A friend just told me about poison pods being used to hunt here in Michigan back in the day. Said Fred Bear either used them or was an advocate for their use. Anybody have any experience or more info about these? Are they legal in any state today? Sounds like a horrible idea to me. Just shoot better and you won’t need the help of poison to kill a deer.

Bad, bad, bad idea. I think they used to be allowed in Mississippi.

They had a brief flurry of activity back in the 60s. Yes they were a bad idea and never gained traction. As far as I know they have been illegal ever since.

They are still allowed in Mississippi. Just guessing that about 40% of the archers still use it.

What kind of poison is in them?

Anectine. That's likely misspelled. It's used in hospitals to put people to sleep for surgery. It's loaded in pods at a level that is more than 100 times over to kill a deer...or human for that matter.

I think its a horse tranquilizer. it shuts the lungs down. as long as you draw blood it will kill them. you can shoot them in the leg and if you draw blood they will not make it past 40 yards. I worked several years at an archery shop. I was told it was illegal for shops to sell it, but legal for people to use. The sold a ton of of it, with the pods that go on the front of the arrow behind the broadheads. The pods are circular and have 3 or 4 flat sids or chambers, and you roll what looks like a ballon back and fill the chambers with poison roll the rubber forward and when if goes thru the animal the rubber rolls back and releases the poison. I never used it because there are people who have lost fingers and even hands because of nicking a finger on a broadhead while loading the pod and getting poison in the cut.

I think the real name of the drug is Succinylcholine chloride. Anectine is the trade name.

I guess it doesn't taint the meat?

I was always thought it has to ruin the meat but never heard of anyone getting sick from it. here is a pod on an arrow.

Wild life biologists started the pod program to provide an easier way to tranquilize animals without the noise of a gun. Dan Quillian, Fred Bear and G.Howard Gillelan were involved in the program. Hypodermic needles delivered by arrows were used in the tests. Glenn StCharles opposed Bear in their use. You would need a prescription from a doctor or a vet to get the drug being used. After an hour or so it disappeared from the bloodstream and didn't hurt the meat. Liquid Amber has about as much or more info on the subject as anybody going. bvd

It's always been the idea here that it's legal to use...but not legal to sell. It's kind of a "the other guy is illegal but not me"

The truth is that the state looks the other way and never has specifically addressed it...given its popoularity.

The truth of the matter is its a Federal crime and falls under the direction of the FDA is a regulated drug. It is a human use drug for sedation. Most of the drug in yesteryear was stolen from hospitals.... until a black market evolved. It's nasty, it's ugly, and its hideous in the way it kills. I likely killed 25 deer with it in the late 70's and 80's before I understood the ideology of bowhunting and what the sport was all about.

I have a letter from the FDA that addresses the legality of the drug from a Federal perspective from the early 90's. I will try to find the digitized version and post to make everyone understand the issue is simply one of lack of enforcement...and not that its legal for anyone.

It’s actually a muscle relaxant (paralyzes the muscles). The animal (or person) is awake and can feel pain but can’t breathe or move. Death is by suffocation. If its used in the operating room breathing is controlled and other drugs are given for sedation and pain control. Not a good idea to be out in the general population .

Sound like a something good for home defence .

Antenna the animal and it still dies. No wonder it was banned as it should be.

Arrowing animals are supposed to die from suffocation from lungs collapsed by the arrow or bleed out. To die by poison is just not right.

There probably was not a sufficient study done on the effects of eating the game either.I just wonder. Must have made the meat tuff and taste like one of Friskys deer he runs over that was all strung out from the trauma.

I knew poison had been banned but didn't know the story behind it or what really happened? This was terrible.

Dear Mr. Livingston,

You asked me three questions. Your questions and my response follows:

1) Is the use of SCC illegal for bow hunting by the individual sportsmen?

Succinylcholine chloride has never been approved for killing deer. When used for this purpose it is an animal drug within the meaning of section 201(w) and it requires approval by this agency. We could take regulatory action against the product in the hands of bow hunters, however we believe it is a better use of our resources to take action against those distributing the product and leave the regulation of hunting in the hands of the states. Our regulatory actions focus on manufacturers and major distributors, not on individual bow hunters.

