Where's a "big smile" emoji when ya need one.

Awesome illustration Jimmy.

Another thing you can do "IF" you don't want to draw on your bow, and "IF" the riser has some easily seen visual characteristics, is to map those characteristics to corresponding distances just like the mark Jimmy put on his.

Triangulate the left/right of the arrow tip with the up/down of the mark, and as Jimmy says, "You're Golden".

Rick

Awesome video...which shows a picture is worth a thousand words. When folks decide their personal egos won't kill game or hit x's, then they need to give this style, or even sights a try. There is no reason to miss badly because you can't shoot well without sights. Besides that, practicing that way will solidify your form and help those who want to use it just for training for barebow shooting. Well done.

Awesome video...which shows a picture is worth a thousand words. When folks decide their personal egos won't kill game or hit x's, then they need to give this style, or even sights a try. There is no reason to miss badly because you can't shoot well without sights. Besides that, practicing that way will solidify your form and help those who want to use it just for training for barebow shooting. Well done.

Outstanding. Somebody that used to post on here used to use a piece of white tape and so the same thing. As I recall he was deadly as well.

Thanks for sharing JB. It should be everyone's goal when shooting at game to make the best shot they can.

[[[ Outstanding. Somebody that used to post on here used to use a piece of white tape and so the same thing. As I recall he was deadly as well. ]]]

Capt. Jack Krohn, and he still does it this way to this day. 8^)

Rick

Good stuff

I did similar thing in my Longbow days, when I shot split finger, put thin strips of bright tape for 10, 20, 30, 35 and 40 yards (+45y my arrow was on the target face so I just gapped off the arrow) and spent a few weeks shooting those tape gaps. For tourney I obviously had to remove them but somehow my brain still saw those imaginary strips, it gave me some good Field scores.

This is a picture of Jack's hunting rig.

Rick

Very good stuff and"Food for Thought".

Jimmy that is the neatest thing since I learned the fixed crawl from your video. I will have to try it. I feel though it will be harder for me to reference the windage with the shaft and the elevation with the mark than just putting the point right on. Thanks. >>>----> Ken

That looks right Rick.

10-15 yards, see the spot, BAMMMMMMMM! Meat.

Good ole Kentucky! Wish we had fall archery turkey here.

Shotgun Archery Crossbow Oct. 27 - Nov. 2 and Dec. 1-7, 2018 Sept. 1, 2018 - Jan. 21, 2019 Oct. 1-21 and Nov. 10 - Dec. 31, 2018 BAG LIMITS Four birds total, no more than two (2) of which may be taken with a shotgun. No more than one (1) bird may have a beard length of three (3) inches or longer. No more than one (1) bird may be taken per day.

Sam you know you cannot hit a deer at 6 yards with your see the spot system. I bet you are one of those trouble making bow canters from a tree stand as well.

Thanks for the info Jimmy.

I am dean, heck I missed one this evening at 100 yds. Will go check in the morning and see if there is any blood? I looked briefly but will take the Jack Russell in the morning and look some more. Was Cheating and used an old Russian Mosin.

Besides dean, I was already in a dream world but had a good crispy sight picture and trigger press. Extreme downhill but aimed in the lower third, who knows, probably was shaking like a hound trying to pass a peach seed! lol

Well done

"10-15 yards, see the spot, BAMMMMMMMM! Meat. Good ole Kentucky! Wish we had fall archery turkey here.

Shotgun Archery Crossbow Oct. 27 - Nov. 2 and Dec. 1-7, 2018 Sept. 1, 2018 - Jan. 21, 2019 Oct. 1-21 and Nov. 10 - Dec. 31, 2018 BAG LIMITS Four birds total, no more than two (2) of which may be taken with a shotgun. No more than one (1) bird may have a beard length of three (3) inches or longer. No more than one (1) bird may be taken per day."

Sam, I'm not being a horse's rear end, but I don't understand your post. What does this have to do with the thread at all?

Good season Jimmy.>>>>>>>>>>---------------->sammo

Great video. I tried that once with a toothpick and I had good results. I may have to try the pencil suggestion with my with my new longbow, thanks for posting this.

I bet doing it for a while will lesson the learning curve of a more precise shot placement.

[[[ I bet doing it for a while will lesson the learning curve of a more precise shot placement. ]]]

It actually is a very good training tool. As zetabow mentioned above - even when you remove the marks, your sight picture remains trained to the spots where they were located.

Rick

I would love to try this method , but can't reference off my arrow tip. I have never been able to get the arrow directly under my eye (I shoot split, but couldn't do it 3 under either) I can't at full draw get the arrow point directly on the target (it is always to the side). I started out as instinctive and just ignoring the arrow all together. I wanted to improve so I went to more the way Roger Rothhaar described in Masters of the Barebow. I shoot a vertical bow and tilt my head as far over the arrow as I can and look down the arrow as it is pointed at the target like a laser beam. Even with the arrow at the side of my vision I can follow down the arrow shaft and see where the arrow should intersect with the spot I want to hit. And there is a gap there as well and depending on the bow and arrow set up it is has various sizes at 10, 15, 20, etc. yards. At about 30 yards the arrow is still off to the side, but is level with the the spot I want to hit. I focus on the arrow, but also see the spot I want to hit (split vision?). After enough shooting the gaps became almost subconscious. It works better for me than instinctive, but still not as consistently accurate as using the point to aim, especially at 30 yards and beyond.

Really good presentation Jimmy.

Bob Gordon used a sight to hunt with and then for 3D he gapped at bow from memory.

