At the recent Kentucky TradFest we had some tough weather. But also tough was the Smoker Round. It was a course set up with ten targets, all set back in the brush, kill zones mostly blocked. The rules required shooters to take only 1 arrow on the course, if you missed a target and lost your arrow or broke your arrow, you were done. This was the toughest such course I've ever shot and at the same time the most fun course I have ever shot. Personally, the tougher the course, the more I like it. That goes for the regular scoring 3d courses, the harder and longer the shots, the more I like it. What about you?

Should read EASY not ESAY

Used to shoot smoker rounds at the ABA Mormon Lake shoot years ago. What a blast, shooting through pipes, toilet seats, critters you barley see, and only one arrow. Used metal arrows back then and knowing how to straighten them with your hands was a must. Glad you liked it, seems these days everyoneis scared to lose or bust an arrow.

wide open shoots are boring

I like a challenging shot and it doesn't have to be a long shot. I've shot quite a few one arrow courses and although I find them fun. But for most being eliminated on the first or second target is a turn off IMO.

I've also shot acourse where they gave you the option of two targets on some stakes. Always thought that was unique, a challenge for some, and yet affordable for a family.

I've done 3D set ups for many years and believe that harder/difficult shots discourage most average bow hunters from returning. 3D shoots are fund raisers, and when the number of shooters drops year after year, soon enough they will not be worth the effort. I'm not talking about just too long shots at small scoring rings, but also targets at the edge of a drop off, without a backstop, or, only rocky backstops. Targets with the scoring rings obstructed, or positioning the shooter to contort to shoot, is simply ridiculous and unsafe.

I see challenge as a distance relative to the size of the scoring rings. Just as there is a "too far", there is also a "too close".

Smoke'm if you got'em - I like them all. Heck, I've lost more arrows in my back yard than most 3D matches. lol Would like to see the 10-ring though.

USA team came to France last year to shoot WA3D world's, they all said to me they never came across such tough courses.

Good thing it wasn't held in the Alps, those are where the tough courses are set.

People will quit coming to 3D if they have to look for arrows or keep breaking them. Kill zone should be doable as said above.

Not necessarily so.... tough is fun if you come with the right attitude. The Moses Lake rock shoot is a guaranteed arrow breaker but every year more people come. 500 - 600 attendees is typical plus who knows how many hangers- around. It is a non scoring fun shoot - fling arrows until your arm falls off. Competitive folks can enter the one arrow shoot to try and win half the pot. Just come to laugh with friends or make new friends....

I've been to shoots where they've offered a "smoker" round like you describe. It was optional, a novelty, in addition to the main shoot. In that context, I think it works well. Folks can decide to do it or not. If it were the only offering, it wouldn't be as attractive.

One thing I learned quickly with that kind of round is that wood and aluminum arrow shooters usually didn't make it through, or even very far into the course. Arrows take a beating and carbon was about the only material that consistently completed the course.

Smoker round aside, I would argue that the average 3-D course should be set up for the average shooter. That means relatively close shots (15-25 yards) at medium or large size targets (deer, turkey, bear, etc), not 25-30 yard shots at raccoons and rabbits. The latter quickly become frustrating for most shooters, causing a lot of broken and lost arrows. Just isn't fun, and those folks aren't likely to come back.

I get bored very fast with close shots and by close I mean 10 to 15 yards. We always try to make shots challenging but will also shoot from the stake too you can never shoot to many arrows. Some of the most fun I have had is when we take turns picking the shot threw brush between trees what ever it's all good they make new arrows every day. We always make sure it's safe but if you never take hard shots you will never be able to make them. Widow

Made this shot from the stake on the target before this target shot was 50 or so yards alot of luck but then again it has happened before. Widow

A close up pic. Widow

Most AL 3d shoots are relatively close d8stances. I have to admit, the A course at the tradfest kinda threw me off as my bow wasnt correctly setup for those distances. Unfortunately the 1st round had to be the scoring round, because i upgraded limbs after my 1st round and changed my setup to reach out and touch thise further out targets. Only real complaint i had was the required double scoring system @ the tradfest. Double scoring 5 or 6 kids and 3 adults offered a bit of a challenge. Never had to do that before.

Our Albuquerque and Navajo shoot setups are almost always shared between trads and wheels...theres pressure to keep us all happy. Can be done. I think we all want athletics/fitness, not just target-shooting.

A “smoker round” is usually a re entry thing. Usually for an award of its own. It’s a fun thing. I used to make up a special arrows for us. We used to have “turkey shoot” winner got a Thanksgiving turkey. Imagine a hundred folks on line shooting at a frozen turkey swinging on a rope. 3D used to be more fun. Setting up hunting shots where all you could see was the kill area. Maybe half a animal behind a tree. Nowadays with all the target shooters wanting straight on shots with no obstacles like a low branch the “hunting condition” aspect is gone.

