Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Indepth look at the swingdraw

Messages posted to thread:
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
RymanCat 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sunset Hill 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Longspurs 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sunset Hill 11-Oct-18
dean 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Longspurs 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
zetabow 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
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zetabow 11-Oct-18
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Mountain Man 11-Oct-18
zetabow 11-Oct-18
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zetabow 11-Oct-18
Sunset Hill 11-Oct-18
George D. Stout 11-Oct-18
Sam Dunham 11-Oct-18
Mountain Man 11-Oct-18
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two4hooking 11-Oct-18
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fdp 12-Oct-18
From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




How about a thorough explorative thread into this seemingly very popular technique of drawing a Bow?

Start off with a bit of plagiarism by a quote from Joques Bonin.

"Lets take a look at he swing draw. First, assuming the archers holding the handle of bow correctly, please note, the shot cannot be done correctly or repeatable if the grip is incorrect. Let's assume you are holding the grip as Howard did, you first start with the bow shoulder at right angle to target,then you slowly swing bow arm up in line with target to be hit, as you swing the bow up with the bow arm slightly bent or broken, you start the draw, as the bow arm reaches the correct elevation, note the minds eye will pick this up after repeated shots, drawing only about 3/4th's during the swing and drawing the lasts 6 inches straight back to full anchor, ready to release as you are already on target. Now this may sound over simplified, however it is not, it takes regular practice, breaking down each step, as Howard did each time he practiced, working on one item each practice session! Please note, the bow hand doesn't move after the shot, it actually moves in a small oblong circle, the size of the egg shaped circle is what we are trying to control! Some archers side cast to the left, some to the right, some up ward, and some in a downward motion, all of these motions are incorrect. If wee cut a bow directly in-half, in the center of the grip, left to right, place a small black dot on the flat surface in the middle. For a right-handed shooter the little dot should move to the right toward the shooter, then hook to the left and forward, forming a small egg shape circle, this the by product of the arrow trying to push the bow out of the way! What we are trying to do is control the size of that egg shaped circle, the smaller the better!

Now, I will describe what Howard wrote in his diary, basic fundementals are as I described above, however with a huge difference, shoulder in line with target,Howard intentionally swung up with broken elbow, to the right of target, as he did so he was strecthing bow arm out to the correct length and getting the correct elevation, while doing this he still was only 3/4ters drawn, here is the special ingrediant! Howard would then raise up in a reverse arc, much like the shape of a reverse candcane,correcting the alignment and finishing his draw, hitting anchor and releasing the string! What Howard was doing was preloading the muscles used. Now if you look down at a full drawn archer, his arms, shoulders, the arrow should form a basic uneven sided triangle. If you look at the triangle from the side, as if the triangle is flat, like a coin, these are the muscles around the triangle in Howards body he is preloading. When done correctly, the arrow is sent on it's way with more direct force and total control, straight to the target, the drawing hand stays a the corner of the mouth and bow hand stay right where is was before the release creating a better follow through. This whole process takes quite a while to learn, but as you attempt this, you have to get the feel of each aspect of the shooting sequence! I think you are going to have to read this over and over to understand, what is actually happening. If you are overbowed, by that shooting a bow that is too heavy, my suggestion is to start with a light weight bow, that you can handle easily. This process is much easier learn. If done slightly off one time and then correctly, the speed of the shot and the control of the shot will show the great difference between the correct shot sequencce and the poor shot sequence. Take time to understand what has been written, then practice each aspect, as you get each one down, move to the next, then go back and break it down again, practice each sequence, till it becomes a good habit, Howard did, he broke it down, every practice session, his whole archery career, practice, the right practice, his great understanding of the whole process involved in shooting, the dilligent practice, is what separated "Howard Hill" from the rest of the crowd!Enjoy the read and have at it! Jacques "

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18

Sam Dunham's embedded Photo



A front look at Shulz at draw length.

Note the leaning head, canted Bow.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18

Sam Dunham's embedded Photo



A look from a side view of the lean in the body.