My anchor is so high and nock adjusted so that my point on is 20 yards off the tip of the arrow so I accomplished the same thing with no marks.

This is old hand knowledge really, to hap at the bow and actually, that is all a sight shooter is doing is gapping at the bow.

If you gap at target this is not gonna work well for you unless you just relearn to forget gapping with the arrow and focusing on the bow sight window or using string blur to put the string in a reference point on the bows sight window for consistency.

Nothing new under the Sun but for those who did not know it is knowledge.

For me, I do not want any more stuff to remember and that is what I meant when I said 0-15 I just put the arrow on the spot and shoot.

I also just meant by my mention of Kentucky because we do not have an archery turkey season in Arkansas and I wish we did.

I actually grew up part of my young years in Kentucky and went to school at the now-closed Woodstock elementary.

I have ken folks in Kentucky and love the state. My mother was born in Bell County and I have Confederate soldiers in my lineage.

I certainly hope this makes a better explanation for any who might have had negative thoughts about my brevity post put that seems to be a convenient way to show the courtesy of a reply and move on showing that it was read.

Peace

Great tip Jimmy, a must see for any traditional shooter.

As a gap shooter myself, I cringed when you mentioned the 22" at the beginning of the video. You see, I place no distance value on where my point rests in relationship to the target. I suspect too many people err in finding that point, rather than focus on the target itself. It doesn't sound like you put a mark on all your bows, is that right? But for the newbie, the tip is a great aid.

As you, I hold at anchor for the purpose of aiming. Without shoulder strengthening exercises, IMHO, that ability is compromised, and where I find many beginners lacking. I've heard some say that shooting is their exercise and I use to think that way also, but as years were added to me, that has not been helpful for me. A balanced set of shoulder muscles have made a great improvement in my ability to anchor properly.

I really enjoyed the video and thank you for providing help for others who enjoy or love our sport.

Ronin, I shoot split all the time, short or long, and have no trouble referencing the arrow when needed. For me that is a pretty long shot though..past 55 yards.

I started my archery/hunting, et al, by shooting a vertical bow and learned those basic tenets of form and function. My elementary school teacher, Mrs. Brannon, always said, "can't never tried". I've never forgot that because it's true 99% of the time. I can reference that arrow either vertical or canted. It can be done.

Ronin, I shoot split all the time, short or long, and have no trouble referencing the arrow when needed. For me that is a pretty long shot though..past 55 yards.

I started my archery/hunting, et al, by shooting a vertical bow and learned those basic tenets of form and function. My elementary school teacher, Mrs. Brannon, always said, "can't never tried". I've never forgot that because it's true 99% of the time. I can reference that arrow either vertical or canted. It can be done.

Ronin, PM sent.

I can't not reference my arrow.

Even when anchoring under my chin, or canted. It's just always there, so I use it to my advantage.

Rick

I am the same Rick. I do not need or want any other reference because I have adjusted my anchor point and bow arrow length to use the sight right in front of me, the arrow.

I had trouble getting to this point and adjusted my anchor so the string is to the right of my eye allowing me to anchor further back like Howard Hill did.

Anchoring with the string to the right of my eye allows me to have consistent side to side with the string and eliminates the need to use string blur.

While I have let every deer that came by tree stands pass, i have shot dozens squirrels and rabbits from tree stands, a few pheasants and even a few quail. Those downward short shots are not that difficult. With my standard split middle finger lined just past the corner of the mouth, i role the bow over lean into the shot a bit, pick the spot and shoot. I do get a feel for where the arrow is in relation to the shot, but it is mostly just a point and shoot situation. Most guys can get close to tennis ball sized groups in that situation. I don't why it needs to get fo complicated.

dean until I see some headshots on quail I just have to tell you that you need lessons from Frisky, a true legend, and head shooter supreme.

Hedgehunter - it's merely a way to help make people more accurate. Like you so adamantly noted when 2bears attributed his success to fixed crawl, which he personally discovered on my YouTube site, I didn't make this up. It's been around forever. I'm just sharing a tried and true method - trying to help people enjoy the sport. It's not for everyone. Instead of offering three more ways to change your PO on my thread, I'd encourage you to start your own thread or make videos to share.

It would take the rest of the year to explain all the assumptions you make in that post. The light arrow is not the only thing contributing to that large gap. Before you posted here on Leatherwall, we painfully endured years of light vs. heavy arrow debates. I am not going to reopen those discussions.

My anchor is where it is because that's where I shoot most consistently. If you assume I have not found the best anchor for me after all these years and relatively good success hunting as well as tournaments then I'm not sure what to say. I actually shoot an aluminum 2016 Easton Legacy arrow in that same bow. It weights just shy of 600 grains. Guess what the gap is...20" @ 20 yards. If you want an explanation of the arrow trajectory and the compromises made between a fast flat arrow and a slow arrow that arches more slowly to the target then watch my video, The Gap Compromise. I have embedded the video for you in the post below.

I am not sure what I've done to offend you, but you seem spring loaded to the negative with everything I post of late. You don't need to feel compelled to comment on any of my posts. Not sure who asked you to watch this, but I'll cut to the chase. I took a LW break a few years back because it seemed that every time I got on here I ended up frustrated with the negativity and closed minds. You know a closed mind is an enigma, nothing ever gets in, but strange things are always coming out.

I think I liked the LW break better. So, I'll move on out of your way.

Jimmy, i began using the fixed crawl sometime ago after seeing your video. Next to Arne Moe's help with my form this has really brought my shooting to another level. It has really helped my shooting in the woods.

