For those of you who have tested or hunted with both the serrated and non-serrated versions of the same broadhead (for example, the Magnus Black Hornet regular and the Ser Razor, or the Stinger vs. the Stinger Buzzcut), have you noticed any actual difference in penetration between them? It looks as if the serrated ones would saw bone or gristle with those sawtooth edges, but on the other hand, it seems you would be getting more sharp cutting-surface edge with the non- serrated broadheads. Is there a real-world difference between them?

I have debated this many times. If you have the horse power it may not make any difference. Serrations and vents pick up fat and hair and slow penetration to a degree. Period. I get a clean pass through on bear and deer with 42 pounds. A clean flying 2 blade head and 3" fletchings. Won't use more than 4" If it needs a lot of fletch you are slowing the arrow or it is not hitting exactly point on. Ever bust a bare shaft. It wasn't flying point on and wasted all the energy. Didn't penetrate far either did it?>>>----> Ken

I find micro-serrations from the edge of a file (as Hill demonstrated) or a round chainsaw file to be superior to a delicate razor edge in cutting through multiple types of mediums (bone, skin, fur, fat, tendons, etc.)and easier to sharpen in the field. That is my opinion and others will disagree as this debate is as old as broadheads themselves LOL.

The larger steak knife type of serrations on those commercial heads I would think to be more of a deterrent to penetration. I had a friend that used similar heads in the 80's and I was not impressed.

"Serrations and vents pick up fat and hair and slow penetration to a degree. Period." I found an arrow with a puff of deer hair on the end. Under that puff of deer hair was a completely covered with matted deer hair replaceable blade Thunderhead, it seemed sharp to me. It was missing a plastic vane. About 400 yards down the trail I found a doe with a perfect lung hit with the missing plastic vane stuck in the entrance hole. I saw so blood on the trail any where. There can be various explanations, but this was on the stiffest aluminum shaft that Easton every made, the 24, power was not lacking in the hit. In all of the deer that I have shot and the equal number that my son has shot with serrated vented broad heads, not one, not one, had the vent or the blade plugged with fat and hair. I have had serrated Hills go through deer ribs without cracking the rib and pass far through the deer. My wife gets pass throughs with 38@26 bows whether her heads are vented 140 grain serrated Hills or shaving sharp Eskimos. I will make no definite statements on what does not work, but with nearly 100 deer kills between me and my son, shot with file sharpened and serrated heads, vents and serrations plugging with hair and fat and getting limited penetration has never been an issue. Like that 'Are You Being Served' Brit com, I am unanimous about that.

Non serrated 100%

My buddy and I used to shoot serrated Steelforce BH’s and had horrible results, absolutely horrible.

Super sharp Non serrated cut on contact BH’s will do everything better imo

The Stingers are not a true serration like a steak knife.

Anyone ever use the Copperhead Magnums, that was a stop in its tracks serration.

There is serrations and then there are serrations. Anything from what a crosscut saw looks like and down too what you have to use a magnifying glass too see. Don't judge one by the other!!

Bob

Judging from the knives in the block in the kitchen, non-serrated are easier to keep sharp. And that’s about all there is to it for me.

Penetration in what? If you're talking about deer size game, you can shoot completely through them with a sharpened spoon.

Some like it and swear by it but I never felt there was any difference and arrow through an animal is just that. A sharp head is whats needed.

You just can't reinvent a sharp head no matter how well you sharpen and take off weight. LOL

Dean check out the next post after yours. Some folks are just not very observant. If you have over 100 clean pass through kills. Never a failure to pass through, never lost a deer,and never a vent or serration filled with hair and fat you must be living right. Please don't change a thing. For the rest of us common folk and for the sake of argument. Restaurant Steak knives are serrated so they will saw through meat with out having to resharpen every time some one rubs them on the plate and they go through the dish washer.Try to poke a a serrated blade through 10 oz. leather compared to a keen edge. How many serrated swords have you seen? A weapon made for a quick stab. Serrated scalpels for operating? Compare knives & Swords to saws and the intended tasks. If you would like I will hang a fresh hog hide and shoot every serrated vented head you want to through it. If I can't show you vents and serrations that pulled hair through and clogged with fat. I will clean and resharpen all of your broadheads. I am really just getting warmed up. You quoted me and I can't resist a challenge. For the rest that might be reading along I will stop now. Thanks for letting me (VENT) >>>----> Ken

I think different types of heads benefit from different types of edges. As example, I would never serrate a Pearson Deadhead, shot four deer with them. The last one was a bitch of a tracking job. The arrow did not track straight through the deer. I believe long slim heads are better off with the sharpened edge in the blade rather than on it. Not my original terms, Tom Mussato came up with those while refining the Hill technique. There is a difference between rough and keen with file sharpened serrated heads. As Bob pointed out Tom Mussato style serrations and heads that have the roller coaster ins and outs is not the same. If in doubt, make any spoon shaped head shaving sharp.

I should add that I always advise newbies to shoot Zwicky Eskimos or Deltas and get them shaving sharp. It is quite easy, methodical machine like strokes with a file, then the same with a jewel stick, light strokes and then light stropping with the rough side of a leather belt and hair will fall off your arm, legs or arm pits as good as any razor.

Wasn't referring to file sharpened heads that is another subject. Heads like the buzz cut. I think that is the name. I am sure there are others out there I just haven't paid any attention to them in quite a few years. Have a good season. >>>----> Ken

The Herters version of the Browning Serpentine. Lots of guys used Herters stuff in our town. One fellow hit a deer square with one of those. I remember he complained that it was almost impossible sharpen, but he thought he got them good enough. He hit a deer square in the neck, claiming it curve in a big circle heading towards the deer. The deer took one jump and the arrow flipped off the deer with the point packed full of tallow and fat. A guy in the next town ridiculed him for not getting the real thing, the Browning Serpentine, the same thing happened to him twice before he gave up on them. I was the guy that got no penetration on a shoulder hit with the Copperhead, I think my arrow virtually bounced off of that deer. I must add that I have complete confidence in Eskimos, the only reason that I don't use them is that with tapered cedar arrows at my arrow length and draw weights, I get too light of an arrow with 125 grain heads and appropriate spine at 27" bop.

Now Ron if you didn't have dips filed in that head, it wouldn't have stopped at those filed in serrations, it would have cut that bone clean in two the the leg would have fallen off, what ever that comes from. Whatever works for folks. Artery tissue is long muscle fiber, it is tougher than vessels and arteries can move out of the way. Whitetail deer are not a very good medium to test penetration. Hill tested on wild boar, The biggest thing I ever shot with a Hill broadhead was a domestic buffalo that developed an attitude and could not be handles enough to get into the loading chute. I used a heavy bow, and a stuffed Microflite. Even that doesn't count for much because the arrow went through the lungs and never even touched a rib.

I'd endorse what Bob (aromkr) said when he stated " There is serrations and then there are serrations. Don't judge one by the other!!"

In my younger days, as a young graduate medical researcher, I spent some time at the Johnson and Johnson Orthopaedic research center in Bournemouth England. J&J spent millions and millions of pounds researching the sharpness of cutting edges to separate tissue from first incision of dermal and sub-dermal layers to cutting edges to remove a single cell thickness of a nerve axion.

Serrations like steak knives were never considered as an advantageous design feature. However mircro grooves (less than 1 micron) perpendicular to the cutting plane were considered to have some beneficial effects.

All edges are serrated.

This has been studied in depth. The thinnest sharpest finished blade is the best choice for hunting. The highly polished blade reduces coagulation.

Each vessel-lining cell that's disrupted releases the protein prothrombin. As prothrombin comes into contact with the blood's plasma it is converted to the enzyme thrombin. Thrombin acts as a catalyst, converting fibrinogen in the blood into fibrin; the final chemical reaction required for blood coagulation. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of hemorrhaging This is Ashbys writing.

For other cutting a fine blade with micro serrations is superior. This is not true for bleeding out game.

Cody is spot on--- in layman's terms when cut with dull or ragged edge the process he explained transmits this to the brain which then responds by starting the clotting process. A very sharp cut bleeds w less pain and the clotting process is not as fast-- equalling more blood loss, better and shorter trails. Ever cut yourself on a piece of volcanic glass when you were a kid and couldn't get the tiny cut to stop bleeding? I will stick to the sharpest smoothest edges i can get, unless I'm sawing through a tough ribeye.

Serrations can work good on a knife or saw, which a broadhead is neither. Serrated broadheads are more to get your wallet.

Cody is correct, but there is no brain involvement whatsoever. All mechanical.

Bottom line, the sharper the cut, the better the blood. That’s why ophthalmic surgeons use obsidian blades - IIRC, the same thing that releases clothing factor leads to scar tissue, and your eyeballs are no place for that.

If a guy could get a serrated edge blade just as sharp as a straight-edge blade, I can see where a serrated edge could have some advantage under certain circumstances. I’m sure Ron’s serrated edges are plenty sharp as they are...

Not so sure that vents have no effect on drag, but it’s hard for me to imagine that as the decisive factor....

