I’m currently trying to find the right arrow set up for my stalker. I’ve been bare shaft tuning and finally got the spine right. My question is that I’m shooting a 100 grain insert with 175 grain tip. When bare shafting it is “nose diving” so to speak. But my nocking point looks good with fletched arrows flight. Should I move my nock point down or leave it where it’s at? Thanks

You don't want to bare shaft tune, you want to bare shaft plane.

www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'. Especially note the broadhead tuning at the end.

Bowmania

Go look at my post on the thread called, "Nock High Questions".

Bowmania

move it were it shoots right for you

You have 275grs. on the point end, it is going to nose dive since a significant percentage of the weight is forward of the center of the shaft.

Bareshaft tuning is my go to. You didn't mention your bow weight, but 275 up front is a bit of a load and can certainly explain the nose diving out past 20 yards depending on your bows performance. Im not a fan of high foc, but then im shooting lighter set ups.

I shoot 300 gr up front out of a 57# longbow. Don't worry about some nosediving.

Goldtip 35/55s 31", 570gr arra weight. Will, and have, penetrated shield on a 250 pound boar into the opp shield.

I shoot a 160 gr head with a 75gr adaptor. I don't hunt Cape Buffalo but have taken a few quite large animals with 67# and 9.4gpp. My arrows tend to run 12-14% FOC, a well balanced arrow of suitable weight for the bow that kills what it hits. To me High FOC, unless hunting Rhino or Cape Buffalo is unnecessary and is either an attempt to maximize the potential of a marginal to inadequate hunting weight bow or covering unwillingness or inability to tune for a well balanced arrow.

Here is what I follow for tuning a bare shaft with high foc. Works well for me. http://www.tuffhead.com/education/tuning%20the%20efoc%20shaft.html

Per Bowmania it's not about whether the nocks are high or low, it's where the bare shafts impact relative to fletched, and where the fletched field points impact relative to broadheads (fletched of course)

THis is something I didn't believe until I was straightened out by, I hate to mention his name, Adcock. If you have two arrows that weight 500 grains. One has a 125 grain head and the other has a 300 grain head. Without doing any math we probably have 10ish% FOC on the 125 grain head and maybe 30% on the other arrow.

Shoot them both through a hooter shooter and they'll impact the same place. Both arrows know they weight 500 grains. They just don't know where the 500 grains is located.

The nosedive is in your set up not the arrow.

Bowmania

Bowmania...that's one theory I've never bought in to. Although I am familiar with O.L.'s research to a certain extent as well. Adn I typically agree with nearly everything you say.

And here is one example of why, and the analogy is very similar to arrows, traveling through air.

If you have 2 different sinking flylines. one is a level line meaning it is untapered, and that it every inch weighs the same, and a second flyline that is the same weight (let's say 750grs.) and it is a weight forward taper meaning that the majority of the weight is in the front end of the fly line. The weight forward line will indeed nose dive in the water, with the heavier front end of the line sinking at a faster rate than the line behind it.

That's one of the reasons that flyline manufacturers developed weight forward, uniform sink rate fly lines. So the line would sink closer to the same rate, over it's working length.

fly lines are not arrows, they have no fletch

I have heard the nosedive thing repeated time and time again but no one has ever showed any proof. In my own shooting I have never been able to tell any more nosedive one way or another when comparing high foc arrows with lower foc arrow of the same weight.

I just do not understand the quest for high foc! Get an arrow that flies good out of your bow and shoot it. Don’t worry about the foc, if the arrow is tuned it will work fine and you will have no problems with penetration.

MP

For me it is not a quest for FOC itself, but a quest to get to the arrow weight I want. It is easier for me to shoot a stiffer shaft and add point/insert weight than use a weaker shaft and have to use weight tubes.....and there is no downside to high FOC. You can argue whether or not the benefits are relevant, but there are no negatives as far as I'm concerned.

I don't buy the nose dive theory, gravity pulls the entire arrow down at a constant rate. Remember the hammer and feather dropped on the moon, both fell at same rate. The flyline theory adds a different medium and variables like bouyancy so not a good comparison.

Back on topic, tuning a very high foc for excellent flight works well with the link I posted. While you get a good tune with planing method a very high foc will impact same as fletched but can still be weak or stiff due to the amount of point weight holding the arrow on target. Getting the bare shaft to shoot straight down the line all the way to target gets a higher degree of tune. And this tune results in quicker stabilization and more retained energy. Of course your form needs to be at a decent level to repeat good bareshaft flight and this may be why some find it difficult to tune.

Anyone who has taken the time to map out the gaps with their bow should get what he means by nosediving. When i was shooting 13.5 gpp out of my bow the arrow dropped like a rock past 25 yards. At 10 gpp the arrow has a much more gradual trajectory out to 30. Overall arrow weight vs front end weight may or may not be a factor, but I'd definitely describe the trajectory of the heavy arrows as a nose dive past 25 yards. Just depends what you want to do with your bow--- inside 20, trajectory shouldn't be much of an issue. Farther out, a lighter arrow will give you more manageable gaps. Same priciple applies whether your shooting a rifle at long range or your bow at long range. An object us going to fall at a certain rate and the faster you can push it, the farther from you it will be when it lands.

