And, where did they say it?

"Tuning is a good thing, but hardly critical in a hunting situation."

Just curious.

Rick

Archery Talk...Tradional Archery Section

Ah. Got it, and thanks.

I was just curious, because there's a bunch of oleladie gossiping going on about it at another place.

I can sleep now. LOL

Rick

Sorry Tony (Viper), didn't know it was you they were talking about.

As is typical on the forums, someone took something someone said, then posted it entirely out of context somewhere else in order to start up a bashing thread.

By the way - I understood what you were saying, but dang buddy, you left yourself wide open for misinterpretations there. Do it on purpose?

Rick

Tuning that is 'good enough for hunting' is probably not quite good enough for field or Olympic archery. Since most of us confine our hunting shots to close-to-moderate distances, slight tuning errors are not as critical. Hitting the heart/lungs at 22 yards is one thing, hitting the gold at 70 meters is another thing.

Which does *not* mean we shouldn't tune to the best of our ability.

If you're going to hunt, you had better tune your set up to the best extent possible. Untuned setups rob penetration, can contribute to poor shots, and don't belong in the field. Broadheads certainly magnify tuning errors and we owe it to the animal to make sure we do everything on our end to prevent bad shots and wounding. Nothing new here.

P.S.-- in my opinion tuning is much more critical in a hunting situation.

Tony's point was (he can correct me if I'm wrong):

What good is tuning if you are incapable of shooting the bow you are trying to use.

Of course tuning is important, but you need to know what you are doing "first".

Rick

Good point Rick. I see tuning as part of the learning process, tune to shoot better, shoot better so you can check your tuning.

Here’s how it worked out for me....

Step One: Learn to shoot well enough to hit your mark with a field point.

Step Two: Learn to tune well enough to eliminate glaring flight issues and to make your broadheads hit in the same place as your FPs (to the best of your ability).

Any improvements you can make from there will only help.

I've had issues with my trigger finger all Summer, confidence was low and caused my release get pretty sloppy at times as well.

I got a new riser last month which helped me stop bow hand torque but I couldn't Bare shaft tune because my release just wasn't consistent enough at the time, I just set up as best I could (Brace height, nocking point and center shot) and did the Bare shafting once my realese cleaned up a few weeks later.

If you think of some of these Indoor shooters with 2316 shafts out of 36# Recurve and a high nock point to get a 20y point on, that's pretty way out in tune, yet they shoot crazy Indoor scores.

A well tuned setup will suck up those Form errors really well but you have to get the Form consistent before the tune really starts working in your favor.

Tuning is ultra important, but it has nothing to do with being able to shoot well. Let's not confuse the two. Tuning is getting the optimum arrow flight and performance from the bow. If you can't hit a bull in the arse with a handful of gravel, all the tuning in the world won't help you. You can hit the target with an ill-tuned arrow, but the best tuned bow and arrow setup won't help an archer who just isn't very good at shooting it. Most things in tuning and shooting are relative.

I agree 100% with George.

Tuning doesn't stop at the bow. We need to tune ourselves with our equipment. The key is to eliminate all the variables we can. We cant control the force of nature or the odd things things that happen when were putting our arrow on the mark. I'm not a weird "one with our inanimate object guru" type, but I believe that doing all the tuning ourselves helps us get into sync with our gear.

I can shoot fairly mismatched arrows and they all hit in roughly the same place.

I'm not special, feathers do the work.

Shoot a large broadhead out of an untuned bow and it'll sometimes hit up to 20 inches from ur field points at 20 yards. I shot high 290's with 2219s out of 50 lbs just tuned well enough to seemingly fly straight. Broadheads plane to the point that sometimes a bare shaft tune isn't good enough for broadheads. Plus torturing an animal depends on ur tune with broadheads. That's why expandable heads came about. Because some people can't tune and because of xbows.

I may be wrong as there isn't anybody keeping score, But Tony's book "Shooting the Stickbow" has likely sold thousands more copies than anyone else's on how to loose an arrow with maximum accuracy.

His focus is based on his considerable experience addressing the needs of a target archer. In THAT context UBER-Tune of every detail of bow, arrow AND archer is important.

But close-minded bias isn't limited to political like opinions. Surprise, hide-bound trad archers have big doses of unfounded/un-supported BS opinions too.

Rick R.