Succinylcholine chloride does have legal uses in human medicine, but only under very carefully controlled conditions by medical people trained in it's use, primarily in surgery.

2) What are the possible penalties, if known?

Ordinarily the first action is a warning letter followed by seizure of the product if immediate corrective action is not taken. If the individual or firm involved continues to distribute or use SCC despite warning and/or seizure we would likely initiate injunction and/or CRIMINAL (emphasis mine) prosecution proceedings in the federal courts.

3) If illegal, why is there no enforcement from the Federal level?

In the 1970s, the federal government Agency seized U-Tha-Sol (SCC), a product marketed for animal euthanasia by the Palmer Chemical Company, Douglas Georgia. We charged that the product was an unapproved new animal drug when sold for this pupose. The government won this case in a Calfornia jry trial decided in 1978.

In March 1986, the government seized bulk SCC and finished product, Kleen Kill, from Quest Chem, San Antonio Texas. The firm subsequently stopped marketing the product.

In the 1980s, an investigation in Mississippi revealed a scheme whereby a veterinarian, a pharmacy and a sporting goods store were dispensing SCC powder to bowhunters. Letters from the FDA caused this activity to cease.

If we determine that this drug is distributed for bowhunting we will ordinarily investigate the source of the distribution and take whatever regulatory action is needed. Whatever your membership can do to assist in stopping the use of SCC in bow hunting in Mississippi will be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely Yours, Edward J. Ballitch Director, Division of Compliance Center for Veterinary Medicine

I haven't seen this much bull crap since walking thru the slaughter house!

I was told Fred Bear used the Pod. This ole boy is not eating meat with poison in it.

As I remember it, one of the reasons for the pod was to stop wounded animals from running off with arrows stuck in them and suffering before dying. Even a bad hit would put down the animal and recovery rate was expected to be near 100%.

As above? An idea that quickly (and thank GOD) vanished! Brothers, let us put this one to rest!

Sipsey, that was the original idea. It would make it easier to find fatally hit animals, such as gut shot deer, that would otherwise live and suffer for hours. Unfortunately, it also promotes unethical practices such as long range shooting and aiming at body parts that otherwise would be considered non-vital areas. Promotes slob bowhunting at its worse. All you have to do is hit the animal and roll the pod back and it will die. The ugly truth is that hits to non-vital areas most often leave very poor blood trails that the average hunter cannot follow. So rather than have an animal recover from a hit to the tenderloin, it is laying dead in the brush and the "hunter" is unable to track it.

I guess I missed why my post was deleted.God forbid a DVM with 32 years experience using the drug should post information.

I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would use one for deer hunting at all. I first heard of the pod about 35 years ago. I worked with a guy from Mississippi and he told me about them. I honestly thought he was pulling my leg.

There have been other discussions over the years about this and of course Fred Bear is ALWAYS brought up and he tried using it. Thing is we learn from our mistakes in what we thought was a good idea at the time. This product was a potential hazazd for those that used it, from getting they powder into wounds, to accidently inhaling it. This has been an informative thread in how it has been discussed. On top of everything else it is a Federally controlled substance.

ButchMo,

I WANT to know why you seem to think this is "bull crap". You seem to know more than what the people here who do know what they are talking about.

DANNY

Do some research before talking about the pod. It was first introduced as a hypo arrow, and there was an article by Dan Quillian in Bow and Arrow in March of 1965. A few years later a different delivery system was tried called the POD, a latex sleeve behind the head. It was never really okayed for hunting in the days back then as it was experimental for that use. It was never used wide spread, and Bear never used it in Africa as it was not legal there to start with. Fred gave it some thought but Glenn St.Charles talked him down saying it basically was saying that bowhunting wasn't effective as it was. Fred agreed and the notion was dropped.

"I guess I missed why my post was deleted.God forbid a DVM with 32 years experience using the drug should post information. "

That's the problem, too many facts. You know facts don't work here, only hearsay and innuendo.

Interesting it was never adapted to hollow point ammunition. No more wounded game for gun hunters either.

Thanks Georg. You see? I was misinformed. I was told Mr. Bear used it. Glad he didn’t.