400 grains up front having a total arrow wt of 612 gns has caused me no bare shaft plane tuning out to 40 yards.

Thanks for the the info guys. I’m shooting 52 lbs , arrow is cut to 27 3/4 and I’m drawing slightly over 27. When I meant nose dive it’s not drastic but it’s enough you can see it in flight and impact.

Was shooting the 400 gn up front arrow set-up using your identical draw wt and draw specs.

Have even shot the bare shaft for complete 3D rounds with respectable results...7.5+ average per target...just under 1 point per my typical average. Have even hooded a bare shaft to bare shaft with this set-up.

Therifleman, you could expect a heavier arrow to drop faster or "nosedive" if that is what you want to call it regardless of the amount of FOC it has.

The only useful or meaningful way to test the nose dive theory is by shooting arrows that have the same weight but different amounts of FOC. I myself have done this with carbon arrows that have a 300 grain point and aluminum arrows with a 145 grain point. Both weigh the same but have very different FOC. They also both hit the same spot on the target.

Thanks for sharing that data Birdy.

fdp, we do usually agree on everything.

As Longtrad mentions fly lines are not arrows. I know I could take a shooting taper and cast if farther than a level or WF, becuase the weight is in the taper. Plus I could cast a (who would ever buy a WF instead of a DT) weight forward further than a level, because there's more weight up front - opposite of nose dive.

Let me explain FOC for people who don't need it and don't see why. By example, which should make it easier to understand. I was going moose hunting with a 50 pound bow. Pentration very well could be a problem so I wanted to milk every ounce of energy I could out of my set up.

I used a heavy arrow. It's probably standard knowledge on every other site except here that a heavier arrow gets more energy out of a bow than a light arrow. LOL.

Then I wanted high FOC. Stupid example, but I think you'll get the point. THe wierdest arrow in the would has a point that weighs what a nock does and a nock that weights what a point does say 250 grains. It flys straight though. When that arrow impacts something there's tremendous flex in the shaft. That flex impedes penetration. Put that 250 grains where it should be and you've eliminated that flex.

Ashby has more specific info on penetration.

In fact the stiffness or speed of recovery is one of the reason why a carbon arrow will out penetrate wood or aluminum.

Not part of this conversation, but the other thing I did was switch from 5 inch feathers to 2 inch feathers. There's no reason to shoot anything longer unless you like slower and louder.

"My five inch feather make my arrow recover faster." Maybe if it's untuned. A well tuned bare shaft will recover just as fast as an arrow with 5 inch feathers. I should have said the same rate as.

Bowmania

Good information Birdy. For trajectory purposes, it sounds like your arrow shows that weight is weight whether throughout the entire arrow or at the point end.

After shooting heavier arrows relative to my bow weight, I have moved into a lighter arrow---still 10gpp. It gives me a better arc at the 3d targets and should still be plenty of weight for whitetails---the biggest game I plan to hunt.

I don't take shots at deer past 20 yards---the area I hunt is brushy and my shooting ability ranges from clean to brushy (lol). So from a trajectory standpoint I could live with a heavier arrow for hunting, but I think that the middleground may give me the best in penetration and forgiveness if shooting farther. I think there is a point when arrow weight increases or decreases that there are diminishing returns---but I have much to learn on this subject.

O.K. may I add my 2¢. FDP my friend, the flaw in the sinking fly line--it is not being propelled.Buoyancy has nothing to do with propulsion. As stated it will make a difference in casting if the weight is forward (propulsion). Also as stated weight is weight. With all due respect Rifleman,your heavier arrow will drop faster. It is also going slower to start with. We tend to think heavier point heavier arrow but not necessarily true there are other components. With more FOC weight a heavier point with a lighter shaft so the 2 arrows weigh the same will fly the same. Weight to the rear instead of FOC will flex the shaft more on impact. Guess what that does. So many confuse the GPI=grains per inch of shaft with GPP= Grains Per Pound= total weight of arrow in relation to the bow draw weight in pounds.Todd has given the facts several times. Maybe a little different way of explaining will help.Hope I didn't add to the confusion. Sometimes it is more fun just to shoot.>>>--->Ken

Ken, i believe i was indicating that i understood that the heavier arrow drops faster. My point was that i went to a lighter arrow to obtain benefits of a flatter trajectory.

My 13+gpp arrows dropped very quickly after 20+ yards. This is why i dropped back to @ 10gpp.

I talked about this in an earlier post. In a later post i said "still 10gpp". This may have been confusing as i had dropped from 13+gpp to 10. Just emphasizing that 10gpp is still not exactly a lightweight.