Well, in order to draw any reasonable conclusion of interpretation, you need to read the whole thing, so here it is:

[[[ "That is however a horrible bow to learn on. It's too heavy and way too short. Yes, you are learning, despite your compound history.

Next you said, "I’ll be attempting to hunt with it next season, so tune is critical."

Ah, no. Tuning is a good thing, but hardly critical in a hunting situation. IOWs, close enough is close enough. Fact is, few bow hunters have good enough form (in a hunting situation) to get any benefit from a "perfect" tune vs. a close tune.

I know it's been done, but with a bow that short, I would not go 3 under and a glove ain't gonna help, think about a tab.

So, if you really want to hunt it next season, get a cheap, lighter and longer bow to learn on, and then see if you really want to work with that one." ]]]

I still believe he was trying to tell the guy he needs to get a bow he is capable of shooting, BEFORE placing a lot of emphasis on tuning.

Rick

If you cant shoot a group how can you tune a bow.

Sounds like that to me as well Rick.

Rick,Tony,George, Yorktown5, and Zetabow know what they are doing. Spend attention. Nothing more to be said. >>>----> Ken

(((( If yer shootin 2 blades for huntin at ranges 0-40yds you better have that rig tuned up just how yer gonna shoot the arrow. If yer hunting without fletch by all means play around with bare shafts. HH~))))

Hunting range out to 40 yards ?

You need to read the thread “we owe it to the animal” A whitetail deer can duck a crossbow at that distance.

https://youtu.be/IWXWUBWSszk

This is a video about a whitetails ability to duck

Too far for me HH but to each his own .

10 out of 10 on plates at 50 with a single string bow HH?

Are you saying you never missed or made a bad hit? Did you see the doe head down eating. She hit the ground and spun nearly got hit in the head. He said some deer don't react. Maybe none of them do where you hunt but they all do here. Took me awhile to figure it out before all the filming and studies took place. I am giving up 100 feet a second to those test. It takes a quiet bow & quiet arrow. You still have to pick your shot well. A little cover noise is a big plus. Wind, birds,airplane,vehicle etc. I have used them all.

Never seen any one advocate hunting with bare shafts. It is an excellent way to get arrows flying true and point on with out huge feathers. >>>>-----> Ken

Rick, If I've learned one thing on here lately it's that form is not important. So how and more importantly why would anyone tune if the input to the arrow is different on each shot. Everyone here waiting for the stand on your head deer behind me at 12 yards shot where the magic of burning a hole is so irrefutably effective...

Rick, et al -

Boy, I leave you guys alone for a day or so, and ya start talking about me behind my back ;^).

Rick, thanks for adding the full context. Tuning is still a black box thing for a lot of people, and even bare shafting isn't the end game for optimal flight/forgiveness by a good shooter. As I said in the text you posted, a 20 yard (or less) shot doesn't require a perfect tune, and in a lot of hunting situation your form won't be text book, making the way you tuned under optimal conditions is kinda meaningless.

Don't get me wrong, tuning IS a good thing, but it has to be kept in the right context. It's why I described 4 or 5 tuning modalities (and yes, they all work) based on shooter ability and need.

Viper out.

You're welcome Tony.

I was asked about this, and new nothing until I did a little digging.

Once I did the digging, I found folks on another site verbally crucifying you, but doing it solely as response to a rather incomplete quote, which I can only believe was provided that way intentionally.

That topic at that other place is completely misleading, one sided, and unfair to say the least.

You & I have had our disagreements over the years. I can't think of one single time where I wanted to drive spikes through your hands for it. 8^)

Rick

Rick -

I've been off line for a little bit, didn't see any spikes on the original (AT) post, may have been deleted.

Here's the thing, we're both long enough in the tooth, to say our minds and let it go. People are going to get it or not, or going to use it to do what they will. I stopped worrying what some folks do or say on the Internet a long time ago. Like I said, some folks get it, so don't and some have pretty serious issues ;)

Viper out.

I wish I had a dollar for every bow I got in the mail that wasn't tricked or tuned and took it out and kilt critters. A killer can use a stone you do know. lol

I got a Black tail and just unwrapped it and looked outside to put dog out and dogs on point there was a hog that was in garden.

Wammo just grabbed an arrow and did not look and drew down on him and he ate his last tomato.

Cat out!!!!!!!!!!