Unfortunately the 3d shoots i attend dictate finger to arrow, so i solved that with 35" arrows to tighten my gap. I had rried gapping at the riser as your video shows, but did revisit it yesterday between hunts. I believe this will serve me well at the 3d shoots next year. I have found index finger near mouth is as high of an anchor that i can pull off and still get proper back tension so gapping at the target without the long arrow didn't work for me. This is another good option. Thanks for the great videos and explanations. They really do help some of us.

Jimmy, your gap compromise video is one of the best videos on the subject. What most don't understand is that if you were shooting using instinctive aiming to hit the target, the arrow will be in the same position if you were shooting using gap method. The aiming method can't change the arrow trajectory if you execute the same shot at same target at the same distance.

Excellent post Jimmy, and ignore the naysayers, negative people are always around and usually "know it all"! Thanks and shooting!

Jimmy, most of us here enjoy the videos and help, dont let a few rude blowhards that run their mouth constantly about everything ruin it for everyone else.

I agree with kwikdraw on the "know it alls"

The irony is they don't know they are coming across as know it alls

Anyway. Love jimmys videos and his contributions to archery

I agree with kwikdraw on the "know it alls"

The irony is they don't know they are coming across as know it alls

Anyway. Love jimmys videos and his contributions to archery

Funny how some of the know it alls only know it all unless one of their heros post and then they're all supportive.

“The only disadvantage I can see is that it may not work for those of us who cant the bow. Not sure that the angle of the bow will be consistent enough that a mark on the riser will alway be at the same point. Will have to give it a try.”

Do! I haven’t had time to watch the Vid, but just a thought....

The marks will allow you to set your gap correctly. If you then cant your bow, the correct gap between your point and the mark doesn’t change. You’ll have to have solid form & anchor to lock in the hold and maintain it while you tip the bow to the side, but if you can do that, then this technique could be good for you. Just have to make sure that the bow rotates around the axis of the arrow, or you’ll have to remember what the sight picture looked like and recreate it.

FWIW, it can be a big help to learn to shoot with a vertical bow on long shots so that you can look through the string. It’s blurrier than a peep, but seems to work OK at 70 & 90 meters....

Therifleman, what supplier provides 35" arrows? Or you were talking about wood arrows?

Hi Draven, i had actually hot glued a 7" section of 1816 to a full length ce predator ii with a two inch over lap. I did this just to see how much the length would reduce my gap. So far these arrows have held up well to 3d shoots, some stumping and squirrel hunting. I didn't expect that they would--- here's one in action.

2216's on a CE 150.

Nice post.

Thank you Therifleman, it's a smart way of playing around. I just don't shoot aluminum too often, so I am mostly limited to 31" carbons

"If I cant (angle) the bow, is this system (riser sighting) basically not applicable? I tried it out at the range and couldn't get it to work, especially with kneeling or sitting shots common while hunting, because they require different canting angles, being closer to the ground, especially if you're in brush to camoflage yourself"

I cant the bow and the single thing that will alter the aiming system per se is your consistency in canting the bow. You are the one who decides where the arrow should be in relation with the target at a specific distance, nobody else. It's still trial and error but with a shorter period of time to get it right.

PS In theory it is saying that canting the bow around the arrow shouldn't alter the gap, but when shooting a longbow who's cut before center the cant will alter the gap.

PS In theory it is said that canting the bow around the arrow shouldn't alter the gap, but when shooting a longbow who's cut before center the cant will alter the gap.

Canting only changes the gap if in doing so one changes the location of the dominant eye relative to the back of the arrow. When one keeps the eye in the same location (side to side and distance above the arrow) the gap won;t change. When one cants the head with the bow, as is stressed by some, both the gap and the windage will be affected.

Elderly OCR - Not the wrong eye. Right handed shooter, right eye dominate. Just can not get the point on target. Still able to reference the arrow, just not directly under my eye.

George Stout - I must not have explained it properly. I went from not consciously referencing the arrow (instinctive) to consciously referencing the arrow. I more or less look down a long length of the arrow and imagine where the arrow would intercept the target horizontally. I just have not been able to get the arrow directly under my eye to use the point on target for real gap shooting. Well, that is not completely true- I did try moving my anchor to a new spot and it worked, but it required me to start anchoring in front of my face and drawing closer to 27" instead of my normal 30.5" on the bow.

Draven if you have your gaps memorized holding the bow vertically, when you cant it will make you shoot lower and to the right.

Sam, I really doubt there are people that stupid out there and I don't remember where I said something different. In theory the cant shouldn't affect anything but in reality the moment the plane created by the bow hand and back of the string hand is beyond the natural alignment a subtle difference will affect the arrow position in relation with the eye ---> affecting the perception of the arrow in relation with the target aka the gap. Establishing the relation between your form and what you want to achieve using a conscious aiming system is part of trial-error individual learning. There is no recipe you can take and use it.

OK.

I have a similar situation as Ronin. My eyes are set pretty close to the center of my head, so anything much farther back than my chin wont line up. You learn to deal with a short draw or a horizontal gap. For decades I shot a 63# bow with a 25 1/2" draw, now I'm getting back in after a few years absence and cant pull that anymore so I'm working on a 45# bow but a 29" draw, and learning my horizontal gaps.

Gents, Canting the bow will move the arrow, but that doesn't mean that the marks do not work.

When we cant the bow, and I do so with several of my bows, it changes the plane in which paradox occurs. When the bow is vertical, paradox occurs horizontally, which will affect left to right impacts.

A canted bow makes paradox occurs more at an angle. That's why people hitting left can cant the bow and move the arrow impact right.