I don't know why you guys fight about this stuff, we all know that mechanical modern heads are superior in every way, the engineers that design them make it so, number one.

Greencb and Therifleman are spot on. I hesitated to use the medical analysis. The last time I did it was said " I don't want to operate on them and I don't want to shave them. I want to kill them." I guess that desire suspends all the laws of physics.

Dean you seem to have swapped your position 180° from killing a 100 deer with 38# bows. Have you been convinced? (I hope so) or do you just like to argue both sides? Hope every one has a great season with short blood trails. >>>----> Ken

One problem with Obsidian surgical blades is that they dull very very quickly, also because they're so thin (50(ish) angstrom) they can cut stuff you don't want to cut

A file sharpened head is not a serrated edge. Many of what are called serrations are a "scalloped" edge. Bread knives usually are scalloped and will stay sharper longer for cutting bread because the majority of the edge does not contact the cutting board. Serrations are mostly found on folding knives these days and are best for cutting rope or heavy cardboard because of their saw-like cutting action. A file sharpened edge is good on a broadhead because it is aggressive and will cut a rough cut but it is not a serrated edge. I would not use a serrated or scalloped broadhead.It's not needed and could be problematic. Learn to sharpen a good head the right way and you will kill you game.

I killed one deer with a 37 pound bow when I tore a muscle weight lifting, my wife uses 38 pound bows. I never said that i killed 100 deer, between me and my son we killed over 100 deer. I think mechanical heads are the biggest joke to ever hit archery. The LW has had a number pointless threads that are all about philosophy and dead theory. People love to argue theories all day, You can all argue anyway you want, you can declare anything you want to be true just because you want it to be true, but in the end cutting angles, metal types and shot placement are still the key and the differences in the field may be something that was completely overlooked in the scenario, lots of variables. Like I say if in doubt, get Zwicky Eskimos and sharpen them with a file or a hone, get it front of straight flying arrow and shoot it where it needs to go and it will all work. For myself, I cannot tell if a Schulz Hunters Head file sharpened or honed to hair shaving sharp is better, the arrow flies through the deer, so far, have all gone down in sight. I have more confidence with long narrow heads putting the cutting action into blade rather than on it. My one choice and that depends entirely on the broadhead shape, either way it doesn't change the outcomes very much. What I know that does not work, when someone gets a fine microscopic burr edge that can cut an arm hair but fails to butter knife dull going cross ways through deer hair. That is something watch out for with soft heads like Bears, it is easy to get that tiny bur, but it comes undone fairly easy. For Bears I would recommend file sharpening and getting some of the cutting action into the blade.

The obsidian blades natives used for thousands of years were serrated (flaked)....

I have shot the magus stingers and buzz cuts into foam blocks. I haven’t noticed any difference in penetration. I use the blocks that they use for shipping utility trailers for broadhead targets.

Knowledge gained through experience beats speculation and hearsay every time

I’m not saying one is better than the other, but here’s a thought. Does anybody think that serrations would lessen the friction as they pass through a target? Every serration is a spot on the blade that is absent some metal, so less metal is contacting the target as it passes through.

MP

“The obsidian blades natives used for thousands of years were serrated (flaked)....”

By necessity, not choice. They didn’t work well because they were serrated, they worked we’ll because they were SHARP.

They were serrated because you can’t reliably shape a knapped head any other way.....

No to the less friction. Every part of that blade is touching stuff. It is totally encased. It so easy, drag a serrated blade and a keen knife over a surface. Poke them through things. See for yourself. Get the experience. Shoot them through a fresh hog hide and the shield, examine the vents and scallops. That might be like saying a tire with mud grips has less traction because less tire is touching the surface. Think teeth on a file, friction. Teeth on a saw or steak knife. Not made for stabbing or penetration but sawing. Swords thin and keen edges. Enough? >>>----> Ken

The mud and snow tire does have less traction than a slick on pavement.

MP

"Knowledge gained through experience beats speculation and hearsay every time "

Yup!

Okay, my two cents. In my humble opinion, the purpose of serrations, is not further penetration. Without getting all sci-fi, if you have great arrow flight, with good kinetic energy with a razor sharp broadhead, it will do the job in the boiler room. That is not debatable, I hope. The major issue is the "lack of bleeding" that occurs with the hole that is created for blood trailing. The classic broadhead, I will say "zwickey", will cut a great penetrating hole. However just as in every animal, once this occurs, tissue and other things will "fill" the void. Making the bleeding out of the animal, minimal. This is why a pass through was and is so important, along with other reasons. Thus, broad heads was widened to help. Now, if we go way, way back we know that obsidian points by design, had micro serrations, and the great Howard Hill (which I believe reinvented it), knew that this helped open up the channel. Thus, the serrations was put on to further help this. Now, just as an average traditional bow should not use mechanical heads (because lack of "speed") the same can be said with the serrations. This is why a single edge gives the "twist", like Simmons to open this hole up to make it harder (not eliminate) the slit closing. Think of it this way, an incision which is used in surgery, because the skin wants to close quickly and clot better. While a laceration, is harder to do the above. All of this is my my personal opinoin, from decades of bowhunting, and experimenting with a great many broadhead designs and personal test. I know this is not the season to do this, but in the off season, I strongly recommend each archer do their own to test, to know the limits of their tackle and confidence. Not matter what always remember a broadhead harvest by hemorrhage.

keep your string waxed.

I conducted a penetration test yesterday-- - bow 36# at my draw length pika. 400 grain total. Nonserrated magnus 125 stinger. I got a pass through on my heavy metal barn siding and arrow went another 15 yards. String slipped off my fingers in a freak incident, but it sure cut right through that metal---sorry not planning on doing a serrated comparison. Just another reason to always have a safe backstop...

Knives with serrations were created for those who couldn't sharpen a straight edge blade, it was and is a good selling gimmick. The saw was mentioned it was created to cut through hard objects such as wood. Knives with serrations, saw through the objects it is being used on. Will it go through different mediums yes. If you need something though that has to have a fine clean cut line, you aren't grabbing a cutting instrument with serrations, you are grabbing a cutting instrument with a straight clean edge. Using a knife with serrations takes more effort to saw its way through material, a straight edge cuts its way through with less effort. A dull serrated knife WILL saw its way through material to a point, when a dull straight edge won't. That is its only advantage. DANNY

Well said Linecutter. Facts are facts.

Good point tradmt. >>>----> Ken

I've been bowhunting deer for over 60 years and stopped counting how many deer I've killed years ago.. I started filing serrations on my broadheads around 1960. The first heads were 2 blade bodkin type heads. I've tried just about every head that came down the pike and most were good deer killers, some were ridiculously inefficient.

I've never had a problem with a serrated head. I've never had the serrations clog with fat and hair, never had lack of penetration because of the serrations. I still file serrations on some of my heads. I file them on the back 3rd of the blade. I can sharpen the full length of the head with a file or hone, I'm a firm believer in keeping my heads sharp.

The reason I still include a serrated broadhead in my quiver is because I believe (after many years of using and observing) it does a better job of cutting large tough arteries that can be encountered on a "marginal" hit... that a straight edge may slide past. Also a razor edge can sometimes lose sharpness on it's thin edge after it passes through hair, hide, gristle and bone, whereas a serrated edge holds it's cutting ability better.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me but if they would use one for a few years they just might change their mind. 8>)

The picture is an Ace head that I serrated

I meant to say THREE blade bodkin type were the first I serrated

Ron the difference I can see between YOUR serrations and other serrations:

Others come out to a point between the valleys. Points saw and tear, not until you get into the valley of a serration do you get any real kind of cutting surface, but most of it has been ripped open by the points before reaching the "cutting edge" of a serrated knife or broadhead. Again that was one of the selling gimmicks, the points protected the cutting surface to keep it "Sharp".

Your valleys, come out to what are basically micro edges, they aren't points. You maintained parts the original cutting edge of the broadhead when you cut your valleys. So with yours, you actually increased the cutting surface, you got the best of both worlds. Nicely done. DANNY

Yes Ron. Some "experts" "facts" are not what others have seen from experience when it comes from killing stuff with a bow.

Going by all of the 'facts' and 'experts' the last two deer that i shot with file serrated broad heads that were less than one inch wide, a worn down single bevel Hill and an old Schulz Hunter's Head, both arrows should not have passed through, the deer should not have laid out an obvious blood trail, or died in sight at about 60 yards. I thought both were rather average, but apparently none that should have happened at all. I should be out hunting, but I fear those four blade Herters and original 160 Grizzlies in my quiver are not up to the task. My back may feel better tomorrow, then maybe those heads will work better too. Just kidding those Herters are for turkeys, but i bet they would work on deer in a pinch.

I use a scalpel with a razor edge when I cut tissue.,never use serrations

"Your valleys, come out to what are basically micro edges, they aren't points. You maintained parts the original cutting edge of the broadhead when you cut your valleys. So with yours, you actually increased the cutting surface, you got the best of both worlds."

Cutter, if you look closely you can see that the "micro" edges can be sharpened by honeing down one side of the blade and the "valleys" sharpened by going down he other side.