I turned in a score of 392 on a 40 target course once in WI. One of the worst courses I ever shot, nothing over 20 yards and most between 10 and 15. That easy is no fun at all.

In general people don't go to 3D shoots to lose or break arrows. They go to have fun. I've seen newcomers have to leave part way thru a shoot because the shots were too long for them and they ran out of ammo. This can be hard on a family's budget. You can make a challenging course without having to stretch the shots beyond the abilities of the average shooter. If the shots are going to be long try to arrange a backstop of some kind. It helps keep the shoot moving and the newbies go home with most of their equipment, ready for another shoot.

On the other hand if it's a championship shoot of some kind, have at 'er.

I look at it this way. When people start shooting perfect scores, the shots are too short. Stretch them out at that point.

Keep in mind the Rock Shoot is a fun, non scored meet. If the shot is too far for your ability, just move your feet and stalk up on the target. Kill zone too close to the rock for your comfort? Move to the side a foot or two. Or (gasp) skip that tricky shot and go to the easier loop course. One of the four loops was originally called the ‘kids course’ but due to popular demand has been renamed the ‘Old man’s course’. ?? In this shot there are three deer - one bedded in a nice big sandy wash the others tucked in the rocks. Choose your shot. Challenge your buddy?

Looks like a fun course Scotsman.

Great question and interesting to see the replies. I have mixed feelings on this.

Personally, I like a challenge. I like shots that force you to make a good shot and that have a "penalty" if you miss.

But I also understand that such courses would chase away newer shooters.

But then again, nothing but "Bowling Alley" shots is just boring.

What I really do appreciate is a course in which they just don't set the targets down and be done with it. Take some time on the set up, use the terrain, be creative.

At the Ky TradFest, the regular scoring 3D course had almost all open clean shots. The distances were varied and the courses were fun. The Smoker Round was a 10 shot added course, one arrow, shooting for a % of the pot. No one had to shoot this course, it was an add one, something different, loved it.

I'm lucky to have a 3D course open all year long a couple miles from me. They have bluestakes for pro shooters, 15 to 50 yards and white stakes for shorter shots, 15 to 35 yards. I don't keep score and like to use my self bow so I usually shoot 10 to 25 yards and move up on the targets. I only count kill shots and try to make 80 % kill shots. Sometimes I get crazy and shoot from the blue stakes if I'm using a longbow or recurve.

I never go to the Ky Tradfest without digging out a few old or odd arrows for the smoker round. Lots of fun and we shoot it just for the laughs.

The tougher the better. The mind can really mess w ya. Tough shots mentally either cause you to blow a shot or forget how hard it is and just shoot. There’s a course by my house that every year has a bionic deer. For those who haven’t seen one it’s plate steel w a grapefruit sized hole to shoot through. It’s only 15 yards. Should be easy but people stress and almost no one gets through it. There are garbage cans next to target for all the broken arrows. Now how is it possible to miss at 15? Some guys blow it so bad they miss the whole deer. Imo they shouldn’t be hunting and need some stress training. It’s something we don’t talk about but buck fever is stress related. You think guys that don’t fare well on the bionic deer can shoot real deer correctly? Kinda doubt it. Myself I tell newbies to take a piece of cardboard or ceiling tile and make a tic tac toe board. Shoot w a friend and whoever wins say two outs 3 gets a free soda bought by the loser or something. The deer against rocks is the same as the bionic deer, same for one in front of a pond or swamp. It’s all setting your mind to the task and blocking out doubt. There’s other ways besides tic tac toe, that was only a for instance. I should add compound shooters are allowed the course at times as well and they fare no better. Weak, doubtful minds imo. We should work on that when shooting, we should introduce stress or distraction when training dogs, w kids, think about the police? Is it fair many draw a pistol in a stress ful time the very first time they are to draw a gun in the line of duty than criticized they missed or did something like shoot a guy reaching for a wallet in an elevator 40 something times? Is it fair to the victim either? Stress training can help all these issues. Try to imcorporate it and you’ll enjoy 3D and the woods more imo

First challenge is to spot the target.

Tough! Just need enough room to draw my longbow at some cant without hitting a limb!

I also enjoyed the smoker trail at the Ky Trad Fest. I made it through with one arrow but since I wasn't scoring I would have used another arrow if I had lost or broke one. When shooting for fun , do what you want to have fun. That would include getting closer to a target if you feel it's too far. I like those longer challenging shots like the Buffalo up in the meadow. I do believe a decent backstop is important. Nothing worse than waiting forever on people searching for lost arrows.

