Not to be confused with the fallacy that some say they "Can aim before they even raise a Bow by burning a Hole"
To be clarified rather that Repetition based memory and concentration on a spot is a very real proposition AFTER the Bow is pointed with a shooter being ALIGNED with a Target and pointing it at it.
Yes, it is real and is very simple, "through repetition a human can get very good at pointing something like a Bow or a shotgun or a Spear, or other projectiles at a Target be it a catchers mitt or a Pheasant on the rise."
Eye-hand coordination and the brain all work together to make estimations based on repetition by having done it before and the brain remembering the estimation to make a correction for trajectory or range.
""Eye-hand coordination and the brain all work together to make estimations based on repetition by having done it before and the brain remembering the estimation to make a correction for trajectory or range.""
"Burn a hole" can be: - An intimidation method. - A way to convince the beginners to do what the teacher asked them - A metaphoric way of saying "focus" to a guy who doesn't know what "focus" means - A way of giving (to a beginner) just one thing to think of while the repeated shooting sequence develops - A "shortcut explanation" for a very complex process that involves also proprioception and intuition in successfully solving a specific task.
"Burn a hole" can't be: - an aiming method by itself.
The good shooters maintain the focus on that spot until the arrow hits the mark - the "ancient" definition of the "follow through is mental" not physical.
"For some, the mental aspect is the most challenging."
Mental aspect is like the air. You can't see it, but without it you die. Most of the times "obvious" is never explained and it should, but it doesn't get through the thick skin of the www.
Lots of philosophical banter again? "The center of a watermelon is the exact same size as the center of an aspirin." I watched that man shooting away from the cameras and the crowds. The other one he talked about is on the short shots 25 yards and under, his shots were more instinct, but on the longer shots the secondary aiming kicks in more. Eye control, focus that bounces all over the side of the barn will get you side of the barn accuracy. The last few inches of draw is where the shot comes together, when everything is getting in to the ready go position. If your eyes jump over to a butterfly off to the side, your eye/brain/hand control is broken. That is old school stuff and should be basic archery 101.
George has it correct all this does between you Sam and Mania is confuse young archers. If I had to learn over reading what you two say I'd jump off my tree stand with my harness around my neck. LOL
Case in point one day while running late to get to my tree I hurried across a lady's lawn on the farm. Short cut direct to my stand behind her house.
All of a sudden I went side ways and I mean sideways. I thought I had a stroke I had confusion, eye site all twisted up and felt like I was going to pass out from week in legs and it felt like on my right side too. I just had enough time to get a tree and hung onto it so I didn't go down. The lady was fixing dinner inside and opened the window and hollered to me Glenn you alright. You don't look like it?
No I was twisted and weak she came out with lemonade. I downed said deer calling me she said let me take you to Dr. No I will be alright if I don't make it past 1 /2 after dark you and boys come look for me.LOL I was determined to get in the tree that afternoon.
Ok one eye now mind you just one eye I am finishing my walk to tree. I got to tree can't see and said this is dumb not good at all should have let her drive me to Dr. No deer worth this I'm sideways. Aw screw it I am here now I'll just climb up and rest and pray. My eyes seemed crossed wouldn't focus and had a head ache like I got smashed in the head. Ok now what Lord? Ok don't one of my 8's walk in on me I didn't even have my arrow nocked and bow was hanging up. Real quiet and deliberate I grab bow and nock and arrow and with one eye that was twisted I laid the arrow on his chest and kilt him.
Now sick and feeble and thinking I had a stroke I have an animal down somewhere. I get down one eye mind you I follow blood trail 60 yards to animal that Stevie Wonder could have followed. I get on my knees and pray what to do next? Cell phone don't work on property and I'm 150 from her house. I get to woods edge and follow to house and nock on door. I got lady and her son to help me get deer in my truck and I drove to butcher one eye and then home all side ways.
Next morning I went to hospital and they said they thought I had an eye stroke. They asked all that happened so I gave them the hole play and they said they never herd such a thing I am barbarian. LOL
Nope I'm a hunter / killer and I don't put up with BS from no one and my world is black and white no side line BS. Nurse said Sr. I see that a deer don't have a chance around you it seems. LOL
So when you say vision I say what vision I didn't have any I knew where to hold on the animal and not break form when I lined up on him broadside.
Thus being a killer. You understand what I am saying all this and that you 2 come up with is all unnecessary it really is.
Keep it simple stupid!!!!!!!!!!
OMG all we hear about is Len what are you in love with him you keep bringing him up and I don't think Len is a killer just a target archer.
Another case we used to have a woman follow us around and she was a Len person. Len this and Len that. My buddy finally said Susan shut the F up about Len and bring him down to the range and we will have a shoot off. Not me but my mentor and I have no doubt Len would have gotten his clock cleaned and run out of dodge possibly with feathers. LOL
In simple words I asked you how much is invented by you and how much is objective reality in this show with multiple episodes called “burning a hole”. Now is plain american I guess.
I “burn a hole” before I lift my bow arm! If I break my concentration, that’s just what it is. I pick a spot, focus, raise my bow arm, draw and gone. When I miss, it is all on taking my eyes off the spot during my shot sequence. Nothing more, nothing less. Lance
That is soooo funny Ryman since actually quoted me in my OP,,lol
From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Private Reply Date: 04-Oct-18
Not to be confused with the fallacy that some say they "Can aim before they even raise a Bow by burning a Hole" To be clarified rather that Repetition based memory and concentration on a spot is a very real proposition AFTER the Bow is pointed with a shooter being ALIGNED with a Target and pointing it at it.
Yes, it is real and is very simple, "through repetition a human can get very good at pointing something like a Bow or a shotgun or a Spear, or other projectiles at a Target be it a catchers mitt or a Pheasant on the rise."
Eye-hand coordination and the brain all work together to make estimations based on repetition by having done it before and the brain remembering the estimation to make a correction for trajectory or range.
