just because I want them to all look the same when I pull them up into my sight window/picture.

Rick

From: Big Dog
Date: 04-Dec-18




Reading some posts on here makes my head spin untrue. :o) Regards

From: JRW
Date: 04-Dec-18




I mount mine vertically so they slip between the ribs. :)

From: Tlhbow
Date: 04-Dec-18




I index perpendicular to the string , spinning at 180 degree intervals for best balance ,

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 04-Dec-18




I like them aligned horizontally. I find them better for aiming. Jawge

From: Stew
Date: 04-Dec-18




I mount my 2 blade broadheads vertical. This keeps them out my sight better.

From: Buff
Date: 04-Dec-18




Ishi had his vertical for animals horizontal for people. Rib orientation.

From: David McLendon
Date: 04-Dec-18




Horizontal for 2 blade, one up for 3 aligned with fletching.

From: soap creek
Date: 04-Dec-18




I could never tell any difference in how they flew, as long as they were mounted on straight. I do like my 2 blades horizontal. Only because they catch less wind that way. When hunting I knock an arrow and hang my bow up without using an arrow holder. I've had fewer arrows fall off that way.

From: dean
Date: 04-Dec-18




I will join in the it 'can' have an effect. My son found with the wide 160 Magnus that if the head is mounted vertically that it will strike the target at a different spot than a horizontally mounted head. This was with a Pete George yew ASL. He was using an indirect aiming spot, just to prove to himself that it was not his imagination. Visually, it did seem that the initial 'S' curve had a bit more side motion with the vertical head in that case. He was shooting as well as anyone with that bow and was shooting very tight groups at 30 yards with either position, he just needed to adjust his secondary to fix the 6" variant. With my bow at that same time , shooting Deltas, I could not tell the difference from horizontal to vertical. We were both shooting cedar arrows. So it could still be a tuning thing. However, I would guess that a wide solid head mounted vertical can enhance a tuning situation more than a horizontal head. I mount my heads vertical and touch my finger with the broad head as a draw check at full draw, and yes couple times, I have nicked my finger when over drawing a bit hard when shooting at a deer with narrow broad heads.

From: hawkeye in PA
Date: 04-Dec-18




If your making up new hunting carbon/aluminum arrows and have all the components tighten the broadhead up in the insert first. Fletch the arrows and then glue the insert in at what ever position you want for alignment. No reheating necessary.

From: Jim McCann
Date: 04-Dec-18




Made up one Gold Tip carbon shaft, 5" fletch, 100-grain brass Ace glue in/on insert and a 165-grain Ace glue on broadhead and indexed it to be straight up vertical. Same sort of combo I tuned my bow with except, of course, with a screw in field point.

Only 7-degrees around my place today, and not a lot of daylight, but I placed my "Block" target out around 20-yards and let the arrow fly. Struck just barely left of the small 3-inch bull. Retrieved the arrow and let it fly one more time and it struck just at the top edge of the same small center bull. Flew straight both times.

For now, I'm a happy camper.

From: Pointer
Date: 04-Dec-18




Not at all important for arrow flight. It's a site picture thing for me I use a two blade set horizontal to keep it out of my sight picture when Im picking my spot. Set vertically it sometimes bothers me. I don't like the added distraction

From: 2 bears
Date: 04-Dec-18




Rick I am older but certainly not wiser. You are correct. I tend to speak in generic terms that also suit my specifics. When you shoot way more poundage/faster arrows like you, it makes more difference. With a high speed compound and a release my 2 blades were always vertical. With a slower finger release horizontal can help negate the side oscillation caused by the fingers. As you stated if the broadhead is started of with a slight error either up or down or sideways wind catch will try to keep steering in that direction. With my speed,accuracy,and rotation, now, I can't tell the difference. If you have trouble with up and down mount them vertical. If you have trouble with windage mount them horizontal. It also seems that when we get too technical folks stop reading. Vision still seems to be the deciding factor. >>>----> Ken

From: dean
Date: 05-Dec-18




A few years back a college student had an assignment to focus on sports in out little town and make a film. She had access to use one of the colleges high speed video cameras. She came by and asked if she could film me shooting stuff. I shot some tight groups with my target bow and some peanut can lids with a longbow. Then she wanted to take shots from all angles. When she was reviewing what she shot, she saw the limb vibrations, the string oscillations and the arrow oscillations. She came by and showed me and asked how that only showed up when she went for super slow motion takes. I explained that the arrow oscillations were caused by the fingers and if I used a mechanical release they would not happen. She wanted to shoot that at high speeds. So I grabbed an ASL and let her film some over the shoulder shots with the fingers and the caliper release. When we watched them, I was amazed that the arrow oscillations were nearly identical with both the fingers and the release. My theory and I believe it makes perfect physics logic, out of a non- center shot bow the arrow is going to resist acceleration, the string drives straight at the center of the bow, so the arrow bends into the bow before bending around the bow. About the same if you take something like a fishing rod blank, set the tip off just a little against a wall and push it straight at the wall. If the tip is off to the left the fishing rod will always bend to the right. Simple physics. I wonder if Howard Hill's preference for vertical heads and side shot bows were influenced by this and as good of a shot that he was, saw that the wide heads with his wood arrows had more wind planing affects due the the fact that his arrows were taking a wider ride than what center shot bows and stiff carbons give us today.

