90% of my wild turkey poults got desimated and my doe group has no fawns..!!!...bad year for my area....war is on....that's all I hear late night are yote meetings..!....I'm shooting every one I get chance at legally..!

yep they can do a lot of damage if not controlled They can ruin an area

especially when they out number the deer

They do one thing right...they decimated the red squirrel population around here.

Good luck. They are slick.

Good Luck, I recommend a AR 15 rigged with a TLR 8 Crimson Trace Laser/Light and night hunt if it's legal in your area. They are extremely tough to hunt and kill even with every advantage.

If you’re worried about turkey poults you got a lot more to worry bout than coyotes like coons, skunks, possum, Fox, bobcat, snakes, and one no one ever mentions or seems to think about but birds of prey. I mentor for the NWTF. Before a hunt we often do seminars. We have a turkey biologist do so. After one such seminar I asked him after seeing hawks swoop down for poults. The hens actually ran the poults into a field edge and took flight after the hawks. Anyway the biologist told me one year they radio collared 90 hens. Most laid eggs but none reached any age. There was a drought that year and all the nests seemed concentrated by water. Owls were there and he told me picked most off. I guess it was an early morning thing. Idk. The weather too has much to do w turkey numbers. Rough winters take their toll on adult birds, wet springs are off of death w poults. That being said I’d kill all the coyotes I could. Better yet, I personally snare em. They get caught/killed while I’m working. All in all a good deal cause they’re everywhere round here

I recommend traps

they are wiley

Pat, Pat, Pat. Coyotes are like that. A few square mile area can get ran over and surrounding areas can be mild. If a person owns the right piece of ground and the yotes have all they need and want, they stay. Good dens, good food, good cover/protection and water. My buddy owns a few hundred acres in southern Indiana. He raises goats in pastures and lots of them. I spent a few falls hunting with him and have never in my life heard so many yotes in all directions and close by. It was almost spooky. Why? Because Joe has goats of all sizes to snack on, big ravines all over and plenty of cover to hide and den up. He and his brother can snare several per week all year and not even put a dent in them. ts not always as black and white as it may seem. And yes, some people simply hate coyotes for their own reasons, but some simply need them gone.

Bow guy hit the nail on the head. I am an environmental biologist and studied mammalogy and wildlife ecology in school. Coyote populations have a direct correlation to environmental fitness, they can tell you much about an area. Populations ebb and flow based on prey and weather, but prey have more of a control on predators than most people think. Coyotes keep most prey populations healthy and fit; the more coyotes the better the productivity of the environment. What most people fail to recognize is that without proper predator pressures, prey typically overstress an environment. Whitetail deer will almost destroy habitat if they are unchecked. Rabbits will do the same. Turkeys, however, are controlled by weather more than any other factor. In the end, I say shoot them all and have fun doing it. We can’t touch their populations typically, unless they reintroduced a bounty. My grandma tells me about how well she could stitch up the notch in a coyote ear, just so they could collect for it again in the next county over.

No, but they try. And that’s enough for most folks I know.

smartest animal in the woods,i own about 170 acres and have a great deer and hog pop I kill everyone I see which aint many lol killed 6 in 2017 with a rifle catch a few in leg hold traps every year I really want to be able to kill a lot more but it's gonna take a lot of work might eventually have to invest in a night vision scope but most cost as much as a truck for me.i used to see does with twin fawns then one fawn now I see nothing but groups of mature does we also have some big cats

X2 on traps. A neighbor who raises sheep has snared over 100 in a decade and only shot a handful even though he totes a rifle in his truck and has some open land.

Worst thing that's happened to him ever, I gotta say, was a domestic dog that killed 19 lambs in one night. Border collie cross.

i'm interested in snaring them but don't want to catch game animals any idea's?

Maybe I should change my handle from (songdog) to something else. I feel nervous around you guys,lol.

My last year of firearm deer hunting in Wisconsin was my best...about 12 years ago.

Never saw a deer...killed 4 yotes.

I do a lot of smoking (cooking...lol), and light up my pit for brisket around midnight. Especially for winter cooks, after a couple hours the usual two packs in my area go nuts! One group a short ways south-west, and a 2nd off to the north. I've no idea how many start yipping and howling, but it's a LOT!

"Any kill on a coyote is legal in my opinion . Just yes caution when shooting them in parks and school zones"

I have a strict "no shooting during recess" policy.

