Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


AGINCOURT fact or fiction?

Messages posted to thread:
BATMAN 26-May-18
Pdiddly 26-May-18
RonL 26-May-18
KyPhil 26-May-18
Jim Davis 26-May-18
Elderly OCR 26-May-18
Rick Barbee 26-May-18
Pdiddly 26-May-18
GF 26-May-18
Gray Goose Shaft 26-May-18
Mountain Man 26-May-18
Gray Goose Shaft 26-May-18
twostrings 26-May-18
Elderly OCR 26-May-18
zetabow 27-May-18
Phil 27-May-18
BATMAN 27-May-18
reddogge 27-May-18
George D. Stout 27-May-18
Elderly OCR 27-May-18
George D. Stout 27-May-18
Elderly OCR 27-May-18
Styksnstryngs 27-May-18
oldgoat 27-May-18
Mountain Man 27-May-18
Ron LaClair 27-May-18
buster v davenport 27-May-18
buster v davenport 27-May-18
Iwander 28-May-18
Iwander 28-May-18
Hico 28-May-18
MStyles 28-May-18
okiebones 28-May-18
Elderly OCR 28-May-18
Silverstreak Archer 28-May-18
buster v davenport 28-May-18
Elderly OCR 28-May-18
Phil 28-May-18
Phil 28-May-18
Phil 28-May-18
Phil 28-May-18
George D. Stout 28-May-18
Phil 28-May-18
twostrings 28-May-18
Elderly OCR 28-May-18
larryhatfield 28-May-18
BATMAN 28-May-18
buster v davenport 29-May-18
rusty 29-May-18
Elderly OCR 29-May-18
George D. Stout 29-May-18
buster v davenport 29-May-18
Elderly OCR 29-May-18
Mpdh 29-May-18
Dan W 29-May-18
Fuzzy 30-May-18
Bxrecurve15 30-May-18
Phil 30-May-18
From: BATMAN Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 26-May-18




Hi PEOPLES! I was stumbling around on YOU TUBE and there seems be at least one opinion that the "movies" have us believing that the English and French military were hundreds of yards apart and the English were literally raining arrows down on the French soldiers . knights. The dissenting opinion says that the opposing armies were MUCH CLOSER! Practically point blank! Any body have some good sources to check this out??

From: Pdiddly
Date: 26-May-18




Crookedstix has done a pile of distance shooting with hunting setups...he would know how far a lethal arrow will fly.

From my experience I have no doubt that the heavy English longbows ( 100-175 #) could reach out to 250-325 metres. That does not seem like a great distance but for the opposition that's a long chunk of ground to cover when it's raining war arrows!

From: RonL
Date: 26-May-18

RonL's embedded Photo



Read an authoritative source.

From: KyPhil
Date: 26-May-18




If you can get an arrow going 200 fps then it get about 275 to 300 yards. In one the traditional bowyers bibles i remember reading about an english longbow that shot something like a 1000 grain arrow at 208 fps. The longbow was 130 ot 150 lbs. Thats a pretty heavy arrow to go that fast with serious penetration potential.

From: Jim Davis
Date: 26-May-18




+ 1 RonL

Movies do twist and stretch the truth, but there are many very well researched books on the subject. I have several.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 26-May-18




Logically they started the battle doing that and then closed together as would typically happen.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 26-May-18




I have no doubt, that 250 - 300 yards was quite common for the bows, and arrows they were using.

I am averaging 300 something yards with my 69# bow, and 640 grain arrows.

My rig is 9.27 gpp. Theirs look to have run anywhere from about 6 to 8 gpp, so yeah they could do it.

And, when you figure in the differences from one bow to another in draw weight & arrow gpp, they could blanket a pretty good size area with one volley. I sure wouldn't want to be trying to get out from under it.

Rick

From: Pdiddly
Date: 26-May-18




Elderly OCR is correct...as the attack began the first group out had to face an ongoing hail of arrows...their fallen bodies and those of their horses (if they were mounted) created a physical and psychological barrier to those advancing behind them.

What was really devastating werr archers up on a castle wall or height of land that worked to increase their lethal distance.

From: GF
Date: 26-May-18

GF's embedded Photo



Find a copy of this one… I don’t know what it would cost on Amazon, but I got this copy at the local library for two bits.

Dense as can be, but well researched!