Therifleman--I got ya. 10 grains per pound is good and has been recommended for many years. If you shoot heavy bows you can go a little less than that to increase speed and still have plenty of weight. If you only shoot 40 to 45 you might go a little on the heavy side of 10 GPP to have a heavy enough arrow. Learn the trajectory, limit shots on game to 20 yards and you are good as gold with the lighter weights. The standard shafts with the right spine for your bow and 100 to 125 grain head will usually always put you at 9 to 10 GPM. That was the most popular thing for many years and there wasn't much need to bother with FOC. Nowadays there is a lot of heavy weight components,extremely lightweight shafts and radical theories. >>>----> Ken

I have been shooting high FOC arrows for 10 years now.I am used to the fact that in bare shaft shooting,they hit nock high,no matter where my nocking point is.They shoot fine when fletched.It's impact I'm looking for and have learned to not second guess my nocking point height.

Shouldn’t confuse ignorance of high foc with the fact that some just want good flight and have no problems with penetration.

MP

The real thing that got me to look into high FOC was the Ashby Report 2008 Update 4. Pretty sure that's correct, I haven't looked at it for a while.

In it there's a picture of an arrow with a turbulator and a 2.25 inch feather. Under it is another picture with a heavy broadhead. The caption under the two pictures says something like, "with EFOC, you don't need much fletching, the rear of the arrow has to follow the tip".

If you look at my previous post, I don't agree with the fletching part. A tuned arrow doesn't need any fletching. BUT the sentence still makes a lot of sense to me. I've tried to do some testing to confirm some of my thoughts, but ran into problems.

My first thought was that a high FOC arrow would drift less in wind. I THINK that's true, but couldn't prove it. (I really need a shooting machine) High winds usually have gusts that mess with results. Plus the winds I was shooting in messed with my bow arm.

Another thing that I thought of was is a high FOC arrow more forgiving than 8 to 12% target archers are shooting. I doubt it or they'd be shooting higher FOC. BUT with the thought of the rear of the arrow having to follow a heavy tip that's pointed at a bullseye, wouldn't it take more flubbing of the release on the nock end to nock a heavy point off the bullseye than a light point?

For those of you that don't know Cheezehead lingo, flubbing means a poor release.

Couldn't prove that one either.

Bowmania

I'm fletching my 29"/.350 spine bare shafts with 300gr points cause there's no sense trying to bare shaft them cause at 10yds out?....the nock is almost pointing to heaven while the point is headed too hades and then air drag on the shaft straightens it back out by the time it crosses the 15yd mark but it does this no matter how low I locate the nocking point so I bare shaft for left/right spine tuning only and as long as the nock flies straight up and straight back down?...I'm good...just no fishtailing action.

5" Full Helix LW Feathers and set the nock point to hit where I look and good to go and it's amazing how just the few spins those feathers instill stabilize those heavy hitters.

My maple shafts were a wake up call from the dream of EFOC where the 500gr weight of the shaft left me right at 8%FOC with 100gr points and they fly like darts feathers or not.

Well, I'm back from 3 days in KS and needed a pickup and trailer to bet back to Cheezehead land as the following post will prove. LOL.

I don't agree with this nock high stuff. You CAN get that out of your shaft, but it takes time. On another post concerning this I agreed with someone who said he takes two three weeks to tune. I don't want to say it always takes me that long, but it may and then even a tweek here and there when testing broadheads.

Here's the issue. Go to the ACS site and look for the picture with bare shafts above the fletched. This means your nocking point is too low. BUT look at bare shaft angle in the target (let's find out what that target is made of). The nock is below the tip. In reality, you'll never see this. Your looking at an area that's probably 1/8 or less for that to happen.

The reason is because if the nocking point is too low, the rear of the shaft hits the shelf making it kick up and when you look at the target you see the nock ABOVE the tip.

What does this mean to tuning? Frustration if your not careful. My suggestion is start high and use two tie on nocking points ( allow for some space between the points and nock). Shoot with the tag end of the nocking points long, so you can tighted after shooting.

When you start, pay more attention to impacts than bare shaft angle. As the impacts of the bare and fletched become close it's time to watch the angle. Now, if you have to move the nocking point, move the top one first and move it down one strand of serving.

This is the area where I'll shoot a bare shaft for a week, before deciding to move another strand down OR stay and glue. Going really slow here will eliminate frustration, because a little too low will still look too high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you can see from what's in my truck and trailer, don't do it because I do it, do it because it makes sense.

Bowmania

To back to the nosediving... I bareshaft a lot of arrows from a lot of bows just to see what I get. I pay attention to the ACS website instructions but I also freelance some. I bareshaft out to 20 yards, no farther. In my experience nosediving is different than arrows dropping off because of weight. It's more porpoising type flight but may only show up to my eye 10 or so yards from the bow, not immediately and it may be severe at that range. Generally when I see arrows nosediving at that range it's because of the height of the nocking point, possibly arrow spine, pressure from my drawing hand or some other related issue but not because of FOC.

Jake, before I even try to answer your question, I'm going to ask some questions.

Three questions to be exact.

(1) Do you cant your bow?

(2) If so, to what degree do you cant?

(3) How are your arrows impacting in relation to a vertical, and horizontal line (a cross) of where you are aiming?

Rick

I donsloghtly can’t my bow. Looking at your diagram slightly less than 30 degree. My arrows are impacting well together. As my tuning has gone they’re just showing slightly stiff.

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