Note the leaning in, to some extent.

From: RymanCat
Date: 11-Oct-18




Pretty sure Fedora is a swing drawer. I watched him demo a heavy bow draw that way once at Denton.

I tried it and it felt uncomfortable for me as a form. When I draw I lean into that's what I mean by baring down on the bow. And I cant bow I can see my target better like that and been doing it as a game shot and not knowing that others shot like this too.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Ok, my question is; Are you guys that love this "style" doing it right?

Let's explore!

1....Schulz draws the bow with his drawing hand aligned under his eye and actually brushing his cheek until anchor (which means on a moving target if he short draws a little the arrow is still aligned ) 2... Schulz allows his bow hand to rise above the target during the draw then settling down on the target...this allows the muscles to preload and makes the bow arm steadier during the shot ( Hill also did this in a larger fashion ) 3...Schulz releases as he pulls through the shot. He doesn't pause at anchor and doesn't short draw. He pulls to his anchor and releases as he continues to pull, maintaining back tension and true draw length."-Nate Steen

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




OK, and at 3 minutes the Target/Paper reference to Bowhunter "not shooting well on paper."

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Have to get the best swing draw person in here, Lucy is the best!

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 11-Oct-18




Since my quote was mentioned above, I'll make these comments on the swing draw as pertains to the Hill style as I was taught by Schulz through video and personally....and those who practice archery, that think a target score is the most verifiable method of quantifying proficiency....well, you're wrong, it's not. These are my personal beliefs, I retain the right to believe and practice them as others have to disagree with them. To each their own.

The swing draw has been used more or less lately to generalize the method of swinging up a bow and shooting quickly. Hill's style of drawing the bow, as told by he and related by Schulz is one component of the Hill shooting style. Schulz said the Hill style is simple yet exacting. Just swinging up the bow and releasing through anchor doesn't mean you're shooting the Hill style or that you'll ever be proficient. You must start learning the process very slowly and methodically, totally committing each part of the form to muscle memory, just as you do for other methods of shooting. The biggest difference in my opinion with the Hill style is the ability to be on target once the full draw is reached and hence no need for a long anchor time...you release once anchor has been established. But you do anchor...or even pull througb the anchor. There is never a loss of back/shoulder tension.

The true Hill style of shooting a bow looks almost haphazard but in reality it is very precise. That part is lost on shooters wanting to shoot fast and accurate but do not want to put in the time necessary to ingrain the proper form.

If you watch the Hill movie shorts, watch the Schulz DVD, read both of their material in depth and go slowly, you will learn a very accurate way of shooting that is fluid, smooth, casual and relaxing. Watching Schulz shoot from beside his elbow I realized how good he was. At 84 yrs. he could still group arrows with feathers touching at 20 yards. Shooting with Schulz taught me to shoot fine tuned accuracy shots. At 15 yards, splitting sticks as thick as my arrow, both vertically and horizontally. One arrow at a time, then retrieve it. Not much room for error and for fun, sure beats shooting 2" groups. No center shot recurves either. Arrows had to bend around our bows. Then Shooting 90 yards at the 2" wand. Amazing how close your shots start grouping at a distance if you practice it enough.

As far as tournament accuracy,its no secret that Hill was out of his element in standard fixed distance American or York rounds compared to other tourney shooters. However, with archery golf, field archery, trick shooting and bowhunting he excelled. So there are different ways to measure the level of accuracy attainable.

Seems to me, when these sort of topics come up, the only videos showing accuracy and proper form ever posted are modern target archers....no one ever posts the videos of Hill, or even the Wilhelm brothers demonstrating phenomenal accuracy without holding at anchor. Why do you suppose that is?

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Now Lucy is the exception!

Note that her upright T form is correct and she has the alignment in a better position to engage the rhomboids.

Also, note; That she has her head upright and not leaned over or her body in a contorted position. Look at her still shot above.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Some may say that;

""...While this may provide for a quicker shot, it's not as efficient as the set arm draw, less consistent, and potentially more harmful.

