I find myself shooting much more consistently and more accurately if I do the exact opposite. There's a lot of Joel Turner's teachings that I don't agree with, but setting my aim and letting my subconscious take over that portion, then placing my focus on my pre-release movements in my back/draw arm elbow works much better for me. My aim is like Ron Popeil, set it and forget it. Focusing on my sequence from holding position to follow through is what works for me. But that's the great thing about archery, everyone has what works best for them and every path to find their own perfect shot.

Great OP post but many will not understand it's meaning.

You will shoot the way you train and you must train to aim when the aiming process starts in the sequence. Seeing your objective is not burning a hole before you even start drawing the bow. You aim when it comes to aiming in the sequence.

When you draw down you damm better be free or the outcome on the target will be marginal.

Keep it simple stupid you ever hear of that.

For the young and inexperienced I say this keep the least amount of thoughts in your head as possible as you draw down down be deliberate as you aim while picking that spot . That will make you as free as you need to know it then becomes automatic if you keep it simple.

Know your distances and limitations and if you want to broaden your scope then move out from the target and if that falls apart then move up to the target until you have things sorted out.

All these long drawn out dramas put to much in your head that can cause you TP.

Remember to keep it simple this is not rocket science.

Burning a hole is part of the sequence even if its for a few seconds as you draw and shoot.

When you guys look at your knocks or feathers in the target after you get a good shot in the zone you want to hit that is like burning a hole. Thats why you can shoot groups.LOL

On animals and live game there aren't any of those arrows in the critter so its the one shot.

You have to learn anatomy and once you know that and how they stand when your going to make the shot makes you free.

Free from the thoughts and BS that is negative!

The positive is yes I can make this shot as you draw and shoot in whatever sequence you come up with.

That keeps it simple stupid enough don't it.LOL

You don't usually train for game shots they aren't 3D targets most of the times and just stand there like a 3D target saying here I am now hit me.

BTW if your shooting is falling apart try to have someone watch you it can save you a lot of bad habits we all get into at times especially if you had any lay offs.

Burning a hole before you even draw will cause TP. Your conscious is saying shoot now! and you end up short drawing or not making it to anchor or snap shooting.

I totally agree with the burning a hole being a bad idea. Part of the reason mentioned above and this. Look at a door knob that's about 20ish feet away. Look at the exact center - burn a hole. I can do it, but only for about 1 second. After that other things start to come into my peripheral vision. I think that's you subconscious saying keep this up and I'm bringing you a small dose of TP, TO START. LOL.

I agree with LT's post, but for myself it's a little different because I only shoot 10 arrows at a session. This makes me work on segments of the shot. When I'm shooting at the blank bail I'm usually working on part of the sequence not the whole thing.

I can verify LT's idea with a little story. I've had a sequence for 30 years, no 26, but about 20 years ago I wrote it down with numbers. I believe I had 11 things. Going into the season I thought that was too long for hunting. I cut it down to 9 and I thought that was still too long. I also shot with a mantra - Kill, Kill, Kill...

I'm sitting near field where deer are going out to feel, 50 yards from the field, but close to swamp near the edge of the woods. It's prett open and I have a doe walking towards me to get to the field, alone. She's shoulder to me but I'm going to get a 13 yard shot quartering away. Before she gets broadside she cuts off on a trail I didn't see and I get a shot which turned out to be 32 yards which I probably wouldn't have taken if I had know it was that far.

She stopped at that spot and I started my mantra and shot. The shot looked perfect, but after the deer started running I thought to myself, SH%t, I didn't go through my sequence. That's what I was working on all year. It was like you make the worst shot your capable of and it goes into the X-ring.

Since it's a good shot I'm waiting a half or 45 minutes and I started thinking about the shot. I thought back and realized I did EVERYTHING in the sequence!!!!! As LT says, I was "thinking of nothing" or I was in a zone.

Now, to think about nothing when I'm shooting at a target, that's a step or two above me. By the way, after that incident my sequence went back to 11.

One more thing about 'burning a hole'. It comes with the warning of don't do it because I do it, do it because it makes sense. In my sequence at the set up position I guess they call it pregap the shot, then I look at my cresting (so I dont' burn a hole) and start the draw.

Bowmania

Yes.

IMHO, if you have a potential weapon in your hand and you are not aiming, you are a danger.

Free to not aim? Really?

Wild Bill, "Free to not aim? Really?" I don't get it. I don't think you got that from LT's original post.

Bowmania

For me totally fake news guys about not burning a hole before you draw you have to have something your looking at or your not going to be able to aim at it. I don't shoot game without doing that. No time for TP when shooting game your not caught up in all the variables.!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I have an animal in my sight I watch it and when he comes to where I am going to shoot its automatic to draw and shoot as soon as I reach my anchor when I am committed unless animal does something to cause me to have to let off. I never take my eyes off the target thats how I aim.

The entire time I am watching that animal if that's not burning a hole what is it then and don't take eyes off spot to watch.