From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters Private Reply Date: 04-Oct-18
""Eye-hand coordination and the brain all work together to make estimations based on repetition by having done it before and the brain remembering the estimation to make a correction for trajectory or range."" d'accord.
"Next morning I went to hospital and they said they thought I had an eye stroke. They asked all that happened so I gave them the hole play and they said they never herd such a thing I am barbarian. LOL
Nope I'm a hunter / killer and I don't put up with BS from no one and my world is black and white no side line BS. Nurse said Sr. I see that a deer don't have a chance around you it seems. LOL
So when you say vision I say what vision I didn't have any I knew where to hold on the animal and not break form when I lined up on him broadside.
Thus being a killer. You understand what I am saying all this and that you 2 come up with is all unnecessary it really is."
We all love those stories Ryman, keep them coming, lol
The person I was referring to is Byron Ferguson. He is a lot more of an archer that what most can even dream about, he does a lot more than shoot balloons at close range. His accuracy beyond what most people ever shoot is nothing short of astounding. He does not speak in general philosophies. His language is pragmatic, objective and understandable. Much of what is touted here is to far off the wall to translate into any real use for those still learning how to shoot.
Byron holds and aims using split vision. Have read his book, "become the arrow" and watched his videos on youtube and his program appearances on Impossible Shots. Used to watch Bob Munden too, RIP.
That split vision according to the man himself is not used at closer ranges and he does not hold. I use split vision as well without a hold. For those who cannot do it, they also refuse to understand it.
Well this is getting totally out of control and off the subject. I can not only aim before raising my bow. I can aim without a bow in my hands. Read the definition of aim. I quoted it earlier.Ask me how, if you don't want to look it up.Good night all. >>>----> Ken
I believe and "DO" burn a hole as well, but not until the time is right! It has been proven that we have a window of about 3 seconds of intense concentration and then it begins to wane. So if you start burnign a hole too soon, when it is time to release, you will be on the down side of that cycle.
In addition to that, when your hand aligns with your eye that is allready buring a hole, TWANG! there goes the arrow. Neither your eye nor your bow hand cares one bit about where your string hand is in this process. This can be the beginning of target panic.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about instinctive shooting, and with the help of others, have improved my consistancy 10 fold by changing just a few things. Not the least of which was waiting to burn a hole until I hit anchor!
...oops, that instinctive word lights a fire under everyone.
Let me re frase it, I'm a subconcious gap shooter who never thinks about yardage or gap... subconciously!
We should have a vote among the instinctive shooters to change the name of the "aiming" method to "Subconcious Gap". Then there will be less to despise about the way we shoot.
LOL, I totally agree with BigJim on all these (there is no such thing as instinctive shooting) threads. The worst thing for me to do is to reference anything of my bow or arrow when i draw and release. If I happen to see the arrow or the bow while looking at what I want to hit, I'm off.
I shoot like BigJim and Live2Hunt and these threads are more entertaining than educational to me,they always end up with hurt feelings and people trying to convert shooters to their style or impress people with their knowledge.Let it be.
I had a nightmare last night of RC stumbling half blind through neighborhood backyards shooting urban deer.Troubling.RC you should wear a Jason mask.:)
"I believe and "DO" burn a hole as well, but not until the time is right! It has been proven that we have a window of about 3 seconds of intense concentration and then it begins to wane. So if you start burnign a hole too soon, when it is time to release, you will be on the down side of that cycle." quote
Aim when it is time in the sequence and not before!
Nope, just went on the coldest days so I could sneak up on'um, but do remember an archery instructor who could bust'em running. A cold rabbit who thinks he's hidden will stay put for a while pretty good.
I love walking up rabbits and small game hunting with a Bow. I remember reading an article years ago by a guy named Sam, cannot remember his last name but the subject was the subsistence hunts he went on with a frying pan and just killed small game and camped.
Really cool way to enjoy the outdoors and a simple Bow.
I think the hole burning thing that people talk about when they say they aim before they even draw the Bow is directly related with several things.
It is a somewhat out of control way to shoot that brings on TP and loss of control to even hold the Bow back and aim for even a second or so.
I heard a story one time about a SSer that had TP so bad he had to shoot if he drew the Bow.
He decided to break himself from the habit by drawing an arrow at his living room picture window because he just knew he could let down and not shoot.
He could not help it and had to shoot and it cost him a pretty penny to replace his window.lol
If you watch a picture or a SSshooter they do so by a cadence or rhythm and it happens quickly.
That is why the swing draw is so popular with Instinctive shooters because actually there is no way they can hold the Bow back and aim. The bow comes up and into view with the swing draw and the arrow is gone.
So instinctive makes it easy to be overbowed too because if the shooter was actually shooting the weight they could hold for 8 seconds or so like holding at full draw on an animal to clear a shooting lane they just could not do it.
I think the HH style Bows are always being touted that"I shoot 70 or 90 pounds: is because they are basically shooting them like an outfielder would throw a ball quickly to get someone out on a base.
It has to happen quickly because of the cadence required for snapshooting instinctive to work.
They love the swing draw because the Bow sight picture comes barley into view as it is brought up and Bam! they turn loose.
They actually have to use the swingdraw because they have not got the control to hold the Bow at full draw and aim.
The swingdraw is like winding up to throw a ball sorta thing.
It's been my experience that while many archers tout the value of long hold times with low DW bows citing how an animal may stall behind cover requiring wait out the shot?...(typically your treestand and ground blind hunters)...there's other archers championing the value of getting proficient shots off quickly...(typical of your woods-walking spot & stalk hunters)
And while the long holding/low DW crowd will cite superior levels of consistent accuracy?...the intuitive snap-shooter will question how accurate does one have to be to slam a BH through a chest cavity at 8-18yds?
Now I don't know if maybe you guys don't get out to many large 3D & Trad Only shoots...(the latter being where you find the lion's share of HH/ASL archers)...but it's my observation that things like TP and Short Drawing are NOT bow type, shooting style or even DW specific and any archer using any shooting/aiming style with any type bow of whatever DW?...is not immune to suffering a breakdown of their personal shooting system.