Using the swing draw, the shoulder is initially forced upward in the socket, and may not return to the seated position at anchor. The drawing arm is initially pulling the bowstring at an upward angle instead of a lateral one. That hinders an efficient transfer of force from the back muscles and recruits shoulder muscles that should not be used in the draw. Combining the force vectors exerted on both shoulders, the shooter may find himself in a hunched position at full draw. That position not only makes efficient shoulder alignment impossible but may also overstress the joints and lead to injury..."

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18

Sam Dunham's embedded Photo



Again note the leaning head and somewhat hunched over position.

I must say that this position would take a lot of practice to duplicate with consistency!

From: Longspurs
Date: 11-Oct-18




Duh of course the swing draw requires a lot of practice have you read John Shultz book? What's your point if you have one. PS while it's good to see a young girl that shoots a bow she is creeping forward before the shot and also pausing before releasing two things you won't see John Shultz do. There are probably as many variations of the swing draw as there are people trying to do it. Your not the first wannabe genius that has had it all figured out some are fans some haters but if your not doing it like John your not doing like he was taught from Howard Hill and what you are doing is trying to fit your watered down half assed attempt to fit the swing draw, and then trying to make a case for some new discovery "only you saw " after watching the video 1500 times or trying to discredit the swing draw because no matter how many times you watch the videos or read the book you ain't got it and never will lol

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




I pay no attention to expletives as a reply. Waste of your time.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




How Howard and John are doing it?

"You can see Howard's and John's shoulders are not rotated around. They have back tension because they are pulling the string with the back and shoulders (not arms) and because they don't hold at full draw, they never lose the back tension. Hill's form is best thought of as when shooting a shotgun...why don't you go get a gun and try it? the tilting of the head is the same as in tilting the head to sight down the shotgun barrel. the drawing arm elbow is in almost exactly the same position when drawing the bow or shooting the shotgun....that's one of the hardest things in the Hill form to drill into student's heads....you can have back tension without the elbow pointing behind you."Steen

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Considered by many in Archery as a great craftsman and a faithful student of the Hill style Bow and shooting method is Nate Steen. I wish him or Bonin would post in this thread, Both know the method as good or better than most.

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 11-Oct-18




See above. That post and this will be my only contributions to this rambling. Sam....by your own eyes you can see that Lucy's form isn't the same as Hill's or Schulz's but hers is a swing draw and it is effective. Kudos to her and her father for teaching her a shooting method different from standardized target archery.

From: dean
Date: 11-Oct-18




I have talked to Nate about your threads yesterday, he may or may not respond. No matter what he would add, you would just throw your crap at it. John Schulz advised me many years ago, there comes a point when there is simply no point in discussing or participating with certain people. Getting away from target archers was the best advice John ever gave me in our conversations. I agree Longspus, some can and quite often, nay sayers cannot. I will not waste anymore time on the Sam posts.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Well, thank you for responding Nate!

dean, you may do as you wish! I certainly did not ask you.

I asked Nate, he chooses to label this thread as a "rambling" and that is Ok, respect his decision to not represent anything "Hill" here or anywhere else.

That is the essence of the conversation.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




quote;

"Seems to me, when these sort of topics come up, the only videos showing accuracy and proper form ever posted are modern target archers....no one ever posts the videos of Hill, or even the Wilhelm brothers demonstrating phenomenal accuracy without holding at anchor. Why do you suppose that is?" Steen

I think it is because of you and others properly schooled in the "Hill style" of shooting a bow seldom post to educate!

You may be afraid of anyone who might disagree with you but I can assure you that I would not!

I would say that the reason is a lack of participation on your part and that of others who really know what they are talking about.

Note that; I have not written here or anywhere else anything derogatory about you Nate, never!

I would venture to say that the opinion you may have is based on those with biase of some sort? Just guessing!

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




IMHO a good representation of the Hill style.

