I started with splint finger hill style, then went three under, then a fixed crawl and I kept getting better groups but a louder bow and a much tougher time with my form. Eventually switched to sights. Best of it all imo. I have a pin for 20,30, and 40. I use a really low anchor too which makes for a quiet shot and much better releases. I anchor below the chin and check my draw with a kisser. Anyone else shoot like this?

I don't but makes a whole lot off sense to me for anyone that aims. Why not have good sights instead of rudimentary?

Olympic style but be warned, that is not trad my dear fellow! You Having said that, yes, a sight works well and it has worked well for Brady Ellison smoking the Koreans! USA!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>_________________________ _________>snaky arrow Sammo

There is fellow here that was ready to give up due to an eye issue. He ended up using a DAS sight and switching hands. He likes the larger optic. When a deer looks smaller in it he holds the aperture higher. When the deer completely fills it plus, he holds the aperture sight lower. One my mentors always stated, "Shoot through the sight pins never at them." I saw him shoot a pheasant out of the air with his 64" Bear Patriot recurve. I tried to hunt with my target form many years ago. I had issues with shooting while standing on steep slopes and with deer that were not cooperative, that had something to do with the way i was hunting. If one is always going to hold a bow vertical, why not put a sight on it?

Yes, all most all long range target shooters. >>>---->Ken

I don't use them well but I like to see people shoot well and have fun. If someone needs a sight to have fun shooting I think I like that person using sights.

I haven’t had any interest in using them myself, as I generally shoot best with a canted bow… And I’m poor enough a judge of distance that my elevation errors (inside of 30) are greater with a fast compound and sights than they are shooting an older recurve, Dacron string and 9-10 GPP. Seriously. Once I get to the point where I have to choose between the first and second pin, I start missing entirely on 3D targets.

That said, I am enough of a renegade to think that most people taking up single- string archery would be best served by starting off with sights - and I mean both pins AND peep! - while they work out the basics of form and release.

Because missing is not so bad, but missing and having not a snowball’s chance of knowing what to do to correct for it is just God-Awful...

I've been thinking about dabbling.

I've been trying to learn how to gap, and am finding that I've gotten very dependent on how my current target/backstop is setup. I've been holding on certain features rather than actually figuring my gap (point of aim instead of gapping?).

Anyway, I've been wondering if shooting with a single pin for a while would be a way to kick the habit.

I've also been interested in trying sliding some o-rings down my bow limb to use as a holdover reference. Seems like I remember seeing that on some ELB's a while back.

Jack Howard and a jillion other folks used them back in the day. That's why so many vintage bows have screw holes in them. Must have been something to it, before we became to aware of what is traditional.

I don't but there are and have been a lot of archers that do. I just like the challenge and satisfaction I get shooting barebow.

Yes, I shot like that for a couple of years. No kisser or peep, but Olympic anchor with a large circular sight just to get me in the neighborhood. I was also shooting cross eye dominant, but once I was confident via the sight that I was on target I usually shot well anyway. I stopped shooting that way when I switched to longbows and corrected the eye dominance thing. The circle worked better for me than a pin, maybe because I was just a little overbowed.

I plan to fool around some with them this winter. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that 'barebow' is too limited. Like buckhorn sights on a 270...

Hey Dana, we need to get our eyes checked again!lol Old eyes, but yet, we are not having trouble seeing the doughnuts,,lol yummmy