From: Gray Goose Shaft
Date: 26-May-18




History records that the French assembled on top of a hill, while the English formed a defensive line and drove their wooden spikes into the ground to deter a mounted charge. King Henry V subsequently ordered the army to pull the stakes and move forward to a narrower section of field with woods on each side. The new position was described as being an extreme bow shot from the French. People have long wondered why the French did not flatted the English while they were in disarray. Stakes were reset, the French did not attack, time was against the English. The English loosed a volley or two to start the show. Some of the French reacted and crossed the deep, soft muddy field. The English did with arrows what they always did to the French. Those that reached the English were engaged hand-to-hand.

'Agincourt', Juliet Barker 'Agincourt', Anne Curry 'Agincourt', Christopher Hibbert

'Agincourt', Bernard Cornwell, fiction... terrific depiction of the battle.

P.S. Note that the Greeks defeated Persian arrows, darts, and slung shot with shields at Thermopylae in 500 BC while the French took a beating from arrows 2,000 years later in 1415.

From: Mountain Man
Date: 26-May-18




Mr Hardy just passed last year,,,good actor and fellow archer

I told Jim id send him some books on the facts and that book was what i was thinkn

From: Gray Goose Shaft
Date: 26-May-18




I wish I had been there on October 25th, 2015 for the 600th anniversary gathering. It would still be a highlight of my life to draw a warbow and loose a, well... gray goose shaft to the north. The Normandy beaches are nearby, I ought to do it. Do they still have those 'fund me' sites?

From: twostrings
Date: 26-May-18




The French armored cavalry charged, did it not? Started afar then got close and then closer and the archers went to their mallets and knives.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 26-May-18




If you don't have similar long range artillery then you have three choices, attack, retreat or just stay where you are.

From: zetabow
Date: 27-May-18




Juliet Barker's book is a great read.

From: Phil
Date: 27-May-18




There's few "details" that we need to remember ...

A good quality 120lb wooden Yew longbows with a 1200 grain arrow has a maximum range of around 300 yards. A good horse at a strong canter will cover that distance in under 30 seconds.

I've been to and shot arrows on the Agincourt battlefield several times ...

From: BATMAN Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 27-May-18




I did some further looking and it seems that for the MOST part? The English forces made the French Military make most of the moves? Supposedly the battle "field" was very muddy so that the French soldiers were tired by the time that they trekked through the mud?? Just a curiosity of mine. BE SAFE & BLESSED BE!

From: reddogge
Date: 27-May-18




Gray Goose Shaft has it correct.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 27-May-18




If you're going to simulate what they did, you need the equipment they used...English longbows and arrows typical of the time. No modern bow is a fair replication in cast.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 27-May-18




Replicas have been made. As close as can be determined.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 27-May-18




Yes, as close as can be determined. Actually, I was referring to folks using laminated bows nowadays in comparison.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 27-May-18




Probably enough samples from 100 -200 pounds with heavy arrows have been tested to give a realistic view of what actually could have happened.

From: Styksnstryngs
Date: 27-May-18




Grey goose shaft- Agincourt by Cornwell is one of my favorite books, as are all of his Grail series, beginning with the yew bow in the Archer's Tale.

From: oldgoat
Date: 27-May-18




I'll ask my wife, see if she remembers how it went, shes older than dirt!

From: Mountain Man
Date: 27-May-18




Remaking the equipment can be done,,i think the strings would be the hard part You'd have to make the liens or catgut or what was used the same way I mean wood is wood and even metal(bodkins)is repeatable i think an exact string would be the kicker as far as harvesting and processing it the way it was done

From: Ron LaClair
Date: 27-May-18




Here's how it was....