Coyotes have litters of pups to feed right now and families like that are extremely hard on game now.

I've interrupted two coyote stalks on antelope fawns recently.In a month,that group of 9 doe antelope went from 9 fawns to 3.Coyotes are effecient and right now,the grass is higher than it's been in over 2 decades and they are taking advantage of it.

In the Winter,they take adult antelope regularly.

I'm a predator trapper and trapping is good but to expect to put a dent in their numbers,you need to trap,snare,call and shoot-year round.

When I'm trapping,I have no time for hunting.You also need an experienced coyote trapper if you are going that route.The best way to protect fawns is to start taking yotes from their breeding season,up to fawning time.The coyotes are getting real territorial then and establishing and defending denning areas.Taking out these adult pairs before fawning,disrupts the whole system and lets some fawns survive

Coyotes are the smartest critter You will ever go against Theyhave been shot, trapped, snared, poisoned. Shot with helicopters, night scopes, run by dogs,shot on sight for 100 years. Yet they keep increasing their numbers. Have fun, shoot everyone,every time. Trap or better yet get a professional. They will still be around but a lot more cautious. Arrowchucker out

I see now that you are in Mass.Trapping is out.Shoot all you can.

Turkey populations vary mostly with weather.Black bears are significant fawn predators here now also.The lowly coyotes gets blamed for alot of things they don't do along with the stuff they do.I always heard coyote populations increase when prey species increase.Ive heard they have smaller litters in tough times.

NEVER SAW OR HEARD ONE IN KY IN THE 60’S. They are on the farm now. Out here we we shoot many. Have a roundup inElko in February, they kill a couple hundred

Two. Years ago during elk season we watched 7 running something in a draw about a half mile from us. 7 is hard to run from

The farmers in Pa. hated them until they started eating groundhogs. Now not so much. I got four together hunting on my trail camera last year where I hunt and didn't see a groundhog and very few deer all year. Was going to try a predator call but never got around to it.

I live in Hermitage, we've seen them in the Walmart parking lot. There is a lot of deer and squirrels in town plus cats. Ive tried shooting a couple with my bow but their fast, got one shot at a big blonde male and by the time my arrow got there he was in the next county.

We used to drives and kill 3 or 4 a day. They never failed to repopulate. On our new farm the tradtion seems every first day of turkey season, i shoot a coyote. My largest one was @50#. I posted it here once, but because i had a rifle in the photo it was understandably removed. Shoot every one you can legally or otherwise.

This year has been prolific when it comes to all game around here. The rains lasted clean into July and the chipmunks, squirrels, rabbits, etc., are producing like never before...well, never before for a while. As prey increases, it seems predators supply more predators...it's how nature works.

You can hunt coyotes all you like but you won't dent the population overall...study their biology. Around the east, our coyotes are what they call coy-wolf that originated in eastern Canada...and yes it's a crossbreed between coyote and gray wolf And yes again, DNA shows that to be a fact, so they can interbreed when nature calls for it.

In our immediate area there seems to be plenty of game the past couple years, including the lowly mice species which is by far the biggest contributor to the coyote diet. We also have coyotes out the kazoo but seem to have a pretty good balance. As for turkey poults, many of the eggs never age into poults with skunks and foxes being the biggest issue. Add to that we have Fisher now as well, and some big ones at that. Add to that we have lost about 20% of our human hunting populations through attrition, so the predators have less and less control monitors on them.

Still, I'm not seeing the dire consequences that coyotes supposedly cause. What I do see is less feral cats, less carion along the back roads ...scavanging adds quite a bit to the coyote diet. That said, I don't want one as a pet and don't have a problem with folks hunting and trapping them...that keeps everything healthy. Just don't be putting out poison...that can mess up an environment more than a thousand coyotes.

Fun pets JK

Kill`em all. Hate them darn things.

Use cable restraints or leg hold traps and not snares on them. The snares kill, and you don't want to kill everything that gets caught. Restraints and leg hold traps you can release the critters that you are not targeting.

I have been using the humane foot snare from thesnareshop.com.

