Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


*Hook*

Messages posted to thread:
Bowmania 09-Sep-18
moebow 09-Sep-18
Draven 09-Sep-18
Draven 09-Sep-18
Liquid Tension 09-Sep-18
George Tsoukalas 09-Sep-18
2 bears 09-Sep-18
oscar11 09-Sep-18
Elderly OCR 09-Sep-18
RonG 09-Sep-18
Draven 09-Sep-18
Ranman 09-Sep-18
Jim 09-Sep-18
Bowmania 10-Sep-18
Elderly OCR 10-Sep-18
GLF 10-Sep-18
Phil 10-Sep-18
jk 10-Sep-18
fnshtr 10-Sep-18
moebow 10-Sep-18
Elderly OCR 10-Sep-18
Dan W 10-Sep-18
RonG 10-Sep-18
Jeffer 10-Sep-18
Ken Williams 10-Sep-18
Elderly OCR 10-Sep-18
Phil 10-Sep-18
LightPaw 11-Sep-18
Sam Dunham 11-Sep-18
Bassman 14-Sep-18
rattlesnake 14-Sep-18
deerhunt51 14-Sep-18
dean 15-Sep-18
Caughtandhobble 15-Sep-18
From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Sep-18




If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment. DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I DO IT, DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU.

Second of two places where the bow is touched. It's as important as the grip and probably more complicated.

The hook is somewhat problematic because of the length difference of fingers. To add to that is the difference in the location of the joints, that the string rides in, on those different length fingers. If you look at that last sentence it rules out shooting with the string on the tips of the fingers. I'm not saying you can't shoot off the tips of your fingers, but I will say that you won't have as good a release as if you have a deep hook. (IF need be we could get into particulars to back up that statement, but it's kind of a no brainer to me, BUT then again this is the Leatherwall) Very much like shooting a glove, it puts you behind the 8-ball.

IF you look at your fingers with the Boy Scout salute, you'll most likely see 3 different locations of the first joint on each finger. My fingers has the first and third finger joints pretty close together with the middle being about a half inch different than the first. If I crook my fingers like they're holding the string, my second and third are almost in line. It does me not good, I want my joints in a straight line – but they're not!!!

If I go to Rick McKenney to see what I should do, he has a picture of all three joints in a row – straight line!!! Further he has the string on those three in a row joints riding on the inside of those joints. Meaning in the direction of the palm of the hand!!! Keep that in mind.

If I go to KSL, he starts off with a hook that can make things easier for the 'odd' jointed. In his book all the pictures of the hook, he has the string riding in the middle of the pad on the third finger. Guess what? It's easier to get two joints in a line the three.

Further, in the 'set' position ( bow at a 45 to the target with slight tension on the string) he says the first finger should have 70 to 80 % of the force of the bow. Then at full draw that distribution changes to 40-50-10. I don't think there's anyway to judge exactly what the percentage are exactly and it doesn't matter. BUT I think they are key to figuring out YOUR string placement.

One little diversion from the hook, which is also important. At the set position, the wrist is not straight. It should be cocked in, as in if you're right handed, the wrist should be bent to the left. What this does is when the draw starts the wrist straightens out, turning the string to the right and pushes the arrow into the riser/rest/strike plate. Especially important for kids that flex their forearm during the draw, which causes the arrow to come off the rest. (pinching down on the nock has nothing to do with this problem)

OK, back to hooking, taking the above into consideration here's what works for my fingers. On the third finger I have the string in the middle of the pad. Now, keep in mind that my middle finger joint is about a half an inch from the first finger joint. The string on the second finger rides on the inside of the joint (toward the palm) and the string is in the joint of the first finger.

If I think about the 80% in the set position I can feel it until I start to draw. Then at full draw it seems the string has rolled into the joint of the middle finger putting it in line with the first finger. The roll makes me feel that my strongest middle finger now has 50 % of the weight and the forefinger lost about half. There is method to this maddness.

Once you have it figure out for your own fingers, there's no thinking involved. Your subconscious places the string where it needs to be. You first have to figure out what to tell your subconscious. Hopefully you'll have all joints in a row and be able to make things simple.

Bowmania

From: moebow
Date: 09-Sep-18




Bowmania, Good posts, this one and others you have done but...

I will disagree with this one; " It should be cocked in, as in if you're right handed, the wrist should be bent to the left."