JusPassin there wouldnt be enough volume

Bad idea.At the time both the feds and organized hunters were against it.Fred Bear was for it but he backed off(didn't attend the meeting between the govt.and the hunters).A fellow in Miss.killed himself when he accidentally stabbed(cut) himself.This substantially reduced the enthusiasm for this technique.

I don't believe I've seen as much misinformation in a thread sine I read the last CWD thread....

Well I took one doe about 25 years ago with a pod. I had considered it's use several years before, however while loading the pod I realized I had terrible cracks in my hands. I convinced myself it had entered my blood stream and started hyperventilating. I damn near called for an ambulance. As far as the use, not always effective due to how it is administered . Much of the dope is lost on the way in. I have a pharmacist bud who supplied me and he warned that if the deer did not get a lethal dose it could recover. I shot the doe and she piled up some 40 yards away. The shot looked good on its on. About a half hour latter, she got up and walked past my tree where she took another arrow. Meat was fine.

I saw a valuable buck darted in a pen with it then the breeder ran oxygen in his nostrils.He recovered but there are much better ways to safely capture.

Well Mike I didn't say what caliber might be needed. LOL

Having been a very outspoken critic of the drugged arrow (its not really a poison)for decades.... and having used it successfully many times in my youth before I knew better; I'm kind of sitting here in a unique position. Add to that I was president of the state bowhunting organization and its legislative chairman...I'm pretty well versed on the subject.

In its early days, people tended to shoot needles which flew in the more modern argument face of it being insurance (it couldn't be insurance as it as the primary kill agent) Later the pod was developed locally... and patented by Bear to my understanding. The latter could be 'misinformation' but I'm pretty sure I have seen it in writing.

The pod was never a fool proof system as the drugged weakened rapidly when placed in a pod, the pod delivery had inherit waste ...and it rarely ever worked on a paunch hit. It needed a good blood supply to work and the paunch wasn't it.

I'm not aware of deaths by anyone inhaling or stabbing themselves with it (though I'm not saying it didn't happen) but at least two human deaths have occurred with drugged tipped arrows under the 'mistaken for game" category...something that rarely happens in conventional bowhunting. One event happened when I was at MSU near Columbus when a friend shot his buddy with a drugged tip arrow, hit his femoral and his friend died. A well publized article ran in Bowhunter called the "Pod Fraud" and documented this pretty well in the around 1978. Another death occurred to a 16 year old youth in SW Mississippi when his relative shot him through his heart. This was in the mid 90's but was never well documented. I only knew of it as I was working closely with the state wildlife agency at the time.

While I would estimate that nearly 90% of the states bowhunters used it in the 70's; I suspect the usage is far, far less than that today...though it remains popular.

One thing for sure to provide some traditional context to all of this; I can say in the decades I have been around bowhuntings cancer...I have never seen it used by a traditional archer.

if that 50cal hollow point hits it wont need drugs! :)

I wonder if anyone ever poisoned themselves cutting themselves. To dangerous to mess with its not like down the rain for rest now and them pigmys don't have any rules.LOL

WTH?

WTHX2??

Anectine was sold over the counter in Ms at sporting goods stores..in violation of Federal law but under lax enforcement. When the Feds cracked down the supply of anectine pretty much dried up.

It was never "legal" in Ms ..it just wasn't illegal to use it.

A friend shot a bobcat, got a passthru, and never recovered the cat...with a pod. Most of the Anectine was still in the fins of the pod.

The anectine is almost untraceable after an hour er so. A Tx doctor killed his wife many years ago and only after new tests were brought forth was he charged and convicted. The meat of a pod killed deer is safe to eat.

It would be very hard to inject enough Anectine into a cut to kill a person without stabbing the broadhead and pod thru a major muscle. Even then if a fried er two was there to give mouth to mouth resusatation you could make it. We darted a deer with Sucostrin(same stuff as Anectine) and had to give mouth to nose for fifteen minutes to save it after it got too heavy a dose.

I saw a TV show where a guy killed his wife with it.He got it at a Dairy farm he worked at.Rode horses rode up beside her and stuck her in the shoulder blade.She "fell off and hit her head on a rock".Almost got away with it but exhumation showed the needle wound.Its basically untraceable it just blocks normal acetylcholine(necessary for muscle control) from working.