Still, if you cant the bow the same way, you can mark the riser for vertical gap just like anyone else.

You beat me to it Jimmy.

That's why a canted bow often lends itself to confusion between whether an off tune is nocking point, or shaft spine issues.

I've seen folks chase nock point placement all over the place, when their problem was shaft spine, and vice versa.

Rick

What is not yet quite said is a marked riser while canted will give you just the height for the arrow for the distance, the shooter must remember visually the horizontal gap between riser mark and the place he wants to hit to make it work - and this is variable with the distance. That’s why gapping at the riser is not quite handy when you cant the bow - actually is the worst method IMO. Use the gap at target when canting, it saves you from a lot of headache.

Thanks Jimmy Blackmon. I always learn loads from your videos.

Stix - thus the predicament with canting the bow. That's why I argue against it for target shooting. Reduce the variables...do you cant exactly the same each time? No. It's impossible to do it exactly the same and as distance increases the same can changes arrow impact.

"Reduce the variables...do you cant exactly the same each time? No. It's impossible to do it exactly the same ..."

Actually this is not true based on my experience since my cant is result of my natural way I grip the bow and the finger pressure on the string.

And I think you wouldn't hold the bow straight every time unless there is the direct relation of the above that make you hold the bow straight at full draw.

"I think the system you have in the video is a ezcellent way to improve target accuracy, but when hunting, conditions arise that will make this system unusable."

In any uncontrolled situation your brain will know what you have to do if you know everything you need to know in controlled situation. Jimmy is using the "gap compromise point" to cover 10 yards distance difference and send the arrow in kill zone. Different angle of the cant will keep your arrow in the same "compromise" if you trained from that position.

Draven and Stix congrats - both incorrect. ;-)

Identical angles vs. perpendicular bow - which is more consistent?

Stix - I hunt a bit. Every time I shoot a deer I draw the bow, I anchor and see the arrow as well as the point I want to hit. I see the mark the arrow the shelf etc. Too easy.

Which part is incorrect Jimmy? The one that says you hold your bow straight because your way you grip the bow and the finger pressure on the string?

Or the one that says that in uncontrolled situation your quality of training in controlled environment will save you?

Oh Draven...

I think I can hold my bow perpendicular to planet earth more times than not vs. cant my bow at a muscle memory degree.

That's all.

Does it make a difference at 10 yards? No. But does it make a difference over 30 targets in a day of tourney? Yes. It will cost me 2-10 points.

That fact alone tells me that I am more consistent when I hold the bow straight up and down vs. at an angle that "feels right."

At the end of the day do I care if you cant your bow? No. I cant some of my self bows because it gets me on target at 15 yards.

I was always taught to find my shot and I found it and it is canted. At the end of the day I care less how the others are shooting. The cant gets me on target at 50 or 80 meters so whatever works for anybody is the single thing that matters.

There are always some who are set in their ways.

narrow-minded:having or showing a prejudiced mind, as persons or opinions; biased. not receptive to new ideas; having a closed mind.

I had been shooting for over 50 years, I thought I knew what I worked for me and what didn't. Then, I attended one of Rod Jenkin's shooting clinic, primarily just so we would have enough shooters to fill the class, we set up the class to help a friend with target panic. i attended thinking it would be of no help for me. But, I paid attention and decided that since I spent the money to attend, I'd give it a fair chance. It turns out to be the best thing I ever did for my shooting. At my mid 60's I finally learned the right way to shoot.

Don't be narrow minded, you might learn to shoot better.

When canting a bow out of tree stand everything has to bend to go along with the position. Many people shoot high and wide when they do not can't shooting steeply downward. It all a matter of eye to alignment and and clearance. I was so bad at it years ago with my bows with sights, that i didn't dare to shoot, even though i was a very good shot with the sights on level ground.

I prefer to shoot with a vertical bow, and yes vertical is the most consistent (at least for me) way of doing it.

That don't men I don't, or won't cant when I need to, but my tuning completely revolves around the vertical bow, and the good thing about that is - when I get tuned the cant has little (very little to none) impact on my accuracy at hunting distances.

YMMV

Rick

Rick you said something worth to remember: tune as you shoot and the variance will not affect you much.

PS Find the aiming system that works best for you - this means try them all. If you found out that using the arrow is helping you, develop your own way if you think your shooting conditions are not always ideal. And train for it.

Amen Draven. Words of wisdom.

Draven,

"What is not yet quite said is a marked riser while canted will give you just the height for the arrow for the distance, the shooter must remember visually the horizontal gap between riser mark and the place he wants to hit to make it work - and this is variable with the distance. That’s why gapping at the riser is not quite handy when you cant the bow - actually is the worst method IMO. Use the gap at target when canting, it saves you from a lot of headache."

I understand what you're saying, but this system isn't gap shooting. It's sight shooting, basically with the sight moved all the way into the riser. A great way to shoot, old as dirt and very effective, but not gapping.

Gapping at the bow is simply visualizing the gap as a small measurement at the bow, as if the target was sitting directly above the tip of the arrow. A 16" gap at the target may only be a 11/16" gap at the bow. I find most folks can visualize 11/16" above the tip of their arrow much easier than trying to figure out what constitutes 16" below a squirrel on a tree branch 20 yards away.

JRW, the discussion ended in the marking the riser which in the end is sight shooting without having a sight. "Gapping at the riser" is a sight shooting system.

IF the marks are done on the riser.

PS I use gap at the riser above point on on my bows, but is mostly positioning the shelf in relation with the target when the point of the arrow is in the sky or above the target, in the trees.