I live within sight of neighbors and I do not want to catch and injure or kill the neighbor kids dog. This one allows me to take out the coyotes and release the neighbor's dog without harm should I catch it. (I have not caught there dog yet.) On the down side, if a coon or opossum or bobcat trip it, the foot snare does not choke down tight enough to hold them. I have had plenty of false trips by coons (trail cam pics confirmed) but when it is a coyote, they are there in the morning when I show up!

Here is one that I got a while back. (He is a little stiff in the picture) but as you can see, I can run this trap and not have to worry about my dog.

Just some observations. We live on 14 acres and share one boundry fence with a 6000- acre State Park. We bottle fed orphaned fawns from 2004 to 2012/14 and have one doe remaining around the house from the class of 2005. She has produced twin fawns from the spring of 2006 on. We have a regular deer herd hanging around the house and adjacent woods. We also have a good crop of turkeys.

We have seen a marked decrease in fawn and poults in the last few years. Just a few years ago we would see two or three hens combine their poults into one big flock, maybe thirty birds.

Does would almost always have twins. Summer was full of fawn sightings.

This year and last very few poults. One group of three with a hen is all I have seen all spring and summer so far. A few twin fawns earlier but none observed in the last month.

Earlier this spring we had one hen obviously sick that I put down .

I don't know what it is that is hammering my poults and fawns but I would like it gone.

Sorry guys. I cannot get the picture to load for the post above.

Guy hears coyotes all the time... notices turkeys aren't as numerous. Decides to wage war on coyotes.... and a fine conservationist you will make. First step in the Marine Corps planning process... "understand the problem" - I don't feel like we've completely captured the turkey reduction issue with our current analysis.

Jarhead , first off thanks for your service...my fav Turkey a half bronze half white very rare had 5 poults ,, she was calling all day for them frantically,...all 5 killed one night, the other birds have none, down too three total poults in area..I've got 1000's of Deer pics and years of survey of my local deer group...my does that have triplets and twins every year...now have zero fawns,...and I hear yote parties almost every night around 2am...I did the math...war is on....!

I do agree that other predators are involved...red and gray fox, bobcat, fisher cats, bear, etc etc.....still when I hear like ten different yotes light up late night for a party it's not hard too figure out..it's thick with yotes in New England.. especially north Central MA.

It seems to me that there isn’t a place where coyotes aren’t. They weren’t here in Chicagoland (suburbs) the entire time I was growing up. Never heard the word “coyote” until the 80’s, except on the cartoon with the Roadrunner. Now they’re everywhere in Illinois, including the downtown area in the city of Chicago. That’s what I call being able to adapt. They’re the ultimate scavenger/survivor.

https://youtu.be/o_LwNmUHK70

I harvested 25 yotes this year alone! Pelts are not worth a lot, but at least they do not go to waste. I know others think shot and let them rot, but in my right mind I cannot do that, no matter how much of a pest they can be. I heard they dropped timber rattlers some years ago in Southern Ohio to control turkeys?? IDK for sure, just heard it at the local taxidermy shop.

analysis complete...

As mentioned earlier, in my part of south-central Wisconsin we had no coyotes through the mid 80's. The Necadah federal refuge a couple hours north of me did. The locals called them "brush wolves" back then.

Once they established here they just blew up. I can't count the number of turkey setups I had blown by coyotes. Turns out, turkey decoys, a caller, and a sniper or two is quite effective.

A coworker's home farm is south of me and he had a neighbor place a trail cam on a den during pup season. They've got pics of that yote mom bringing home 12 fawns in one spring.

Yeah, they can be hell on em.

He left the den alone?

they put out rattle snakes in Pa also to thin the turkeys

Cable restraints are a poor tool as many coyotes break the cables and run off,wearing the cable.Educating coyotes is a poor way to control them.It's far better to use a real snare and put them down quickly.A breakaway device will allow the snare to release larger animals like deer or livestock,that get their feet in them.Snares set properly don't kill dogs because dogs don't f

Foot snares are a poor replacement for foot traps as well.They are more expensive and less effective than foot traps and the foot traps will not hurt dogs either.I would worry more about the thrower spring of a foot snare,cracking a dog.

I will add,if I'm doing predator control work,I definitely don't give coons a walk.

Again,coyotes can chew through cable.Cable and live coyotes are not a good thing.You are asking for trouble.

Just some thoughts from 57 years trapping predators.

