Dean torgeus said once to never cut an arrow shelf into a selfbow.I do this on all of my selfbows, and have never had a failure because of it.The bows seem to tune easier, it seems to minimize paradox, and for me ,better for hunting. The shelfs are cut at least i quarter of an inch deep.Your thoughts?

I have only had one selfbow break that I cut a shelf into, that was an Ash bow. Also find closer to center shot is more forgiving of spine.

my bows all have stiff handles.katman your correct.

I cut some shelves in, but not always. If done right they wont hurt the bow at all. There are a lot of things those old bowyers said to never do. I dont listen to much of it.

The closer to center the strike plate is the wider the spine range, the same as any other bow is.

Bob

Kevin that is perfect. Made my day. LMAO

Pretty basic thing. The closer to center, the further to the right it moves the point of the arrow (for a right handed archer) thus allowing a wider range of spines.

The way an arrow shelf is located in a bow has -0- to do with whether you do or don't shoot the bow canted. You should be pointing the center of the arrow, not the center of the bow at the target.

"The way an arrow shelf is located in a bow has -0- to do with whether you do or don't shoot the bow canted. You should be pointing the center of the arrow, not the center of the bow at the target." Ahhhh yes. Someday that will sink it Frank.

Thank you, Frank & George. I don't know how many times that has been said and no one seems to listen or comprehend that message.

Bob

Yes, you are aiming the arrow not the bow.

Keep doing what you are doing Bassman. Become the bow--no become the arrow. It gives me a headache. I like what you do.>>--->Ken

Hedgehunter: What is it that you don't understand about George's comments?

It has nothing to do with the shooter, or how he shoots or holds the bow, its how depth of shelf effects the spine needed.

Bob

Regardless of how one holds the bow, or how deep the sight window is or isn't, you STILL have to aim the arrow. If you don't, you are shooting at an angle that is ever increasing as the distance to the target increase.

Now, different people do that differently, including some that cant the bow. Including Keith Baine, who was/is just about as good as they get.

However, irregardless of how you hold the bow, including parallel with the ground, you still have to be pointing the entire arrow, at the target.

And as Bob stated, the conversation was related to the depth of the shelf/sight window as it relates to arrow spine.

Some folks just like it when their arrows ricochet (paradox) off the riser/handle. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if the arrow is tuned just right.

Some folks just seem to like it when their arrows ricochet (paradox) off the riser/handle. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if the arrow is tuned just right.

I like a deeper arrow rest myself. So does the hot shot shooters that shoot AW bows. You can argue the paradox till the end of time but the scores of the hot shots don't lie. Arvin

Cutting in shelves is fine but not essential. I don't cut in arrow shelves and my arrows fly very well. Thank you very much. :) Jawge

Pablo used to say on here if you cut in a shelf you've made a shelf-bow. :) Jawge

You are welcome Jwage. To each his own. It's still archery. And yes maybe a shelfbow. One piece of wood with tip overlays. Definitely! How it goes from there is up to its maker. Call it what you want . The design works well for some of us bowyers and archers. For the non shelf-arrow rest guys have fun with what you do . I will definitely will not hold it against you. Peace my brothers. Arvin

It sure is nice to see the occasional debate free thread. I would hate to see how this thread went if it wasn't debate free.

Guys -

Lets clarify a few things?

Cutting a riser closer to or past center depends on the width of the riser, and whether or not there's enough meat there to prevent failure. Beyond that, it's personal preference.

In fact, most vintage laminated bows were not cut to center, and even fewer pasted center. The few that were, were almost always high end target bows.

The thing about being close to center allows a wider range of arrow spines, is only partly true. Sure, if you don't bother tuning, you can have more fletched arrows of different spine appear to fly true from most bows that are close(r) to center. Once you start tuning, and actually want the rig to tune, you options become more limited. Think about it: Olympic bows are always cut well past center and the arrow set fairly close to center, yet the arrows and tuning parameters are set to a knife edge. We can tune those rigs to bare shaft at 70M, if you try that changing arrows spines, it just not going to work.

Put another way, being closer to center may mask spine intolerances, but not eliminate it.

Oh yeah, on paradox. If you know what you're doing, you don't want to eliminate it, you want to use it. And since the string leaving the fingers is what initiates it, trying yo eliminate (if even possible) would make the rig unforgiving, if not unstable.

Viper out.

Arvin, sorry. Just having fun. You must have missed the ":)". Jawge

I just like a bow that can hold its own arrow, nothing complex or scientific. I'm not a off the knuckle kind of guy.

KPC I built one of those for Calvin and he took second at world with it in Seniors I think. It did not belong in primitive for sure. Arvin

KPC I built one of those for Calvin and he took second at world with it in Seniors I think. It did not belong in primitive for sure. Arvin

I don't like the looks of a cut in shelf but I much prefer shooting them so I cut most of my shelves.

