My understanding is a lot of bowyers are moving away from smooth on. As it was explained to be the newer stuff is much easier to work with and more forgiving.
Much easier than Smooth On? What's it do... glue things all by itself while you're sleeping?
I never found Smooth On to be difficult or cumbersome to work with, or unforgiving... not in the least. In fact, I've found it considerably more variable and forgiving than most of the other glues I've used, and so reliable, I may take it for granted. Smooth On has never failed me, not once.
It's going to take one HECK of a glue to convince me to throw my Smooth On away, and considering the fact that I've never even heard of Huntsman glue before? I'm not even going to bother Googling it.
The main reason that Huntsman is getting more attention lately is because there were some bad batches of Smooth On produced and distributed within the last year or so.
There's nothing worse than building a bow and having it delaminate due to faulty epoxy.
Justin is correct, Black Widow uses Huntsman (and has for a long time). I think they use it because they've found it to be a superior product.
I believe that some other larger bow manufacturers also use it, but I can't confirm which ones.
The main reason that it has not been discussed much until recently is because it is only available in 5 gallon (or larger units), which makes it cost prohibitive for most small time bowyers.
However, Mike at Rosewood Archery now offers it in smaller quantities for those who want a superior epoxy.
At this point, I haven't made a bow in over a year, but when I decide to resume making them (for my own personal use only), I will be using Huntsman.
Smooth on is great stuff, but was not aware that it had a shelf life. Correct me if i am wrong, but i think all epoxies have a shelf life, and used it not long ago for a tip repair on a friend,s recurve, and it did not cure.I think it was about 6 years old.Before that it had never failed me,but i was building lam bows and using it up fast.Glad i found that out on tip overlays, and not bow building.Just some thing to think about.
I can assume several million bows of fiberglass hav been laid up with Smooth On. I cant say Huntsman is good or no good, but Smooth On has an incredible track record to dispute.
I understand where you're coming from, and to a certain extent you are correct, however there's a lot more cost and liability when you have a bow come apart than when the feathers fall off your arrow.
And ironically, I bought and used the Fletchtite Platinum shortly after it came out.
I'm one of those guys that had my feathers fall off, and as a result I wouldn't buy anymore of it...lol
I just wouldn't be able to trust it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me...lol
For those of you who like Smooth On and have never had any issues with it, by all means keep on using it because it doesn't make nickel's difference to me who uses what.
I'm just trying to pass along some info that might help shed a little light on the subject. ;^)
I've used Smooth On for a long time and haven't had too many issues with it, however, I'm always interested in using better quality materials when they are available, and from all that I've gathered, Huntsman is an overall better product.
It just wasn't available to us before due to the minimum purchase quantity, and now that it's available in smaller quantities, you will see more and more guys using it in the future. Myself included.
Recurve crafter, have you had it fail on you personally? It is one thing to go on a failure you have had, and another for a failure someone else claims to have had.
Moving on. People blather on about superior products, and bad batches. That is still down to you if you don't have actual technical criteria, and test every batch you get. Otherwise I am just as inclined to believe that the end user did a bad mix along the line. It happens. Though it wouldn't explain multiple successive failures. Contamination could, though.
If you got a bad batch, how did that get past you. It is more important to have standards and keep to them than to chase the latest wonder glue, particularly if part of the argument is that all the glues are at base the same. That isn't true, but seems to be something epoxy users have fixated on if they ever came across Epon.
Speaking on behalf of three bowyers here in Australia with many years of experience and virtually no delaminating issues until the last year or so, when all our procedures which had given us excellent service suddenly had serious delam. issues. These had the appearance of a " dry joint" although I can assure one and all thus was not an application failure.Emails to Smooth on got absolutely no satisfaction in any way except for a last email which stated blandly issue resolved!!!! No accompanying tech. sheet or reason just that! I have been very reluctant to change epoxy mainly for the longer potlife Smooth on has over some others but with these failures, reputation and sanity might necessitate such a change.
No Tim, I was very fortunate because the bad batch of Smooth On was circulated about a year after I bought my final 2 gallons.