I have found a sight to be very useful in diagnosing persistent form "flaws" and shoot one occasionally for that reason. "Flaw" is relative and I'm certainly not suggesting that if someone shoots well with their unique form that they should change, but it helped me. I was just always confused when people discussed using "string blur" in their sight picture, because at my normal draw/anchor the string was out in the periphery of my vision. I didn't really look down the shaft so much as "triangulate" with the tip and I shot quite well this way for many years. When I slapped a pin sight on and checked the aligned riser/limbs/string/shaft and pin I discovered that the pin was well nearly 1/2" left of the aligned components(I'm RH). Oddly, I had the same relationship when I shot wheels and every body said it was normal so I never thought about it, but my form was releasing the arrow outside the natural plane that the string should travel and the nock end was moving laterally causing the POI to be left of spot unless I unconsciously compensated with the method mentioned above. I won't get into a debate on how quickly the limbs compensate or don't compensate for this kind of thing, for me "the proof was in the pudding". It felt very awkward for a while changing my form to incorporate string blur in my sight picture, because basically I had to shorten my draw length and it felt like I was collapsing and losing back tension. When I got everything worked out the pin sight lined up with all other components and the bow was quieter and had noticeably less vibration. Most important, arrow flight improved and I am way more accurate. Left/right misses have disappeared....your mileage may vary.

O.P. I have shot in an known amount of archery tournaments back in the 50's and 60's. Your way of sight shooting is the way about every sight shooter shot back then. It is nothing new.

That sounds to me like an eye dominance issue.

Yes I do

If it works for you then great. It sure is still traditional and you are having fun. Going to try it myself.

No use for them (except on firearms).

On my firearms.

No but ive thought of playing around with one at times just to see what its like i think an aperture type would be good. Like a peep it centers your eye/target focus

I cant see the harm if it improves your accuracy (especially in hunting) Id rather see someone with a sight make a good shot on an animal, then see someone wound an animal out of pride or fear of being flamed over using one jmho

"I don't but makes a whole lot off sense to me for anyone that aims. Why not have good sights instead of rudimentary?"

I've never understood that either. Gap shooters are hilarious.

Jake -

I started about 15 - 20 years ago and really haven't looked back.

"I don't but makes a whole lot off sense to me for anyone that aims. Why not have good sights instead of rudimentary?"

Kinda the way I look at it too.

Viper out.

In 1967, the Chestnut Ridge Archery Club had about 40+ members. Two of use shot without sights, and only three of us hunted without sights. Nowadays it's okay to use fixed crawls and gap where the arrow is used for a sight, but it's taboo to use real ones. That's just how it goes 'dese daze'.

I would tell you that the guys who don't aim, likely wouldn't do well with them anyway since they bring out the best, or worst in your form, so it's better to talk them down then try them. They will magnify form errors.

I used a sight on my compound. I like a barebow. just seems more traditional to me

Why not. If it helps use it!

Good for you. Traditional I thought was doing something that has been done in the past like in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and so on until now.

If they shot with sights back then until now then I would say it's Traditional.

Sights were used in the 1930's, as were aluminum arrows, so I think we're good. Sights predate laminated bows here in the USA.

I might as well use a gun or a crossbow with sites I always felt personally. But who asked you Cat your always saying stuff.

Just what I feel it would take the fun out of things and screw up the computer in my head.

I know sites have been used for ages and they help but I just can't feel it for me.LOL

We all use sites.

Some are just more rudimentary than others. Even to the point of being "All Naturale".

8^)

Rick

“‘I don't but makes a whole lot off sense to me for anyone that aims. Why not have good sights instead of rudimentary?’

I've never understood that either. Gap shooters are hilarious.”

“... for anyone that aims.” Now, THAT is hilarious. EVERYBODY AIMS. Some are just a whole lot more precise about it.

JMO, there are at least three perfectly good reasons to use a “rudimentary” sight (such as the point/length of your arrow) for hunting (and practicing for hunting) rather than a more precise alternative.

#1 - The tip of an arrow is not all that imprecise, really. Compounders have lost sight ( :p ) of this fact, but what is a string peep but a Ghost Ring iron sight? You know, where the mind subconsciously centers the front bead in the middle of the ring? Same applies to the shaft - you can center the length of your arrow under the desired POI and it works as well as your form will allow. I’m not grouping my walk-ups into groups 4” wide from the Trad stake, the Compound stake, the Top Gun Compound stake and BEYOND by accident, by dumb luck, by cheating or by using The Force, but I HAVE been doing it. Not every time, of course, but far too often for it to be pure chance. Go back and re-read the bit about this working AS WELL AS YOUR FORM WILL ALLOW. So in this case, I’m prepared to suggest that “rudimentary” need not necsssarily mean inadequate by ANY stretch.