I've seen as many long hold/low DW folks get the yips and start double clucthing their loose as I've seen heavy bow archers come up short on the draw and they both had two things in common when it happens..
"Pressure & Fatigue"
Sam?...you recall just 6 months or so ago I purchased a 53# Jet Safari Premier ASL and promptly tore my shoulder up trying to build myself up with longer and longer hold times and ultimately sold the bow...
But my inspiration for even purchasing such a bow?...was while shooting with Archervic, Darren Nunez and Big George from T.A.S. at thge 2018 TBOF State Championships where Big George?...was holding all 67#s of his Koa risered Jet Warthog like a statue and for quite some time before loosing each shoot and he nearly 10'ed out the Howard Hill course.
It pains me to watch the many different types and styles of archery get weened down into an ever shrinking box until all newcpmers are left with the impression that...
"If I wanna be one of the boys?...Then there's obviously only one way to shoot my bow."
and that's wrong on more levels than I can shake a stick at.
Yes, and while we understand what is happening to the guys shooting instinctive it is very hard for them to come to terms with the truth.
Anytime that the norm is challenged even when Bow length is discussed, most refuse to see the truth because they just do not want to know anything that might disturb their comfort level.
Fred was not always a snapshooter, he actually shot field archery with a long bow but later on, he developed target panic and also seized upon the idea of a short Bow.
His shooting style and marketing skills created the so-called, snap shooting culture of short Bows and Instinctive shooting.
Liquid Tension... I'll take that challenge! But I do have to admit that I no longer shoot above 70, but upper 65-67lbs is in my wheel house. However, I feel that I am only holding 3-5 seconds on my worst day. Hit anchor, asses my anchor and that I'm at full draw, then turn focus to spot and BURN the hole with everything I've got, and then pull through with my elbow until arrows gone... 5 seconds when having a bad day.
There's little need to hold longer unless caught by a critter.
I am the guy who usually contradicts Sam, but he is right in some points: old guys who became idols had a Formal archery training. They were not self-taught guys, they developed their way based on the necessities but on a very well defined shooting sequence. I've read somewhere that HH never told the people to shoot heavier, but he said that with training shooting heavy can be beneficial. Subtle difference that makes things more clear.
PS I will really like to know how many went and took John Shultz's crushing course in HH style and how many had to change not only minor things. I know this is impossible to find since there is no reason to share personal stuff and I agree with this.
He had guidance in family since NOBODY starts archery at 4 yo without having a skilled father who wants to pass down his knowledge. The beauty about the Idols is that behind them is always an unknown supporter. In the texts written by Jerry Hill he developed his aiming system because gap shooting was not good enough. Gap shooting is knowledge passed down, not something a "monkey sees monkey do" learning is teaching you.
I think that at the beginning of 20th century the influence of target archery was more pronounced in the "day by day" archery than we like to admit today.
Most of this thread is two guys trash talking and declaring what is wrong with everyone else. It is quite pointless to discuss the fine points of what John Schulz teaches, when the two narrators do understand anything about it and declare automatically wrong. 'Make up your mind boys, do you want to hunt or shoot targets, because the two don't go together.'
The difference is the mindset, they do work the same form wise. John Shultz talks about approaching the target the same way with the bow hand, he talks about 2 anchor point and he talks a lot about "If form is right, the arrow is close" to where it was supposed to be. That's form. Aiming method is riding the form and defines the tempo and rhythm. Based on JS teachings and his arrow nocking training, swing draw is not even a "one shot one kill" technique, it is shoot as many as needed.
Oh, that's funny dean! I do not "trash" talk anyone!
I am objective, very much so but only post archery related to the OP post.
Shulz shot way too quickly for it to work for me, and that is my opinion.
His videos on youtube show him shooting at coins and sheets. The "wind up draw" aka, the "swing draw" is an execution that has not only no consistency for anything much past 17 yards but is a snap shooting nightmare that is almost assuredly not accurate enough to even compete on a short 3D course!
That is why NO ONE, who snaps and swings is in the money, ever!
The only thing that snapping is good for is close up moving targets and most good archers can adapt to those shots easily.
"Shulz shot way too quickly for it to work for me, and that is my opinion."
JS said the speed comes with time. JS demonstrates what it can be done when you master the "whole". If someone can't understand what is taught and difference between exhibition shooting and real life shooting is not JS fault. IMO his style of shooting requires a lot more training than average people put into. HH said something like "all want to shoot like me, but nobody is training as hard as me" or something similar. Speaks volumes about the system itself.
With all these "Burn A Hole" and "Instinctive" threads going on?...It got me so hot and excited I've shot nothing else but my maples off my Hawk R/D while my CH and my Spig/CVX BB rig got left on the hooks all week and I just came back in from a session whereby I felt kind of degraded by some of the mocking diatribe here belittling instinctive/snap and just for giggles?...held my Hawk bolt upright and buried my index to eye tooth holding about 43 of my Hawks 45#s at 27 1/2"s executing each shot with extreme discipline and conviction and ya know what?....things went pretty well for the first 4-5 ends of 3 arrows and then the shake and spray fest began making it quite obvious I'd had become fatigued.
After a 15-20 minute break?...I went back out and did things my way...bow laid over at about a 30 deg cant and just let'em rip with one smooth fluid motion and a clear mind and didn't stop having a blast for aboput an hour or so.
Where there some random fliers?...yep...outside of that were my groups just as tight?....yep...and sometimes "tighter"...(with far less effort and way more fun)
Bottom line?...if someone told me I could win Olympic gold tomorrow if I'd give up instinctive/snap forever today?...
n archery, we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns around and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself.” – Confucius, Chinese Philosopher, 551 BC-479 BC
I was hoping to draw some fun BS. You guys came back with real live target shooter smack. Like I stated before, those who either cannot shoot like Hill advised or cannot learn it discount it and never know a thing about it. Hill style shooting is only for those coordinated enough and dedicated enough to put in the work required. I actually advise most shooters to use bow sights when they have trouble grouping and don't have the coordination or ambition to put in the time. You boys would fall into the 'better off with bow sights' group.