I don't see the problem with it, but it seems like a solution looking for a problem. Make a quality shot, and what does it add?

I don't see that you can say that you can just loose an arrow at the animal and hope for an ankle hit. Yea, if you get a peripheral hit and can find the animal, you may get somewhere with it, but that is just as low percentage as other wing and a prayer shots.

As far as it showing a lack of confidence in the effectiveness of bows as Glen may have argued, we are way past that with the archery gear we have today. Both in terms of stuff supposed to make up for archery's shortcomings, and stuff supposed to make it easier.

I didn't see anything that said that Fred didn't use it. Surely he at least tested it to be behind it as much as he was? A problem in Africa might be just how much drug would you need on a 10 000 pound bull elephant?

As George is always saying, it has to be traditional because they used that stuff back before the compound, or for that mater curare has being used in the field and later, since the 30s, in surgery.

Legality seems to be the big issue. But there might have been a work around if it could be made in one time use pods. Certainly there are chemicals that are used in self-defense and you can get those after the regulation has been dealt with. But there was no point fighting for it because it was only a regional misconception.

K cummings..... too funny!

About 20 years ago, I got into one hell of an online argument with the inventor of the pod, who still held a patent on it at that time. Or maybe it was that the patent had expired, and he simply had an axe to grind because he felt he had missed out on a huge money-making opportunity and was still on a mission to prove that it wasn’t just about the money.

In any case, his position was that deer would never hold still long enough for an arrow to reach its intended mark, so this was an “absolutely necessary” enhancement to the bow hunting arsenal. Sounded a lot as if he had big hopes of making them not just popular, but mandatory.

And in support of his argument, he had accumulated quite a library of film featuring jumpy Texas whitetails exploding at the sound of what was probably a slow, none-too-well silenced bow and being badly wounded. Probably did more for the anti-hunting and anti-bowhunting crowd’s propaganda efforts than any of them ever could have done on their own.

Think about THAT for a minute… A lot of us are concerned about the image of bow hunting based on the “success” videos that a lot of these YouTube yahoos are willing to post for their own glorification, and this guy compiled a library where all of the outtakes were clean kills. But I guess that’s like anything else… If your objective is to prove that it cannot be done correctly it’s not that hard to engineer a situation in which you’re guaranteed to screw it up.

If I recall correctly, there was some bad blood between him and Fred Bear after Fred came out against them.

Oh, but I am CERTAIN that it had nothing to do with the money… SMH

Gf...Just a wild guess here but sounds like you might have been talking to Adrian Benke...author of the book "The Bowhunting Alternative"

Mr. benske requested when I was president of the state bowhunting organization to come to Mississippi (from Texas) and present his finding in regard of the pod. Not really knowing too much about him at the time I supported him coming as a guest. As you might expect I saw those 'jumpy' video's and I think we were all pretty much appalled. Benske basically said that anything bigger than rabbits should be hunted with the aid of drugs with a bow, His video's set out to prove that a 22 caliber bullet was superior to that of an arrow....and since you legally couldn't hunt with 22 caliber...you shouldn't be allowed to hunt with a broadhead tipped arrow!

I had a letter at one time (might still have it somewhere) from the state of California that said California's decision to abolished the archery bear season in the 90's was largely due to Benske's book...as the anti's used his book as evidence in the courts of the bows 'cruel and inhumane' method of harvest. GF's point is well taken.

As far as Bear's patent on the pod (if its true), Bear never used his patent to restrict others from making the patented product. The largest supplier of the pod was from Mississippi but I will not mention names. I will say that they owned another business and once give me their product and told me never to come back in their store. I guess they didn't like my efforts which could be detrimental to their business. It never really turned out that way. It's still used today.

Well, I have a copy of Fred's patent. I'll try to take a pic and post it. Now as far as Fred not using it in Africa! If you will watch him shooting the cape buffalo, watch where the arrow hits him and he moving away from the car that Fred's shooting out of. He hits him in the ham, the ideal spot for the pod to work "Deep into a large muscle"

Bob

I plan for this to be my last post. Based on letters that I've read and some other sources, I really doubt that Baer's idea changed very much on the pod; I suspect he just abandoned the promotion of the concept based on the feedback he was getting from the bowhunting community at the time.