Stix,

"If you change the angle of the canted bow, it basically changes your elevation because the lines will move up or down depending on if you make the canted angle higher or lower."

Absolutely correct. With the bow held vertical, the mark is at its highest point above the tip of the arrow. As the cant is increased, that vertical distance decreases and the mark moves to the side (right for right-handed, left for left-handed). At some point just shy of a 90 degree cant, the mark will be at the same elevation as the tip of the arrow.

The thing about aiming systems is that none of them are perfect. They all have advantages and disadvantages. It's up to the archer to weigh them and decide which best suits his/her needs.

"The thing about aiming systems is that none of them are perfect. They all have advantages and disadvantages. It's up to the archer to weigh them and decide which best suits his/her needs."

That's the reality. Without shooting you can't learn this and overcome the disadvantages.

The only reference that should ever be referred to is the animals anatomy. Learn that and you will know where to aim any angle the critter stands to you. All you have to do then is be able to shoot at the spot you pick out that will clean kill them.

AND TO TELL YOU WHAT! MAYBE YOU DO HIT THE SPOT YOU LOOKED BUT YOU LOOKED AT THE WRONG SPOT ON THE CRITTER? YOU HIT WHERE YOU AIMED BUT IT WASN'T THE RIGHT SPOT OR THE ANIMAL MAY HAVE MOVED AND YOU DIDN'T CALCULATE ON THAT?

I don't see how targets will ever take the place of live animals. I think it's impossible the target don't move and you have no chance to realign its just stand there unlike an animal that moves you might have to readjust after you thought when animal moved. The target many times already has holes in it or another arrows as well to use as a aimpoint. Or targets are shot up and you aim there? LOL

You can't take a target shooter off the target mentality but you can take a killer off his game if he don't understand ANATOMY! He won't get the game unless its a lucky shot and many claim fame to them.LOL

Relative to the sun not the target) and even if you believe that you are holding your bow vertically, you are still canting your bow by 23.44 degrees which is how much the earth is tilted.

Sorry. Could not resist.

Carry on.

Jawge

Jimmy, you can't teach these old dogs anything, they will figure out something to argue about.

I have shot that way using tape and it works, after about a thousand arrows you can take the tape off.

Thanks for the help and info, if someone will listen and try it instead of knocking it down, it really does work very well.

I don't understand why there are those who will nay say, or argue against such methods.

If you don't like it, and/or you can't make it work for you, then leave it alone, because there are those who can & do quite well.

Jimmy didn't start this topic to insinuate this method is the end all be all of accuracy. He simply offered it as an "option" for those who might be interested in increasing their accuracy, or at least try to.

I don't mean this as an insult to anyone, but if I were to be put in a position to have to gamble on Jimmy's, or Jason's shooting abilities (for target or hunting), against those of most others, my money would be on those two every time. I might even lose the bet, but day in & day out the law of averages would definitely be in my favor.

Rick

[[[ "Youd loose that bet Rick.

HH~" ]]]

Note where I said most.

I know there are some great shooters out there, but guess what, those two are among them, and I'm not just guessing about it.

Rick

Rick,

There are still some folks who don't think conscious aiming systems work in the hunting woods. :)

LOL. "Cocky for a starving pilgrim."

Sorry, that's just what came to mind as I read the last few comments.

10 4 on that Elderly OCR

It is easy, just get a simple kids compass and a pencil attached and spin it on paper, The radius will go in a circle.

If you tune your bow vertically, the marks will work well for yardage if you have consistent form.

String blur or string spliced with the sight window is a second check.

If you cant, you will need to cant the same amount each time.

Canting usually is an automatic thing that may have you canting more up close and less further away.

If you are a hole-burner, you will need to break your focus long enough to confirm the yardage by looking at the riser marks, then back burning.>>>>>>>>---------------->sammo

Stix - it will certainly work. Think about it this way. Let's say you cant the bow the same way each time (same angle). The arrow is going through paradox the same each time, so it's consistent. Your mark is simply telling you at what height to hold the point of the arrow. Canted the mark will seem much farther from the target, so that may be an issue. Even with my riser vertical it seems a long way from the target. Yes, it will work if you want to try it.

Again, this is most helpful on those close shots for people with large gaps. When we aim at a deer we want to see that arrow point close. It's hard when your point is down below the hooves of the deer. I just look at the spot I want to hit, make sure my point is directly below it (in line), then I can see if that white mark is even with the spot or above it. I'm never below it.

Now, I will add that I received an email from a guy on YouTube who asked why I would do this when I shoot fixed crawl so well. I only made that video and shot it for about two weeks. The purpose of my videos is to show techniques, offer options for other archers. That's all.

Some folks clearly do not need help. They have all the answers, so I'm not sure why they feel compelled to continue adding on others threads. I suppose no one comments on their threads so they try to derail other threads to express what they can't contain - their opinion.

I'm sure HH was kidding in his response about the bet thing above. Jason has proven for years that he is exactly what Rick said - better than most. In fact, in the top 5% globally I'd say. It's easy to look up results on IBO, NFAA, IFAA, etc. to make this a non-discussion. You can't hide results on the Internet ;-). Mine are out there too. I last shot head-to-head with Jason several years ago at IBO in RU. He beat me.

Jason has done well, a reputable archer for sure!

Jimmy,

"I last shot head-to-head with Jason several years ago at IBO in RU. He beat me."

Sometimes it helps to punch a tree. :)

I seem to remember the lead changing a few times that day (not that I should have been paying attention to score cards). If we'd have shot 10 more targets I'm sure the podium would have looked very different.