From: Longspurs
Date: 11-Oct-18




Sad just sad. I'm guessing no one you know personally will listen too you and you go on various forums to gift them with your genius.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Here is a talented swing draw shooter.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Howard.

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Oct-18




It's a great technique for Longbow, short range shots and Aerial targets.

I was teaching a guy with Longbow, he was struggling with front shoulder, and showed him basic swing draw i.e. to put slight loading at pre draw and scoup up the bow arm as he's drawing, it cured the high shoulder and improved his groups. It's not something I teach everyone but one size doesn't fit all and it just happened to work out a perfect fit for this guy in particular.

I know someone who shot a 3D tourney with Schulz, he didn't shoot any more impressively than anyone else, all techniques have their place and limitations. You can stay within those limits or make yourself more versatile, which I think is why Hill was so good at everything, he could adapt his style to any type of shooting.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Thinking there may be several who label themselves as a practitioner of the "Swingdraw" but as Nate pointed out, there are several different styles of incorporating it into their shooting, as in Lucy's case.

I would invite anyone who has a real understanding of the method, beyond basic at least, to comment as to their understanding of how the basics actually work?

It, the swing draw, may be a difficult thing to duplicate by the majority of shooters?

It goes very quickly, and an intuitive or instinctive aiming style may be one reason why practitioners are quoted as saying, "Not a Target method, but mainly a hunting method".

That might be a conflict since that would need a clarification of the word "Target" since we see Howard shooting Targets in the video above.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Zeta : It's a great technique for Longbow, short range shots and Aerial targets."

Yes!

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18

Sam Dunham's embedded Photo



Note at anchor the string is on the side of the face and not in front of the eye.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18

Sam Dunham's embedded Photo



Howard's anchor and string position do not utilize any "string blur" as opposed to some. Not a derogatory statement by any means, only pointing out the difference. You will notice the head position is similar though.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18

Sam Dunham's embedded Photo



Notice the same head position having the string to the side of the eye again.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Howard and John both have a bent elbow on the Bow Arm as opposed a more inline Bow arm on Demmer.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Hill was also much more than just a so-called, trick shooter, Hill is credited with setting up the first 'field archery' course, in El Segundo, California, in 1934, on the coast just south of the Los Angeles airport. He also figured in setting up the Pasadena Roving Archers field course in Pasadena, near the Rose Bowl in 1935. In 1942 the standard two 14 target field course distances and protocols, with walk-ups, fans, etc were set up. Those courses still exist. Howard Hills string of victories would likely have started around then.-Longbowguy

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Oct-18




I never used string blur with Longbow, because of the slight cant of the bow. Switching to ILF was fun, I sometimes had issues keeping the bow vertical, it was the Longbow in me trying to get out lol

From: Draven
Date: 11-Oct-18




"Zeta : It's a great technique for Longbow, short range shots and Aerial targets." Yes!"

May I ask you from where you know this? Or Zeta for what is worth? He said he studied horsebow techniques and if I watch videos of their tournaments they shoot way longer than the spitting distance you both claim.

From what you said in other topics you didn't have the discipline to shoot decent until you started to follow BB shoter's shooting sequence. The misleading starts with believing what others are saying without actually trying to see if is true or not.

From: Jeffer
Date: 11-Oct-18




I taught her everything she knows! (Insert satisfied "dad" smile here)

From: Mountain Man
Date: 11-Oct-18




Jeff it’s good to see ya back on the wall,,hopefully all healed up What’s new in the great white north?

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Oct-18




Draven short range to me is under 40y so not quite spitting distance. I shot Longbows for over 15 years Field, 3D tourney and fun stuff like Aerial targets, I have 3 World and 1 Euro title in Longbow and Euro champ with Barebow (shot BB since 2014) and 50 National titles in Longbow, Compound and Barebow and around 20, 2nd and 3rds from World European tourneys. Last medal was last year in France at World Archery 3D worlds.

I studdied horsebow speed shooting technique and taught myself one Summer after meeting Lajos Kassai I got pretty decent but no where near the skill set of the good mounted Archers. I would love to have done horseback archery but don't think I would get up again if I ever came off the horse.