HH is not an instinctive shooter and he never considered himself an instinctive shooter. He created a shooting sequence that requires less thinking about the aiming method when someone is at full draw, but he had a very good aiming method to develop on it in first place - gap shooting. His entire form is part of the aiming system, from the bow hand swinging straight up, to the last 8-10" of horizontal draw and head position. When you shoot thousands of arrows with good HH form, aiming becomes "instinctive"- "instinctive" like in natural reaction for a known situation. His only mistake was he never told everything and made it a "full package" - his students were told different things - one was taught form, other aiming system. Based on the writings of his nephew, he thought that if someone understands his shooting and aiming style will be very good for both competition and hunting. If he could be brought to life, I am sure his first words when he sees this silent war between target and hunting archers would be WTF!
Draven you are correct about that, but Hill was also all about versatility. I know that Jerry said that Hill never told anyone person every detail. Jerry was working on a book. I would be very curious what he would have to say on that matter. Someone ask Jerry how the book is coming along, I want one. Sam, I know how to shoot targets with a target bow, I shot target bows for many years, but like Hill, being a small game hunting fanatic like he was, I also need speed and versatility. It makes no difference to me how anyone wants to shoot. My last three shots at deer amounted to three dead deer and all three shots were at twice the distance that most would consider a shot, the difference from open country spot and stalk hunting to using a feeder probably. It takes a lot of work to shoot well Hill style and it takes time and dedication to refine it. A three or four pin bow sight will produce better results with static shooting than any three under, gap or string walking system for most people, but there as well it requires refined and consistent form. I recently gave away my last bow sight along with the bow it was screwed to. A perfect 60" Browning recurve that I bought at a garage sale for $5.00.
Any teaching that was passed down will have the student's interpretation. There is a reason why this saying:" Don't do how I am doing, do how I am telling you to do." was created.
"Draven you are correct about that, but Hill was also all about versatility. "
Dean, versatility is nothing but adapting something that works to anything you see fit. And he had the brains for that! To make a living from your art is not something easy to do even these days.
Well now that you killjoys sucked all the magical dreams out of my instinctive/snap-shooting pipe?...I guess tomorrows session will see me coming out of the mystical forest and climbing on that dreary lame azz BB rig treadmill again.
LOL..go Jinks! Dean, I have a recurve set up a sight to train with some. Shooting a sight will really tell you how good your form is.
Do not doubt anyone's hunting prowess Dean.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to shoot either and do not know how anyone could take it that way?
I would also suggest that there are guys looking to try things that might improve their shooting and that is why I posted Jimmys form video in this thread.
I just like to discuss some of the things I see here that seem to indicate a heavy following of things that could be improved on.
One of them is shorty Bows and snap shooting.
The short Bow thing IMO is a direct result of sales gimmicks and Bear selling shorties himself.
The little short Bows are usually harder to shoot than a longer Bow and snap shooting causes all kinds of form and accuracy problems that usually leave a trail of gimped animals.
If one can shoot accurately past 20 yards with a short bow, they are better with them than i am. The best short bow i ever had was a 50" 50 pound Browning Cobra. I had to shoot three under because of my round finger nails causing that pressure point issue, but every good buck that came by was about 30 yards out and I did not dare to shoot that far with it. The one buck got fooled, he didn't know that i had a 66" Jack Howard Jet at home. He even stood still long enough for me to put the pin on him. for a time I tried to hunt with the same low anchor that I used in my target form, complete with the kisser button and the peep sight. That was way too clumsy in the field for practical use. I have seen people that were plenty accurate out to 25 yards with pure instinctive shooting, past 25 yards, I aim a bit, even though it looks fast there is 'imaginary' secondary aim involved while pressing through anchor. If you watch the Hill dvd in slow motion, sometimes his release is completely fluid and sometimes not quite, there is finite corrections, which leads me to think that his release was aim based with the aiming sometimes working out one way or the other. However, even Howard Hill missed sometimes, according to John Schulz, he didn't punish himself over it. For those that do not understand, with the Hill style draw, the final aim gets tightened up in the final inches of flat draw, but it becomes quite automatic over time. This year I am on autopilot up to about 35 yards, past that the hold and squeeze is about a half second against a hard anchor.
In “hunting the hard way” he says how he aims: he knows where to put the arrow in relation with the apparent size of the target at a specific distance BEFORE he draws. With an arrow with flat trajectory he can misjudge the distance with a couple of feet and still be in kill zone. The brain gives the command and the bow hand follows, the last inchies of draw seals the deal. His long shots are still fluid, he just slows down more the last part of the draw until he feels his bow hand is in right place. This “burn a hole” is not an aiming method as some think, it was never HH aiming method even if he said the words.
Burning a hole is only really an issue if you assume that's all you need to put the arrow in the middle.
Instinctive is very much about burning a hole and probably why it gets a bad rep, the guys are so busy burning they forgot all the other parts that make up a good shot.
For us tourney types it's more like aquire the target, run the sequence and if any burning is to be done it's only after the alignment and BT is correctly established. We miss like anyone else but the accuracy and more importantly the consistency is there.
That’s the real problem Zeta, instinctive shooting is not about burning the hole, it’s about repeatedly shooting with same form until you program your brain to move the bow hand where is needed in relation with a target when your attention is on the point you want to hit. You don’t program yourself by missing 2 out of 10 and Form - the way someone sends the arrow - is the single way someone can control.
Yes and yes, but I would not even pretend to be a person telling Zeta, he knows and knows a lot about all types of shooting.
Now we got it!
Yes, Draven.
I do not pretend to be a great shot, I still struggle past 20 yards.
My goals are set high so I can keep getting better.