#2 - The greatest weakness of gapping is the looping arc of an arrow at longer range, but not many of us will take a hunting shot past 15-20 yards if we can avoid it, and up close like that, the trajectory thing is a relatively trivial concern.

#3 - “Proper” sights are extremely intolerant of being canted; hunting shots frequently require a more flexible shooting platform and if you are aiming with your entire arrow, you can can cant anywhere from plumb vertical to horizontal, so none of the flexibility of a Bare Bow need be foregone and all of the additional accuracy can be retained. Since I started taking the time to learn how, I can shoot standing up like a statue, sitting, kneeling, twisting or prone. The one thing I haven’t yet figured out is how to aim down the arrow while lying on my back.

So you may laugh at my “rudimentary” sights if you wish, but JMO I’ve got the best of both worlds by shooting Gapstinctive.

Trad??? Sights have been on bows longer than any of the members on here have been alive.

If you don't have time to practice... and still want to shoot a trad bow... why not? Shoot and be happy... no matter what you do somebody's always gonna have something to say about it. May as well do what you like. Happy hunting.

Just wondering if anyone has interest. I can show my set up if anyone wants. Not very trad 21 inch riser, stab with sling, weather rest with vanes, and sights. I don’t really care if anyone likes it or not. I hunt with what I like and what works for me.

Even Fred Bear used sights... Lol. I used a sight on my 76er for a bit. It seemed to work good enough.

Lots of guys used sights way back in the late 1950's. Probably kept a lot of hunters bowhunting, just as has using any point of reference.

Biggest negative of a sight is determining distance in yards. Instinctive comes with a built in range finder. You just know how much to elevate the bow. I tried a sight once. I taped a single wooden match and moved it to where t was in vertically and horizontally to where it was dead on at a measured 40 yards, we know mistakes are magnified at longer distance. My target was a tennis ball. I hit it way more times using the sight because no sighting error is likely IF YOU KNOW THE DISTANCE.

When I started out in the 60's I used sights. Got very good with them. Decided to play around without them and found I could shoot quicker, and didn't need to estimate "yardage" as much. Wouldn't want to go back to them now.

Oh now come on,,sights are just a crutch and aint trad,,lol just kiddin, shoot how you want and have fun. With sights you are not burning before, you have to wait and laser through the sights. Beanshooters are deadly.>>>>>>>>>>>>------------------>sammo

The only thing I don't like about sights is missing the flight of the arrow.To me, thats the coolest part of barebow.

I think folks should use what makes them most accurate, and learning to use a sight can help solidify your form. Fact is you won't shoot very well with a sight if your form is not consistent. I think most guys would be surprised how 'not easy' they are to use.

As for having to know the distance, it works just like not having a sight if you shoot it enough at different distances. And lets add this, a vertical bow is no handicap in the woods either. If you think it is, you never really applied yourself to try it.

Good post George.

I want to say something about a certain method, but I better not name it...I'll just say I always use sights whether canting or not. Every problem has a solution...

I'm not interested in using sights. Have fun doing your own thing and don't worry about what everybody else thinks.

What class would I be in with a sight on my bow in IBO?

George is correct. I just didn't use one long enough (one day) to get to know how to hold over for really long shots we sometimes take for fun. The range I used to go to had pegs to mark the distance. Even knowing the exact distance. Shooting , at 80 yards, I could not even hit the stack of bales, much less the paper. That was before compounds. The thing then was an adjustable single pin on a quality recurve, like the Tamberlane. Those guys hit what they shot at. I remember marks on the sight to correspond with yardages. Slow but deadly.