Oh yeah Ohio has lots of great ideas. Take the invasive species like amur honey suckle, autumn olive-- they used to encourage planting this stuff. They spent a bundle of our tax dollars near nelson ille on, of all things a culvert built as a rattlesnake crossing--- brilliant!

All populations rise and fall based on environmental pressures, predator populations rise as prey peaks. As predators populations peak, prey populations fall off drastically until predators do the same. Then the cycle starts again. One has to realize two things here: 1- Many areas where turkey populations are drastically reduced by predation are typically areas that are not ideal habitat for turkeys to begin with. Turkeys can’t stay ahead of the trend. 2- Coyotes limit all prey populations equally. This means that they limit the productivity of other prey that require the same resources as turkeys. To a coyote, a raccoon makes a great meal, same as a turkey. In this case the coyote actually helps the turkeys in the area by removing competition or another potential predator.

rusty-are you joking or do you really think rattlesnakes thin turkey populations?

Naugh the spring rain and cold had nothing at all to contribute to this.

Keeping with your herd and clutches is required to elevate the abundance of yotes all along. Just not waiting to you thinking it was all yottes?

Clear some out maybe even trap them out. Or offer a trapper to come trap your bush.

There's many other predators that pray on birds you should know.

Never had a coyote touch a coon carcass-ever.

Yes, rattle snakes thin turkeys! They eat the eggs.

Sorry but they don't eat eggs.Black rat snakes do though.

LOL

I shoot em, I snare em, I stick em, each and everyone I see!

Trappers and predator hunters are important for control, and the development good game hunting. I urge landowners to allow credible trappers and predator hunters access.

This is interesting. Like a window into the mentality of extinction.

Good luck!

Missouri, I agree. I trap also, most fur trapped are animals that will cause problems when over populated in many ways. They are the cause of most of your game bird declines. Not to mention the diseases that right now are out of control in the eastern states. The anti-fur people can be blamed for all of that. Coyotes will cause large problems if not controlled.

John - you’re overlooking the fact that no predator EVER reached an “overpopulated” level without an overpopulated prey base. Ever.

And now after a generation or two of “hunters” have become dependent on food plots, feeders and access to very lightly pressured private land to fill their tags, people are wondering where the hell all of these coyotes have come from.

JMO, going to “war” against coyotes is just one more part of the shift from a Wildlife Conservation Ethic to a Deer Farmer business plan.

We Humans caused this problem. First, we nearly exterminated the Native prey base (through market hunting) and then when the Native predators shifted to domestic species as prey, we did our damnedest to exterminate the predators. Then we overprotected the wildlife and let them reach levels where an ecological catastrophe was imminent. And now it’s all-out deer farming because people who learned to “hunt” during the “stop the train-wreck” era are yearning for the Good Old Days of state-sponsored overpopulation and depopulation efforts.

Yep. Blame the coyotes for being smarter than we are.

I’m not sure I’d call the analysis “Complete” just yet.....

A friend of mine insists the quail population in Ohio plummeted because the turkeys were eating quail eggs....so the Ohio DNR was dropping rattlesnake eggs to kill the turkeys....

This was from an educated man!

I mentioned to him rattlesnakes give live birth...

4nolz@work. its not what i think its what the game commission thinks, they stocked the snakes thinking they would eat the turkey eggs and that would cut down the population

GF, yes you are correct about the predator/pray population fluctuations. But, generally the predator is fox or coyotes and the pray that fluctuates is rabbits. The problem is when the predator pop. goes up, it's not just the rabbit pop. that gets hurt. We used to have grouse all over in WI. The population fluctuates every 10 years. Since the yote population exploded and the anti-fur people started spewing there crap and the egg- eater populations grew, the grouse populations dropped. You bring up market hunting and things that happen'd years and years ago. Conservation does work if we can be allowed to do it.

GF, yes you are correct about the predator/pray population fluctuations. But, generally the predator is fox or coyotes and the pray that fluctuates is rabbits. The problem is when the predator pop. goes up, it's not just the rabbit pop. that gets hurt. We used to have grouse all over in WI. The population fluctuates every 10 years. Since the yote population exploded and the anti-fur people started spewing there crap and the egg- eater populations grew, the grouse populations dropped. You bring up market hunting and things that happen'd years and years ago. Conservation does work if we can be allowed to do it.

rusty-all due respect brother but is there an official site or something that supports that? I've never heard of any State stocking rattlesnakes.I certainly don't want to argue it to the point of hard feelings it just doesn't make sense

George D is this a Pennsylvania policy?