I would venture to say that I likely would pass a Deer past 25 or so but with all the good established archery technique, maybe someday I may feel the confidence to take a further shot?
I told a friend the other day who has just started out after he asks, "I am good at ten should I go to 20?"
I ask how good? He said " I am close," I told him to get very close at ten, then when he was exceptionally good at ten, then get better again.
Draven I agree but a lot of poor Instinctive shots have bought into this myth about burning a hole. They believe it so strongly they're not even willing to step back and figure what's wrong with their shot, they just keep pounding away thinking they're not Focused enough on the burn bit and it will all magically click into place. I know Archers like this, been shooting 10 years and not progressed past basic shooting competency. Although some are quite happy at this level but some I do see the frustration.
You cannot offer to help, they will just roll up like an Armadillo, they have to come to you first.
We cannot all be the best Archers (I'm certainly not) just to strive to be the best we can. Because it requires hard work and constant maintenance is the main reason I've been shooting 30+ years, if it was easy think I would have quit years ago and found another sport. Some people don't want or even feel the need to put the work in, they're quite happy with the status quo but I doubt they will stay in the sport as long as me.
When I make a new set of arrows, the first thing I do is establish what the point on range is for them with the intended bow and then work in, paying attention to the secondary position of the top of the point ferule. All of my arrows are the same length, bop. After a few hundred shots in a shooting sessional a particular distance things get automatic, when I make a distance change of ten yards or so, I pay attention to that secondary 'imaginary' point of aim on the first few shots. Over time, every year those aiming things meld and the autopilot comes easier. I have more to work on the most people, I change hands all of the time and I want my shot left handed to be identical to my right shot and at the same rhythm. Admittedly, I shot way too many arrows the past month and took a bit of a beating for my efforts.
Written in 1859, and true today. Normal target distances back the had shrunk to 100 yards, even at the Grand National, because of the equivalent of burning holes etc. that make a long target 20 yards for way too many people. Take the time to read it. Written in England by Robert Ford, the man who really made archery what it is today for serious archers.
The "aim" is undoubtedly the most abstruse and scientific point connected with the practice of Archery; the most difficult to teach, yet the most necessary to be taught; upon which all successful practice depends, yet respecting which the most sublime ignorance generally prevails; the want of a due understanding of which is all but universal, yet without which understanding an impassable barrier is presented to the progressing a single step beyond the commonest mediocrity. Ignorance of this fundamental principle it is that causes so many Archers endowed with every quality required to make great and accurate shots—health, strength, correctness of eye, be.— to stand still, as it were, at a certain point, immoveable, and, if I may coin a word, unimproveable—year after year hammering away in the despairing pursuit of bulls' eyes, without any perceptible improvement or increase of skill, until at last, as I have known in some instances, the whole matter has been given up in sheer hopelessness and disgust at continued ill-success. As if to add to the difficulty of obtaining the command of this most necessary principle of aiming, many of the authors that have treated on Archery have (to judge from their silence) appeared to think such a principle unneeded; whilst others who have noticed it have combined to lead the unfortunate aspirant in the wrong direction. In vain will he search the standard works on the subject through, to find a common-sense or scientific principle laid down to assist him on this point. Ascham will tell him that, "to look at the shaft-head at the loose is the greatest help in keeping a length that can be, but that it hinders excellent shooting;" and afterwards, that, "to have the eye always on the mark is the only way to shoot straight." Now, as keeping a length and shooting straight at the same time, are just the two things necessary to hit the mark, and the best modus operandi for the one is, according to Ascham, the worst for the other, I do not think much practical benefit is here to be derived from him. He docs not even hint at any principle that might by possibility combine the two requisites, neither does he give his readers any further practical assistance, as to getting the straight line and elevation, than is contained in the two above quotations. If he then turn to Roberts, (who, by-the-by, on practical points mostly confines himself to quoting Ascham) he will find from what can be gathered from his (Roberts's) own observations, that the eye is conceived to be an organ of such wonderful power as to be able to accomplish all the Archer may require in the way of elevation, &c. And he is indeed right so far; but whilst he asserts that as the eye is taught, so it will continue to exercise its functions, he totally omits to say how or in what manner it is to be trained so as to arrive at the required powers and capabilities. The author of "The Modern Book of Archery" asserts "that the best, and indeed the only, expedient for attaining perfection in shooting straight, is to shoot in the evening at lights;" and herein, indeed, as so many others have done, he but follows in the wake of Roger Ascham, but improves upon it in favour of the "town resident," by substituting the street gas-lamp opposite his sitting-room, for the paper lantern—policeman A 1, it is presumed, officiating as marker. Waring confines his instruction simply to observing that, "when taking aim, the arrow is to be brought up towards the ear, not to the eye, as many suppose," and that "the Archer must not look along the arrow, but direct at the mark;" and that "the mark is to be visible a little to the left of the knuckles." There are other and smaller works, but they are cither plagiarisms from those already named, or ignore instruction upon this part of shooting altogether. Now, just let my readers imagine such desultory instruction upon aiming as the specimens quoted, given as regards rifle-shooting, for instance, and it will be instantly perceived how wanting it would be, and how utterly insufficient to enable a man to arrive at anything like excellence in this pursuit. Imagine a man, desirous of hitting a mark at 100 or 200 yards with this weapon, being told to keep his knuckles to the right of the bull's eye, or to keep his eye on it, and trust to his hand following it so accurately as to make his shot all right in the end, without further assistance of any kind. How different are the means actually employed to obtain accuracy here! to what a nicety is the sight regulated! How beautifully calculated to a hair's breadth. A small telescope is even sometimes fixed upon the barrel to insure greater certainty of aim; and even with all these concomitants, the rest is needed by many to make assurance doubly sure. No hand and eye, or lantern and gas-light theories are considered sufficient here. Yet for the bow—an infinitely