I like "short" shots for the most part, I don't mind brush or twigs or grass in the way. Hitting a target is much more rewarding than hoping to hit it. For me.

Lately I have been making the easy courses look tough with my shooting!

I like it when you get to shoot around branches and logs. Contort your body to get the clearance you need. These are the challenges I look forward to at a 3d event. I shoot with my kids so the “penalty” of some shots sucks my 9yr old boys hate losing arrows, you would think each one is their last. You can have a challenge with an adequate back stop. That speeds up and makes for a safer course to boot.

LOL Mr Pyle, that was yesterday for me.

Easy 3D courses for recreational archers and tough 3D courses for competition archers. IMO if someone wants to use 3D course as hunting training tool should be some changes in the the scoring ( kill zone 5p, miss 0 points and foam -5 points) and keep the distances in 20 yards limit with natural obstacles and the option to not take the shot that will count as a miss 0 points.

I’m afraid Wild Bill wouldn’t have enjoyed the Cos Cob shoot so much, as Mike went out of his way to make things “interesting”... Which is ironic, since part of the fun for me was that I showed up with a decent supply of “expendable” arrows, most of which came from Bill’s arrow bucket...

But at a Fun Shoot, you take the shots you’re comfortable with and you’re free to make things as much more or less risky as you see fit.

I WILL say that the folks I saw having the best time were kids who had shown up with plenty of arrows and whose parents refused to let any lost or broken arrows put a damper on their enjoyment of a good attempt. My boys came home talking about how many arrows we should be making up for next time.... so maybe I’ll start getting some help on the project :D

I love the tough shoots. Been to too many that were all broadside out-in-the-open shots. I won't go into some of the toughest shots I've made. Unfortunately,with the exception of one,these clubs aren't around anymore.

Hey, Redhead - why don’t you recommend them on Pete’s thread about cool shots for 3D courses?

Doesn’t matter if you made ‘em or not - just fun to hear about good challenges...

Nothing kills a 3D shoot more then long waits while people look for lost arrows. Some of the shoots that I attend have the longer shots downhill so that if you do miss it is easy to find your arrow sticking up in the grass. The smaller, easier to miss targets like gophers usually have something behind them to stop a missed shot. If I am shooting good on a give day I will move back to the compound stakes but if I'm a bit off I have no problem moving in closer then the closest stake. Even at shoots with a lot of close targets I don't hear anyone saying that they shot a perfect score. I am talking about non competitive 3D shoots and I understand that the Smoker round is not for everyone but it can be a lot of fun. Our club used to have 2D targets on the shooting bails on the 28 field round targets. That was a lot of fun. You would shoot from a ribbon placed on a tree branch that might be shot from 10 yds. off into the woods through brush or in between some trees or a deer at 45 yds. You could let them fly and not worry about loosing an arrow.

I can’t help it.... a couple more pics from the Rock Shoot.....

I don't mind tough. I don't mind easy. I like a mix.

I just love to shoot.

All I really care about is, that there is an open/shootable hole to the kill zone.

Setting up shoots to intentionally trash arrows BEFORE they get to the target is a good way to run folks off, and never get them back.

If you trash an arrow due to a miss, well then that's on you. 8^)

Rick

I'd rather shoot in and around obstacles then just extended ranges. I not a fan of shoots that stretch out every shot. I like to step up to a peg and think "I'd take that shot"

Scotsman, I love your pics. Hopefully some day I'll get to go to a shoot like that. I like a mix of shots on a 3-D shoot. Those novelty courses should be hard but doable.

I don't mind the tight , but want them doable.Some say we set our course to easy but we have very very few clean it.We try and set up for the masses not the exceptional shooters, the cream will always rise to the top as far as scoring goes. We try and set a Hunting course, some complain but most like that we have found. From reading this it seems most want it tough/long and stuff in the way. Pappy

Pappy, no, thats not what folks are saying. The way I read the responses is that they want ‘interesting’ shots as opposed to boring, all wide open shots. Average shot distance at the Rock Shoot is 20 yards. If a shooter does not have confidence at any shot he or she can pass it or walk up without shame or embarrasment. It ‘s supposed to be fun, right?

I like shooting through "windows."

Topsy used to set some tough courses, I liked it,,

I been on a few tough dangerous coarses over the years and to me it wasn't fun having to be very cautious of falling on rocks or wet uneven ground when health was good. I liked challenging shots but then to go to get your arrow or worse if you missed your arrow was lost or broken that to me takes a lot out of the shot especially when you shoot purty arrows.

Now on the other side of things guys who set markers the same as Kid stakes making it to easy is no fun either. So we just shoot from the wheel bow stakes when that was experienced.