With a target that I can see close I will focus on a hole in the target that's in the zone if its 3D then aim for that spot thats how I burn holes same as saying pick a spot its just watching and focused. If I can't see the hole then I use the animal or targets form to adjust on if its out further.

No wonder some have TP to much playing around and talking its all not this hard as its being talked about.

Gee nI never saw any door knobs in the woods or on target ranges so now your bringing more BS into the mix talking about a door knob as a reference.LOL

If you draw first and then burn a hole I think you could all be mixed up and not free.LOL You took your eyes off the intended target and would have to refocus.

First thing I do when I hit an animal is identify with shot and watch animal ever so close as much as I can. What did the animal do when they left?

Ok listen. When I hear the animal fall that is most often or crashing through bush I know that was a good sign. I go get arrow and look at whats on it. Did I hit where I thought I hit? And then arrow tells me. Arrow don't lie to me or fake news me.

No sequence talking for me I am automatic. I might not even have come to full draw it depended on the animals distance. Game shots shoot much different than target shooters most of the time.

Nothing is written in stone there's many variables you will find out.

To me burning a hole is intently watching where I want to hit as I draw and shoot. The computor in my head tells me where to aim as I adjust automatically.

What else is it. If a new shooter tried to do what has been suggested from some I believe they could get all screwed up and pick up bad habits. Just saying.

Keep it simple stupid remember that new shooters.

Liquid: Good post, lots of solid advice at the top of this thread. Thanks.

Guys -

Aiming is pretty low on the list of things I worry about.

Viper out.

Something I wrote on another forum that got me into trouble with the "burn a hole and let the subconscious take over guys"

"... Spatial summation occurs when several action potentials AP1,AP2 and AP3 arrive simultaneously at different synapses on the same post synaptic membrane. In other words ...aiming"

Gotta agree with Viper. Like I said in my reply, set your aim and move on. "Burning a hole" and trusting your "muscle memory" to take over the shot is going to burn you someday. Do you "burn a hole" in the road as you drive? No, but somehow you still keep it between the lines. Concentrate on your shot activation and let the space between your ears hold your aim.

In one of my first 'form threads' I said, " If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment." This isn't my thread but it's that type of form.

(RymanCat, this may or may not be directed to you.) In addition, I've posted more than once this warning - don't do it because I do it, do it because it makes sense to you. This doesn't make sense to you DON'T DO IT.

Take any sequence that has 'aiming' in it. Most sequences have about 10 subjects in them, so as I've seen said more than once 'aiming is only 10% of the shot'.

In my opinion that does not diminish it's importanced.

"Aiming is pretty low on the list of things I worry about." I agree for me it's actually #9 of 10.

Bowmania

Exactly what Bowmania said

I always thought aiming was as simple as pointing your finger at a target. I'm not a expert and pretty like to keep things simple, point, draw, shoot.

"please refrain from ruining this thread for Archers who can learn it."

Not a very good statement. Is one persons opinion more valuable than another if its not they're own experience? Just because one person has success using a certain way of shooting doesn't meant it's right for everyone. Old Howard had an entirely different way of shooting that worked for him very well. It wasn't for everybody either. Shoot how ever it works best for you.

" If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment."Are you sure you know that much more than everyone else?

Love these threads. Keep them coming. I've learned so much from reading what L.T., Bowmania, and others have posted. My shooting is 10x better this year than last year because of these gentlemen's selflessness. I still have a long, long way to go but there is at least some light. Thank you fellas!! Brad

I am thinking that Len and Others who teach have been proven wrong? lol

Burning holes, AKA=snap shooting.

Viper, I bet you are talking mostly of sight shooters?

So if you guys do not care much about aiming? How well do you shoot?

Even Byron aims and becomes the arrow.

So now we have arrived at not aiming? lol

LT I apologize. You are correct in saying that. I've said the same thing myself many times. Just caught me at a bad time.

Please don't look at my style of shooting from one person. I'll steal from anyone who makes sense to me LOL.

Bowmania

Aiming is not traditional.

"So now we have arrived at not aiming? lol"

Actually no. In my understanding, Viper said something different that can be translated with "if you are not hitting where you want the aiming is at the end of the list of things you have to check/correct".

PS Regarding this "burn a hole" I always understood it as an advise for the apprentice to follow: "nothing comes between the thought and the action and nothing is left over." It's not even what some are refer it as an aiming system - it's a state of mind.

L.T. could you go into a bit more detail on the "Drive By". I think I get what you mean, your aiming at the wrong time during the shot or your aiming before the rest of the shot is set up?

Whew doggies. I'll put my bet on Viper's advice above.

Seems like even the best target shooters who have specific set ups for shooting who are good hunters too, know enough not to do more than just take or not take a shot at game and not worry too much about how or specific aiming. Hunting small game is a good example. You quickly pick the hair on the hare and be done with it. A cottontail, jack, or swamp rabbit ain't gonna wait around too long for you to figure it all out, even on the coldest day. Just shoot that dude or go find another.

missing is traditional.