I've shot most bow types and styles, sometimes just fleeting trys like the Olympic bow to see and appreciate other skill sets.

Seems like your'e calling me out and quoting me on something I'm supposed to have said, point me to the post and I'll try and clarify.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Oct-18




Thank you for your answer Zeta. On LW "short range" means under 20 yards. Your 40 yards accuracy is at least double the distance a hunter will take a shot. I call you out to clear things because you are used as buffer for all the believes in this world by some.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Oct-18




Thank you for your answer Zeta. On LW "short range" means under 20 yards. Your 40 yards accuracy is at least double the distance a hunter will take a shot. I call you out to clear things because you are used as buffer for all the beliefs in this world by some.

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Oct-18




Other info about me on Coaching, I have been Coaching 15 years, last 10 years full time. With my partner we own an Olympic Archery school (Indoors and 70m outdoors) in Tallinn, a shooting center 15km outside Tallinn with Conference facilities, Target range, Field and 3D range. We own a tourist spot in Tallinns medieval old town as well.

I Coach at novice level, some corporate events and competitive Archers, mostly Trad styles like Barebow, my parter Katrin teaches mosty Olympic and is Jnr National Coach (She's also 7 times world Euro champ)

32 years in the game and still learning, last winter tried Kyudo Archery for first time.

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 11-Oct-18




Sam, one final add, just for you. For years I have written on forums about the Hill style of shooting. It is out there, as easy to find and read as you found those videos of Rémy and Peter. The problem is, and I know this from spending time with Schulz....the Hill style of shooting is precise, exacting....yet simple and most people cannot or will not wrap their minds around the utter simplicity. That part escapes them and they are forever trying to turn the simple Hill Style of shooting a longbow into a calculated, technical, over analyzed process. It is a huge turn off to those who practice Hill's simplistic methods and therefore we abstain from engaging in these conversations.

Have a great day folks :)

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Oct-18




This ain't Steve's first rodeo. ;)

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




You know I started this thread for those who really push the SW method and not many, if any, of the SW proponents, post on the topic?

This should be a good time for you to "Share your knowledge" and tell others why it works so well for you!

I think I have put up a good basic outline for you and you are absent.

SW is pushed in other shooting threads and then not here, on your topic?

What gives, is the SW too difficult to explain or teach?

It really does seem that only a few really do it the right way?

Where are you?

From: Mountain Man
Date: 11-Oct-18




It really does seem that only a few really do it the right way?

Where are you?

Out shooting a bow and arrow

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Are you sure you are doing it right, the swing draw?

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Oct-18




Is there a right and wrong way? I sure many have personal views and think theirs is right. Can it only be wrong if your not getting consistent results that is deemed below average shooting.

What would be the Benchmark for this SW technique?

For example Barebow Stringwalking has a wide range of shooting styles and even number one and two Barebow at world Field level have very different shooting styles, so obviously some scope for subtle difference in a technique.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Some really good reading here from some knowledgeable folks.

From: Don Teter Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Private Reply Date: 23-Dec-11

fdp, I understand your frustration because I have had to deal with the same problem. In my exerience, the Hill style shooting form is very unlike target style shooting, and this is what confused me for a long time. May I make a suggestion that helped me? Don't change your anchor for now. Bob Weslely told me that Howard stressed the importance of keeping a low and posterior bow shoulder. If one looks at every picture of Howard at full draw, his bow scapula is sticking out so far, it looks like he is getting ready to use to fly away. This position is opposite of the correct position of an Olympic target shooter, according to Kisic Lee (US Olympic coach). This is because in target shooting, one pushes the bow arm and shoulder toward the target, but IMO, with the Hill style of shooting, one relaxes and lets the weight of the drawn bow push the bow elbow, shoulder, and scapula in the opposite direction.