BTW I NEVER SAID I DIDN'T HAVE ISSUES. IF I DIDN'T I WOULDN'T ON HERE WITH YOU GUYS. LOL

WHATS THAT SAY FOR EVERYONE ELSE? LOL

Viper, I think you just needed to elaborate more on the original comment you posted. The way it reads it doesn’t make much sense and sounds prett stupid. Just like a lot of stuff on these trad forums things can be misinterpreted if they are not explained properly. That just leads to people jumping all over somebody and it turns into an off topic bashing. Apparently you rubbed a few people the wrong way at some point and the bashing has been aimed your way.

Viper has things straight even if it was a little weird?

Hello he's speaking Cat.LOL

Take her as it comes the good and the bad and the indifferent? LOL

Hey where is frisky? His truck in the body shop yet? LOL

I've noticed over the years that Chad's posts usually say more about him than whatever injustice or "bad" information that he's complaining about.

I would take anything that he writes with a grain of salt (especially if it's out of context).

I saw that post Chad made and as soon as I read it I just figure its a "smear" against someone and why join in to stir the pot . I have seen debates with him on other sites and it gets ugly so I only read maybe 1/3 of his posts but did read that one .I agree 100% with Brandon !

Just to clarify, it's not this Chad.

I told them on the other site you were being taking out of context and it was an incomplete quote. Haven't heard anything yet but they tend to not like being disagreed with over there.>>>----> Ken

No it's not you KDdog....

Whew, it's been weird on the LW lately. Hopefully things are getting back to normal :)

After I posted on the other site. A couple guys came on and backed me up. One posted the whole article. Don't believe the pot stirrer is coming back. >>>----> Ken

I was wrong he came back on such a rampage the thread was pulled. I had just finished reading when it disappeared.>>>----> Ken

That sounds about right.

He will rarely just let something go, and always has a retort ready no matter how ridiculous the topic gets.

And his responses can get nasty when his agenda is countered.

In all honesty, you're probably lucky that you (and the other guys) didn't get banned from TG for just offering a counter point because he's usually pretty quick to "report" posts to moderators if it pisses him off.

I know this first-hand because he did that many times on Trad Archers (which I run and moderate).

After a couple years of dealing with him, I grew tired of his argumentative nature towards certain other members.

Out of 800+ members, he's the only one I've ever banned. 800 really isn't that many, but no one else has even come close. And that's not the only time that's happened to him, so I don't think it was just me.

He's been banned from a few different archery forums, and of course, it never seems to be his fault. Someone else is always a liar, a crook, or whatever else he wants to label them as.

Personally, it's about enough sour me on BCY products altogether.

I used to buy and use a few products from BCY (in addition to Brownell), but let's just say that I'm strictly a Brownell man now...lol

Maybe it has happened and I'm just not aware of it, but I certainly can't ever recall seeing any of Brownell's representatives conducting themselves in such a way on public archery forums.

He must make up for some of his online behavior at shows while working at their booth?

Maybe he's a different guy in person than he is behind the keyboard when he's arguing with strangers?

Who knows... who cares... not me.

I had no idea he was connected with BCY or was anybody. I was respectful but it wouldn't have made any difference. No one is to big or important to disagree with. >>>----> Ken

The trouble I saw with a buddy lately trying to tune his Bow.

He was canting way over, Had his nock point so low the arrows were bouncing off the shelf.

His draw length was not always the same either.

His arrows were already too stiff, to begin with.

Had him hold his Bow vertical and draw to anchor, then shoot three shots at the same draw length after we raised his nocking point.

Better but still not right.

Unstrung it, had his top limb out of the ILF dovetail sitting on top of the plate,,,Goober.

All set now after tiller set to even.

Strung it up, then set his nock again. He then told me he had just decided to put on the flipper rest and was shooting off the shelf before. Goober again, lol

All tiller set and nock point 3/8's above.

Now hold vertical and draw length achieved before shooting. Now arrows showing a but weak?

OK, now we sit down and we teach basic class on tuning and tiller and nock point.

OK, that leads to 2 hours of class on proper form.

Now after just asking me what was wrong "with this stupid Bow?"at the beginning, we are nearly four hours into it and we finally have him change field tips to some 100's I have on hand.

Bingo! Now we finally arrive at fletched arrows and start tuning left and right horizontally for centershot.

Another 15 mins explaining centershot and the effects on arrow spine.