Thanks. There is a lot to think about in your post. I reread it twice already. Two things that I am doing come immediately to mind. #1 I try to keep pulling from when I start the draw until the arrow is gone so the step where you "start your motor" is missing. I worry about collapsing or not being able to get going again if I stop. #2 I am already aiming before I hit anchor so as soon as I get close, or usually "drive by", the arrow is gone. It will take some work to be able to not aim until I start pulling through. Thanks for the post.

"missing is traditional."

That's true. Humans are not robots. Missing is traditional in the humans world.

I run a definite shot sequence every time. No matter what I’m shooting at. A deer, squirrel , or paper target. I have 10 steps, starting with feet, hook on string, grip, setting shoulder..those all kinda happen at once but I do them EVERY time. Draw,anchor, aim, expand, follow trough . All happen fairly quickly too BUT I don’t go to the next step until the previous is right. Aiming is #8, expand and follow through are almost a second or so after. Arrowchucker out.

PS. Listen to Viper!

Sam -

I'll answer your question. Yes, I was talking about sight shooters, but I was also talking about how I shot "instinctively" for 35 years.

Aiming isn't an issue with a sight. You put the thing on the thing and through practice you learn how to let the sight settle down.

When shooting instinctive, again through practice you learn a sight picture that includes everything in your visual field. You focus on the target, your brain knows where everything else (bow, arrow, bow arm, etc) is on some real level.

Modern bare bow requires more calculations, but once done, it's the same thing.

Most trad types who really suck at this game don't miss because of a poor aim, they suck because their form is lousy. Think about it. If aiming was what was holding them back, then putting a sight on their bow should fix everything. In fact the exact opposite happens. Things usually go from bad to worse.

Aiming is a critical part of the shot, but time and effort expenditure wise, it's a very small part. To make matters worse, intermediate level shooters will typically do worse by spending too much time on "aiming" and mess up the rest of their sequence.

Viper out.

When I gapped I sometimes got in the habit of peeking at the gap, it really messed my shot sequence up.

I made the switch to Stringwalking and after the initial adjustment I found I wasn't peeking and could shoot to conclusion much more relaxed. I was a good gap shooter by Stringwalking is more fun and relaxing for me.

"Aiming is pretty low on the list of things I worry about." I completely agree, I KNOW that if I "sell out" to the shot, meaning that I have enough confidence in my shot sequence, the arrow is going where it is supposed to go.

The subject really is about aiming when it is the time in the sequence. The point is; you ingrain your sequence and aim when it is time, consciously.

Shooting a Bow is like two guys, the front guy is the conscious mind and the rear guy is the subconscious.

The guy in the front is saying shoot! The guy in the rear is saying run your sequence and aim and shoot when it is time.

Learning a sequence and ingraining it, allows the SC to run the shot sequence without needing the C mind to do anything but aim when it is time.

Your target is 180 yards away .... how do you aim to hit it??

Most discussions like this benefit target archers, but hey are we not all target archers during practice ?

Of course we are, so there is some benefit even for us die hard bowhunters in discussions like this.

However I got to agree with Ryman a bit here.....live animals rarely give you all the time in the world to ponder the way you shoot.

So its best to have it engrained automatically. I reckon most of you guys that have to let down and start over during your "shot sequence" don't rely on venison as part of your diet?

And I won't even begin to discuss wing shooting, pheasant ect... pretty bad time to have your mind all cluttered up over shot sequence when one foot is stomping a brush pile, and a rabbit or ringneck flushes.

I shot a doe the first day of the season a number of years ago, nice broadside shot, entered behind her shoulder. She smashed off on a death run, made a big circle and ran right under my stand, and I arrowed her again as she passed by. She then ran to the edge of the ridge and went down.

Ya know afterwards I never even remember nocking another arrow !, or fretting over a shot sequence. As she ran by under me I just swung and released, and hit her mid way back. Times like that you don't have time to worry about how you shoot.

But you become automatic (or should) in the backyard prior to the excitement of the hunt. The last thing you want to be fretting about when you got venison in range is how you shoot.

Phil -

It's called Clout shooting for a reason and I'm sure you know the derivation. Yes, you're aiming at something. Just like a short draw guy with a light bow at 70 meters isn't aiming at the target, yet he can hit it.

Viper out.

Phil, on a shot like that it would be luck for me to hit it on the first try. But how I go about long shots like that is to use the trees in the back ground or some other topography and find a spot above the target for an aiming point. Once I found one that is inline with wher the arrow is impacting I start gapping off of it. At that distance the wind can play a big part. I once had had friendly completion with a buddy of mine shooting at a deer target at a paced 135 yards. It was in a timbered area. Once I found the branch I wanted to aim at I was able to drop 3 of 5 arrows into the kill. But the first shot is guess and by golly or just visualizing arrow flight.

"live animals rarely give you all the time in the world to ponder the way you shoot."

Thinking that can cause you to rush your shot when in fact you usually have a lot of time relatively speaking. The consequences of a hurried shot are usually not favorable.

Of course it depends on what game and other particulars. I try to never hurry the shot, but that is easier said than done in real world hunting esp. if you are not using a closed loop sequence.