Soooo I don't see how this could possibly work if I had to shoot hanging upside down off a branch even without chanting my bow. Thanks Jimmy along with the rest of you with real talent that try to help people out here . It truly is appreciated , and thankyou keyboard gurus for the humor trying to match up.

Stix - if you are shooting 18 yards and in the cant isn't going to move the arrow that much. Just go out and experiment with it if you are interested in seeing how it does for you.

Great video, Jimmy! As always, thanks for sharing.

"Just to agree with you that it is a great aiming method to improve your accuracy but only in a situation where you can guarantee that your form will be consistent shot after shot."

If you can't guarantee that your form will be consistent you have two options:

1. Don't take that shot

2. Go out and put yourself in the worst situation you can imagine taking the shot and verify the difference. Once you know the difference you will know how to compensate for "unusual" circumstances.

People are always looking for a mechanical guaranteed short cut. I have no arguments with how anyone wants to do things, but not all mechanical aiming methods fit the needs of the the shooter. Some shooters tailor their hunting methods to match the restrictions of their shooting style, which is understandable. The more argument threads about how to hit the broad side of a barn at close range, the more the wisdom of Howard Hill makes sense.

dean, you could not hit a quail in the head with the best beanshooter ever made and I can tell you why. It is because you are always taking shots into the sun and the glare is blinding you, not to mention your absent mindedness to mention that marble collectors follow you around all the time. >>>>>>-------->

Sam when I get the chance, I am going shoot you in the ass with my most powerful slingshot. I will be sporting about it and give you a head start. That one has the small pouch, it only shoots the 3/16" bearings.

You fellows are a hoot, and I wish we were at deer camp with a modest fire going, and a couple old chairs set out around it. Then we could chew the fat and shoot the breeze all proper like.

The discussion about conscious vs subconscious has been around since way before Sigmund Freud ever set pen to paper and we probably ain't gonna resolve it here.

It comes down to trying a few things and having 'faith' in what's working well for you. And if you have a problem (a 'crisis of faith') then maybe do a little re-thinking.

I do know one thing, it's nice to have a few alternatives in your 'kit'.

dean, You are getting nothing but a bundle of switches for Xmas cause you been naughty. Bring your little beanshooter on son!

7 year old neighbor kid wanted to show his da how he could shoot a wrist rocket. Dainty Darren, his fluffy father of five dad, came over to see. At about 15 yards, shooting at a pop can he hauled over, young Devin pulled it past his ear to get all the power he could and 'bam', the pop can went flying. Darren walked up to the pop can, looking a little stunned. The ball bearing went straight through it. Then he said, "That damn thing is more dangerous than a bb gun. I couldn't even see the ball fly."

I guarantee ya! What aiming method was the kid using? lol

I have them hold the sling shot horizontal and use the top post as a starting point. Indirect secondary aiming.

You cannot help but tilt with the World on its axis.

Mr. Blackmon, thanks for the tip. I use something similar but don't use a mark on the sight window. I have my own FUBAR method, lol. I took my deer at 37 paces on the ground this year. I failed in running my shot properly but I hit my anchor so every bit of that tasty deer is a bit of humble pie.

If you are going to shoot a bow in a fixed position that is nearly or is vertical, wouldn't a bow sight be a simpler and more repeatable method? Drawing lines on a bow is still a bow sight, just not a very good one that is off to the side. Jimmy has us playing a triangulation game with two variables. My 66 year old wife is scared of heights, this year I suggested a low 10' ladder stand, just to claim a spot on a piece of public land. I got her to go up the stand, she crawled up and came right back down, "there happy, a##hole?" "No, you have to shot from up there." She did it again, this time turned around and sat down. i delivered her Cheetah Hill and an arrow and put the small deer target about 18 yards from the tree. I turned and was walking away from the deer target to give some pointers, she laid the bow over and 'bam' she shot the deer target in the heart. "Screw it I am not doing this." She climbed back to earth. I hate sitting on tree stands myself, but shooting a bow from one is not as difficult as some people make it. I have a convenient tree in my yard for the guys to practice from a ladder stand that my son left here. That was my wife's first and probably final attempt.

Most ASL shooters don't need any aiming device for up to 20 yards, maybe I should invent a sight just for ASL shooters that need something for the longer than 20 yards shots, when most hold the bow a little more up and down. a shorter 25 or 30 yard pin and then a further our 40 or 45 yard pin. The bow can be canted a bit, just like always. You don't need a pin for longer than that's because the crown of the top of the head becomes the sight pin.

LOL - dean - I don't have you doing anything. I'm not trying to convince anyone to use this method. I'm just providing options. That's all. A sight is fine too. I have a close friend that has killed over 100 deer with a recurve. He has two pins on his bow. The deer don't seem to care and neither does he.

ASL's can be shot vertically quite well, just as thousands of people did with them before the ACM (American Canted Method) happened. My Ol' Buck works best for me in a vertical mode, and that is how I hunted with him. And he also works well in a canted mode, as others can attest to, degrees of cant notwithstanding.

Thank you Jimmy Blackmon for taking up your valuable time to help a few here who actually will appreciate it.

I know, I really don't care how anyone aims, whatever works for them works.

Not Jimmy but no, he holds and aims. Instinctive is usually a wind-up draw like throwing a ball and shooting quickly in a cadence.

No idea. Only Rick knows how he shoots.