Guy loads up and says" Can I spend another afternoon with you?"

I said first give me a brief rundown of what you have learned today.

The Guy amazed me at his pretty detailed synopsis.

I said OK, you can come back.

He asked me why he had to explain why "he had to tell me what he had learned? I mean gee, I am pretty smart!"

I said well I just wanted to see if another afternoon of my time would be worth it? He laughed a little but said he still did not "understand why he had to shoot for form at ten yards or less before he came back?"

I said I will be able to tell if you followed the rules or not when you come back.

Many need to listen, learn, keep learning and then when we think we have learned it all, listen some more.

Guys -

Glad you folks can see through the BS. The best way to deal with people who continually "stir-the-pot" (and not in a good way) is to ignore them. That takes away the one thing they desperately need - attention.

Anyway, getting back the the original topic... tuning is generally a good thing, if you remember that you can only tune as well as you can shoot and while tuning can make a rig more forgiving, it will only forgive minor form flubs. That's why the better the shooter, the tight the tune. The more inconsistencies or the less controlled the environment, the less "critical" the tune becomes - within reason of course.

Viper out.

No offense intended, but I think he's got you fooled.

I don't doubt that he can shoot a bow very well, but what he's been posting on TG over the past couple days isn't something that a "super guy" would do.

He's just tearing down others to make himself look and feel better about himself, and trying to pass it off as protecting the sanctity of bowhunting.

It's f'n goofy and he wouldn't get away with it on any other forum.

Guys -

With all due respect, this post was about a comment I made that was misinterpreted or questioned by some folks. I think some good may have come out of the replies. Let's not have the thread closed by doing the same thing we find objectionable in others. Just sayin'.

Viper out.

Guys don't go hunting untuned. Viper compared perfect tune to close tuned. Close will get you broadhead flight and as long as you have that he's absolutely right. I also misunderstood his post.

I'll take my tuning for hunting advice from someone who hunts.

Like Tony said:

"Let's not have the thread closed by doing the same thing we find objectionable in others."

I started this topic to find out who made the statement, and get more information about it.

I found out, and I found out just how out of context, and misleading it was being presented over there.

I will say this: I have learned a lot from reading both here, and over there, and much of what I have learned is disappointing (to say the least).

On second thought - Maybe this should be closed.

Rick

Hmmmm. Odd.It strikes me that if you know you are going to go shoot in an environment that you know up front will potentially push you into compromised form and shot execution that you would want a rather forgiving set up. A marginal or "close enough" state of tune hardly qualifies, especially once you stick a broadhead on the arrow.

Just because you're hunting your arrow flight doesn't suddenly magically get better. Especially if you decide to go ahead and take that low percentage out of position rushed shot while super excited and you accidentally short draw and snap shoot it.

We get all worked up about "ethics" and then turn around and say that close enough is the best that we can do?

Honestly, I just don't get it.

The difference of opinion for tuning is because there are beginners,intermediate,and very good archers. Every one has to start some place. You can't tell every one not to hunt until they are a pro. It is a fact that some can't shoot good enough groups to tune efficiently. I didn't understand it for years when I started. I still took game regularly. One, there was plenty where I hunted. Two, I choose shots very carefully. It had to be in my self imposed range. It had to be un-alerted. It had to be in the right position. I also tried to take every advantage like cover noise,a vehicle,airplane,wind,birds, a deer crunching acorns. I didn't get a lot of shots but when I did it usually went in the freezer. The best beginners can do is get arrows spined for their bow, practice and recognize their limits. Just my 2¢ worth. >>>----> Ken

Ken -

That's exactly the point. Remember early on I said that tuning is still a black box thing for a lot of people? We can say that tuning a rig will make it more forgiving to shooter error, but that forgiveness has its limits. It will forgive minor changes in finger pressure on the string or minor bow torque, it won't do anything for a 2" change in draw length, serious collapse or plucking the string like the bow is a banjo.

Like you said, tuning is dependent on the shooters ability - and for most trad types an arrow that appears to fly straight is close enough. When we talk about a pie plate sized group at 20 yards, we're not talking about fine tuning, but we're not talking about an arrow flying sideways either.

Viper out.

If ur tuned well enough for large broadheads (such as shuufers)to fly and hit with field points ur tuned well enough for anything.

Yup...