"DREAMS FROM ANOTHER LIFE":... by Ron LaClair I dream of days so long ago

when a mans companion was his bow

Then men and bow would act as one

sending clouds of arrows that blocked the sun

The iron tipped shafts piercing mail of chain making horses scream from the arrows pain

The heavy points of the clothyard shaft

spilled rivers of blood in the wheatfields chaff

Gallant French Knights to war did go

seeking glory in battle with their foe Expecting a fight that was toe to toe

they were killed from afar by the mighty Longbow These dreams are clear as they can be

5000 archers including me stood side by side with deadly retort that day at the battle of Agincourt

From: buster v davenport
Date: 27-May-18




The first two bows recovered from the 'Mary Rose', in 1841, were carefully measured an guesstimated to weigh about 100#. They were never actually strung and tested. Saxton Pope made a replica from close grained California Yew. as close as he could to the recorded dimensions. His replica weighed in at 65# @ 28" and shot a light flight arrow 225 yds. At 36", it weighed 76# and shot a flight arrow 256 yds. Why would there be a 35# difference between two pieces of Yew, unless the bows from the 'Mary Rose' were over estimated? bvd

From: buster v davenport
Date: 27-May-18




The first two bows recovered from the 'Mary Rose', in 1841, were carefully measured an guesstimated to weigh about 100#. They were never actually strung and tested. Saxton Pope made a replica from close grained California Yew. as close as he could to the recorded dimensions. His replica weighed in at 65# @ 28" and shot a light flight arrow 225 yds. At 36", it weighed 76# and shot a flight arrow 256 yds. Why would there be a 35# difference between two pieces of Yew, unless the bows from the 'Mary Rose' were over estimated? bvd

From: Iwander
Date: 28-May-18




Here's an interesting twist on the battle History:

From: Iwander
Date: 28-May-18




Sometimes it's more fun to let the story run as it's written. Here's one of my favorites (page 408):

https://books.google.com/books? id=MzRv5RXFYwAC&pg=PA397&lpg=PA397&dq=adam+bell+clim+of+the+clou gh+in+modern+english&source=bl&ots=DaCVNiPwIJ&sig=MriHOlqaCac864 pjQgnI0LIsANw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL2PKT06fbAhVCtlkKHZ4EDNMQ6A EIaDAJ#v=onepage&q=adam%20bell%20clim%20of%20the%20clough%20in%2 0modern%20english&f=false

From: Hico
Date: 28-May-18




There's few "details" that we need to remember ... A good quality 120lb wooden Yew longbows with a 1200 grain arrow has a maximum range of around 300 yards. A good horse at a strong canter will cover that distance in under 30 seconds.

I've been to and shot arrows on the Agincourt battlefield several time

IN the mud?

From: MStyles
Date: 28-May-18

MStyles's embedded Photo



The last thing some of the French soldiers saw...

From: okiebones
Date: 28-May-18




There's few "details" that we need to remember ... A good quality 120lb wooden Yew longbows with a 1200 grain arrow has a maximum range of around 300 yards. A good horse at a strong canter will cover that distance in under 30 seconds. I've been to and shot arrows on the Agincourt battlefield several time

IN the mud?

Exactly ...that's a part of the story that keeps getting left out . The ground the French advanced across would've been awful as it had been recently plowed and it had rained . That sucks walking across solo in knee high rubber boots. Now add armor, lots and lots of your closest friends, horses , etcc. Forget about it.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 28-May-18




Sure a horse can still move pretty quickly through mud. Certainly the first horses would get through pretty quickly.

I've actually galloped a horse through a ploughed field after rain. Heavy horses were bred to have strength of movement in bad going.

The comments above about the first two Mary Rose bows recovered are meaningless when compared against ALL of the recovered bows and replicas made. The string isssue has also been solved. Guys have made strings that will fit the nocks of the arrows and still stand up to 170 pounds or so.

From: Silverstreak Archer
Date: 28-May-18




Obviously this is an archery site. We are interested in the role the bow played in the battle, but the weapons are not the half of it. We could argue all day about the simulations of armor busting with the longbow. My guess is it was a close range deal against the best armored knights. Men at arms with leather or ring armor would be another matter.

The more important item, both at Agincourt and at Crecy, is the battlefield itself. In both cases, the English chose a strong defensive position that dictated the terms of the engagement. In both instances, the French could not bring their entire force to bear on the English position at once. They were funneled by the terrain into a kill zone. Once the initial charge is decimated, remaining French troops now find their way littered with the carcasses of dead and dying horses and men. As the day goes on, it only gets worse.

From: buster v davenport
Date: 28-May-18




The comments about the first two Mary Rose Bows may be meaningless today, but it is all they had to go on back then. It still does not explain a 35# difference of weight between the actual (Pope} and the estimated (Mary Rose). The bows were 6'4-3/4" long. Usually bows were made to the height of the archer. So, those bows could have been piked to gain more weight. bvd

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 28-May-18




It doesn't have to be explained when the later replicas of a much larger number of samples showed heavier weights. Also the man height bow idea is doubtless incorrect. There is no reason that a person can't shoot a bow much taller thn they are.