Valleys and high points ….I've got to start reading what I write a little more closely . 8(

I am Ron's biggest antagonist about serrated heads. We carried on a long spirited debate until he posted the "End of the Trail" silhouette and ended it. The debate is documented. My hunting career is about as long and probably not far from the number of kills as his. I didn't publish articles and tons of pictures like he did. Know one knows me. Incidentally some of his pictures canoeing with a deer in the bow, Bearskin coat,Tomahawks, etc. are priceless. Ron also shot much heavier bows than I did. That is an important fact. Now my friend is rehabbing a shoulder and shooting less draw weight. I urged him to use a better head. I offered to test his broadheads hunting and shooting through fresh hides. I assured him vents would clog and serrations would pull hair into the cuts and through the hides. He and years of experience told me he wouldn't much believe my tests. I said Ron if you are not going to believe the tests, Autograph the heads for me. I won't abuse them and I will mount them in one of my favorite pictures of you. I never expected to see the broad heads. Surprise, they showed up. One factory serrated and one he serrated by hand both autographed. I wouldn't take nothing for them. Ron I know they worked and killed lots of deer. You can look at them though and tell they are inferior to a number of better heads on the market. Too bad I can't post pictures. Take care of the shoulder Ron and don't over do it. We are not as young as we were. No worries though, 40 pounds is still deadly (with a good broadhead) Have a good season my friend. >>>----> Ken

Ken I wondered what you did with those "priceless" heads I sent you. You never told me the results of your test. I just figured you were very impressed and didn't want to admit you under estimated my serrated heads.

Most old bowhunters my age are in a home by now, I've been blessed to still be hunting at 82. I figured you were gettin Long in the tooth like too because sometimes old age affects a mans thinking.

Have a good season old timer.

PS, JFYI it don't sit well when you tell a man his broadheads are inferior....it's like tellin him he has an ugly dog an I know you Texans think a lot of your dogs. 8>)

Ron They are priceless. You are famous I am not. Yes I am getting long in the tooth. I have the years of experience too but it wasn't made public.

My thinking is still good and so are the shoulders.

Your broadheads are not inferior as in no good. I admit they have had a lot of success. Inferior as in, not quite as good as some others.

When you said you had no confidence in my tests,I told you I would not abuse them and asked you to autograph them. Yes I thought that was -- The End of the Trail -- I was so surprised when they came and autographed too. Thank you so much.

I have the prettiest gal and the ugliest dog in Texas. Don't mind you saying so at all. Just don't abuse him or we both get angry. He guards me pretty close too.

If you want to send unsigned heads I will run exhaustive test with yours and one of my favorites. I will take pictures of plugged vents and hair filled serrations. Get them photographed and posted. You see I have done the tests before,just never got stuff published. There is a thread up now,seems like it was concerning the weight of broadheads. There is a picture of a vent 1/2 full of dirt. Since it was dirt I skipped over it but they will do that with any test medium.

You have beautiful bows,Hawks,and knives. I like the motorcycle and canoe too. Did you get the glass replica yet? As I said we just had one small difference in taste. You need a little better broadhead.:^) I hope you get your all time best buck this season. Take care of the shoulder. Thanks again, >>>----> Ken

I don't argue with my elders. Well, that's not true, but I'm not doing it here. ;) You two guys are old enough to be my big brothers so I'm chiming out of this one. God bless all you old pharts who are still chasing these crazy animals with sticks and strings. I couldn't care less who's famous and who ain't...just keep shooting and caring for one another.

Thanks George. I think we do, at least I do. I loved the debate and cherish the autographed broadheads. My sincere motivation is that others learn from our experience.

You and I have had a couple of spirited discussions too. Yet you sent me the nice deer stick pin. Certainly no ill will is meant.

I never wrote anything or had a computer, until well into my middle 70's and begin to think some things need to be passed on. Archery needs new young recruits. It took a lifetime to learn what a few weeks on a computer could have accomplished. It surly would have cut down on the mistakes and failures.

Glad to have you for a little brother.

Shoot straight my friends and have a terrific season.

>>>>-------> Ken

I've shot stingers and buzz cuts. Also bear razor heads with file cut serrations and without. I've shot more than a few deer and I've noticed no real world difference in penetration.

Likewise Ken.

George I have to know was the "Likewise" for my-- brother comment,have a good season, or the post just above yours.>>>----> ken

it says likewise Ken. Who's Ken?

I've tried a lot of different heads in my 37 years of bowhunting & always end up back with 2 edge mostly zwickey's that said iv tried many different sharpening methods over the years & without question or any dought in my mind since I started using the razors edge wheels (a polished stroped on cardboard edge)my kills are quicker & trails shorter than ever

Zwickey is a good head. I use the wheels and just a buffing wheel a lot. I kept lots of knives sharp doing Taxidermy. I can't work with out a shaving sharp knife. >>>----> Ken

Dean I am Ken. I always sign posts and there is a long one about 4 posts up from your question,along with many others. I am beginning to think folks don't read posts if they are more than 1/2 dozen words. Take care, >>>----> Ken

I be kidding >>>>Ken.

I couldn't count the times I've demonstrated how to sharpen a two bladed head to someone in my shop. First forming the bevel with a mil bastard file. Then smoothing the edge on a fine stone until that thin feather edge turns up on the off side. Then back and forth from one side of the blade to the other, bending that thin feather of steel until it flakes away from the head. Then some stropping on an old razor strop ending up with an edge that will split a frogs hair.

After all of that I still like a couple arrows in my quiver with MY version of a serrated edge.

Old men are prone to be set in their ways so I know I won't be able to change my friend Kens mind about serrated heads.. 8>)

I couldn't count the times I've demonstrated how to sharpen a two bladed head to someone in my shop. First forming the bevel with a mil bastard file. Then smoothing the edge on a fine stone until that thin feather edge turns up on the off side. Then back and forth from one side of the blade to the other, bending that thin feather of steel until it flakes away from the head. Then some stropping on an old razor strop ending up with an edge that will split a frogs hair.

After all of that I still like a couple arrows in my quiver with MY version of a serrated edge.

Old men are prone to be set in their ways so I know I won't be able to change my friend Kens mind about serrated heads.. 8>)

Sorry Dean I missed that. After all I said no one knows me.

Nor will I ever change my friend Ron's mind. Debating is fun and educational. It benefits the observers the most.

Ron I sharpen just like you described. However I find that harder steel doesn't create a burr that rolls back and forth quite as much. After the file and first stoning a buffing wheel with rouge on it makes a very keen and polished edge. If heads or blades are not damaged or very dull,just the buffing wheel will bring them back. CAUTION EVERYONE A buffer is one of the most dangerous machines in the shop. It will grab and throw things hard enough to stick in the wall much less body parts. Keep a firm grip but use a light touch. Stay well below the center line of the wheel with the edge barely turned into it. Even better is from the back side of machine and use the top of the wheel so it is turning away from you. Beware of center line and turning the edge into the wheel. If it grabs it pulls it deeper then throws it.BE safe.>>-->Ken

Harder steel??? Ken are you shooting them new fangled stainless steel heads? As for the buffing wheel I prefer you keep a stone or honesteel in my bag.

When your broadhead needs touching up in the field how do you carry that buffing wheel in the woods with you...backpack with the buffing wheel and a deepcell battery?

Supposedly those half-serrated knives are the ticket for cutting rope etc. This is where we switch from slicing to sawing.

Sawing is back-and-forth, slicing is one direction. I want my broadheads slicing forward so I see no advantage to a sawing edge.

"Supposedly those half-serrated knives are the ticket for cutting rope etc. This is where we switch from slicing to sawing. Sawing is back-and-forth, slicing is one direction. I want my broadheads slicing forward so I see no advantage to a sawing edge."

Dana where did you get the notion that a serrated edge is like a saw and only cuts by a sawing motion?...did Ken tell you that? 8>)

I have a pretty good scar that still shows after 22 years that I got from being "sliced" with a serrated edge. It bled like a stuck pig and needed stiches in the ER to close the wound.

So much for that "Sawing" myth.

When these stop working I will change to something else.

Used Magnus 4 blade serrated for a quick kill on this bull. The serrations were pretty much jammed tight with fat and gristle. Despite the success I have switched to non-serrated.

if a broadhead is serrated like this one, most of the cutting surface is taken out of action. that does grab tissue to be cut, it deflects.

Sorry missed a word that does NOT grab tissue to be cut,, Same goes for ones like this,

I don't think you could shoot this through a rotten pumpkin :):):)

The ring reminds me of the worthless "Trail Eze" or Cookie cutter head that was on the market nearly 60 years ago

A Zwickey is all you need.

Another worthless head from a bygone era, the Browning Serpentine was supposed to cut two round holes like a double barrel shotgun. It's only worth now is to Broadhead Collectors.