No target archery for me. Hunt close and have fun, aim if you have to. Not my style of shooting, no over thinking it for me. No target panic, which is 100 % mental.

Got to let down when form doesn't feel right....tough to learn...

..if it doesn't feel right for an instant it's flat wrong...letting down would be impossible for a snap shooter, is harder for the same reason with heavier bows (the only advantage of 50# over 60# for me).

I'm mostly into 3D which means up to 40 yds around here...in the field at 10-15 yds I whup snap shooters even without my normal aiming, less accurate than some serious target shooters who hunt.

What you all have done here is sent a young archer directly to TP.

Mentioning these instructors is BS I seen some of them and just laughed to myself all these so call self proclaimed instructors are not game shooters. They don't have vast amounts of arrow kills. I DON'T PROCLAIM TO NO MAN! I'm not a groupie!

Talk is cheap what do you have to show for it? Whats actually in your arrow museum? That separates the men from the boys fast.

Do you have endless arrow trophy's to show or just words?

No offence but what is it. LOL

Yes there are sequences to draw and shoot. Absolutely let down when form don't feel right and if you don't then you may have TP. As you see I don't like to spell it out the TP it causes negative thought in my head.

If your not deliberate on your draw to shoot and you hesitate then that could translate into a miss. More than likely you will.

The only thing that's free is whats in your head nothing else. If your mental stability is up to par then your shooting is going to be better.

You can't teach a game shooter he becomes that naturally from time and experience doing it.

All this drama crap is all fake news to the younger shooter. I just bet to poor pup has his head spinning by now.

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell us how it is done Ryman. Maybe we can learn from you?

liquid tension....I have a hunch you haven't a clue. I think you totally misunderstood my post. Did I say ANYWHERE good form wasn't important?

just to clarify what I said ... for a bowhunter your better off if it is ingrained or automatic.

The practice is in the backyard, form is established in the backyard...then you won't need to fret or fuss about it in the field.

??? "Ingraining"...don't that sorta mean it becomes automatic? lol so your free to aim?

lol... ISNT THAT WHAT I SAID!!...lol....READ,!! I'm agreeing with you, but I also agreed with Ryman that living moving animals are different than shooting a stationary object in the yard.

The point being that; By ingraining a proper sequence, your shot does run itself automatically, freeing you to aim consciously, and with control for a deliberate shot.

A proper shot sequence trains us to do it right everytime and eliminates gimped animals.

We are no longer "flinging arrows", we are making a good shot every single time.

All this can happen very quickly. A proper shot can happen as fast as it needs to happen, We can shoot this way as quickly as the situation demands, even wingshooting!

"""The point being that; By ingraining a proper sequence, your shot does run itself automatically, freeing you to aim consciously, and with control for a deliberate shot. A proper shot sequence trains us to do it right everytime and eliminates gimped animals.

We are no longer "flinging arrows", we are making a good shot every single time.

All this can happen very quickly. A proper shot can happen as fast as it needs to happen, We can shoot this way as quickly as the situation demands, even wingshooting!"""

And there you go. D'accord.

I am free! Thank God! Jawge

Jawge and George, we are free! Good day to you, a good and blessed weekend and for the smell of that fall breeze that is around the corner.

RymanCat, You got me on that post. I had to walk away or …

You got my goat. Ok MR. Cat. Let's see your trophe room. This after noon or tomorrow AM I'll post a picture of mine (Well, I think the fireplace will be enought) I'd be very surprised if you've killed more species or animals than I have with a bow. While I was cooling down and before I'm thowing out this challange to you, I sent David McLendon a PM stating my totals. What are your totals?

I can back up my claim with a log that states date, animal, location, bow, broadhead etc. I don't think there's much room for fudging with the truth on my side.

Bowmania

This is all getting a little silly. I think I'll string up one of my Bickerstaffes and go shoot.

Phil, I agree. Now we came to the I did it more times than you, the my dog is bigger than your dog syndrome. I'm going out as well, but with the Brad Smith osage longbow. Enjoy and take some photos.

Two Ufinish hills coming my way and be here next week. Had them made with extended, more material in the grip. Will see what they turn out like?

Woodies for the September Longbow shoot in Conway area. I am lazy though, may just take my time because being impatient is a bad thing. Taking time is a good thing these days.

Nine species in this picture. The moose and the whitetail on the far right were killed with a gun by my Father.

There's a spot on the upper right hand corner that's kind of open. I'm going to move up the dall sheep, put a whitetail with a 20 3/4 inch spread above it, and then under the sheep the elk antlers on the far left should fit.