more difficult weapon to shoot with—such things are gravely set forth as all that are needed, or, at any rate, all that there are to work upon. Hand and eye will do a good deal, no doubt—it will enable a man to throw a stone or howl a cricket-ball a short distance with tolerable accuracy, or to bring down a partridge or pheasant with a projectile that spreads and covers a space of perhaps two feet in diameter. These and other things of the like nature it may do; but it is comparatively useless when depended on as the only means to enable the Archer to strike with anything like certainty, and with a projectile analogous to a small bullet, a mark much beyond his own nose. The powers of hand and eye are, as with the rifle shot, too limited for him. The truth of this observation may be corroborated by the fact that so many curious devices have been originated by different Archers to obtain some surer means of acquiring certainty. Some will endeavour to find some object to the right or left., above or below the target, which they can apparently cover with the arrow, and which shall yet be about the spot to aim at, so as to cause the shaft to drop into the mark. One I knew of, for sixty yards shooting, used actually to fix a bit of stick into the ground for that purpose. A nice sort of system this to depend upon, on strange grounds and in matches, where no well-placed tree or happily-located stick may happen to be at hand just in the right place. Some have covered the glove of the bow hand with a series of lines of different colours, carrying the eye along one or the other, according as their notion of the line or elevation required, whilst others have improved upon this plan, by making a pincushion of their left hand, by inserting a number of pins in a piece of leather fastened thereon for the purpose, each individual pin serving as a guide for the particular line or elevation wanted at the time. Others, again, have contented themselves with making their left hand their guide, varying its position in conjunction with the mark according to circumstances, high or low, to the right or left hand, as the case might be. Now these things, and all others like them, are "dodges"-—or, as Ascham would call them, shifts—and will never lead to a successful result, or to certainty and accuracy of practice; they may, perhaps, occasionally prove of assistance to those who have no more scientific knowledge of shooting in quiet private practice, where the mind is unexcited and undisturbed, and no distracting influences are likely to arise; but woe to the Archer (in a target-hitting sense) who depends upon them on strange grounds or in matches, or upon any occasion where he may be more than usually desirous of shooting well, for fail him at his need they infallibly will. Strange it is that any such shifts and inventions should ever have been found necessary. Let a gun for the first time be put into a man's hands, and tell him to aim with it, and up it goes at once under the eye, and intuitively he looks at his mark and takes his sight along the barrel. Now the arrow represents precisely an analagous object to this latter; there it is, ready at hand, straight and true, and like as the rifle bullet flies accurately in the direction in which the barrel is held at the moment of discharge, so the arrow will equally, and with the same correctness, fly in the line in which its length lies, and in the direction indicated by itself, when drawn up for the loose—taking for granted, of course, that the shot in all other respects be correctly delivered, that the arrow be a good one, and that no counteracting influence of side wind interfere. The object then to be attained is such a mode of aiming as shall enable the Archer not only to keep his eye upon the point of aim (for this is absolutely necessary for all successful shooting, whether with the gun or with the bow), but at the same time to have a sufficient vision of his mark, and of the length as well as the point of the arrow.
Great shooting Mr. Stout and attached is a pic of a short bow accomplishment I was rather proud of where I put a group of 4 arrows in the red clay base of a stump that was about 45yds off the front steps of our cabin's porch in the Blue Ridge using my 56"/46# Thunderchild but as it turned out?...
45yds was "My Point On" with that rig and I was shooting Saunders Bludgeon Head Points! LOL!
Had I attempted to instinctively snap-shoot that stump from that distance?...more than likely I'd of lost at least 1 of my arrows to the woods.
Too All: This is a great thread here where many sound veiwpoints are being shared and while scorecards and increased distances would undoubtedly show a great disparity between the solidly held form of tournament archers and the fluid motion of snap-shooters?...there is no right or wrong way for an archer to enjoy their archery be it going for gold or simply flinging arrows just to enjoy the view of their flight and I'm proud to say...
"Draven I agree but a lot of poor Instinctive shots have bought into this myth about burning a hole."
"Bore a hole" it is not a myth, it was just took out from the context and made something it is not. This is the context:
"Whether you use a gap method or whether you use Howard's peripheral vision, secondary vision the single most important thing you can remember when you are shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot ... Pic a spot, concentrate on that spot, try to black out everything else, don't look at the antlers or the size of the animal, pic a hair, a shadow, whatever you can. Howard used to call it "bore a hole" through it, concentrate on it ... "
Draven...thanks and when I need form practice or to shoot scored distances greater than my backyard offers?...I form shoot my spig/cvx 68"/34# BB rig but?...
When I need weight training execise and just want to relax and have fun?...I snap shoot my 64"/45# Hawk R/D longbow.
When I can decide between the two above?...that's when my 64"/38# Hex7.5 Covert Hunter comes off the hooks as it's my all around go-to bow and has been for nearly two years now. :)
Good shooting Bill. One of the things that follows form is 'expecting to hit the target every time you shoot an arrow'. Of course we don't always hit the target, but we want to, and we should expect to. That's what makes it so darned fascinating to me. If it's a leaf on a hill side at eighty yards, I shoot to hit it and the bonus is that beautiful arrow arching toward the target. We should take time to have more fun with our bows and arrows. Technical stuff is okay, but like philosophy, is best tended by a nice fire in mid January.
GDS: I fully agree and while others may not?...I was once them...but as I age?...I seek more the sublime gratification in the things I can do (and still enjoy) rather than exposing myself to the pressures of entertaining unreasonable expectations as it is said that...
"expectations: often times become premeditated resentments" ;)
LT...disagreeing is the easy part...understanding?...not so much.
This is whay I love about archery and what I like about trying to master it all.
I fully agree that solid, repeatable ingrained form and consistent execution are the bedrock of any successful tourney archer but that is not to discount the virtues rhat a more intuitive shot execution can and does hold especially at closer distances of unknown yardage.
I think it was Gary McCain who set everyone on their ear during a topic of discussion just like this one when he said something like...