Ron you are hilarious. I love it. Never thought of carrying a buffer around. Here is a plan carry enough pre-sharpened heads. then again maybe I don't require near as many as you do to make a kill. :^) To answer your question though there is always a small diamond steel that screws in to its own protective cover,in my pack or quiver.Never needed it in the field. A small plastic broadhead case (you should carry them in inventory with your Shrew bows) holds 6 & takes up very little room. Never needed them in the field. Insurance,I am a cautious man. You should have 6 arrows in your quiver. You should also sharpen your knife and heads before leaving home,but then you already know that. No stainless for me and nothing new fangled. I am old school like all of your pictures in leather,skins,and hairy hides represent.

Ron try to be a fair and impartial judge. Read every post again. You can quickly dismiss the ones that indicate a lack of experience & trolls. Then make a fair and impartial decision. Take note of David A.'s note on the serrated head. Yes it done the job. Just like I said though, I have never see one that wasn't packed with fat and hair. You do have to examine them, preferably before admiring and photographing your trophy. I have had a number of dealings with David. He has helped me a lot. Now he recognizes what I have been saying about vents and serrations.

I don't recall seeing any serrations on your knives or the ones you market. I could be wrong though. I make my own knives so don't pay a lot of attention to yours. Need a good knife? It won't have any vents or serrations though.

I try to address each and every point you make. I hope I didn't forget any. You still avoid all my points and bring up others,just like an attorney. I strongly suspect I am getting real close to receiving the: The End of Trail silhouette again. Just like last time.

I hope your shoulder is rehabbing good and you can get out and hunt. Take care. >>>>-----> ken

I use Hill 2 blades with Howard’s Verion of serrates by flat filing

But I’ll say this in serrates for knives or broad heads,,a serrate makes a jagged cut which is wider then a clean cut and will bleed more and not heal or seal properly

Like Ron was saying about cutting himself with serrated knife it bleed and had to be stitched It’s the same concept as a bayonet,,,they should be wide and angle shaped as to make a worse wound,,in bleeding,healing and repairing If a serrated broad head filled with animal fat and or hair,,then it’s making a wide cut and removing the material that could help in sealing a wound And I think it’s making its cut by just going one direction not sawing

Like I said I don’t use serrated broad heads but I’d try them and I have faith in Ron’s opinion

Knowledge = facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education.

As stated,I knew it was coming. End of Trail Ron will not address any of my points or acknowledge any facts presented. It is disappointing he quits. Soooo good folks if you will look at the thread lighter weight bows and Ron's post. He recommends Zwickey Eskimo and Ace Standard broadheads. Both very good heads---neither of which are serrated or vented. I have recommended them before. Ron that seems to say you are reading and learning. It is disappointing that someone I have always looked up to won't admit it. Ron you are still one of the best writers,photographers,Hawk throwing,archers I know of. Get well soon and carry on.>>>----> Ken

Mountain man I address every point. First flat filing is not a serrated/scalloped edge. Fred Bear even recommended it. That is another subject. It makes no difference the width of the cut,it goes through hair. One is dragging hair into the cut instead of cutting it off cleanly. Blood vessels are surprising elastic. You don't want to drag or push them but cut them clean. It produces less trauma to send the clotting signals. When I was issued a bayonet and trained to use it daily,it was not serrated. Maybe that has changed. A solider would have been in severe trouble if his bayonet hung up in clothing or one of the many web straps. He could not quickly withdraw it, use it again, or go to the next enemy. His M1 would also be out of service making him very vulnerable. Do you think a razor edge would not have cut and bled when Ron had the accident. A jagged cut don't heal as well as a keen cut and hurts more. More trauma/pain causes more panic and longer blood trails. We have been there-- surgeons scalpels. If an animal does get away I want it to heal. See the thread Lighter weight bows and Ron's broadhead recommendation. >>>----> Ken

Without wishing to pour oil on troubled waters, until someone conducts a von Mises yield distortion analysis, we'll never have a definitive answer to the serrated / non serrated question ... until someone does conduct the appropriate test .. just shoot what gives you results you're happy with.

Phil: of course we don't know what a Mises yield distortion analysis is.

Sorry Oldnewby .. Old habit I'm afraid ... I did some work into fracture mechanics when I was a young post grad researcher

Phil I have no idea what that test is. I have shot and examined numerous broadheads after kills by myself and others. I have shot both through hides. It is very easy to see hair and the outside layer of fat pulled through hides and into wounds on animals. It is easy to see cleanly cut hair. It is easy to see vents and serrations packed with fat and hair.It is easy to see and feel a keen smooth broadhead with a smooth coat of grease on it poking through. You just have to be curious look for it. Should arrow shafts be rough or slick? It is also better if they are slightly smaller than the broadhead ferrule. Less friction more penetration. I have analyzed this from the physics,medical,and practical standpoint. As said both work. With low poundage bows I like all the odds in my favor. I think it worthwhile to wax arrow shafts.If nothing else they slip across the rest smoother and quieter. I am not apt to change many minds at least they won't admit it. See Ron's recommendation of broadheads on the lighter weight bows thread. HUMMMMMmmmm I hunted most of my life in 5 deer counties. Pretty fair proving ground.I have also made a number of out of state hunts. Not writing,photographing,or making videos doesn't mean a lack of experience. I appreciate your technical input on various things and welcome any documenting,testing,or questions. Never used a computer until well into my middle 70's.My hand writing is barely legible. Maybe I am trying too hard to make up for lost time.I do feel there are things worth passing on. Regards, >>>----> Ken

I usually don't chew my cabbage twice but sometimes you can tell someone over and over and it doesn't register with them.

Ken, THIS is the head I've been using for the last few years, ACE like I recommended in the light bow thread. I serrate them myself, in fact I thought I sent you one. I have also serrated and used Black Diamond heads.

As for shooting through dead pig hides I don't see what that proves. I shoot through live deer and when my serrated head comes out the other side is wet with blood but no fat or hair. Either your using the wrong serrated head or your dead hides don't give a fair test....try some live hogs, or deer

This is a picture of me filing serrations for Tim Cosgrove of Kustom King on one of his broadheads in my Shrew Haven deer camp. I buy my files at Ace Hardware, they're a small round file, I can't tell you the size off hand.

No Holy Grails here, this thread is about "penetration, serrated vs non serrated". I said nothing against a sharp straight edge I've killed a lot of critters with them. I also use serrated heads, one's I mostly serrate myself and I've killed a lot of critters with them also.

When someone who hasent really used them much thinks a "proper" serated head doesn't cut as well as a straight edge I have to tell them of my years of experience using them with very good rersults.

If a person doesn't like the idea of something they can usually come up with a reason why, but many times those reasons may be based on speculation and not actual fact.

Talk about not understanding and having to repeat.I have related my experience & kills to you many times. I have related the test to you many times. I just haven't written and photographed for the whole world to see. I asked you to reread all the threads and judge fairly. Others have seen the clogging with fat and hair. If you can't see it that is too bad. The next time you make a kill how about looking at the head. Also pointed out it would be better to sharpen your heads before leaving home. It just don't photograph as well as a truck tailgate, or sitting around the campfire.I never challenged your experience as you have mine. The medical profession documents clean cuts and clotting. I have proved the physics. I read every thing you write. Apparently you don't read other than your own writing. I predicted exactly when the End of Trail was coming. We have been there before. When you have no answers for a long standing belief you make it personal. Note the recommendations on the light bow thread. O.K. I will play. You know better but just won't admit it. When I am wrong I admit it. I have had my mine changed several times right here on the LW. Especially on tabs,three under,string making,and back tension. There are some very good folks on here that share and teach.Some champions. I have wished nothing but the best for you both hunting and health wise. You keep throwing up speculation and not based on facts. Your words.Throwing out the word experience. I seldom say anything I can't prove. You are so right, experience is a great teacher. I have it. Being famous don't necessarily make a person right or mean they have more experience.Yes you did send me a head you had mutilated. Less than a 1/16 of steel left between the filed scallops and the vent. The one pictured here you can see the flattened points lower than the cutting edge that was there. More than 3/4 of the cutting edge gone at the widest point on the head where it is needed most.Sure it will kill-painfully too. Take care.I will be around if you need anything or bring this up again >>>-----> Ken

Ken, you wanted me to send you a head that I use so you could test it...you never tested it...you just looked at it and "speculated" how it would perform.

You tell us the heads that you have tested on pig skin clog with hair and fat...but you don't tell us the make of the head.

Please take pictures and post them it would substantiate your claims better. It's not that hard nowdays with smart phones. If an old coot like me can learn to do it so can you.

When I mention speculation not fact I'm talking about people in general and not necessarily just about broadheads.

My last post was not directed to others on this thread, I'm through debating/arguing with you, you're set in your belief that serated heads are worthless and there's no changing your mind.

Your criticized my serrated Ace head saying the "points were lower than the cutting edge. It may LOOK that way to you but since I never ground them down it must be an optical illusion.

Lastly, please use paragraphs when you post...it makes me crosseyed trying to read that much writing without separation in the lines.

"My last post was not directed to others on this thread,"

I meant to say my last post WAS directed to others on this thread

Ron, I like your broadhead. It is not serrated per se, it is semi-serrated: the piercing/cut is done with the straight blade and the serrated part is just enough to damage the tissue, preventing the wound to "seal".