I tried hard - REALLY hard - to get “tuned” following Fred Asbell’s written directions. I’m good at understanding what I’ve read, but It has to be reasonably well-written and then you get into knowledge that the author presumed that his reader will have vs. the actual experience of the audience. Let’s just say that in my case, Fred probably assumed a little too much! LOL

Talked myself into being very noticeably overspined, but it didn’t keep me from shooting as accurately with BH as FP. At least out to about 20... And I killed what I shot at.... except when I missed ;)

Now I’m shooting better, I’d say, and I’m better tuned than ever. Mostly thanks to 2bears. Turns out that matched and tuned shafts will turn a fairly consistent 8” group into a pretty regular 4-incher. Not saying I can do it at 20, but in the old back yard at 15-ish, I was doing OK.

"If you're tuned well enough for large broadheads (such as snufers)to fly and hit with field points you're tuned well enough for anything."

Not for 'serious' competition. Get beyond the 30-yard max of 'hunting' competition, back to 'field' or Olympic style shooting distances, and you need to take the 'next steps' in fine tuning.

(That 30 yard # is IBO maximum for 'traditional' class. I know there are 'fun' shoots where targets are set much further. Those generally cater to the I-don't-keep-score-anyway folks ;-) )

Ken, thanks for being the voice of reason here. I got what Tony was saying, but apparently many didn't. Unbelievable how these threads evolve and take on a life of their own.

You misread what I wrote.

I said that I don't doubt that he can shoot very well.

That means that he very well could, and he probably can. Don't really care though. ;^)

I didn't intend to take Rick's post off on a tangent, so I won't be adding any additional posts, other than this one.

I am not going to get into what Chad said or wrote BUT I will say this much. It is a fact that Chad is a very strong supporter of Veterans and has donated many times to veterans causes and has helped me out in that respect many times. I sent a large box of donated items to the military in Afghanistan a couple of years ago that Chad sent me that was a large part of that package.

Chad is a very generous business man when supporting veterans and for that I say thank you.

Well I am for doing all we can for veterans and I am one.Active military and the ones just returning need it the most. I certainly respect what Jon says he has been around a while and is one of the best knapper's, well at least his work is the prettiest, I have seen. So if Chad did that good for him. How ever I made an attempt to correct an error he published that he admitted he was told, when I had read the whole article. He became belligerent,childish,and called me names I can't/won't repeat and questioned my sexuality. I told him I would be happy to discuss it farther when he could discuss it like a grownup.Until then I won't defend him or discuss Chad (the basket) Weaver again. Regards, >>>----> Ken

Ken, I don't what was said/written or what hasn't and sorry for what you have had to endure on this but there is good and bad in most all of us and Chad has been lit up on almost every post here. I just wanted to let others know that Chad has been very generous when it came to veterans and veteran causes. I know nothing about the arrow tuning business. I have never shot an arrow without feathers and if an arrow doesn't fly right I don't shoot it.

There is no call for anyone getting personal on here.

Dana I shot field archery back in the 60s as did others in here. We all tuned either with paper or broadheads. Arrow tuning was unheard of till carbons came out in only 4 spines so you had to use arrow length to get the right spine. Also our 3d was out to 40-45 yards. And we all did fine. You cant assume people cant shoot because they use the old methods to tune.

Jon I agree wholeheartedly. There is definitely good and bad in us all. I am glad to hear the good he done for the veterans. I hate to think any one is totally rotten. When or if he can have a civil discussion I am all ears. Until then I have nothing more to say,either to or about him. Thanks for your concern and I admire you sticking up for him. That is exactly what I was doing. When he went on a rampage,got the thread pulled,immediately started another, then the P.M's the last 3, I didn't bother replying to. You may remain best friends with him it won't affect my opinion of you one little bit. Regards, >>>----> Ken

Just to be clear about something.

I was PMed with an inquiry into this topic. I knew nothing about it before hand, but I asked out of curiosity.

After I discovered what it was all about I started wishing I didn't know. Pretty disgusted by a lot of it.

You can pick your friends. You can pick your nose.

I don't recommend picking your friends nose. Things might get snotty.

That's the last I'll say of it.

Rick

GLF, I didn't say anything about methods of tuning. Rather, I think it becomes more imnportant as distance to target increases. Whatever method of tuning you use, some folks are gonna be better at it. And some of us struggle ;-)

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