An ASL can be shot vertically, kind of awkward thing to do with the neck if the anchor is past the corner of the mouth like Hill did. It can also be shot arrow side down which i did on a big doe that came from my left and behind me when I was resting on a steep hillside. Or it be shot canted when shooting on a low stool to keep the bottom limb tip from hitting the ground or low obstacles. Canting improves the arrow relationship position to the eye when shooting down from a tree stand. Those that do not fully understand or appreciate the Hill system don't get it, or don't want to get it.

Elderly, at least you pick on others as you do me so you are an equal opportunistic sort.>>>>>>--------->sammo

Years and years ago we got a few silver dollar sized tin or aluminum coins commemorating archery in the olympics. i other stuff to do so no hunting today, but i did have time to do leaves and blowout my rain gutters. My neighbor sis the same this afternoon. In his gutter on the opposite side of his house was one of those coins with a bend and an arrow ding in it. I don't remember if I picked a secondary aiming point or shot instinctive, but i do remember one that disappeared and no one saw it fly. He did not live there that many years ago and i said nothing on how such a thing found its way to his gutter on the front side of his house. i did not tell him that bend and ding came from me shooting it.

((( Thank you Jimmy Blackmon for taking up your valuable time to help a few here who actually will appreciate it. )))

Amen

And thank you, Jimmy

Gents - for the critics ---Quack ---water off a duck's back.

When I began this journey of free videos to help others -over 15 years ago now - I knew there would be those who would not accept or understand that I'm just presenting options. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Shoot the way you want to shoot.

As my videos show, I recall the days when no one would share anything. I wanted to open that aperture. Share everything I could with everyone.

Jimmy, you do a great job, thanks for all your info, Peter.

Great tip here. I've been doing exactly the same thing for a couple of years. I've found that I can cut very thin strips off a piece of white vinyl arrow wrap to use for the "pin". They are water-proof and stick very well to the riser.

Actually, I knew of guys doing way back in the 60s, they were all shooting split finger. Some of them did it because they did want to drill holes in their new bows for a multi pin bow sight. others tried and found that it helped them and went to a bow sight and set the pins where the pencil marks on their bows were at.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with shooting threads except getting torched.>>>>>>>>===========>sambambalam,

The thing that i see wrong with many of these aiming procedures is that they are not much help with fast shots and shots at moving game. I have the new book coming from Jerry Hill, there may be a few aiming tips in there that you guys can fight over as well.

Be keepin an eye out for it dean.

I love the guys who say you can't shoot a vertical bow under quick shooting conditions in the woods. Bullcrap! It can be done and has been done! If you can't personally do something, that doesn't mean others can't.

I never shot a canted bow until the 1980s and I've killed running rabbits and even hit some flying birds, and a whole lot of thrown discs by shooting a vertical bow...which is how I learned in the first place. You can chirp all day that it can't be done, but the fact is that you are either repeating what someone else said, or you just can't do it yourself.

It's also 'Crap' that target archers and field archers can't be good hunters, and a few still think that. Plenty of them, actually any target or field archer who hunts, will be a equally good on animals. There's plenty of historic proof to prove that going back to the 1800's. But history be-damned here.

Jimmy started a thread to help those who could use it, not to sate egos of those who have it all mastered in their own minds.

"I love the guys who say you can't shoot a vertical bow under quick shooting conditions in the woods. Bullcrap! It can be done and has been done! If you can't personally do something, that doesn't mean others can't"

Let's see....Art Young, Saxton Pope, Will Compton, Myles Keller (even with sights), Chris Brackett (sights AND a compound heaven forbid), Jim Ploen, and the list goes on.

Jimmy B. thanks for posting this... I will be trying this method. I appreciate the shooting tips. These kind of posts are why I keep coming back to LW.

JW

I will take any idea, I don't care if it has been beaten to death, it is good to keep bringing these things up because we have new people that haven't heard it before and us old guys whose memories don't work past a day at a time. so be a little more withholding with your comments, just look at something else if it seems boring to you.

Crap, I'm starting to sound like Phil.....Ha!Ha!

Thanks folks.

"The Leatherwall is for fun, who cares how anyone shoots!"quote

George you can hold a bow vertical all you want, I don't care. I don't even care if you can shoot pheasants out of the air with a vertical bow. Canting the bow for many peoples favored anchor position, puts the eye over the arrow in a more ergonomic position for the neck. However, I did find the need to trim the bill on my MAGA cap for string clearance.

Now I am mad, I just spilled tea on my 'Hilary For Prison' shirt.

dean, I just took a walk and saw a spike buck bedded. He got up, walked 50 yards and stared. I went to the house and got a couple apples and went to his bed and sliced them up. A half hour later I am watching him eat them through bino's. lol

Legal here till January 1. Corn, rice bran, apples and produce.Legal to feed them after that too, just no hunting in the area. I feed birds squirrels and deer all year round. Hope the G&F people come and visit me anytime.

Great video Jimmy! Who's the guy with the beard?

There should be a MIPA, make Iowa primitive again. It is no secret that I ambushing for leave no trace use of all of Iowa public hunting areas. Meaning you leave what you came in with. We have it for duck hunters, it is way past time to have it for deer hunters, that includes game cameras, portable blinds and tree stands. If the dumbocrits get their way, you will be lucky if you are allowed to a sling shot after 2020.