I can't but help click on this thread daily... we've officially jumped the shark...

4nolz@work, with all due respect , i don't care if you believe it or not

OK I guess you took offense sorry.Just looking for facts and not repeated online myths.Just keep repeating it, heck maybe its true.

Wouldn't a large black snake be better for eating eggs. I watched one climb a tree going straight up and into a hole about 15 feet off the ground. I've seen a few 8 footers but a lot more 4 to 6 foot long. My Grandpap had one in his barn for years and it was about 8 foot long. He used to pick it up and move it if it got in the way.

I've also heard that black snakes and rattlesnakes will use the same den. I use to see a lot of snakes but now I only see a couple a year.

I had a neighbor who was really scared of snakes so to help him with his phobia I bought about 50 rubber snakes. Poor fella was almost scared to walk in his yard. I really enjoyed watching him do his snake dance, man he could high step it.lol

For all the bluster I've heard about killing coyotes over the decades, I've seen darn few taken. Good luck in your war...even if it is likely misguided.

No sir, the PGC didn't stock rattlesnakes. People also claimed they stocked coyotes by the truckload. Rattlesnakes are protected, so they do expand when times are good, but in my over fifty years of being in the woods....a lot, I've never saw an adult rattlesnake, nor had my late father-in-law who lived to be 96 and hunted probably 90 of those years. Around here the raccoons, skunks and foxes play hell with the turkey eggs, and they are much more widespread then any rattlesnake.

Anyway, rattlesnakes prefer live game..that's why they have venom. It's unlikely they even bother turkey eggs, and if they do it would be more rare than an honest politician.

Jim B, not saying this is a main diet by any means, but they have been known to eat eggs. I am not a snake expert by any means, and do not want to be. Just what I have heard and read. I myself have seen a few in Ohio, but keep my distance from them. I do not kill them, for every living thing has its place and job.

Any wild animal that is of predatory nature, will also be an opportunistic predator. I don't think anyone is saying they positively won't eat turkey eggs, but factfully….through diet studies of live captured rattlesnakes, Penn State biologists have shown that over 90% of their diet consists of small rodents. Mainly because that is what is handy in their environment, and they're are built for that...like heat-seeking missiles. They also hunt mostly at night when the hens are sitting on the nests.

If you're looking for predators that have a 'significant impact' on eggs and poults, look for coons, skunks, weasels, minks and fisher (if you have them). The problem is people hate snakes, so they blame for everything. I have a pair of milk snakes, and a couple Eastern Ribbon snakes hanging around my house, garage and flower beds. They are welcome there as the chipmunk population exploded this year...along with the deer mice.

George is right. As usual. Much the same as coyote predation on raccoons. They are not their primary food source, just another critter that it will eat if the opportunity arises. Most raccoons eaten by coyotes are juveniles, adults are tough and have a low mortality rate. Disease typically kills adults. The problem is we have created an artificial environment without top predators to control the other smaller predators, or mesopredators. Unless humans fill that niche, there will continue to be an over abundance of all the egg eaters and whatnot. It doesn’t only harm turkeys, but all ground nesters.

If a rattler ate any kind of egg, it would die unless it could regurgitate it. If coyote populations grow faster than available food, they tend to bunch up, spread disease, and die off to levels that are supported by prey species. Coyotes can survive on all sorts of food, including fruits and vegetables, fresh or rotten. I live with coyotes on my range land and my home place. I allow only select ones at both places. Never have lost any kind of livestock to a coyote in all my years of ranching, nor did my father before me. Of course we never have fed dead calves to them either. My home coyotes have been with me for over ten years. My dogs know them and leave them alone, but will kill a strange one that comes onto my ranch. Coyotes here are very territorial, and will kill intruders on their range.

I've owned and spent a lot of time with timber rattlers and they don't eat eggs.There are always a lot of fables going around when the subject of snakes comes up.This is one.

George's list of egg eaters is spot on,with skunks and coons,often at the top.I would add black rat snakes in there somewhere as well.

Don't think many of you seen the yottes we have in NJ. They are super dogs breed with wolfs that are big like them and they are vicious.

Story goes Ins. company's had them introduced to cut down on the deer and bear.