Bowmania

I understand why people get upset. We are passionate about the sport we love. But, please continue this thread.I like to hear both prospectives. Maybe ignore the people you don't agree with so the rest of us can learn. I'll sort through what I think pertains to me.Thanks Brad

Well... I've been out mowing grass so I just came in to this and I have no dog in it, but yes I got Todd's PM. I've done a lot but I'll never the match the number of species that Todd has to his credit, it's an impressive accomplishment no doubt. So, after all this my curiosity is up now so let's see'em, and find out just how cheap talk is. I'll check back to find out later, right now it's back to the tractor for me. Carry on :^)

1. Your form does all of the aiming you need. 2. No one can snap shoot and have a consistent draw and be accurate past 20 yards. 3. Anyone that needs five or more seconds to get off an accurate shot is limited to target shooting or animals that just want to die. 4. Everyone has their own needs and preferences, but is your's are different than mine, your's are wrong. Struttin' thread. Here is a strutable. 1969 three of us got out of school a bit early, grabbed our bows and headed out ofter pheasants. Bruce was in the middle in a railroad ditch. A hen pheasant busts in front of him. He yells,"HEN". And makes a perfect shot. He screams, "NO that's a hen. Who shot?"

i'd string up one of my Jawge bows but it is pouring out. I am sitting on my recliner, watching the the rain and checking the LW. Nap time! :) Jawge

George ...same here. just strung up a Bickerstaffe Self Yew bow made from Italian alpine yew ... then the heavens opened and the light went. Oh well there's always tomorrow.

Hmmm, 9:00pm and no Trophy Room pics, about what I figured, talk is in fact cheap. Big Hat, No Cattle. Also not surprising is how some of you folks start stepping and fetching and ducking for cover when Sh_t gets real. Like I said a long time ago there are about 10-12 people here that I pay attention to and would hunt with and they are the real reason that I hang around here and mostly read and PM back and forth. The internet is a funny place where you can meet good people and exchange real infornmation, it's also a place where somebody can be whatever they want to be, even when they aren't, because the keyboard can be a good safe hiding place. Once again a good thread was derailed, and there is a common thread there too.

A shot sequence is like building a house.

Build it on solid rock or sand?

Solid rock is a basic shot sequence which starts from the foundation up.

Each time you practice, just go up close and got through it step by step not trying to aim.

Feet, stance

Grip

Hook

Draw

Anchor

Balanced pulling front and back

Motor, back muscles engaged

Aiming,,Mantra,,aiming,,,aiming (not aiming close up) only thinking of the back and pulling.

Shot goes off, Letting the bow jump to target

Conclusion

Release is something that I do not include but can train at on the bale.

Release is a result of shooting the Bow.

1. Stance 2. Hook 3. Grip 4. Bow arm/ low bow arm shoulder 5. Rotate from hips up/ half draw for free 6. Complete draw to anchor 7. Holding position/ AIM 8. Expand/ pull, pull, pull 9. Shot breaks, follow through

To each their own, but a snap-shooting/ short drawing leaf kicker I will not be. I know what my "trophy wall" looks like, and i know how full my freezer gets...

When I coach novices pretty much Blank bale them.

I tell them they're aiming is hard wired into them from the day they started to walk and what the need to focus on is controlling they bow through a shot sequence, by the time they get to 20y they've got a sequence and the aiming came naturally.

Far too many obsess over aiming when it's actually the the most natural and easiest part of learning the bow and it's the biggest mistake newbies make when learning alone.

Lol..we are not obsessing, we are just aiming.

Not newbies, old killers!

Just obsessing about talking about aiming then lol

My point being that making aiming too high a priority risks something else in the shot going wrong. It's important but no more than attaining good alignment.

I know, seeing if you were awake? Take care!

I don't think aiming is the thing. The top archers I have studied were all secondary vision type guys be they Uhlmer in compound; Barrs in Olympic; or hill. They had a reference but simply looked at the target and allowed the aiming to happen. This is like looking down the road and having the car arrive continually at centered points further down the road. In some cases they were using sophisticated devices, but in none of the cases I studied where they focused on aiming as the one thought.

There are three things you need to do once you have the basics in hand: Aim, pull through the shot, and release. You can only focus on one of them. With heavy bows, it is probably best to focus on pulling through the shot, which is also a balanced form issue since you can't pull through the shot efficiently using bad form. At one time compound shooters where all about aiming as the single thing, I don't know what they think about shooting today. It made some sense for them as they have significant aids for let-off and release. But I still think they are best off focusing on pulling through the shot. But certainly with trad I think you need to focus on pulling the bow, and everything that goes into that. I train on release and aiming just happening.

yes, all agreed but there still needs to the time to focus on the aim in the sequence.

funny I was just thinking about this thread this morning while shooting.

I like to get up and shoot right after a good cup of coffee, and the morning is just starting, birds are singing, grass is wet from dew, I can smell the woods that surround my house, and see the occasional deer crossing the lane.

life is good...and yea I aim

Target panic is simply the result of errant thinking.

Or, not having a sequence and not having the proper instruction. Most are doing it wrong from the beginning, so was I.

I just reread this whole post and am starting to figure out what your saying. When I first started teaching Barbering I had to realize that the person I was teaching didn't know anything, how to hold a comb, how to hold the clippers. When you fellas were talking about sequence and nine steps I realized you were starting at beginning basics all the way through the shot. Now when I shoot I go through the sequence your talking about and it's like I said before, it's aim, draw and release. The other steps I don't even think about anymore than I would think about how to walk. Gotcha now LT.