I have to disagree with (a rough cut will bleed more than a clean one) Nick yourself shaving & watch it bleed compared to a scratch. I installed carpet for 20+ years basically ya got a razor knife in your hand all day. clean razor cuts bleed & bleed & bleed. rips & tears do not bleed nearly as much. however one thing is true rips & tears take longer to heal

"Nobody doubts that these serrated heads 'work'...I doubt you will find real world penetration differences but I personally can't find a reason to un-smooth any part of a broadhead"

Can you see how easy the believes can start a nonsense debate now? It is your find vs other's find and you have one option to be right: saying the other's find is not what he found.

"Nobody doubts that these serrated heads 'work'...I doubt you will find real world penetration differences but I personally can't find a reason to un-smooth any part of a broadhead"

Can you see how easy the beliefs can start a nonsense debate now? It is your find vs other's find and you have one option to be right: saying the other's find is not what he found.

Read again and you will understand that you are arguing Other's opinion on a thing you already know is hard to be determined without special tests. I just appreciated the broadhead design and you jumped on "seal" word. If you hit the vitals, it is down in 40 yards - shape doesn't count. Serrated might help or not when the animal takes hours to be found.

Some years ago I was sitting on the edge of a bean field on a stool in a hollowed out spot in the high grass. A nice buck came out of the timber and started across the bean field. I waited hoping he would come close enough for a shot.

When he did pass he was about 30yds out, farther than I usually like to shoot. I took the shot and it hit him a little high a little far back for a lung hit. The arrow from my 60# Shrew bow sent the serrated two blade Raptor head through him for a complete pass through.

The buck whirled, took a couple bounds and stopped to see what had stung him. I nocked another arrow ready to shoot again but decided as long as he was just standing there I'd wait and see what he would do.

Suddenly he dropped dead. The broadhead had evidently cut some large blood vessels. What had been na marginal hit ended up being a lethal hit.

Now the same thing might have happened with a sharp straight edge but it was a serrated head.

The 8 point is mounted in my shop today, I just told the story to a friend this morning. There was more to it...when I was cutting the grass for my blind I hit my bow string...didn't have a spare string but had another bow in my truck. Walked back, got the bow, came back and shot the buck.

That was a patient deer, Ron!

Another advocate of serrations on broadheads was the late Larry Bamford, trophy hunting editor of Bowhunting magazine. He used a mill bast file to add about 1/2" of small serrations to the back edge of Bear razorheads. He did one or two heads for me. He turned the file so the teeth were perpendicular to the broadhead edge, and with one hard stroke cut in the serrations to an already shaving-sharp head.

I have no doubt the serrated heads will work well but i just sharpen a regular head so it shaves the hair on my arm and that works too. I have never been able to get a stone head to shave my arm

Ron you are putting words in my mouth again. I never said the heads were worthless,indeed I said they work. I just said there are better heads. Why are you so defensive.

Fact: You did send me the head but then you stated you would not believe any test I performed. You autographed it. I told you I would frame it and not destroy the autograph since you would not believe the test any way. I don't believe this has to do with your memory either. If so go back and read the threads they are still there.

You dismiss my experience, you dismiss my tests. They were not old hides but just pulled off the hogs. A buddy and I took turns shooting both heads through them. We kill lots of hogs. Fat,shields,hair and all. Incidentally deer hides offer the same results. You say I didn't name the head. Wrong again Ron but just for you Magnus Buzz Cut. Many gimmicky heads have come on the market most are long gone. You were filing your own,were they kind of hard to get? You dismiss the blood clotting research.You dismiss why swords and bayonets are not serrated. You dismiss why surgeons use keen scalpels for tissue and saws for bone.You dismiss why your knives are not serrated. You dismiss all facts then get theatrical with your End of Trail. Surprised you came back You didn't on the other site. I told you I would be here if you mentioned it again.

I have no quarrel with others that use serrated heads they work. Originally I was complementing you on all of your endeavors but said we had just one small difference of opinion, there were better broadheads out there. Eclipse,Zwickey,Ace,and Woodsman to name a few. So you are wrong again Ron.

With all your writing,photography,promotion and sales you have a following. In fact I have always been one of them. How many times have I told you I try to read every thing your write? No one is so famous or important to just dismiss someone else experience and tests. No debate, just dismiss. That is my quarrel. I have never been intimidated by fame or fortune. Facts are facts.

Hope the paragraphs are better for you. I researched how to do it just for you. You are superior in writing and computers. It is not my thing. Archery is. What is next Grammar or spelling,anything but broadheads EH? Take care,>>>----> Ken

"I took the shot and it hit him a little high a little far back for a lung hit. ...... Suddenly he dropped dead. The broadhead had evidently cut some large blood vessels. What had been a marginal hit ended up being a lethal hit."

If you clip the descending aorta, that's worth 2 femoral arteries and then some. If you clip the ascending vena cava, that prevents blood from returning from the entire lower/rear half of the body, which causes blood pressure to bottom out within a few beats.

And they lie right next to each other, so if you get one, you have a good chance at both.

A bit farther forward is the hepatic portal vein, which drains the liver and sends that blood back up to the heart.

Point being, there's a large number of large-diameter blood vessels embedded in the connective tissue that holds the liver up next to the spine; you put a reasonably sharp arrow though there and you'll have a short tracking job, though the blood trail might not be terrific - at least not right away....

So while that shot ended well, I would humbly suggest that the arrowhead itself (insofar as serrated vs straight is concerned) had as close to nothing to do with the outcome as could ever be demonstrated.

JMHO

OK Matt so we have another non believer, that'll make Ken happy. By the way, I know where all the big arteries are, I've seen the inside of enough deer to know. I did say a sharp straight edge may have had the same results. I've killed enough deer with both a straight edge and a serrated edge to make me believe a serrated head gives you an "edge" (pardon the pun) JMHO

Ken, I didn't say your pig hides were "old", I said they were "dead"

I'm not dismissing your test, but I need proof... PICTURES! would be nice . Reason being, you claim the heads were plugged with fat and hair whereas all the many serrated heads I've put through live deer were not.

I'm not going to respond to all of your other claims, I sense you are getting a little testie so I'll try not to agitate you further.

I knew Larry Bamford, he was a hunting companion of my long time friend Phil Grable. The two of them killed more game than you could count and they also liked serrated heads.

Bottom line, use what you like and have confidence in. And unless you LIKE to argue, don't criticize anothers choice.

Thank you for using paragraphs, it makes for eaiser reading on these old eyes.

"Bad hits are bad hits, sharp, smooth cuts bleed faster and bleed more, more penetration is better than less. Thems' the facts I consider."

You consider your facts. Ron has his facts. I am interested in this because IMO if the serrated blade was better for cutting, the Japanese swords would have been serrated. And they are not. From my understanding this debate is not about cutting type but about something else: a serrated blade propelled by a powerful bow will displace more meat on its passage through the target than a slick broadhead from a lightweight bow. Is this true? I think it is but I have no proof. It is better a serrated broadhead shot from a heavy weight bow than a slick broadhead shot from a lightweight bow? I have no proof. Arguing without proof is just nonsense for me.

My mistake on the "old" sorry. The hides were just taken off the hogs. We were still in the field. I have propped up an old boar that I wasn't going to eat and shot it several times. At least twice with each head,serrated and non, then opened it up. The vents and serrations clog. Shoot one into thick grass and look at the grass and dirt in the vents and serrations if you don't shake it off first. Thanks for getting back to conversing rather than dismissing me like some kid. Thanks for your concern of my feelings/agitation. I also said use what you like. That I had no quarrel with others using them. There are also some very knowledgeable folks on the thread that have experienced the same results. In a debate/conversation both sides should address each point and answer questions. To any one interested. I also tested the handguns bouncing off of boars skull and shield, to prove to myself. It is nonsense. Bullet passed through the skull top to bottom and buried up in the ground. The shoulder shot did not get an exit wound. Bullet opened up but certainly didn't stop on the shield.All is good.>>---> Ken

Ken, you seem to revel in arguing with Ron and others who have stated their real world experiences all the while touting your "test" experience as gospel.

I have no dog in this fight other than am thinking about trying some Buzzcuts out of my light poundage bows. After 56 bowhunting seasons I'm willing to try new things so have read/followed this thread with interest.

Any broadhead sharpened with a file has micro serrations. It takes a lot of honing to remove them. I've produced hair shaving broadheads from both file and stone alone or in combination. Lately the easiest combination for me to produce is done with a couple files and a leather strop or ceramic stick both with jewelry rouge.

Shot my first two deer with a raptor broadhead 45 pound shrew both were pass through. No problem two shots serrated head did the job

Shot my first two deer with a raptor broadhead 45 pound shrew both were pass through. No problem two shots serrated head did the job

Ron are the serrations you do filed in one direction on one side, then in the other direction on the other acting like a single bevel?

I'd like to know more of how you do them if you have time. I love Ace Standard broadheads, one of the easiest sharpening heads I know of.