They are like a wolf in some regards. We have several types in NJ.

In any event...I do not think anyone is wishing to totally eradicate predators, nor is it likely with todays regulations.

Predator hunters and trappers do a nice job of basic predator control of coyote, raccoons, possums, and the like. No trapper attempts to eradicate the source. Predator control should be welcomed by farmers, ranchers and those managing land for game.

Bull snakes are rough on game birds in Montana and Wyoming, I have witnessed that many times. Not eating eggs, but the young birds.

I have seen coyotes pouncing on and eating grass hoppers... they are very adaptable and savvy.

I shot a few when I was young and fur prices were high. But any more, out west here, I just live with them and enjoy their songs. In fact, the forest canopy, forest fires, winters, road kill in winter ranges, and blue tongue have more effect on our deer herds than coyotes ever have - could be different in the east where they are new and deer herds are fat. Where I own property, the wolves are beginning to push coyotes around a bit.

Go ahead and kill them if you can/or want - the weight of killing things is yours to own. But, OP - remember this... Coyotes will only have larger litters of pups and adapt to any pressure accordingly. Nature is an intelligent system... and frankly, it knows more than any of us do. You can push on one little piece (coyotes) of the web, but it is like pushing water and will not have the the effect that you intend or wish. All of our pushing and manipulating, and controlling - well - it never has and never will have the intended effect. That is my 2 cents.

Anyhow, do what you will, and good luck with your choices.

JW

Coyotes crossed the Mississippi in the late 60's and headed north and east. I never saw one here in Arkansas till the early 70's and then came the Armadillos.

Our Eastern Coyote is a hybrid, unlike the genetics of the western coyote. Folks for years said they bred with Gray Wolves and DNA tests shows that to be correct. Our coyotes back here can get pretty big. Balance is the key and nature takes care of it pretty well.

"If a rattler ate any kind of egg, it would die unless it could regurgitate it." In Arizona, I watched a Western Diamondback climb a Palo Verde tree and scarf 3 Phainopepla eggs. The snake did not look distresses afterwards, unlike the Bird. Don't think it was trying to commit suicide by egg.

I like canines.BUT like mosquitos and ticks something must be done about the coyotes.Can we poison them without endangering our population.NJ is highly populated but they are already a problem.There needs to be a campaign to take them down.~before they get a child.People in this area have more inclination to kill off the deer to suppress hunting and protect their flowers.

Coyotes are like dogs in a lot of ways, they multiply quickly and adapt to the areas they are in in just a few generations. Where I live in the city they are taking over, they have wiped out the raccoons and are decimating the pet cats. 1 or 2 yotes can cover a very large area and over the period of a year can kill a lot of prey. If you kill everyone you see you still won't keep the population under control.

Your plan to reduce coyote numbers by shooting them sounds fun. Trapping is more effective. Only way to rid yourself of them is to kill every living food source

Coyotes and cockroaches will be here after the bomb gets dropped.And Kevin Costner-he'll be here ;)

You forgot rats and crows.

MStyles - Love it and I'm stealing it!

me too! LOL

My poults and my does?

Interesting

I hear a pack yelping as I write this. They are out my bedroom window every single night going off. We still have out poults and fawns but its a matter of time. I will hesitate to shoot the yotes once season opens. Pelts need to be prime for me to get serjously interested in them though. They are EVERYWHERE here.

Elkpacker, that was fantastic..!

One coyote yipping and yodeling sounds like a pack except pack howls contain howling elements. Here's a video of one yipping. Yes, all the sounds you hear are from one coyote. Pack howling follows. I watch my home coyote do that when I'm baling and run out of twine. He comes up while I'm refilling and yips until I get back on the tractor.

https://youtu.be/bxDBuZ1KB0Q

Should be youtube. Take out the period between the u and b.

My home coyote. He hangs around where our yard meets a hay field, or in the yard when it's hot. He stays around 30-40 feet away, but follows me around and watches what I'm doing. I protect him and one female but kill any coyote I don't know that comes on the place, if my dogs don't kill it first.

oops, wrong picture.

Wow, my response to this thread was yanked. Well what the hey. It's about time to quite archery anyway. shoulder has gone bad from all those years back to when I was 7, so cancell my TT order delete from favorites and spend more time with my horses and packing. To help improve my shoulder I will pull out my pre 64-06 from the safe .

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