NOT FOR ME...Sold all my compounds when i started shooting my Recurve 3 years ago. To each his own.

Sights were actually used in the 1800's. If you do some research you will find mention of a number of European competition archers who used beads on their bowstring as a sight. So I'd say it's "traditional".

I put sites on a couple of R/D longbows a few months back, just because I wanted to try it. After many practice sessions getting used to them and disciplining my form there's only one word to describe the effect on my accuracy....deadly....and moderately canting my bow is not a problem. I like 'em.

Never had one on a bow, getting older and having old age CSS I have a hard time focusing on my target and a front and rear sight on my guns so I have gone to a red dot holographic on my AR and 10mm Glock. With my bow I am only looking at one thing, fuzzy or not.

Rick is right we all use sights even the non aiming instinctive shooters of which I sort of consider myself.. Even when you just burn a hole in your target your subconscious is using the arrow shaft and tip of arrow as a sight.. its impossible not to. If you don't think so block your view to your arrow shaft and tip and try to shoot just by looking at your target..

"What class would I be in with a sight on my bow in IBO? "

HF - Hunter Fingers. Yellow stakes, 35 yard maximum.

I've been half-jokingly thinking about that myself.

Funny thing but wouldn't even consider shooting a shotgun without bead or a rifle without sights yet I insist on no sights on my bows . Maybe it's time to consider a sight on my bow?

Shotgun is a different story no need for bead to shoot good unless shooting slugs, broke a lot of clays with old single barrel with nothing on barrel.

Ross, the modern 'trad' hunters make up their own rules about what constitutes 'Trad Style'. And, it doesn't matter what you tell them, they are not interested in real archery and bowhunting history. The guy who coined the term Bowhunting/Bowhunter, Roy Case, shot sights on his bows later in his career. I guess if it exists in your mind, it must be true. Who needs history.

Here's a odd question, has anyone used just a peep sight on there string to "frame the target" so to speak. No front sight pin.

Nocklow, I asked about that several years ago, got the 'net equivalent of some funny looks ;-)

Nock -

Ah, no. Well I'm sure some IBO WORLD CHAMPION did it, some time, somewhere, but a pretty lame idea.

The rear sight on anything is used to "frame" the front sight for alignment purposes (think rifle), so framing the target doesn't really fly, except as a placebo.

In too many cases, a peep sight on a bow replaces a solid anchor. More common with beginning compound types, but still a problem.

Viper out.

Yes

" In too many cases, a peep sight on a bow replaces a solid anchor. More common with beginning compound types, but still a problem. "

Viper, that's a good point. I watch a lot of compounders and a lot of them seem to shoot with some goshawful form, hands backward, elbows way high etc. Can't help wonder if that stems from not having the peep properly installed, or if the peep demands a 'funny' anchor for many face shapes.

Viper, I understand your point and like Dana I've seen some really strange thinks compounders do trying to look through a peep. My thought was if a person is using the arrow shaft or point as part of there aiming system and keeping it the frame of a peep would it be helpful to use one?

Nocklow

Im afraid the point of the arrow is much too low on the plane to frame in the peep unless your going for an 80+ yard point on. It was a good thought though.

I try really hard and prefer to shoot my bows without sights, but I really suck when a deer is in front of me. I shoot high, which I know is common, but I just can't focus on a spot. Even when I aim under the deer, I shoot over. So, yesterday after missing a button buck...twice..at 8 and 13 yards. I put my single pin back on. I feel like I'm cheating, but I'm really sick of missing the few shots I get. One pin and I can focus and everything else falls in place, i.e. correct anchor, follow through and confidence.

Not trying to be a pot stirrer in any way but by anchor are you referring to good alignment Viper? The reason that I ask is because you could align a peep from a multitude of anchors. I respect your knowledge and have reached out to you for advice, you've always been gracious with your knowledge.

Guys -

The anchor is, or at least should be, the rear sight on most bows.