Memories can be deceiving (specially when you are at at the gateway of old geezerhood!) but I swear I remember an old Bear video that I watched on a large African animal that I thought I saw a puff of white! I remember thinking, I'm likely the only one watching that might know what that could be.

Hopefully I am wrong but wouldn't say it if I didn't think it were true.

The idea of using a syringe to delivery tranquilizers to capture animals was developed at the University of Georgia by Dr. James Jenkins.

Red Palmer patented Cap-Chur Equipment, his 1950's invention, a tranquilizer gun and darts filled with chemicals rendering wild animals helpless and was the supplier of the equipment. He founded Palmer Chemical and Equipment Co. in Atlanta, but moved it in the 1970s to 600 acres in Douglasville, GA where he could keep lions, tigers, elephants, hyenas and other exotic animals, researching the dosages of his chemicals it would take to fell each species.

The Hypo-Arrow was the next step and UGA was involved as well as wildlife folks from Maryland. Quillian's involvement and experimenting was directly related to his contacts at UGA. Dan lived in Athens and was an archery pioneer.

Dr. R. P. Herrington gets credit for the "Pod." Fred Bear patented all sorts of archery stuff to keep the available to the archery community.

"Dr. Herrington was an avid sportsman, a championship archer and an inventor of "the Pod," bow-hunting equipment." From Obituary published in The Advocate (Baton Rouge) on: 4/10/2001

Bear experimented with the pod and was an advocate of using it. What caused him to back off was heat from the archery community, strictly a business decision.

I interviewed Dr. James Jenkins and took classes at UGA in 1970 under Dr. Ernie Provost, another pioneer in tranquilizer capture techniques. He loved to tell of his experiences and working through all the early problems with these capture techniques. I interviewed Dan Quillian on his involvement as well as one of the Mississippi Biologists present during the 1970 hunt in his state.

To the best of my knowledge it is still used in Mississippi and South Carolina, and likely in other places.

“The Pod” is part of our history, like it or not, and deserves an honest treatment. By that I mean the factual story. Unfortunately, most of the folks with first hand information are gone and we are left with gleaning information from published sources.

You can still buy the arrow mounted syringe from Palmer

If is succinylcholine I used to use it a lot when I was working on the ambulance. We used it for something called rapid sequence intubation. It’s a paralytic.

To be honest, there's been a few times when I needed a pod.

Ain't so bad, they were trying stuff to see what would/should stick. All part of the history. Fascinating stuff.

Yes, bear was fan of the pod, old information

I have no idea if it had once held the posion or not, but over in Illinois two year ago, found a new Steel Force broadhead that had a pod behind it. Leads me to think some are still using them.

Stringwhacker, thanks Mark for the good info. It’s a terrible idea as you have confirmed. I know although illegal , it was used here fairly widely here in Ark for a while lots of years ago. I have heard rumors of it still being used to a extent.

As several have already mentioned, the pod was never legal for bowhunting. Any use of the drug by an unlicensed individual is a violation of federal law. It was a matter of some states (namely Mississippi) refusing to enforce federal drug law for whatever reason. I have no idea why the federal government did not step in when it came to their attention that the drug was being illegally distributed and used in some states for hunting purposes.

Several bowhunters were killed in accidental shootings involving pod-tipped arrows. Due to the location of the wounds it was thought that they probably would have died from blood loss regardless so it is hard to say if the drug was the cause of death.

And yes, Fred Bear was a supporter and advocate of the pod. He participated in quite a few exploration hunts with the pod. One involved hunting whitetails on one of the islands off the coast of Georgia. A story of the hunt appeared in Bow and Arrow magazine. I have seen photographs of Fred Bear in Africa and in some photographs you can clearly see pods mounted below the broadheads.

Like it or not, that is the history of the pod.

Most states do specifically prohibit them. At least all of the states I’ve ever bowhunted....

Let’s just say that I (for one) am happy that they’re HISTORY.

Maybe I'll put some on swap thread....what's the worse that could happen.

JK

JK=just kidding

In the early 80's it was a common as broadheads in Mississippi. They sat right by the cash register and the dope was under the counter. Right or wrong it was used a lot.

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