Kelly I don't revel in arguing with anyone. I try to help others here in any way I can. You apparently didn't read all my posts as I said I have no quarrel with what any one uses. My quarrel with Ron started very innocently. It seemed like since he was well known,written,and photographed,others opinions were not valid and should just be dismissed. I resented it. It started on another site and ended the same way. I was actually complimenting him and said we were so much a like but we had one little difference of opinion. On stating my opinion of broadheads, I was dismissed. I am near Ron's age have hunted all of my life mostly in 5 deer counties plus travels. I long ago lost count of the deer and feral hogs I have killed with broadheads along with a couple of bears. I am 77 years old and certainly not inexperienced. I am not intimadated by fame either.

The test you say I am touting as gospel were pretty valid. Shall I repeat all of them? The medical research definitely so. When one side of a debate refuses to answer questions but continues to throw something else out there, while ignoring the facts,well it is not right.

I also stated several times there is a big difference in a file sharpened head and a serrated/scalloped head. No comparison. I welcome any questions. I certainly do not appreciate more finger pointing when it is apparent you were not aware of all the facts. I think it is all good with Ron now. Like I said though If he mentions it again I will be around to give my side. Have a good evening. >>>----< Ken

Ken I've read this entire thread.

You sir are doing a lot of "finger pointing", too!

Am no spring chicken either and have been bowhunting for 56 years. Surely I've not killed as many deer as you since here in Wisconsin we are allowed only one per year and we have no hogs. That said, I'm the last to say that others methods are wrong and continue to insist upon that mantra no matter what.

Tests done on dead animal skins or plywood or cememnt blocks have totally nothing in common with living, breathing animals. Rather favor "real world" experience over man made hyposthisis.

Last but not least there are many ways "to skin the cat" so to speak. Seems like "your way or the highway" has become very personal and is spilling over to all those who are contrary to your tests.

Here's my real world experience that I can attribute to this discussion. Have used several types of vented two and mostly 3 blades heads the vast majority of years and the vents don't get clogged with hair/fat like you proclaim from your tests!

Kelly respectfully. You are missing that I said use what you like. I have no quarrel with those that do. No finger pointing. Again it began a long time ago. Are you dismissing the fresh hog skins,the propped up hog then dissected? The fact that we just killed those hogs with guess what? No mention of plywood. Yes many ways to get things done. You dismiss that I said they work? I don't believe I have seen too many vented 3 blades but I will take your word for it. If you have made many shots through critters with vented and or scalloped heads and haven't seen them plugged with hair and fat as many others have, some right here on this thread. I suggest you have some sort of magic or just haven't looked at the heads right away. You sir have piled on me. Why? Did I say something to you? What 2 bladed vented scalloped head did you use? What were the result? Explain any test you may have done.Have a good evening.>>--->Ken

Respectfully Ken, you need to read also and quit piling on everyone who has different real world experiences with live, breathing animals.

7 posts above your last one I stated of no experience with scalloped/serrated broadheads.

Regarding vented 3 blade broadheads I agree there are few but the Snuffer and Wensel Woodsman are what I have had experience with, mostly the Snuffer. Plus I've been a good friend for almost 50 years to the now deceased inventor of the Snuffer and have seen 100's and 100's of freshly killed animals, including huge hogs like the 350# plus one Roger shot while we were hunting in LA a few years back. Sure there might be a few hairs on the head but no more than any other head. They are not definitely plugged.

See the issue here is your insisting to be heard/beleived and your denying/disbeleiving what others have to say that are in direct contradiction to your tests. You immediately jumped on me about my vented 3 blade head experience becuase you automatically "dismissed" it.

Fresh dead skins are still vastly different to living, breathing animals. After dieing/skining they have lots all their natural fluids. All of my tests have been done on living animals as have Ron's and many others. I'm/we are not hunting dead skins! A field point will penetrate living tissue farther than dead tissue!

Attached is a picture of a decent Fall bear I shot back in the early 1980's.(sorry for the poor quality but we didn't have digital cameras back in those days and in order to put it on here it is a copy/scan of a 3"x5" photo). What I can tell you is that this Snuffer broadhead had some hair on it but nothing else 'cept for blood.

Geez, dead is dead! Relax and quit forcing your IDEALS on others

The serrations on the Raptor are left wing biased. I would assume that best way to sharpen them would be on the non-beveled side like the steak knives we have. Why wouldn't that work, the serrated part would be doing cutting work. i wonder if 2 bear doesn't have something else going on to have results that are so varied from guys that have good experiences with vented and serrated heads.

O.K. done with the respect. How about examples? How about answers? You stated no experience with scalloped heads the main topic???? Exactly what Ron sent me. How did you get to be the expert? You said no dog in this fight. Where did I pile on? It was between Ron and I. What did I say to you? Did you figure Ron needed your help? How did the living hogs get dead? Then they had more broadheads run through them. Long ago lost count of the deer and feral hogs + two bears. Did you miss that? I didn't dismiss your heads. I said I couldn't recall too many vented 3 blades. Dean maybe you should go back and count good and bad experiences with both kinds of heads. O.K. not piling on he called out my name. Maybe we should compare tests and experiences. Did you think Kelly needed help? Yes I have something going on: as clean a kill as possible. Not ripping and tearing wounds that don't heal as well. How many serrated heads on the market compared to keen slick edges? More important how many are no longer on the market? ONE MORE TIME I said the heads work. I said use what you want. What part of that do you not understand? My original statement was A keen sharp head promotes more bleeding. The same broad head with out vents is inherently stronger. Will they work again YES YES YES are they stronger no. Are they as efficient no. Maybe you should review Rick Barbee's penetration tests with vented heads. Pile on recruit help. I can handle it. I am armed with the facts.>>>----> Ken

I found this information on the internet. Thet're talking knife blades here but it's still an interesting view.

"Some of the cutting power of the serrated edge is due to its format alone; thus, even a dull serrated edge knife will often perform competently at slicing jobs. The serrated edge gets its slicing ability from a number of factors. The high points on the serrations will touch the material first, and this gives those points higher pressure per area than if the same pressure was applied to a plain blade; this allows the serration to puncture more easily. In addition, serrations are normally chisel-ground into the blade, which means they are thinner (and thus cut better) than the comparable plain blade."

"The plain edge will work better for applications like shaving, skinning an apple, skinning a deer. All those applications involve either mostly push cuts, or the need for extreme control."

"Since actual tests confirm the truth of the conventional view, what more is there to be said? The problem is that the tests are often not as thorough as they need to be. That is, when testing plain vs. serrated performance, most tests are comparing a plain polished edge to a serrated edge. Given that, it is no surprise that the serrated blade easily outperforms the plain blade when cutting (for example) rope."

Kelly, to answer your question, Yes, I file my serrations in a single bevel. I carry an old Shrade Hone Steel and draw it across the full length of the blade right over the serrations.

Great input everyone, and thank you. The OP asked if serrations alter penetration, any comments on penetration?

I have no idea what ole 2 was getting on about, but I do not teach people how to do what I do with my Tom Mussato variation, I teach shaving sharp with a file a diamond hone and a leather strop. As far penetration, I would not use a pre-serrated head that was spoon shaped over something like a Zwicky Eskimo. Where the file serrated heads come into play wi with 3 to 1 heads. Cutting in part is a pounds per square inch of contact thing to a degree angle. With my single bevel Hills, Hunters Heads and Grizzlies, I find that get more blood on the ground quicker and expect pass throughs, I have more confidence that artery tissue has less a chance of rolling over a possibly bone dulled or hair dulled edge if the edge has a bit of grab in it. . With light bows a wide round head that are deeply serrated, I could see how momentum can be slowed, but have no experience with them, because I have not used them. The difference with Ron's version is the cutting surface and the back end of the Ace blade angle is near three to one. On some heads like Bears and Pearson Deadheads, that tail end of the blade is much less than 3 to 1. Getting some grab or tissue reaction from a serration may actually improve penetration and cutting action. Perhaps 2 gets the results he has because of the metal hardness or the edge is not holding up on entry which can cause much more pressure on an animal on impact. Some head can push a pretty deep dent in a deer before the cutting action begins. i know lots of guys that swear by their file sharpened Wensel heads, have never heard of or witnessed one of them plugging with hair. It leads me to wonder if there is something else making such a difference for 2.

Hey Bill that is what the internet is for Eh? Funny though admittedly that is where his information came from. Check Ron's post just above. "I read it on the internet" This is not the only thread going. I touched on every point and question. They have no answer for the facts thus none given. You are new to the thread. Welcome. They need help. I am over looking you not knowing that I offered personal,tests,kills,and experience. No internet information. Check out the thread recommend a broadhead. It has all been said numerous times. Plus it began on another website.We are good no worries. I asked Ron to check with his personal knife maker. Not the internet. He just had a wiz bang,high dollar, big chopper, made by a respected member of the knife guild. It don't have serrations. Either he won't ask or he won tell. Have a good evening Bill glad I could entertain you. >>>----> ken

"Pontificate"...my word for the day. Thanks Bill... 8>)

Ken, you're starting to repeat yourself.... it makes you sound desperate...8>(

This is the only way I know how to answer all of your statements/questions directed to me above. I'm going to list/copy what 2 bears said, then answer.