And then I closed my bow making business about the same time the bad batch was being distributed, so I was very lucky to avoid purchasing any bad Smooth On, but that doesn't mean that a bad batch wasn't produced, and that it didn't effect others.
It's not just a coincidence when you start noticing several different experienced bowmakers start posting that they are having issues with their bows delaminating when they are doing nothing different than they were before.
Even though I'm not making bows professionally anymore, I do stay in the loop on what's going on in the industry and Mike at Rosewood Archery has been very good at keeping us informed (on tradarchers.net) about some of the issues that are being reported to him.
Mike supplies a lot of bowyers (both professional and hobbyist), and he gets direct feedback when issues like this happen with products.
Take it for what it's worth, but here's part of a statement that he posted back in March of this year (on tradarchers)...
"If you ever ask yourself what the large companies are using, it is not smooth on, but a product called Huntsman TDR 1100-11, a thinner, less stiff product than smooth on.
The large archery, ski, skate board, sail board manufacturers have used this successfully for many years, if you question the validity of this statement, call Toby or Roger at Black Widow and ask them if they have had epoxy problems.
This industrial product is mixed by weight, not volume. The ratio is 2.5/1, resin to hardener, and commercially sold in 5 gallon pails.
This product is typically applied with a lint free roller, this is what I have seen used.
Rosewood Archery is now repackaging fresh new batches, nothing more than 6 weeks old into quart and pint containers for bowyers only. The prices are very similar to smooth on with consistent, predictable results."
that is very interesting, recurve crafter.I will have to investigate. Does any one have any information on expected potlife? I understand that ambient temperatures play a big part in this but our climate here is sub tropical.
Received call number 2 this week of glue issues. This time it was a 52lb longbow and 26lb matching longbow, father/daughter matching set. 26lb came apart in daughters face. The problem with this problem is that too many bowyers feel their reputation and potential sales/RECALL are at risk by calling out the bad batches of smooth on being distributed across this country and abroad. I understand it is hard to share information about delamination publicly, but turns out I am not only a wealth of information regarding horror stories for all this crap, but also the reseller of an alternative better product. Keep you liability insurance up to date. Keep in mind one major difference between Huntsman and Smooth on are, Huntsman is a manufacturer of epoxies, Smooth on is a reseller. Mike
I made between 4000 and 5000 kids and adult longbows with Smooth On epoxy over more than 30 years in all types of humidity conditions, using wood that was dry, but not “pre cooked” in the oven before gluing. I had few if any glue failures.
Then about 2 years ago, I had a new batch of Smooth On that produced an almost 100% failure rate for bows over 30# pull. I had to trash or replace more than 30 bows. I sent the remaining glue and broken bow samples back to Smooth On. They claimed the glue met their specs, and the bows failed because of moisture in the wood. As I said, I made my bows under the same conditions as I had for 30 years without failure.
I have since ground laminations on the same day as I glue, and put the wood in the oven for 3 hours before gluing. I haven’t had a delam since, but have been using new batches of Smooth On.
I would be interested in trying a different epoxy.
I think I dodged a bullet on the bad batches. I have enough proven good ea40 on hand for maybe five bows and I think I'll simply have to try the Huntsman next time around.
One thin I know is that you can trust Mike at Rosewood.
I've been using System 3 for quite a while. Never had an issue with it. Last glue up I did was with T-88. It worked just fine. However, it's too thick for my liking for gluing up bows.
I don't know about system 3, but I have tried T-88 on a few bows (several years ago) and I had several of them delaminate with no warning.
The reason I wanted to try it was because the tech data appeared to be better on paper than smooth on, but unfortunately I didn't find it to be sutible for bows after a few of them came apart.
I weighed the epoxy accurately, and mixed it thoroughly, so I don't believe it was user error.
The only reason I even bring this up is to caution anyone that decides to use epoxies that aren't specifically formulated for our application.
Not all epoxies are created equally, and not all will hold up in a bow even if they look good on paper.