If a bow is outside of center and shot with a mechanical release, it will still show an 'S' curving paradox. A college kid using the high camera from the college sports department, used me in an assignment. She noticed the 'S' curve in slow motion and thought it was cool, so we did a bunch of shots with my different bows. With my self bows and other bows that were well outside of center, from the mechanical release to my fingers, the initial flex into the bow and then around the bow was nearly the same. That initial contact when the arrow is released, may rob some speed from an arrow, but I imagine that it can also add some built guidance forgiveness. Like Dick Robertson said to me, "It seems that with longbows, the arrow needs something to fly around."

I usually glue on an arrow rest but I can rest the arrow on my knuckle if need be. Doesn't matter to me. One's just as an accurate as the other for me. Jawge

My hand position must vary too much. I have a signed Hungarian"Horse Bow" Not wanting to permanently alter the bow I laced on a leather rest that would be simple to remove. The arrows seem to group closer to the chosen spot that way. I enjoy shooting it alot more. >>>----> Ken

that is it 2 bears do what works for you.in the end that is what counts.

I have often read and have had it pointed out by a well known coach that accuracy from shot to shot depends absolutely on doing the same thing every shot.

"Tuned" or not, if the arrows are all the same spine and all the same weight and all the same degree of FOC, the only variation remaining is in the shooter--shelf or no shelf.

An arrow of the "wrong" spine for the bow will still perform exactly the same from shot to shot, if the shooter does the same things each time.

If I had a batch of arrows that were all the same spine and grouping 6 inches to the right, I'd aim six inches to the left and put them in the bull.

There's a lot of bull above this post.

See ya in Mo. Jim I hope ya can make it. We can put this shelf thing to rest hopefully. I have built about 4-6 pyramid bows. I think that's what you like to build. We can test them and may the best bowyer win the flight contest.

I don't like the look of a cut in shelf but I much prefer shooting a cut in shelf so I cut most of my bows with a shelf.

Got a nice selfbow from Jeff Durnell, really wanted to take a deer with it to full fill my Big 5, deer with a laminated recurve, laminated longbow, fiberglass bow, metal bow (grimes) and a selfbow. Have also taken deer with fiberglass, aluminum, carbon and wood arrows.

When I first started shooting the selfbow, arrows hit way left. I knew I needed weaker spined shafts. Before I got some I had lunch with Jim Ploen, where he explained how to grip a bow to make any arrow (except under spined) fly straight to the mark. Tried what he said and the same #20 over spined arrows flew like darts right to the mark. Took a deer that Fall, 7 Yard shot, arrow (23/64ths cedar) blew through him like he wasn't even there, he didn't even know he was hit, went 20 yards and dropped.

When I build a selfbow, I won't cut a shelf into it and prefer it that way. In fact, the laminated longbows I build from now on, the shelf will be rasped in further out from center on purpose.

I have found the same thing as Jim Ploen said. I have not even spine tested an arrow in several years.

Fancied it all up, didn't you! You are well aware that I like an index rest on my bows--index finger that is.

Guys, this is only archery...not like it's baseball or anything. LOL. :) Jawge

Now jawge. I was told from the get go it's like throwing a ball. And it is unless you gap. Wish I would have been told to gap. But thousands of arrows like a ball keeps me from gapping and a good case of target panic that I have never been able to overcome. And yes you can guess at the hand position and knock position and be successful even on game.but the odds are against you are they not? I still manage to have fun with the targets . This is why I became interested in flight shooting. I build better than I shoot and I can hit the earth.lol Arvin

I know, Arvin. Sometimes, I hit the earth when I'm shooting at targets. LOL.

I never wanted to become my arrow. :)

I like flight shooting, too. There used to be places I could do that around here but now I'd hit someone's roof; there is so much building going on.

But I do the best that I can. As I look at 70 y/o (6/19) I Thank God for my faith and my family. My most enjoyable archery times involve family-hunting with my brother of eternal memory and shooting with my daughters.

I love making bows but as I aged they come a lot slower and with more of a physical price and my back keeps me from shooting as much as I want..

I do enjoy watching the Red Sox even as a young-in (6 y/o). Baseball is timeless.

Target panic is a very complex issue with a variety of causes, no doubt. I hope and pray you can control it.

Jawge

Jawge I am pretty sure you lookup target panic in the dictionary you will see a picture of Arvin. I just finally accepted 70-80 percent on target shooting and have fun. But the real passion for me is turning a Osage stave into a bow. Never thought that is how it would be when I first started archery. Don't know what this has to do with paradox. But oh well. Arvin

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