"O.K. done with the respect." If you are first now going to be disrespectful everyone lookout.

"How about examples?" Examples of what? Already gave you two which you immediately dismissed by calling it "magic"

"How about answers?" Answers to what?

"You stated no experience with scalloped heads the main topic????" Yes, that is correct in I have no experience with serrated heads and I offered no opinion one way or the other, except on file sharpened serrations. No the topic here is serrated vs non serrated. You interjected the scalloped definition.

"How did you get to be the expert?" Who said I was an expert? Are you an expert? If so, how did you become it?

"You said no dog in this fight. Where did I pile on?" Immediately after I offered my experiences with vented heads. I know that is not the topic but you brought up that issue.

"It was between Ron and I. What did I say to you?" Refer the my answer directly above. and here is your direct quote. "If you have made many shots through critters with vented and or scalloped heads and haven't seen them plugged with hair and fat as many others have, some right here on this thread. I suggest you have some sort of magic or just haven't looked at the heads right away." The use of the word IF means you automatically are skeptical of me and my experiences. And from rereading this thread there seems to be more experiences contrary to your plugging statement than are in agreement.

"Did you figure Ron needed your help?" Absolutely not and neither does anyone else.

"How did the living hogs get dead?" I don't know, you tell me?

"Then they had more broadheads run through them. Long ago lost count of the deer and feral hogs + two bears. Did you miss that?" Nope read that clearly. Did you miss this from me. Am no spring chicken either and have been bowhunting for 56 years. Surely I've not killed as many deer as you since here in Wisconsin we are allowed only one per year and we have no hogs(sure wish I lived where they were). But then again I've shot 6 bear and several elk, mule deer, antelope, plus many, many whitetails. That said, I'm the last to say that others methods are wrong and continue to insist upon that mantra no matter what like you are.

"I didn't dismiss your heads. I said I couldn't recall too many vented 3 blades." No you didn't dismiss my choice of broadheads but you sure did my experiences.

"Dean maybe you should go back and count good and bad experiences with both kinds of heads. O.K. not piling on he called out my name. Maybe we should compare tests and experiences. Did you think Kelly needed help?" I'll let Dean answer here if he wants.

"Yes I have something going on: as clean a kill as possible." So do I and Ron and everyone else should strive for that. I've only been watching/reading this thread to get actual results on living animals from those who have used serrated broadheads. Only started calling you out because of your continual insistence that Ron and others actual results from serrated broadheads on living tissue should automatically be dismissed because of your "test" on non living tissue. Dead tissue is stiff, has rigor and lost all its moisture. Living tissue is soft and very pliable, plus contains a lot of moisture. Even living bone is easier to penetrate than dead because of the moisture contained within.

"Not ripping and tearing wounds that don't heal as well. How many serrated heads on the market compared to keen slick edges? More important how many are no longer on the market?" What does this have to do with effectiveness? I dare say that serrated heads are more expensive to produce than non serrated which has a lot to do with their availability.

"ONE MORE TIME I said the heads work. I said use what you want. What part of that do you not understand?" Understood that very clearly.

"My original statement was A keen sharp head promotes more bleeding." Says who?

"The same broad head with out vents is inherently stronger. Will they work again YES YES YES are they stronger no." Stronger in what way? The cutting edge of the vented broadheads I mentioned are thicker than those of the many non vented heads and strength is relative to any broadheads construction and quality thereof. I've have seen many more damaged non vented broadheads than with Snuffers. Most non vented broadheads are made from multiple pieces sandwiched together and held with spot welds. There are very few solid construction broadheads made because of their cost of production. Are they stronger? One would think so, but I have no experience with them so will not insist on them being better.

"Are they as efficient no." If efficiency is measure by quick kills with fast blood loss and short, heavy blood trails I'll take a Snuffer over any other head, bar none!

"Maybe you should review Rick Barbee's penetration tests with vented heads. Pile on recruit help. I can handle it. I am armed with the facts.>>>----> Ken"

The thing I take issue the most with your statements here, Ken is the issue here is your insisting to be heard/believed and your denying/disbelieving/dismissing what others have to say based upon their experiences on living tissue because they are in direct contradiction to your tests done on dead tissue.

Furthermore, as stated before fresh dead skins are still vastly different to living, breathing animals. After dying/skinning they have lost all their natural fluids. All of my tests have been done on living animals, as have Ron's and many others. I'm/we are not hunting dead skins! A field point will penetrate living tissue farther than dead tissue!

Apparently it takes some folks many many repetitions to grasp something. Thanks for the cartoon. The Trails End repetition was getting old. The cartoon is more what I expect when UNARMED folks try to play mind games or engage in a battle of whits. Very juvenile and you even had help with that. Repeating because you recruit help three of you, to explain to now. No worries. Not enough ammo between the three of you.You go guys.>>>----> Ken

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

A lethal hit is not a marginal hit?

I just sharpened up some broad heads with a reversed quarter inch round file. Should be good enough to do the job.

People on here talk about a razors edge and a serrated edge. I've been a Barber teacher for a long time and I know a little about Razor edges. A razors edge is serrated even tough you would need a microscope to see the serrations. It's the same with a sharp broadhead. The serrations are needed to saw off the beard. When you resharpen a Razor after it gets dull you have to pull it through a piece of soft pine to take the serrations off or you will over sharpen your edge and it will drag on the face. We test a razors edge after honing by pulling it very softly across your thumbnail. if the edge is honed properly you will get a steady grip on your nail. If the edge is over honed it will grab your nail unevenly. If your edge is dull the edge will slide over your nail with no grip.

You can overhone a edge but you cannot over strop a edge. The strop cleans and keeps your edge sharp. I use the leather side of the strop between shaves and the canvas side after a few shaves following up with the leather side. Horse hide strops are the best and come from a horses rump, the are called a Russian shell strop.

It's my opinion that you need serrations on a broadhead to cut through a animals hide even if you can't see the serrations with the naked eye.

Thanks for that info Will. I was going to mention that all cutting edges are serrated to some degree but I thought it would just open another subject for disagreement.

My Uncle was a Barber for many years, one of those old time barbers that worked in a Multi chair shop. He was also a WW-1 Vet so you'll know how long ago that was. I have his old razor strop that I use to finish the edge on my knives and broadheads.

I have my grandfathers razor strop Ron,,the one my father,6 brothers 1 sister and myself all got attitude adjustments with as children My father gifted to me,he said,,”You got more use out of this then anyone else so you should have it”

That's funny Scott. My dad shaved with a straight razor and kept his leather strop on the back of the bathroom door. Besides keeping his razor sharp it also from time to time reminded me not to do what I was told not to do

Ah the good ole days of standing to eat dinner

Pops used to make us go get the strap in his closet off the spinning tie rack next to his shoe horn and bring it to him

I certainly agree Barbers know keen edges. "pull it through a piece of pine to take the serrations off" "pull softly across the thumbnail it will get a steady grip" "You can over hone but you cannot over strop" Thank you so much Will Tell.

Now if someone would do me one more favor PLEASE. Post a picture of a ready to work Straight Razor's edge and one of Ron's filed scalloped/serrated broadheads. I can email it to you,autographed by Ron himself, if that will help. I am not certain if he is unwilling or incapable of telling the difference in a microscopic serrated razor edge and the filed serrated/scalloped edge of his favorite broadhead. It might help him if you post a picture of each and explain the difference.

Ron will you let Will Tell or your uncle shave you with one of your broadheads? Perhaps you do shave with those heads. Is that how you got the bad cut that needed stitches? Barbers don't use jagged edges.

I wasn't coming close to running low but thanks so much for increasing my ammo stock. Still here. >>>----> Ken