Try this experiment: Stand with a closed position to the target and draw normally to anchor. As the string is drawn, relax the bow arm and let the weight of the drawn bow push the bow elbow into a fairly bent position and the bow shoulder into a low and posterior position in the shoulder joint to the point that the bow scapula sticks out. Let the bow hand relax its grip so the entire bow handle pushes against the base of the bow thumb muscle. If one stands at a closed enough position to the target, when the arrow is released the bow will not move off target, because its position is so posterior there is no place for it to go, and it will stay on target without effort.

This is, IMO, the basic feel of Hill style shooting. The archer relaxes his bow hand, arm, elbow, and shoulder, as the weight of the drawn bow pushes against them (This relaxes the string fingers as well.).

Once this feel is obtained, one can gradually change to a square and then an open stance to the target, while maintaining the same relaxed feeling; but it takes a lot of bow shoulder and back strength to do it. This is where a rhythm of shooting comes in because of the strength required in the shoulder and back muscles, while the fingers, hands, elbows and arms stay relaxed. If the relaxed feeling is lost, simply go back to the closed position to the target until the relaxed feeling returns.

As I began to relax, my anchor gradually changed to a more natural position. I am like you: I do not feel a tooth. But there was a certain place against face that I found was a natural anchor for me, especially as I began to relax my string fingers (and string thumb). Now, if I can only do this with a deer in front of me!!

I hope this helps.

From: longbowguy Private Reply Date: 23-Dec-11

Don Teter makes some good points. I just checked some of my DVDs of Howard Hill shooting to confirm and it looks as if his front shoulder is not much in line with the back one. This is different from what the Olympic style coaches, and I, and the compound coaches advise these days. It is very well known that he shot with a bent front arm. Now this comes naturally to some archers, especially muscular or stocky men, but some women and slender men as well. It does not come naturally to many of us. If it does not come naturally to you, I do not advise trying to do it. As to Howard's tooth anchor. He was missing a tooth, a second bicuspid, on his right side. And remember he used his own design of shooting glove, with double leather and a stiff insert. These gloves are stitched into a sort of truncated cone shape at the tip and extend nearly a half inch beyond the finger tip. I just checked and I cannot comfortably reach my second bicuspid with my finger, but I can with the tip of a Howard Hill glove. Anchoring that way is not a short anchor, fairly long, in fact.

I happen to be just about Howard's size. At least back in my prime I was about his size in his prime. That was 6'2", 215#. He was heavier boned and had huge hands, as many farm boys developed in those days. I was a towny. I once could have drawn his 110# elephant bow, maybe farther than he drew it.

I have studied his shooting style for years and can shoot very much like he did. I can also shoot a more extended target type style. I practice both. Now I believe Howard had very good, classic, form on this right side, the string side. He got his forearm and elbow in line with arrow and followed through straight back and long. This is evidence of fine back tension.

His left side is another matter. He had a bent elbow and and a sort of bent left shoulder. The combination of the right and the left sides gave him a very short draw for a man of his size and strength. He drew only 27 inches, maybe only 26. I, his size, draw about 29 in his longbow style, 30 with a target recurve. Our style is the same on the back side, but his was much more compact on the front side.

So what about it? Well, accuracy comes, I think from good alignment and form on the back side. A modern extended form on the front side I think is probably more consistant over a long round of target shooting. But for quick, dynamic shooting, at movers, flyers, and wild game, the more compact front side may well be better. Mr. Hill's exhibition shooting, his movie stunt shooting, the 3000 head of game he took, suggest that the flexible front side might be best. - lbg

From: two4hooking
Date: 11-Oct-18

two4hooking's embedded Photo



4 easy steps.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Oct-18




"Is there a right and wrong way? I sure many have personal views and think theirs is right. Can it only be wrong if your not getting consistent results that is deemed below average shooting."

This is the ultimate truth. Watching John Shultz in parallel with Howard Hill you can see things done slightly different. There is a saying: "Do as I say and not as I am doing it" when someone is teaching. At the end the advanced shooter is expected to find his own shot in the passed down knowledge.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Good illustration 2fer.