Interesting idea. As an instructor I feel it’s important to at least understand dif ways/ideas within reason. Today I got home early and tried the method. Gotta be honest it’s very “mechanical”, it’s about like shooting a compound but there’s guys afraid to try styks. This method could get em relatively quickly to obtain accuracy providing they have good form making things repeatable. It absolutely works

I'm not smart enough to even understand it. Too much physics and references for me. Another thing: I don't remember arrow shafts being longer that the archer's draw length until carbons came out when all the rage was lengthening the arrow to get at the correct spine. My shafts are cut to my drawl length and I've never found myself overdrawing to where the rear of the broadhead touches my hand or the riser. I was told many decades ago when I was first getting into shooting, still a teenager, when I was told by everyone to make my shafts a little bit longer so that when I got excited I wouldn't cut my bow hand by over drawing. I never did understand that either. I think it's likely I don't understand carbon arrows at all. Neither do I understand my anchor point be somewhere different than it is for every shot. There's got to me more to this aiming, gapping, and marking, and the point of the arrow than I understand, or want to. Too much is taken from the experience by adding weird techniques. Although one day I did experiment with a single sight pin, and it worked well, but that just lasted the one day. For me, and for 55 years, I just draw the bow, cant it at the same time, look at the target and shoot it. Many will say that I am indeed seeing the arrow, the arrow point, and a gap; maybe so, but I never see that in my brain. I am an archer, not a scientist.

But wait - I'm not undermining the points and successes shown here. If you like that kind of thing, go for it and still be my friend. Just saying I don't really get it.

[[[ "This method could get em relatively quickly to obtain accuracy providing they have good form making things repeatable. It absolutely works." ]]]

Yep, and while it is working, it is training their "minds eye" sight picture to a point where they will often not need the marks any longer.

[[[ "Another thing: I don't remember arrow shafts being longer that the archer's draw length until carbons came out when all the rage was lengthening the arrow to get at the correct spine." ]]]

Arrow length does not revolve around just getting a good dynamic spine & tune. There are a couple of things in play for a lot of us.

I shoot 3 under, but I cut all my arrows (carbon or otherwise) longer than my draw length, so I don't have a 75 yard point on. Leaving them longer gets my point on closer to 30 yards, which is much more conducive to the majority of shooting I do.

That said - I can cut any of them to be just long enough to accommodate my draw length, and get them to tune/fly perfectly. I just have to select the right shaft for the length I want/need, and I'm good to go.

Rick

With all of this implied aiming, I really don't understand why bow sights are not more popular.

"With all of this implied aiming, I really don't understand why bow sights are not more popular."

I already have five of them in my quiver. :)

We have a couple of guys that went to the Das aperture sights, one because he had to because of an eye condition, the other because the first one was out shooting him. He says that he can hold it steadier because he is looking through the sight at the target, instead of covering the target with a pin. One my early mentors always said to aim through the sight, not at it. That is really not that much different than Hill stating to never look at the arrow and keep the eyes focused the target. To go back to the original op video, it was done way back in the 60s like that and almost all of those shooters went to bow sights. If one has enough control to do as the op suggests, a bow sight would be a step simpler. I do quite well with split/stinctive, instinctive mostly out to 30 yards or so and secondary 'imaginary' aiming point after that. A bow sight would look funny on an ASL Berry or Sunset Hill. But like toehold Seinfeld show, 'not that there is anything wrong with that'.

Well done big Jimmy B. Thank you! Keep up the good work.

Many shoot a bow vertical, others like me cant their bow. There is no right or wrong, do what works for you under your conditions,... and comfort.

Jerry Hill's book is out as of Howard Hill's birthday. Some would day not big enough, what ever. My wife jumped all over me because Jerry's perspective and what I have been preaching at her for 46 years suddenly came together. My super shot son came home for Thanksgiving, we have been eating venison. He read the book, he went out with one my bows to try out what he read. He found it to be very helpful in following things the way Jerry explained in his own words. In just a few dozen shots he was packing arrows tight from 20 yards for several ends in a row. He then said. "It is possible to get better than baseball groups." A slight variant from what his normal process was, but in that variant of coming on target is where the five inch group that was, to him ripping up my good set of arrows for that bow.

Now I would like to see a detailed description of how Jerry sharpened broad heads.

Ok I gave this method a try today. Ive gotta say it is working pretty well and eliminates any of the tuning variances ive encountered with the crawl. At 3 under my gap is 23" at 15 yards. After calculating height at the target as in Jimmy's video, i put a piece of painters tape on the riser and after some adjustments, shot these arrows at 15 yards. I'm hoping that by the next 3d season i will be able to take the tape off and have my sight picture ingrained. Thanks again!

Awesome video. It’s even better that you take the time to make these videos to try to help fellow archers for no reason other than to help. I shot instinctively for many years and did ok on game but I had a string of a few years that were simply unacceptable with both misses at really big bucks as well as a few woundings. It was hard to do but I decided that I needed to put my ego aside and figure out a better way. I picked up a compound for two years. I killed a pile of deer with it including two P&Y bucks all the while still shooting my recurves at targets. After reflecting on my second season with the compound I realized that the only thing I really liked about it was the damn pin! Hated the release, hated carrying it, etc. Anout this time I was also looking into aiming systems for my recurve. I found all of your videos as well as “The Push” on YouTube etc. Also I read everything I could find that JRW had posted. After much experimentation, I settled on the fixed crawl method with a 20 yard point on distance. The results have been beyond what I ever hoped for. Shooting targets all summer my shooting was better than ever. For me I need a sighting system and I’m probably done with “instinctive” shooting for hunting. Of course just the aiming system isn’t enough, you’ve still got to have repeatable form and everything but for me having a reference when I’m bearing down on a game animal is calming. If I weren’t enjoying the fixed crawl method so much I’d put a single pin on the bow.

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