Kelly we sure got off on the wrong foot. No reason for it. I don't think I can address every item not even sure I understand a few. I will try to summarize if I may. This thread was quite long,Ron and I had gone back forth several times on this thread. You came in late. There is another thread I believe it was called choose a broadhead. The same thing there. Please read it. Bowmania has a lot of hunting experience as well as being an established archery coach. Way before that Ron started ragging on me on another site. He is ticked off because I don't think his broadhead is the best out there. Other than that we are a lot alike. I read every thing he writes. I love many of his photographs and tell him so.He keeps getting in little personal digs, every thread. "Knowledge gained by experience beats hearsay and speculation." As if I didn't have any experience. That is the phrase he uses on me every thread his personal dig. Then he posts "I read it on the internet". Go figure. We are not far from the same age I have hunted all my life I am just not an author.I was a little ticked. Then it seemed like you were ganging up on me. The respect comment was out of line. I apologize. Surgical. It is well documented in the medical profession. A clean, keen, cut promotes bleeding. A ragged cut sends the clotting signal and don't heal as well. It leaves a scar. Don't take my word for it though, several here say it. On the broadhead thread one explains it very well, using all the medical terms. If you still have doubts research it yourself. Serrated. I didn't coin the term scalloped,but it is a better description. New to the thread folks keep mixing up the term serrated & refer to a flat filed edge as serrated. Please note- Will Tell- the barber's term serrated. There is a big difference in a serrated edge that can't be see with out a microscope and the broad head marketed as a serrated head. Buzzcut. The broadheads Ron sent to me are serrated with a round chainsaw file,scalloped is a better term. See his picture.(a milder example than he sent me) They work and I have said they killed lots of game but they are just not the best. He chided me. Said it is not nice to diss a man's broadhead. Words to that affect. Way back when, This first started I ask Ron to test the heads or examine them immediately after a kill. "No need to." I said send me one and I will test it. He said I wouldn't believe any test you done. I said O.K. autograph them for me and I wont abuse them. To my surprise, he did. I thanked him and said I would build a frame with his picture decked out in the buffalo robe and display the broadheads in it. That appealed to him. He regressed from that to you never tested them or they were much better than you thought and you won't say. Nonsense Hog hides. We had a rice field over run with hogs. We killed plenty (that is where we got the hides) I agree there are differences in hides and live animals but you can only kill and process so many animals. We killed them with both type heads and carefully examined the wounds channels.I might add the serrated heads were less likely to make it out the other side. To be fair though some of the Eclipse and Zwickeys didn't either but most did. There was always the wound channel to compare. One old boar I folded his front legs propped him up and shot him a few extra times. To compare penetration in different spots and angles. The hides just pealed were draped over a fence. I thought why not. More experiments. I examined the heads. Vents contained fat and hair always. Serrations/scallops pulled hair into the wound channels.With slick heads there would always be a place where the hair was cut off extremely short. I might add I was a Taxidermist for about 20 years. I have handled a few hides and repaired the holes. I can tell the difference. Knives, Ron is a big knife guy. Have you seen his collection? I believe it was Jinkster that had a big one made for clearing brush. Ron wanted one made by the same guy with a few modifications. I followed the build it is documented, pretty sure I can find it again. I make knives so I was extremely interested.It is not serrated. The maker is a member of the guild. They go through very rigid testing. Slicing a hanging rope,bamboo stalks,water bottles all with a single slash. It is interesting check it out when you have time. I asked Ron to check with his knife maker on cutting edges. Ha. When he is pinned he gets angry and out comes the End of Trail or another cartoon. I have no quarrel with you are anyone else. I have lots of friends on the wall and would rather include you. So that is the story. I suppose anyone could still dismiss it all. All but my personal experience is pretty well documented. If I knew how to convert photos to digital,put them in the computer, and send them I would. Folks that come to the house for bow work,leather work, or knives see them. I do have knives and leather work pictures but can only send them by email.A number of folks on the wall have seen them. I won't mention any names at the risk of thoughts of recruiting. I will say there is another member that is ragged on maybe as bad as I am. His only problem he don't like short bows. Guess who markets them along with knives with his name on them. Please read with care.If I made any mistakes or you have any questions.Regards>>>--->Ken

your welcome 2 Bears, and if you need a close shave I'll come out of retirement to give you one.

"Ron will you let Will Tell or your uncle shave you with one of your broadheads?"

I think this explains why you don't understand what we've been telling you because you don't read everything we write... I wrote that my uncle was a "WORLD WAR ONE VETERAN" He was born in the late 1800's and lived into his 90's

Also you're ignoring part of will's post

"It's the same with a sharp broadhead. The serrations are needed to saw off the beard. When you resharpen a "RAZOR" after it gets dull you have to pull it through a piece of soft pine to take the serrations off or you will over sharpen your edge and it will drag on the face."

No I got that perfectly Ron. You had numerous post with mistakes then you corrected them. Will Tell is retired too. I meant would you have let them. Excuse me I made a mistake. When you have no answers find something else to jump on. Saw off the beard---pick and choose-- you don't grasp pull it through a piece of pine to remove the serrations. MICROSCOPIC serrations or stroping. Not scallops with a chainsaw file. O.K. I will fix it. Will you take your chainsaw file, scallop a straight razor and shave yourself with it? Is that BETTER? Perhaps scallop a few razor blades. Ask the maker of your last knife. Watch the cutting competitions at the knife makers guild. Show your knife collection. You are big on showing a scalloped broadhead over and over and over. How about "harder steel are you in to stainless now." Most know that general stainless won't harden as hard as carbon. Some newer high carbon stainless will but it is to expensive for broadheads. Broadheads are no where near as hard as good knife steels, or you couldn't file them. I guess you file your knives too. Some of the newer heads are harder than the old bears. Do you even know what the Rockwell C hardness scale is or how to check it. I thought you market knives???? I get they just put your name on them but you should at least know something about them. Do you need any heads or knives checked for hardness? Give it up Ron you are spoiling your reputation. You are hurting your credibility. It may start affecting your endorsements.You have had many opportunities to stop this but you have to get one more dig in. I read your writings, I love your photos, Archery, motorcycle, mountain bike, Hawks, knives,canoe, furs and leathers. Why do I have to like serrated or mutilated broadheads???? By the way my beard is much longer too. HA. Isn't it time for another End of Trail or cartoon.Take care of that shoulder surgery Ron and try to Chill just a tad O.K. Regards, >>>>-----> Ken

I put that in paragraphs what did I do wrong? Unlike some people I do make mistakes. I do read ever word. How many more quotes do you want made public???? Still here. Want to go to email? Want to go to PM's we can spare the rest of the LW. >>>>-----> ken

Ken, I tried to read your post but the lines were too close together and it was giving me a headache so I didn't read it. I'm sure it wasn't anything new anyway...same oh same oh.

I did see the word motorcycle in there, Someone send me this picture of an old biker and told me it was you. (snicker)

Thanks to those of you who responded to my quesion in the original post: " For those of you who have tested or hunted with both the serrated and non-serrated versions of the same broadhead (for example, the Magnus Black Hornet regular and the Ser Razor, or the Stinger vs. the Stinger Buzzcut), have you noticed any actual difference in penetration between them?"

Thanks old man. Didn't think you could read. That explains your repetition and ignoring the facts. You couldn't read them. I am

sorry. The debate was just to help others. Did't I just say it

was time for another cartoon since you had exhausted your ammo.

Definitely in your second childhood. Every one knows the cartoon

is a self portrait. The head band,beard,and nose are dead

giveaways. See the other portrait in this very thread. No one

appears in your photos more than you do. >>>----> ken

oldnewby, If you are shooting 50 pounds or more at your draw length. You won't notice the difference. You should get pass through's with either,with the exception of hogs. With numerous kills using both, a standard cut on contact head will give a little more penetration. So you don't have to read all the nonsense,Serrated/scalloped/jagged what ever you want to call the heads especially if they are vented, carry fat and hair into the wound channel. It tends to impede penetration. I have done exhaustive tests with them. With lighter draw weight it is best to steer away from vents and serrations. I won't go into all the details on here again but am more than happy to share results with you. If you have any questions just PM.me. Sorry but someone refuses to allow me to dislike his favorite broadhead and keeps digging. I will always be here to refute him. Take care, >>>----. Ken

oldnewby, There are many replies on this thread to your question saying they noticed no difference between the Stinger and the Buss-cut in penetration.

Ken's "test" have been dismissed for reasons stated. Bottom line, use what head you have confidence in and good luck hunting this fall.

Last night I sharpened my Cliff Zwickey broadheads to shaving sharp. I looked at one under a microscope today to see what the edge looked like.

Osage, that's a perfect example of a over honed edge. It doesn't make a difference with a broadhead and is honed perfect for hunting but with a Razor the serrations have to be even and spaced. If that edge was on one of my Razors I would run it through a piece of soft pine to take the edge off and hone it so the serrations were more uniform.

I didn't post that picture to get involved in your back and forth posts. I just thought it was interesting to see what the edge looked like under magnification.

Thanks Clint for that magnified picture of the edge.

Don't pay any attention to the ravings of you know who, he's obsessed and depressed to the point of being distracting from the real issue.

In his last post he wrote 9 lines and mention my name 5 times. It would be interesting to know what a psychologist would have to say about that. ????

Are you sure Ron and Ken aren't brothers? Sure sounds like it. ;)

Hey George, I tried to be archery brothers with him. Just like with you. I was complementing him, telling him how much I enjoyed his writings and photography. About all we had in common bows,hawks,knives,leathers,furs,motorcycles and canoeing. I said we have one small difference of opinion. There are better broadheads out there. He would have none of it. I am not allowed to have a different opinion. It started a long time ago on another site. I seldom go back there. You are not allowed to disagree with the powers that be.He brought it here too. The pins came today. I will PM you later. Take care,>>>---->Ken

No not brothers George, I'm just havin fun with Kenny, it doesn't take much to get him goin. Kinda like throwin a little gas on the fire then watching the flareup. 8>)

I like this picture better 8>)

I think the difference here is that Ken is testing at about #45 and Ron is recalling his hunting experiences with #90 or so. And the differences are so slight that it’ll take Ron about 20 years to notice them in the field.

And I’m looking forward to reading all about it.

Works every time

Darn, I left my serrating file in the truck

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