From: Jon Stewart
Date: 05-Dec-18




Mine fly best when the blade is mounted at 1pm and 7pm on the clock unless it is a morning hunt them it's 1am and 7 am on the clock. Lol

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 05-Dec-18




I orient the feathers for the best clearance from the bow, and orient the broadhead so it's vertical when I cant the bow.

When the broadhead is vertical and I'm focused out there on the target, the blade is practically invisible, and with only the ferrule in the peripheral vision it acts the same as a field point.

It it's horizontal, it looks like a big dinner plate out there and distracts me at less yardage than a field point. Field points eventually distract me too, but not until the range is nearer my point on distance, which is when I stop shooting instinctive and start gapping. By turning the two blade broadhead vertical while canted, my aiming regimen stays consistent.

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




OK, all you "rib" guys. I'm assuming you're just joking right? I mean with the arrow spinning you can't possibly know the orientation at impact.

From: NY Yankee
Date: 05-Dec-18




Rib orientation? Now I think I've seen everything!

From: Wapiti - - M. S. Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




I was told I would get better arrow flight if I aligned the feathers with the broadhead. I didn't pay attention to this advice,my arrows flight was fine. I couldn't see spending all that extra time aligning them.If something isn't broke don't fix it.

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 05-Dec-18




Vintage Bear wood arrows index arrows 12 o,clock 6 o,clock position with insert at 3 to 9 o,clock.I set mine at 3 to 9 o,clock with no inserts.i get them as close to perfect as I can.I am anal about that, and for no good reason.

From: Tlhbow
Date: 05-Dec-18




Straight fletched with the broadhead vertical to your shooting form . sounds reasonable..

From: Tlhbow
Date: 05-Dec-18




Look up the story where Howard Hill turned a broadhead horizontal to cut a rope to get a part in movie..

From: JRW
Date: 05-Dec-18




"OK, all you "rib" guys. I'm assuming you're just joking right? I mean with the arrow spinning you can't possibly know the orientation at impact."

Yeah, just having a bit of fun. :)

From: Jarhead
Date: 05-Dec-18




So... for arrow flight - "doesn't matter." No discussion to be had there... it's all about tuning vs. orientation. That said - depending on "what you see" when you're at full draw - there MAY be a case for it. My broadheads come into view when I'm "aiming." Could probably make the claim that having the broadheads "look" the same would create a more consistent sight picture. You're using the front of the arrow as part of your "is this right?" that's going on in your head?

I'm not an aimingologist… I didn't sleep at a holiday inn last night either. Just something to consider.

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 05-Dec-18




I would echo what jarhead offered. I do orient mine horizontal to keep the blade out of the "sight picture" when looking down the shaft.

From: dean
Date: 05-Dec-18




i going to go to four blade heads, then I get the best of both worlds,,, maybe I should mount them kitty wampus.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 05-Dec-18




Three feathers and two blades... I tried to align them for days... Never did figure that one out.

From: Linecutter
Date: 06-Dec-18




Tlhbow if you go back and read that, you will find (at least in what I read) he practiced by car headlights, counted the rotation of the feather at a certain distances, to figure out when the broadhead would be horizontal. So that when he shot at the rope, the broadhead would be horizontal to cut the rope. It took him a while to figure it out, he didn't just make it happen on the first or second shot. It was how he got the job to shoot the arrows for the movie "The Adventures of Robin Hood". Story goes he was the only one who did it for those that tried out for the shooting parts. DANNY

From: Murray Seratt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 07-Dec-18




Rib orientation! When I managed to kill a gemsbok with my recurve, everybody was curious. We had a young wildlife biologist with us that I did not know. He was a friend of my older brother. After they got him gutted and hung, we all went to investigate. The biologist said "Man, you put that arrow between his ribs on both sides." I asked, Don"r you know how to do that. You have to time your shot with his breathing. When he inhales, the ribs spread apart, and you can shoot your arrow between them easily. " He looked at me, and his eyes rolled so far back in his head, I had to hit him in the back of his head with a Tusker beer bottle to get them back to normal position.

Murray

From: Tlhbow
Date: 07-Dec-18




Thanks Danny. It's been awhile since I was reading about it just remembered the outcome . He also overhauled the front of the broad head to catch the rope . Bowhunters/archers can get pretty creative at times .





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