Ironically, the failures I had with T-88 were wood to wood (laminated recurve risers), and wood to phenolic (also laminated recurve risers).
I still have two or three personal bows with T-88 that have held up over the past ten or so years, but they haven't been used a lot, and I wouldn't trust them enough to sell them to anyone.
Again, I'm just passing along my experience so that others might avoid wasting time and materials, or worse... getting themselves (or someone else) injured from flying bow shrapnel.
Both manufactures make many products. It's a matter of choosing the correct one for your application. If you like big gaps and rough glueing surfaces, EA-40 is a good choice. It's Epoxamite with a crap-load of fumed silica to make it pasty. G-2 also is good for big gap joints. Huntsman makes a lot of products for other "formulators" If you are willing to break from tradition and create tighter glueing surfaces, you can use most any epoxy with a cps of 600 or more.
A greeting to every body from Rome in Italy. I'm a knives & bow maker (www.architradizionali.it) and I want to let you know that we also have big problems with smooth on glue. For years we have used this glue successfully but the latest supplies have been a disaster! I am not a chemist but the hardener is not the same, this one has a different color and odor than the one sold until 2 years ago. This must be said to be fair to those who work hours and hours to carry out a project.
Take a look at "West Systems G-flex" I know several bowyers that are using it and really like it. It does not require a heat box and the company says it will even set up under water. I've used it on a couple of bows and really like it.
I'd have reservations using a G Flex because it's extreme softness (see attached video).
I'm sure it works for bows, but ideally you don't really want a "flexible" epoxy for the dynamics of a laminated bow limb. Ideally you want something a little more rigid.
The flexible properties G Flex would likely produce slightly slower limb recovery, and make the laminations more prone to glue creep over time.
I'd be interested in Mr. Hatfields thoughts on it.
Have any of you guys that use G Flex and other epoxies (like smooth on or huntsman) compared how much spring back off of the form your bow blanks have with the G Flex versus other epoxies?
I would venture to guess that the G Flex probably has a little more spring back off the form, which means that you're leaving some performance on the table right off of the form.
Not to mention, potentially more deflection/set over time from use.
I originally started using alternatives to Smooth-On after talking to Jim Fetrow. He wasn't a fan of Smooth-On. He built quite a number of pretty elaborate designs without any issues.
I have in the past had less than satisfactory results with Smooth-On.
An alternative to the tdr 1100 could be the AW 106, always Araldite. It is considered excellent for general purposes. This can be found in smaller cans. Does anyone have experience with this?
I use exclusively smooth on and don't anticipate changing any time soon. It is easy to work with and have never had a failure that could be verified as a possible glue issue.
Moisture in wood is a funny thing and create many problems that are blamed on oils in the wood or glue failures. Not saying this is what all problems encountered in bow building, but a vast majority.
I'm not against trying new products and a while back obtained a quart of huntsman from Toby at BW. Didn't care for the thinness, but it worked. Only used it to glue up a few risers and discarded the rest. Toby had mentioned that it was likly prone to causing the small foamy like airbubles that occur under glass from "gassing" more so than the smooth on due to the thinner viscosity.
Never, never had a problem with Smooth On. I trust it. I even had a rep from Smooth On stop by my house, to show me some products, they thought I was an actual business because of how much I order! Have to say he got a laugh out of that one.
I glued up thousands of bows with smooth on for over 20 years with no problems. Then I had a 2 gallon batch that I glued almost 40 bows with before I started grinding them out. I had some bows delaminates while tillering, and others that I had already shipped delaminated after being shot for a week to several months. Some bows would come apart after being strung overnight.
I sent the remaining glue to smoothon and they said it passed their tests. I hadn’t changed a thing in my glue ups. They said it was caused by too much moisture in the wood. My laminations were made from old, dry stock. I cooked the blanks for 4 hours at 160 degrees F. This was about 2 years ago. I’ve had a couple bows go this year, but I think they were left over from the bad batch.
I really don’t trust smooth on like I used to. I go to great lengths to insure my lams are clean and dry. I grind the wood the same day, or the day before gluing. I clean everything well and put in the over for 3 hours at 160 degrees to drive out any moisture, and apply the glue while still warm.