"I use all the tools in the box...I start off my shot by amchoring solidly with proper aligment and BT and then begin to aim but finish the shot off instinctively"
I love the fact that I can appreciate what zetabow is stating yet also understand the things which Draven states (as I smile knowing that he knows of which we both speak)
Too me?...no matter which bow or style I'm shooting?...it seems there's always that little fudge factor that works it's way into some of my most accurate shots...riflemen might call it "Kentucky Windage"...Pool sharks might call it "English"...but whatever an archer calls it?...yo me it's...
"The ability to compensate...for whichever of several critical aspects of the archers execution that may be slightly off...and do so successfully in the final moment just prior too the loose."
Draven read my original post, where I said the myth is burning a hole is all that's required to be an accurate shot, we all know the Form has to be there as well, regardless of aiming method.
Little bit of walkback fun with a 50# Short Saluki Turk, good form = good accuracy (I think it was out to about 35y) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYXqkywWqjo&t=13s
Zeta, I used your text just as pretext to post the context because beyond what you and I are saying, most of the target archers think "burn a hole" is BS. Ignorants are on both sides. You wrote a couple of days ago that a very good shooter was hitting just X and when you asked him, he told you he looks at the middle of 11. This is "burn a hole" used "a la lettre" in target archery. In reality there is no difference between target and hunter archer when the guys are at their top.
Draven is correct...to the best of my knowledge and understanding the "Burn A Hole" term is and always has simply been a metaphor for "Extreme Focus & Concentration"...no different than other mantra's folks embrace such as "Aim Small/Miss Small" or "Pick A Spot" but because "BAH" is the slogan furthest out on the fray?...
it's the one folks like to understand the least and pick on the most.
You took my post out of context, I never once said burning a hole was wrong. What is wrong is burning a hole and doing something different with their body position and Form every shot, this is what I used to witness in tourneys, the Archers had no clue as why they couldn't hit a 3D Deer at 20y, the just thought they needed to focus harder and it would all come right.
You can tear my post apart into a them and us Target v Hunter but that's total BS and you know it's not what I meant at all.
The perfect shot is taken when it is decisive and definitive. If someone needs to let go it means he did something wrong during the shot. LT, can the Target archer not draw until their mind says they are "good to draw"?
All these kind of topics are talking about this separation Zeta, doesn't matter your personal opinion or mine. If you feel I hurt your feelings using your affirmation who's making circles in the target community about "burning a hole as myth" I apologias.
I don't really understand what's being asked of me, the question seems a little ambiguous to me, I feel you've already put words into my mouth so I'm really done with thread.
Lukas Novotny lives about 120 miles north of me and is the Bowyer who built the Saluki horsebow that zetabow used in his vid link above yet they execute their shots using extremely different shooting styles so?...
If you are happy with pie plate stuff? Burn holes and snap/swing.
If you want 2-4 inch groups at 20 yards consistently. you will need to use a sequence and seat in at anchor, aim and use the arrow as a reference.
There a lot of guys shooting tighter than that, consistently right now that do it bare Bow all day long.
All this Fred Bear snapping stuff and burning holes was created out of the necessity to be able to shoot with Target Panic long before there were books on the subject and a universal understanding of the cause.
Slow down, use good upright T form and draw the Bow to anchor and aim.
Better yet, get to a Rod Jenkins Blackmon school and learn more than you see or read here.
It's enough to watch Lancaster shoot-out and understand that nobody is superhuman and keep it all day long in 2"-4" at 20 yards. Unless you are talking about 2"-4" around the point you want to hit and this is the famous pie plate.
You never see anyone winning anything with 60inch bows at the major shoots either.
The whole burning hole snapping and swinging Instinctive mindset is the result of a culture that was created by Fred Bear and somewhat confused with Howard Hill.
The difference is that Howard used a longbow and actually had good form.
Hill used the arrow also as a reference and shot split vision.
The fact is if you want to be the best you can be you need to forget the whole snapping swing culture and catch up with your shooting by watching and learning what is winning now and works.
Forget Fred and Howard and watch how archery has progressed into Bare Bow accuracy now, not 50 years ago.
Sam, you have to understand that human brain is hardwired to survival aka all the techniques with weapons developed for warfare or hunting follow the same path: the most efficient result with the less effort to get the job done. Maybe now you understand why snap shooting and swing-draw shooting is normal.
I have two friends who have TP and they never touched a stick and string in their life. They are compound shooters. Can we please stop this BS with snapping = Target Panic?
You never see anyone winning anything with 60inch bows at the major shoots either. The whole burning hole snapping and swinging Instinctive mindset is the result of a culture that was created by Fred Bear and somewhat confused with Howard Hill.
The difference is that Howard used a longbow and actually had good form.
Hill used the arrow also as a reference and shot split vision.
The fact is if you want to be the best you can be you need to forget the whole snapping swing culture and catch up with your shooting by watching and learning what is winning now and works.
Forget Fred and Howard and watch how archery has progressed into Bare Bow accuracy now, not 50 years ago.
Good one Draven. Some target archers think that instant releases mean a non aimed shot and if there is not a long hold it is automatically called TP. Hill was correct, about being a target archer or a hunter. Target archers only get to shoot animals that are as easy to hunt as foam deer. That is why all of the complications go into the hunting setups, like stinky pads, automated feeders, corrals, blinds to accommodate 'T' form. That does not sound like in kind of advancement in 50 years at all. I shoot pheasants, no target archer is ever going to tell me how to shoot pheasants. Baseball and softball size groups on a foam deer is nothing, the guys do it all the time right in my back yard shooting range, I wish they would spread it out a bit or chip in to help pay for the kill zone cores.
First, not everyone who doesn't hold for five seconds is a snap shooter. Second, not everyone who shoots fast, or I should say relatively fast, is snap shooting or not in control. I think we tend to form a mindset that there is only one way to do things effectively. I never was a world class shooter, but I got to the 480 scores out of 560 in field archery and I never held for five seconds for each shot.