Help me out here because I'm stupid ... explain to me (as if I were a 5 year old) how do you know that any part of your shot sequence is subconscious.

I gotta say, Phil, that is an excellent question. I've been shooting for so long I just go out and shoot and have fun. I'm really not aware of any shot sequence. If I think of anything my shot goes awry. Jawge

"When we say we want our Sequence subconscious we want all these steps running on their own & the time of release. At release I can’t be thinking of my grip, stance, pulling, draw elbow etc etc. All that needs to be done & on allowed to run on its own without interference."

After you've read that go to my first post on this thread and read about the doe that I shot. That post and LT's description here are one and the same. One thing builds on the next. You can't go back and fix the stance if you started drawing. You have to let down and start over.

Here's an analogy that may or may not be stupid. Thinking about grip and rip AND building a fireplace. You have some bricks at the bottom and then you throw in some 2X4's that support some brick in the middle, then more 2X4's, supporting the bricks at the top. The bricks are stance, aim, and release. The 2X4's are your friggin' subconscious free to do what ever the 'H' it wants. Yea, you can have a few good fires, but the foundation is not very solid.

Now, go to Sam's sequence above. That's brick by brick building from bottom to top. Solid and wide at the bottom and like a pyramid to the point on top. He's getting a solid shot every time. When you go from the first brick to the last all the subconscious can do is follow, it's occupied with changes from 1 to 10 or the number in your sequence.

Here's Zetabow saying "My point being that making aiming too high a priority risks something else in the shot going wrong. It's important but no more than attaining good alignment." The brick on the bottom are as important as the bricks at the top.

Bowmania

"When we say we want our Sequence subconscious we want all these steps running on their own & the time of release. At release I can’t be thinking of my grip, stance, pulling, draw elbow etc etc. All that needs to be done & on allowed to run on its own without interference."

After you've read that go to my first post on this thread and read about the doe that I shot. That post and LT's description here are one and the same. One thing builds on the next. You can't go back and fix the stance if you started drawing. You have to let down and start over.

Here's an analogy that may or may not be stupid. Thinking about grip and rip AND building a fireplace. You have some bricks at the bottom and then you throw in some 2X4's that support some brick in the middle, then more 2X4's, supporting the bricks at the top. The bricks are stance, aim, and release. The 2X4's are your friggin' subconscious free to do what ever the 'H' it wants. Yea, you can have a few good fires, but the foundation is not very solid.

Now, go to Sam's sequence above. That's brick by brick building from bottom to top. Solid and wide at the bottom and like a pyramid to the point on top. He's getting a solid shot every time. When you go from the first brick to the last all the subconscious can do is follow, it's occupied with changes from 1 to 10 or the number in your sequence.

Here's Zetabow saying "My point being that making aiming too high a priority risks something else in the shot going wrong. It's important but no more than attaining good alignment." The brick on the bottom are as important as the bricks at the top.

Bowmania

I guess I should comment on what happened here. I want to apologize for loosing my temper. I took a break, but it wasn't long enough. Look what happened. We apparently lost RymanCat. Some may think good, but it's not. If we all had the same opinion what would be the point of the LW PERIOD. That's why I don't understand the 'debate free' button. IT's all debate and like that would have stopped this?

There's ways of explaining things and OTHER ways of explaining things. Two things might have happened if he had said, "your form of shooting is teaching TP to young shooters to start, because..." We would have been able to discuss that. And in the time that it took him to explain 'his difference of opinion' that's all it was, he may have calmed down and not came up with the next offensive statement.

In reality, so what if he had more kills than me or I had more. We should always look at our post as there's always going to be someone with a different opinion, have more kills than me, be a better archer etc. When you go out on a limb, there's always the chance that you might have to eat crow. Keep that in mind the next time you post. The Leatherwall will be a better place for it.

I sure do miss One Sharp Broadhead.

Bowmania

I thought it was all good pretty much. A casual conversion and discussion, not to take myself or anyone else too seriously, like my shot process, I like to ingrain relaxed.

RC would be good to come and talk, without some disagreement, a lot of the discussion would not come out.

Good Sunday.

Howard Hill wrote, "Too much thinking is bad for concentration." Certainly, much happened to get to that state of mind. Sooner or later we all try to get to that state of mind. The problem for many is, they never get past all of the forced conscious mechanical thought. I believe in visually 'boring a hole through it', I know that I can see my arrow and I remember where it was in my peripheral when I release, I know what my good form feels like and what it is suppose to look like. Do i get it all automatically accomplished at every animal that i shoot at? Nope. A target does not care if you miss, an animal would much prefer that you miss, that is a huge difference. Those first small game shots that I take every September can be very revealing.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that when Howard Hill wrote ""Too much thinking is bad for concentration." he might have been wrong.

Liquid tension ... tell me how you know "It’s subconscious @ the time of the release"

I do my thinking at the Bale, the trick is to know when to let go, or even when to go back to the Bale.

It's a continuous process of ingraining my sequence to the point where I can let it run through without overthinking the whole thing, it's a delicate balance, many don't get because of impatience.