From: Phil
Date: 28-May-18

Phil's embedded Photo



Some Mary Rose bows

From: Phil
Date: 28-May-18

Phil's embedded Photo



From: Phil
Date: 28-May-18

Phil's embedded Photo



From: Phil
Date: 28-May-18

Phil's embedded Photo



From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 28-May-18




Phil, curious as to what your opinion was as to the weight attained on those bows. Saxton Pope tried replicating them from information on their make and came up to about 65 to 80 pounds on his heaviest if I remember correctly. He wasn't privy to the bows on the ship itself though.

From: Phil
Date: 28-May-18




George, I've been fortunate to see the Mary Rose bows at first hand plus I was privileged to have know and spoken to at great length with the late Roy King who made the replica bows that feature in both books by the late Robert Hardy (who was also a friend.

All of the Mary Rose copies made by Roy were made for european Yew and came out at draw weights between 100lb and 120lbs.

From: twostrings
Date: 28-May-18




Does yew swell when it's been submerged in seawater?

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 28-May-18




Likely but it likely also shrinks when it dries.

Some think that the Mary Rose bows were not as beefy as bows from the past since the three big battles were actually a considerably earlier time relative to the days of the MR.

From: larryhatfield
Date: 28-May-18




Good source----https://www.britishbattles.com/one-hundred-years-war/battle-of-agincourt/

From: BATMAN Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 28-May-18




Wonder if any of these bows have been subjected to X-Ray, Cat-scan or MRI to examine the bows in GREAT DETAIL to see if replicas can be made to simulate the originals???

From: buster v davenport
Date: 29-May-18




After doing a little reading, I think I can answer my question above as to why Pope's approximation bow was lighter than the estimated weight of the Tower bows.

Prior to 1992, Richard Galloway made an approximation of the same Tower bows which weighed over 100# @ 28" draw. Either Pope's stave was not as Stiff as Galloway's or more likely , since it did not break at 36" draw, his bow was thinner. The thickness of the bow is very important because the strength varies with the cube of the thickness. A small increase in thickness gives a large increase in strength.

According to Hardy, Roy King made his approximation bows from the best staves of Oregon yew that could be obtained.

The MRA closely examined the cross section of broken bows. bvd

From: rusty
Date: 29-May-18




the english were afraid the french might move or string jump so they waited till they were within 20 yards

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 29-May-18




You'll also hear some thoughts that European Yew may be denser and stiffer per mass than Pacific Yew.

Hard to say how true that is but all of the replicas made by enthusiasts in Europe from their timber seem to register much higher draw weights.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 29-May-18




Thanks Phil, I love this stuff. )

From: buster v davenport
Date: 29-May-18




The various French factions argued among themselves as to who would lead the charge. The Nobles put their 8000 archers and crosssbowmen to the rear, rendering them useless. After the battle many bows and sheaves of arrows were found in the French baggage wagons that were never unpacked.

At one time Spanish yew was considered to be the best available but, it is hard to come by now days. Whether true or not, it was rumored that the King of Spain had all of the yew trees cut down when they were at war with England. He could not see supplying the English with the very weapons that would be used against them. The best available yew today comes from Oregon. bvd

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 29-May-18




By the time England and Spain were at war all the good yew was probably gone anyway and the longbow a weapon of the past.

From: Mpdh
Date: 29-May-18




A lot of lefthanders on the cover of the first book.

MP

From: Dan W
Date: 29-May-18




Last known use of the longbow as an official arm of the English military was the fight with the Spanish Armada, 1599. Already obsolescent.

"Mad Jack" Churchill at Dunkirk used his 100@#28" longbow in a strictly unofficial, but effective capacity.

One lone, single English archer. One dead Nazi officer.

From: Fuzzy
Date: 30-May-18




"point blank" range would negate the chief military advantage of the longbow.

From: Bxrecurve15
Date: 30-May-18




Great video Iwander.

From: Phil
Date: 30-May-18




of course the interesting questions is ... was the arrow capable of penetrating armour at 200 yards plus .. and the common consensus is ... no





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