Alignment is something else and almost all Olympic shooters use the string blur (aligning the string with something on the riser or sight) for that. The low anchor we use facilitates that. Trad guys may or may not be able to use a string blur, depending on their anchor and the shape of their heads. With a side of face anchor, the string blur can be lateral to the aiming eye, rendering it impossible to see. If you can't see the string, you can't use a peep. Again, this is a variable due to anatomy and preferred anchor.

Yes, too many compound shooters, especially bow hunters have lousy form because there are enough compensating factors, and the peep is one.

Viper out.

sights and good alignment...

who cares? use a sight? good for you! don't use a sight? good for you too!! if something happened to me physically and I needed to use a sight I sure would before I gave it up...if a die hard hunter wants to use a sight to be more confident than have at it...to much debate on what is trad or what isn't....why do you care so much about what others do...if you like to use a sight on your recurve or longbow than why care? does that make you less the hunter? absolutely not...in my humble opinion...I point shoot my entire pistol qualification 4 times a year for my job..i don't use sights at all out to 25 yards...but I bet the guys next to me do...and that is perfectly fine..thats what they are they for...

If I were to use a sight it would be single pin. But I hate being restricted to a vertical bow. My arrow falls off the shelf.

I shot bare bow recurves as a kid. I shot target recurves with a single pin in college. I got a compound with five pins for hunting and made GREAT target shots but was hopeless in the woods. Went to sightless and started to kill deer.

Never looked back.

Your arrow shouldn't fall off the shelf if you use proper technique. That said, the para rest/brush rest can easily drop a heavy arrow because the brush is not very firm.

And...there are sighting methods that work great with canting...e.g., ones I invented, but I digress...

Sadly due to the development of certain unnecessary biases toward what is "traditional" archery, the majority of participants in this endeavor seriously limit their opportunities for enjoying the sport to it's fullest potential.

There is absolutely no reason why a person can't shoot with sights, without sights, 3 under, split finger, gun barreling, dead gun, anchoring on the cheek bone. anchoring under the chin, it should make no difference.

Different methods for different use environments. It's called being a "complete" archer. Most would probably be amazed at the things they would learn trying other methods.

I don't know or care why someone uses various systems or aids to shoot a bow. The appeal of traditional archery to me was the challenge of shooting using nothing but my eye and brain. It takes time and practice.

No one else here acknowledge the mystical flight of the arrow? You do not get that with sights. Absolutely nothing against using them but it's not the same. Kinda like shooting with tracers barebow. I've used sights, and they work well. Maybe I'm being silly but it's a bit magical to me.

Dude I don’t care who uses what either. Instinctive gapping sights whatever. If it’s your cup of tea drink it. I wasn’t looking to justify how I shoot or say anyone else’s way sucks. Just seeing if anyone else shoots them and if they’d like to see my set-up.

Shooting without sights or with them (Instinctive and Freestyle Divisions) were the Hatfields and McCoys at one Club I belonged to. Never cared one way or another as that was a generation ahead of me that fought in WWII (the Club leaders) who were divided. 'Bout like the wheelies and the onestringers now. Hey Jack, if ya like'em, use'em.

The system you describe works well for me with the Bear B riser that's my current favorite daily shooter. It has the same "Premier Hunting Sight" built right into the riser as the Bear Super Kodiak. I replaced the pins with a single ring from a Tamerlane Premium Sight. I draw split finger with a low anchor under the chin, along the jaw.

My longbows and other recurves without sights I shoot three under with a much higher jaw/corner of the mouth anchor.

Being confident at 40 yards is fun, whether it be a bow sight or a split vision aimer on long shots like me.

I grew up using a recurve with 4 pins ...

Still run one of my Titan rigs with sights. It will sort your form out in no time ... pretty deadly as hinting rig too .

And I ain’t trad ... I am archer who primarily hunts with Longbows ... and compounds and recurves and occasionally a selfbow.

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