I also know what target panic is as I had a short bout with it back in the days of yore. Interestingly enough, I fixed it in one day, albeit accidentally, by pulling back my brother-in-law's compound bow a few times. Something clicked in my brain in that AHA moment. Lucky I suppose but it is what it is.
Shooting arial targets effectively doesn't create target panic, nor does taking just two seconds at anchor...if you are comfortable with the shot process. We are all dipped a bit differently and not a single one of us knows enough to tell others they are wrong, especially if they are hitting what they are shooting for. By the way, I can still shoot a 400 on the field round at age 72 and 3/4 ;) so I'm happy with me and how I shoot, but it ain't for everyone that's for sure.
Oh no you don't Sam Dunham!....This is the 3rd match you've thrown at the BAH dynamite shack so don't you even begin to think that it's okay to tuck tail and run now! LOL!
When you first started doing videos several years ago you had TP really bad!
I mean we all talked you through it and you began to get back control and started doing very well with your sequence and accuracy. You even attended a few shoots but now you are sliding backward again!
You must be getting back the TP so you are going back to swinging and snapping and you will deteriorate badly this time I am afraid.
The whole swing draw thing was created by those who had TP so bad they could not hold a Bow and aim it so they would swing the Bow up and into their sight plane just long enough to snap an arrow and that is like the baseball wind up thing to throw a Ball yes.
Well, Bill, you are now dogging me to keep the thread going so let's do it and keep the discussion going.
I hope it continues so others even though they may not see the Malady that the swing snap thing brings on, may at some point find out the truth and start a disciplined sequence approach to their archery.
So, let's go with some good clean archery discussion, I'm ready.
I agree George, good post and a good perspective from you as always. I shoot relatively fast myself compared to others and work daily on control with draw and let down.
George, just a second or two is plenty of time to aim, agreed on that totally.
If you watch some of these guys snapping it seems they do not ever anchor? They are shooting so fast they sometimes do not even reach draw length!
I know aerials require a fast shot and contend that any good archer can adapt to them if need be and also to shoot fast in running game situations on small game.
I would not advocate shooting at running deer or elk.
Ok Bill, the truth must come out aye? When you first started doing videos several years ago you had TP really bad!
I mean we all talked you through it and you began to get back control and started doing very well with your sequence and accuracy. You even attended a few shoots but now you are sliding backward again!
You must be getting back the TP so you are going back to swinging and snapping and you will deteriorate badly this time I am afraid.
The whole swing draw thing was created by those who had TP so bad they could not hold a Bow and aim it so they would swing the Bow up and into their sight plane just long enough to snap an arrow and that is like the baseball wind up thing to throw a Ball yes.
Well, Bill, you are now dogging me to keep the thread going so let's do it and keep the discussion going.
I hope it continues so others even though they may not see the Malady that the swing snap thing brings on, may at some point find out the truth and start a disciplined sequence approach to their archery.
So, let's go with some good clean archery discussion, I'm ready.
Oh no you don't Sam Dunham!....This is the 3rd match you've thrown at the BAH dynamite shack so don't you even begin to think that it's okay to tuck tail and run now! LOL!
Pin wheel – When your arrow hits dead center in a scoring ring.
Spider – When there’s an X in the center of the bull’s-eye, and your arrow hits the center of the X.
Chunk – A bad shot. “Man, I chunked that one.”
T-Rex arms – This is when the archer doesn’t extend his or her arms all the way out while shooting.
Jar-licker – A shot where the arrow just barely touches the line for a higher scoring ring.
Tweener – An arrow that’s between two scoring rings; also, a shot on a 3-D course that’s at a distance that doesn’t end in “0.”
Grip it and rip it – Just pull back the bowstring and shoot. Don’t think about the shot.
Kiss out – When an arrow is deflected into a lower scoring ring by another arrow already in the target.
English – Pushing or pulling your bow arm at the shot to account for some defect in your form, in an attempt to “steer” the arrow into the center. “I had to give that arrow a little English to get it in the 10-ring.”
Tae Kwon Bow; Bow-Jitsu – Exaggerating your body movements at the shot to account for the aiming device sliding off the center of the target just as the arrow is released.
Lincoln logs; Poles; Line cutters – All of these are terms applied to large diameter arrows used in target archery to maximize the chances of hitting higher scoring rings.
Kentucky windage – Aiming off the center of the target, or leaning the bow right or left so the bubble in the level is not in the center, to account for windy conditions.
Too much pinky – When your back tension release goes off faster than normal.
Sandbagger – An archer who intentionally shoots lower scores in order to compete in a division that’s below their true shooting skills.
Training wheels – The cams/wheels of a compound bow. (This is usually a term of derision aimed at compound bows by recurve and longbow archers.)
Gunch – When your mind thinks you shot the arrow, but your body didn’t let it go, and you flinch.
Slammer; Hog; Toad – A trophy-sized animal.
Slick head – A doe.
Stewie – A mature doe.
Snot – Arrow lube.
Sticks – Arrows.
Sled; Ax; Rig – An individual archer’s bow setup.
Robin Hood – When an arrow hits another that’s already in the target and ends up perfectly inside the shaft.
Body stabilizer – The front-weighted midriff of usually older, male compound archers.
Drive-by – Releasing an arrow as the aiming device moves across the center of the target.
Punch – Slapping a trigger or thumb-button release instead of squeezing through the shot.
Bucket hatter – A recurve archer.
Trad – Shortened name for traditional archery.
Inside-out – An arrow that is fully inside the scoring ring. It’s not even touching a line.
Struggle stick – A recurve bow. The term originates from the image of a recurve archer shaking while trying to pull the arrow through a clicker.
Molly-whopped – A perfect shot on a deer, as in, “I Molly-whopped that buck at 20 yards.”
Burn a hole in the yellow – Keep your aiming device locked on the 10-ring until you release the arrow.
Mash the gas – Pushing with your bow arm and pulling with your release hand with equal pressure through the shot.