I'd recommend a change to "It should be cocked OUT as in if you're right handed the wrist should be bent to the RIGHT." (Wrist OUT)

Then, as you draw and the bow weight straightens the wrist, the fingers and arrow will be turned towards the strike plate not away from it causing the arrow to fall off the shelf.

Arne

From: Draven
Date: 09-Sep-18




I tried both ways and both ways work. If the arrow moves off the shelf when drawing it means the fingers are too tight around the arrow nock and whatever the user is doing is reflecting in the arrow movement. I like to hook above the middle finger joint and before starting to draw let the string roll toward the joint. This will rotate the string and through the nock will push the arrow on the side shelf.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Sep-18




PS Another thing that is related with the hook and fingers (shooting in general) is how well protected the fingers are will influence the shooting. The first thing that WILL let down is not the back muscles or shoulders but the fingers, especially if you don't shoot just 20 arrows and you are done for the day.

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 09-Sep-18




I favor a deep hook in the 1st joint or beyond. The back of the hand needs to be tension free which isn’t possible with a shallow hook. The relaxed hand is vital to a good clean release.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 09-Sep-18




The deep hook is the way to go. I've been using it for years. Jawge

From: 2 bears
Date: 09-Sep-18




I am thinking Todd meant the wrist is cocked out, the hand is turned to the left. I hope or I am messed up.>>>----> Ken

From: oscar11
Date: 09-Sep-18




Thanks, I enjoy trying to improve my shooting.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 09-Sep-18




Shallow for me, just like Ford and Pope recommended.

From: RonG
Date: 09-Sep-18




Todd, I tried the deep hook for two years and did fairly well, as you were saying as soon as you bend your fingers the joints line up, at least mine do. I have recently gone back to my Howard Hill glove which I have to shoot off the fingertips or a shallow hook. and I was surprised on how much smoother the release was and my groups improved considerably. I'm sure it has to do with each persons capabilities and or equipment, But I have to disagree with the deep hook as being smoother because the string has to travel over a lot more area of glove material before it gets airborn than a shallow grip.

I agree that it is a lot easier to draw with a deep hook because your fingers don't have to hold the poundage, but I have extremely strong hands and it is no problem for me.

Shallow for me also.

Thanks for posting this, it needs to be discussed to let folks know the differences so they may try and see what works best for them.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Sep-18




Ron you are right. I never had a glove that was comfortable for deep hook drawing when using heavy bows. All the ones I used have the stalls just a tad above the finger joint, favouring a shallow-ish hook. With a tab this part is solved. Protection is there, you just have to pick your poison.

From: Ranman
Date: 09-Sep-18




Thanks for this post.

From: Jim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Sep-18




I couldn’t agree with you more RonG ........Jim

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Sep-18




" But I have to disagree with the deep hook as being smoother because the string has to travel over a lot more area of glove material before it gets airborn than a shallow grip." I would have thought this to be true, but it's not. Rick McKenney has a picture in his book.

Arne, we may have a disagreement it discription. If you're right handed and you stick your right hand out in front of you, you cock it to the left - to me that's in towards your body and the bow. Now when your wrists straightens it turns the string to the right - where the riser is. Cock your wrist to the right and it turns your string to the left and off the rest.

Maybe I should have said if you point your finger straight away and then bend your wrist IN or left, your fingers will be pointing to the left. KSL has a picture in his book of this bend.

Bowmania

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Sep-18




A picture or a slo mo video? ;)

From: GLF
Date: 10-Sep-18




The more shallow the hook the more hand and forearm tension it takes to hold the string so the string tends to have to go around tensed bent fingers. The deep hook makes holding the string easier so it's easier to relax the fingers. At least that's how it is for me. Less string plucking happens.

From: Phil
Date: 10-Sep-18




The beauty of the anatomy of the fingers is the three joint phalangeal system. By changing the angle of individual proximal, intermediate and distal phalangeal joints, each finger has the ability to change it's own length relative to the other digits. It also gives the hand the ability to align all the finger tips and the joint into the same plane.

So I would disagree with your assertions in the first paragraph of your first post that "The hook is somewhat problematic because of the length difference of fingers"

From: jk
Date: 10-Sep-18




Tab.

From: fnshtr
Date: 10-Sep-18




Excellent post!