Draven, those who could answer your question are here but are not posting?

There are many ways to "swing draw" but there is actually a "correct way" according to at least one authority who has posted.

They should be the person to answer your questions.

I certainly do not understand the SW draw enough to give any credible advice.

From: Jimbob
Date: 11-Oct-18




Sam I like your posts. You stir the pot and get people to thinking.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Oct-18




The single person who has the answers IMO is John Shultz. He said 6 things that I consider true: - learn to use the arrow by its nock - bow hand shoulder to always be perpendicular on the target - you have a secondary anchor with the thumb behind the jaw - the speed comes with time and practice - he talked about cant and influence of it in aiming - he never declared the form as pure instinctive shooting. He said it can be enough and this goes with the mindset.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Sunset Hill has shot with and knew Shulz. He has posted here in this thread. Did you read his posts?

I think Nate knows what he is talking about as good or better than anyone else.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Draven, this is Nates post and is pure gold!

"Since my quote was mentioned above, I'll make these comments on the swing draw as pertains to the Hill style as I was taught by Schulz through video and personally....and those who practice archery, that think a target score is the most verifiable method of quantifying proficiency....well, you're wrong, it's not. These are my personal beliefs, I retain the right to believe and practice them as others have to disagree with them. To each their own. The swing draw has been used more or less lately to generalize the method of swinging up a bow and shooting quickly. Hill's style of drawing the bow, as told by he and related by Schulz is one component of the Hill shooting style. Schulz said the Hill style is simple yet exacting. Just swinging up the bow and releasing through anchor doesn't mean you're shooting the Hill style or that you'll ever be proficient. You must start learning the process very slowly and methodically, totally committing each part of the form to muscle memory, just as you do for other methods of shooting. The biggest difference in my opinion with the Hill style is the ability to be on target once the full draw is reached and hence no need for a long anchor time...you release once anchor has been established. But you do anchor...or even pull througb the anchor. There is never a loss of back/shoulder tension.

The true Hill style of shooting a bow looks almost haphazard but in reality it is very precise. That part is lost on shooters wanting to shoot fast and accurate but do not want to put in the time necessary to ingrain the proper form.

If you watch the Hill movie shorts, watch the Schulz DVD, read both of their material in depth and go slowly, you will learn a very accurate way of shooting that is fluid, smooth, casual and relaxing. Watching Schulz shoot from beside his elbow I realized how good he was. At 84 yrs. he could still group arrows with feathers touching at 20 yards. Shooting with Schulz taught me to shoot fine tuned accuracy shots. At 15 yards, splitting sticks as thick as my arrow, both vertically and horizontally. One arrow at a time, then retrieve it. Not much room for error and for fun, sure beats shooting 2" groups. No center shot recurves either. Arrows had to bend around our bows. Then Shooting 90 yards at the 2" wand. Amazing how close your shots start grouping at a distance if you practice it enough.

As far as tournament accuracy,its no secret that Hill was out of his element in standard fixed distance American or York rounds compared to other tourney shooters. However, with archery golf, field archery, trick shooting and bowhunting he excelled. So there are different ways to measure the level of accuracy attainable.

Seems to me, when these sort of topics come up, the only videos showing accuracy and proper form ever posted are modern target archers....no one ever posts the videos of Hill, or even the Wilhelm brothers demonstrating phenomenal accuracy without holding at anchor. Why do you suppose that is?" Sunset Hill

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




I am thinking there are many who claim they "Swingdraw" and are not very close to the pure definition of the execution of the thing?

From: Draven
Date: 11-Oct-18




You are starting to find yourself a place between them as I can see. I know Nate's opinion and I have no objection to what he says.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




Nope, just regard for the Man posting.