I honestly don’t thing smooth on is quite as strong as it once was. I’ve tested cut offs that came apart without destroying the wood. That never happened before. I intend to look into the Huntsman glue myself.
I glued up thousands of bows with smooth on for over 20 years with no problems. Then I had a 2 gallon batch that I glued almost 40 bows with before I started grinding them out. I had some bows delaminates while tillering, and others that I had already shipped delaminated after being shot for a week to several months. Some bows would come apart after being strung overnight.
I sent the remaining glue to smoothon and they said it passed their tests. I hadn’t changed a thing in my glue ups. They said it was caused by too much moisture in the wood. My laminations were made from old, dry stock. I cooked the blanks for 4 hours at 160 degrees F. This was about 2 years ago. I’ve had a couple bows go this year, but I think they were left over from the bad batch.
I really don’t trust smooth on like I used to. I go to great lengths to insure my lams are clean and dry. I grind the wood the same day, or the day before gluing. I clean everything well and put in the over for 3 hours at 160 degrees to drive out any moisture, and apply the glue while still warm.
I honestly don’t thing smooth on is quite as strong as it once was. I’ve tested cut offs that came apart without destroying the wood. That never happened before. I intend to look into the Huntsman glue myself.
I do not believe that this is a challenge to those who have the truth. There are bowmakers in the USA and others in Europe who have had bad experiences with the smooth-on purchased in the last two years. Now we are saying that it is difficult to continue to give confidence to those who have betrayed by losing hours of hard work. Could the smooth-on issue defective batches? We do not know. Surely it is not correct for the smooth to answer that everything is normal when we know very well that something has changed. Here we are not talking about fantasies of beginnere bowmaker but people who work with bows to live on. If the smooth-on can be said to be the fault of faulty lots and now the problem is solved, I would be happy to use it again.
Yes, their lack of integrity is the biggest concern.
Things happen and faulty products are produced sometimes. That can and does happen to any company. That's not the issue here.
How they handled the situation is the real problem.
It's one thing to have a bad batch of epoxy in circulation, but it's totally another do deny that there were any problems with the product.
Smooth On was just trying to avoid the responsibility and liability of the situation, which could potentially be huge.
It's easier for them to sweep it under the rug and blame the issue on how the bowyers were using the product. Many of which were not inexperienced amateurs.
For Smooth On to tell those effected bowyers that it was their fault is just insult added to injury.
A recall should have been issued and lot numbers should have been provided for the bad batches of epoxy.
That would have been the right thing to do.
Instead, they ruined they're reputation and customer confidence for the bow makers that were effected.
If in fact there was a "bad batch", doesn't mean that the glue itself didn't perform to within their specs. EA 40 is not made specifically for building bows. So if during testing, it held up to their criteria, then who's to say they handled it badly.
In fairness, i don't know any side of this story other than heresay. As bowyers, we are just a tiny group of customers in the melting pot. I have heard of no more than a half a dozzen people having issues with it. I doubt that equates to a batch.
Who's to say huntsman hasn't experienced the same issue. However in our industry, there are so few using it that chances are probably slim.
I would never consider using a product simply because it is cheaper. BIgJim
I switched to Huntsmans about a year and half ago. No problems no intentions of going back to smooth at this time. I too had a run where I experienced some delam issues
I had some trouble with two bow's i had built about 2-3 year's ago. I spoke with several bowyer friends who had mentioned they had experienced the exact same problem i experienced. It's possible to get some bad product with anything,but i have no plans on switching glue. I still have completed confidence in Smooth On,as I'm sure many Bowyer's do.
EA40 smooth on is formulated as a casting epoxy. It happens to have good characteristics for bow building. Especially good for filling gaps. However it is NOT a strong epoxy. It has a high percentage of fillers and lower percentage of resin. I’ve used it for over 30 years, and as I said before, it always performed well on my bows, until a couple years ago. These were absolutely glue failures. The laminations had glue on all surfaces, but came apart at the glue line. There was no tearing of wood fibers, like you get in a good glue joint. You could literally peel the glass off the wood in one piece. My forms, air pressure, and oven temperatures were the same as always. The failures occurred in every bow I made with that glue over 20# pull weight. Several different models, wood types and weights. The glue company said it was my fault, somehow.