Thanks for taking the time.

From: moebow
Date: 10-Sep-18




YEP, Bowmania, The language can be a problem sometimes. Sounds like our description is of the same thing, just expressed differently.

Arne

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Sep-18




"The beauty of the anatomy of the fingers is the three joint phalangeal system. By changing the angle of individual proximal, intermediate and distal phalangeal joints, each finger has the ability to change it's own length relative to the other digits. It also gives the hand the ability to align all the finger tips and the joint into the same plane. So I would disagree with your assertions in the first paragraph of your first post that "The hook is somewhat problematic because of the length difference of fingers"

Yes, but for some that still creates wildly different tension levels in each finger to crook them in a way where the hook would sit evenly in a single joint groove.

From: Dan W
Date: 10-Sep-18




Just tried finger tip shooting for the first time in who knows how long- but with only a 42-ish lb. draw wt. recurve. No problem; except that my draw hand felt uncomfortable & stiff, but still got off the string fast & easy; same follow through & arrow went where it was supposed to. But then I followed that up by going back to deep hook, and the draw hand felt more relaxed- so what's "right"?

Curious to keep exploring; I teach a lot & want to keep all options open for wildly differing students and at least have the ability to demonstrate all techniques, whether for good or ill.

From: RonG
Date: 10-Sep-18




Dan W. it takes more finger strength to hold a bow string with a shallow hook. If you shot that way for a while it will come around to being comfortable, let's face it, Howard Hill, John Shulz and many others used the shallow hook, it's what you get used to. Just because someone has a picture in a book doesn't mean he is correct. That is another problem I believe, what is written in a book is not law, it's someone opinion.

I have gone back to my shallow hook with no snap shooting, I can hold the string at full draw for as long as I need to with out panicking and the release is by far smoother and more accurate in my case, my hand doesn't leave my anchor, I have found that the string does get a little closer to my face because of the string doesn't travel as far and I can put the string right near my face. I'm also not pulling the string away by trying to open my fingers to release.

Think of it this way Deep hook is a standard trigger pull A shallow hook is a hair trigger.....much more accurate and less movement to mess up the arrow travel.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it....LOL!

Thanks Draven and Jim.

From: Jeffer
Date: 10-Sep-18




Here's my take on it. I think a deep hook simply helps an archer isolate their back muscles better and promote better back tension. The reasons why are in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wF7OWQmTkU&t=204s

Cheers Jeff

From: Ken Williams
Date: 10-Sep-18




Couldn’t get the link to work , Jeff. Who is doing the video and what is the title ?

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Sep-18




Copy and paste into your browser.

From: Phil
Date: 10-Sep-18




Jeffer, I agree with you regarding the promotion of better back tension. I would also add that the deeper hook engages the back muscles a little earlier in the draw cycle compared to using the tips of the fingers

From: LightPaw
Date: 11-Sep-18




The deep hook works well for me too and adds about 1/2” to my draw length.

From: Sam Dunham Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Sep-18




I hook with the wrist turned in, no tension in the hand or arm, utilize the rotational draw, get 1/2th of the draw free.

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 14-Sep-18




Deep hook for me.

From: rattlesnake
Date: 14-Sep-18




Boyscouts back in day taught us fingertips...I've found latter in life deep hook just works for me...can't argue with results...goes against my better thinking but my groups improve in half as a result of a deep hook...

From: deerhunt51
Date: 14-Sep-18




Deep hook works great for me.

From: dean
Date: 15-Sep-18




How deep is a deep hook?

From: Caughtandhobble
Date: 15-Sep-18




Bowmania, I really enjoy your post. You always have something good to offer. For the price, well your advise is priceless :)

One thing I would like to add to this particular post is tab placement on the string its self. It is very important to have a tab that actually allows consistent hand placement. I have found the Safari Tuff tab works best for me.

I believe that two string nocks are very important as well. Having two string nocks aid in consistent hand placement along with other benefits. The two string nocks prevent excessive pressure on the arrow nock that can caused by tab being directly touching the arrow nock. Not only does two string nocks prevent excessive pressure it also insures exact hand placement shot after shot.

It is amazing on just how much one eighth (1/8") of an inch difference in hand placement on the string can change the arrows impact on the target, even at very short distances.

Thank you for taking your time to help us out, Lord knows most of us need all the help we can get :)





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