From: cvarcher
Date: 11-Oct-18




I made my greatest shot ever last Friday at the range. I had broken one of my arrows and so I stuck the shaft into the ground vertically behind my rolled up towel which I use as a target at 40 yards. My friend saw what I did and said why don't you shoot at the shaft. So I casually nocked an arrow, drew and shot making a direct hit smashing the shaft in pieces with the blunt tip on the 11/32" shaft at 40 yards . It all happened in less than 5 seconds.I doubt I could do that again for the next 20 shots but I would brush it every now and then. Magic sometimes happens.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Oct-18




I would like to clarify that I actually know very little about this topic.

I would hope it continues with those who do know about it and have years of experience in the proper execution of a Hill/Shulz swing draw.

Later

From: newell38
Date: 11-Oct-18

newell38's embedded Photo



From: two4hooking
Date: 12-Oct-18




Pickup a copy of Steve Graf's book and read it. The Hill style is more a philosophy than technical detailed instruction.

All the basics are spelled out in Schulz's video.

It is up to the shooter to religiously practice until everything is automatic and unconscious. Look and shoot relaxed and fluid.....not stressing about each minuscule detail of the execution or gear. Simplicity.

Most who shoot this way just do it....most are using a selfbow and homemade gear. MOst don;t care if YOU think they are doing it wrong. Your trying to over analyze something that has a core principle of simplicity... and I suspect it is for ulterior motives.

If you want to over-analyze everything go ahead. That doesn't mean everyone else has to drink the cool aid too. I enjoy shooting my bow and hunting too much. Good day sir.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Oct-18




I like how ol' Howard is doing the Asbell before Fred made it REALLY popular.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Oct-18




The funny part is this: Asbell made a "hunting situation stance demonstration" of HH as the base of his teachings while the Howard Hill stance is not taught with knees bent at all. You can see who copied who and why it ended where it ended.

From: todd Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 12-Oct-18




Okay, my two cents on this because I still work on it, had the pleasure of learning from Bob Wesley, converse with Nate Steen (a great knowledge base of the style and master bowyer). I would always default to Mr. Steen, with the knowledge by the way. Mr. Graf made a book "The American Longbow". It is a great read and should be included with "Hunting the hard way" and Mr. Schulz books. BUT!!!! Reading/watching videos are one thing and doing is another. I "mimiced" the videos and books information for while, until I understood that you had to customize it to your physcial make up. The simplicity is there and it works. We have a tendency to over complicate things, it's really simple. BUT!!! You have to put the EFFORT, TIME and PROPER PRACTICE in to really get it down, (muscle memory). To me this is where Mr. Graf book spells it out and is worth the price of the book. You have to get out and master the shooting, not just shoot at a dot, but get the arrow flight down in the brain housing group, this only comes from thousands of arrows. Now I am no where as good as some of you, do not compare with Mr. Steen or Mr. Ferguson, but when I put the time in, I harvest game with no issue, and do so ethically, that is my goal. Now, wax your string, brace the bow, and group arrows in a field.

From: two4hooking
Date: 12-Oct-18

two4hooking's embedded Photo



From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Oct-18




"The funny part is this: Asbell made a "hunting situation stance demonstration" of HH as the base of his teachings while the Howard Hill stance is not taught with knees bent at all. You can see who copied who and why it ended where it ended. "

Well if you're going to end up that way, might as well start of that way.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Oct-18




I see learning from a natural stance as the easiest way to understand the basics. Once those basics are "taken in" you just adapt them for the situation at hand. But here we are on pure subjective ground.

From: fdp
Date: 12-Oct-18




The key word as todd mentioned is NATURAL for YOU. The bending of the neck, and the knees (unless making a shot on a moving target, or uneven ground) is NOT natural for me, nor is natural for many other people.

One of the manin points in drawing a bow, and being able to shoot it well, FOR ME, are proper alignmnet on every shot, and using as few muscles as possible. I want every muscle in my body other than the ones drawing the bow. to be as relaxed as possible.

Tension when making a shot, whether mental or physical is a bad thing.

In MY opinion, how you get there is mostly irrelevant.

Folks forget the speed that Hill, and Schulz, and others shoot with has been gained be repetitive practice. It didn't happen automatically or overnight.





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