Is ingraining a sequence the same as a subconscious sequence ??

You haven't answered my previous question, so with all due respect, I don't think you could answer my next question.

OK point taken, but, one last question before I go ... what's your thoughts on the constrained-action hypothesis and the influence it has on precision repeatable motor tasks.

Phill, if the subconscious is the hard drive, the so called ingrained sequence is part of the information stored on the hard drive. You can access that information without necessary being fully aware that you used shooting sequence 8 learnt on day 20 of the year 20100. What was your really question?

I wouldn't call it subconscious, just ingrained to a level where if something feels wrong as I'm running the shot I became very aware and can restart the shot.

I'm aware of each waypoint as I run through my sequence, like anchor, alignment, aim and expansion but I certainly not thinking at the same level when I working at the Bale, I'm trying to understand/ingrain what the correct feel should be.

I shut down a lot of the clutter and just running through the waypoints, I wouldn't say I'm subconscious, there is always cognitive input.

Subconscious is a too complex word and someone can debate on it until the end of days. I would say different levels of awareness.

I know a fairly successful deer hunter that has only one shot. Same height off of the ground same distance with in a yard. He shoots three under, index finger on the high crown of his cheek orbital bone. He has said many times that he does not see the arrow. YES HE DOES!! He says that his aim is based on his form, so he does not aim. YES HE DOES, for four or five seconds. He is trapped at that one shot. It seems that some people need to go through precise mechanical steps while other people have motor skills that can engage in a multi- task set of movements to build a shot with out much direct thought. I acknowledge the position of the arrow in my visual on long shots, The more I practice those long shots, to a point, the process of the aim gets more fluid and automatic, not necessarily instinctive. I have watched Howard Hill videos in slow motion, it seems to me, when viewing his finite movements before release that two things are revealed. 1. He could aim very quickly in the process of his shot to a fine degree. 2. His release was aim motivated, not timing motivated. His aim was fluid and automatic most of the time, the fluid timing was the result of everything coming together at the right moment of anchor and full draw. Kind of what came first? The chicken or the egg. For those that say all of that is pure hoohah, perhaps they do not possess the drive and patience to stay on a program long enough to develop it or simply are one of those that have difficulties developing complex motor skills and are better off with a more step by step process that remains that way. Neither is wrong, it is going with the method that fits the individual. Some people can take an accurate shot with a sighted rifle, while others can hit a running back hand on a tennis court and hit their opponent in the belly button often enough to predict it. That same person when shooting a sighted rifle may have pre-stress from the step by step mechanical processes that causes a flinch when pulling they the trigger and cause erratic accuracy. Everyone's motor runs on it own RPM.

One more fact to throw on this fire for the guys that think the subconscious cant aim. What exactly do you think "instinctive" shooting is? It's nothing more than a subconscious gap, the only true instinctive shot anybody ever takes is the very first arrow they shoot. In my opinion there is no such thing as instinctive aiming, its a learned subconscious gap. And before you guys want to string me up and hang me from the trad tree, that's how I shoot out to around 30 yds. After that the arrows in my line of sight so I use it.

It's a fact, what is called instinctive shooting is in fact and incredible store house of ingrained gap, built from at best a refined and ingrained shot sequence, and then on to a catalogue of learned and ingrained gaps as a result of thousands of arr ows at incremental distances, Your mind is able to spin through that rolodex of gaps without your conscious interference and choose the one to make the shot work, and it does. This is not mean to discount or discredit what many prefer to call Instinctive Shooting, but this is what is going on there after multitudes of hopefully intelligently planned practice sessions. I can and do shoot instinctive out to 35 yards, you are not confined to 17.3 or 20 yards if your set up is suitable for longer shots. I also Gap, Fixed Gap and my new passion and work in progress is String walking. I do it all from the same bow and set up with Instinctive being Split finger and everything else 3 under. I was happy with the so called instinctive although I called mine split vision as I am conscious of the arrow ( I don't know how you couldn't be) but don't use it in the process. But I have a weird and rare eye disease that may one day make me blind in hopefully just one eye, so I learned the rest in case that happens. I prefer to use a different arrow set up for instinctive, heavier with my fav broadhead, but with fixed gap or string walking I use a lighter flatter shooting arrow to take advantage of the flatter trajectory. The bottom line for any of these aiming or non-aiming :^) systems is a rock solid repeatable ingrained shot sequence. If you don't have one, then you are stumbling in the dark whether you want to accept that fact or not.

Instinctive shooting is not a subconscious gap. Paul Schafer taught him self to shoot by shooting at a laser dot in the dark. Hit his camera through the lens at 90 yards... he won a $10 bet. He and other well known hunters were a guest at some ranch and they had a shooting contest. Paul hung with the compound sight shooter out to 70 yards.

Hand eye coordination better describes instinctive shooting... your bow hand directs the arrow to go where the eye is looking. The target/gap shooters can't say stupid things either :)

dean gets the star for the best post on this thread " 3. Anyone that needs five or more seconds to get off an accurate shot is limited to target shooting or animals that just want to die. "

priceless...lol

Ingrained through intelligent and successful repetition is the word, not until you do it right, but until you can't do it wrong. If I'm not conscious, I'm either unconscious or asleep, hopefully asleep.