The Huntsman TDR 1100-11 epoxy is formulated especially for composite laminated bows. The strength specs are much higher than the EA40. I’ve ordered some and will do some severe strength testing with it before I use it in customers bows.
I’ve glued several bows with the Huntsman. It is a little harder to use than smooth on. The bow parts need to fit perfectly, because Huntsman will not fill gaps as well as smooth on. It is, however, much stronger than smooth on. It’s nearly impossible to break the wood and glass apart.
I think the Huntsman is a superior glue for laminated bows. It won’t let you get away with poor fitting parts and forms, however.
I just got a hold of some Huntsman TDR 1100-11 epoxy but I have never used it before. Anyone know of the proper cure time and temp. Should I run it through my bow oven like I would smooth-on or does it require a longer or shorter cure time? I tried to get a hold of the manufacturer to ask about its properties but the lady I spoke with just transferred me to a answering machine.
SL, I have been using Huntsmans for a couple of years. I cure it in my hotbox just like I did with Epon Versimd back before Binghams began carrying smooth on. No problems or complaints so far.
Bowbaker, I appreciate the feed back. I am new to bow building, so I am not familiar with Epon. I have only used Smooth-on and G2. With Smooth-on I just cook it for 4 hours and then shut it off. With the G2 someone suggested a 2 hour cycle. I guess my concern is over doing it with this epoxy. I'd like to eventually switch over to using heat strips instead of this giant oven, but as I mentioned before I am new to this and still trying to learn and source the right equipment and figure out what works best for what I am trying to accomplish.
SL I have thought about heat strips too. But the hot box has served me well and I just don't really need to save that much time. So probably stick with the hot box.
"I use exclusively smooth on and don't anticipate changing any time soon. It is easy to work with and have never had a failure that could be verified as a possible glue issue. Moisture in wood is a funny thing and create many problems that are blamed on oils in the wood or glue failures. Not saying this is what all problems encountered in bow building, but a vast majority.
I'm not against trying new products and a while back obtained a quart of huntsman from Toby at BW. Didn't care for the thinness, but it worked. Only used it to glue up a few risers and discarded the rest. Toby had mentioned that it was likly prone to causing the small foamy like airbubles that occur under glass from "gassing" more so than the smooth on due to the thinner viscosity.
Not had an issue...don't plan on changing. BigJim"
My story is the same as Big Jims. I too got a quart of the huntsman and used it on laminating riser blocks, and tried a couple sets of limbs with it too. I did not care for the thinner viscosity and prefer the EA40 to work with....
If i were to change over to that product, i think I would grind my limb laminations with finer grit sand paper than the 36-40 grit i've always used. I think this would work better with thinner viscosity glue application.
I like huntsman had just bought some to try. Good stuff. Thinner easier to spread, I still use the same putty knife but wets out well, less waste for me and less squirting out when pressed. Smooth on has been fine but I like working with huntsman better so far. For any gap filling I’d use smooth on.
I've been told that if you degass the huntsman before using it that it will help with the air bubbles that form between glass and veneer. I already have vacuum chambers so this wouldn't be a big deal, just don't see any advantage.
To me, it's kind of like driving a nail with a hammer or an anvil... The hammer does a great job and always has. Pick it up, swing it a few times and the job is done. Easy, reliable, never a worry. The anvil will likely drive the nail as well.. but one would likely need help lifting, aligning and dropping precisely or it would create more issues than it's solving.
when the nail is successfully driven, no one will ever be able to tell if it was done with an anvil or a hammer or be able to appreciate all the extra effort the anvil required with no benefit.
Ive used a couple of different glues and smooth on is still the best and I have never had any trouble with it . Lots of other things can be blamed on the glue .