What you can do with a shot sequence,

Warming up for the gold medal match by shooting a group 3.5" * 1.5" at 50m. It's awesome what can be done with equipment with few accessories and tuned with some good shooting sticks.- John Demmer

Mens Barebow, Jon and Ben, grats!

must be the target number :)

So .. I think it's fair to say that we agree, that we, as archers, over time and repetition, establish a shot sequence that becomes "ingrained".

To put it in simple neurological terms, we establish a sequence of highly controlled, highly regulated events in the form of complex motor patterns. Those motor patterns are stored in the Extra Pyramidal system of the brain in the form of multi activity Engrams.

Now the key question is ... when the motor cortex calls upon and initiates the motor engram of the execution of an ("ingrained") archery shot is any part of the initiation, execution or regulation of that shot sequence subconscious??? .. the answer (according to our present understanding of neural function) is no.

The proof is in the pudding.

You can say that again ;^)

I started to read this thread as another rant-vs-rant and almost quit reading early. Personally, I am a big proponent of being consciously aware and responsible for shot sequence and results. I consider all shots, good and bad as 100% my fault. So why not quit reading since I knew where my vote stood. I kept reading because I liked the helpful intent of the initial thread entry and wanted to see where it would go. I went through highs and lows while reading and found myself entertained by how counterpoints were waged and handled. One can say that mine-is-bigger-than-yours is childish but no more than always being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. All in all, this was a very entertaining thread and I think helpful to neophytes who got to see that results may not speak louder than words but they certainly back-up words more than a disappearing act. Thanks to the moderators for not blocking this thread. In this case, I think a little confrontation was a good thing and helped us all judge the veracity of the words we read on this thread.

I agree Budly.Big words impress me and make me tingly too.:)

Too complicated for me. About 50 years ago, when I was very young, I just started shooting my bow. Not sure how I did it but eventually I got pretty good at killing game. Was fortunate enough to shoot a stickbow for last 49 years. Simple minded, but coupled with my stalking and hunting skills I sure piled up the deer, bear and other game. Don't know how I did it, no words can describe it except pick a spot and shoot. Never reference a thing, or see my arrow. It must all be only a dream.

JJ, you do see the arrow, you simply don't consciously acknowledge it. Don't change a thing in what you are doing as long as you are happy with your results.

I started reading this and then I decided to just keep doing what I'm doing to get my arrow to where it's going. I wonder if the Native American people knew all this stuff. :^)

I wonder what else I see, that I never really see?

It is no wonder so many get target panic, maybe they are seeing things their mind never acknowledges they see, how frustrating. I would panic too!

"I started reading this and then I decided to just keep doing what I'm doing to get my arrow to where it's going. I wonder if the Native American people knew all this stuff. :^)"

Since the arrow was in front of their nose literally, I bet they were not that pure instinctive as some think - at least in the beginning.

I have shooting and obsessed since I was younger than I can remember, well over 60 years, but I learnt sumthin' all over again. I wanted to shoot more fluid left handed, hit anchor keep pulling through the release with no hold at all. My tendency both right handed and left handed is about a minimum of a 1/2 second hold. I do not achieve a hard shot with a consistent anchor and shooting completely fluid by anchoring with false draws and let downs or any other static trick. To achieve a totally fluid completely full draw, I needed to achieve the complete fluid shot by practicing the shot in its fully fluid state. DAH Sounds simple, it looks simple, it is not, but repetition is a wonderful thing, it can be achieved with a few practice sessions working on just the one thing. The hazard for many is when things get fluid they also tend to get short or incomplete. Don't change the fluid part, work on intentionally not getting short and incomplete. I do not expect people with target ingrained methods to agree, that is okay. Just as there is a mechanical step by step process to static shooting, fluid shooting has it own refined processes. i got caught in the middle for a bit, bringing back some of my old target shooting stuff and mixing it into my longbow shooting goals. It all started with my left hand draw being 1/4" shorter than my right hand draw. Sometimes the hamster has to get out and away from the tredwheel, just to objectively see where the hell he was going for that last 5 miles.

You can get away without a taught shot sequence and still be very accurate.

What a shot sequence does more than anything is give the Archer consistency, it's almost an essential skill in tourney archery where a lot of arrows are shot, specially at longer distances.

A shot sequence will be a tremendous help in tourney and do the hunter no harm.

All that really matters is, you hit what you aim at and are happy with whatever accuracy skill level you're at. No them and us, just US Archers

Iv'e taken 2 breaks trying dump bad habits in my shot. Stayed away from my bow and online temptations (wall and gear).

Wanted to bird hunt and focus on small game, now that I strung my bow last weekend and watched Jeffer's YouTube about 100 times the arrows are hitting ok.

Yes a new shot is coming from this and that arrow hitting target is good but the new to me shot, old to Jeffer, is the goal! Aim small miss small plus sequence but the fun trumps all.

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