Don't think there's much in between and you have to take it as it comes at any shoot. Can't make everyone happy anyways someone is always going to wine about things anyways.

You want to do something for the shooters offer them some cheese at the club house so you can make it a wine and cheese party. LOL

From a 'fun' trad shoot I set up in 2016.

IBO legal, rules say the shooter gets the entire 8 ring.

Even within 'reasonable' distances you can do a lot with terrain, light/dark, not-quite-obstacles etc.

I liked the smoker concept so added something into this weekends 45 target memorial shoot, special stakes for non shooting friends that come and anything a bit tricky I put backstops behind the 3D.

I also made a six target trail shoot, where you can only see the target your shooting at that moment, you can shoot it or pass to next target but once you miss it's game over and cannot shoot anymore targets, it's a mix of pressure and a little strategy thinking as well.

I also have a couple of moving targets and some hunter/prey shots where If you hit the wrong target you get points deducted. My favorite is pouncing cat surrounded by scattering birds, shot from a tower.

It's going to be a fun tourney, it's taken me all week to set it up, I hope I have some energy left to shoot lol

I don't mind a tough shot,but a shot requiring you to really look to even find the target before you can shoot is a bit much in my opinion. How many of you here would shoot through a tangle of brush that looks like a screen door or a gap a couple of inches wide between two trees to try and hit the vitals game animal while hunting? A course doesn't need to be easy and wide open but at the same time should not be so difficult that un- ethical shots have to be tried.

Tough shooting, how about tough building, I designed and built 7 courses for WA3D Europeans (number of targets got smaller as tourney progressed) it took 6 months planning, the first day was toughest 8 of us built 2x24 courses (small 3D's were doubles) we did both courses in 2 Hours, on third day we had to dismantle old course and build new one in different location. The head judge said it was impossible with so few people as other tourneys the had 4 times the manpower. We did the impossible on schedule, except for the first day when domes crazy Russian started pulling 3D's out and chasing the Judges away, we had to call the Police lol

If it's optional and separate, then that's fine. The easiest way to turn away new shooters, or beginning shooters is with arrow-destroying setups.

I don't know about anyone else, but the reality of hunting for me is never shooting through thick brush, or weeds or around trees. If you do that, you're taking risky shots that you likely shouldn't take. In well over fifty years I've never make a shot that I wasn't sure could hit the vitals.

As for shoots, if it's working for the club and not hurting attendance, well then you are golden. If your regular shoots are "boring", then maybe you need to change angles more often or offer a couple longer shots.

A fun shoot you may try, in addition to the 3D, that won't cost a lot of money for different targets, would be a paper NFAA animal round, scored as a one-arrow round per their rules. You could set up 14 targets relatively inexpensively, and the targets themselves can be glued on cardboard for more shooting life. 2D can be as much fun as 3D when set up right, and is a lot cheaper for the clubs after initial butts are made.

Very well said George! Me myself, I'm ok with any course, but have seen a few beginners shy away from those arrow buster courses.

Our smoker rounds were novelty shoot in the evening after the shoot was over. 10 small animals at close range with fairly large groups of shooters. The challenge was more about getting thru all the targets with your arrow intact. I used to carry 1 2419 just for breaki.g arrows,lol. You take turns going first after drawing a score card to see who leads off. Very few arrows made it till the end but we used arrows we expected might get broke. All targets were wide open.

Sorry, 10 to 20 yards for smoker. I was range cept at our club for about 7 or 8 years. My courses were interesting with moderate difficulty but you had to think. Like one target I would set a couple times per year looked wide open but the arc would put you into overhanging brush. But if you use your head and went down to one knee it was wide open. I set 1 40 harder usually and 1 5 harder. The 5 was usually chipmonks with a kill drawn around a quarter. Guys with sights usually had probs with that one.

Range cpt

The thing is whether you are talking about tough for you, or just everyone else. If you are shooting an open field of archers, and no handicap, then the best shooters are just pretending to rise to a challenge, while others are floundering. If the course is properly set up then everyone would shoot the same score regardless of ability. We do this to some extent with stakes. But if there is only one stake based on say that you shoot trad, then the challenge is not leveled out

Not saying that if you shot a great score on a hard course that one shouldn't be proud, but if you outclass the course then it isn't the triumph of your mental game that is on display.

Golf has many of the same kinds of issues and a whole literature and science devoted to creating different experiences for different levels and strengths of player.

One basic concept in of a course being "penal". A course that is penal is one where if you make a mistake you pay a penalty. Sounds good by it is generally regarded as being bad golf course design. A better design will reward or punish different approaches. This is harder to do in archery. But examples might be of screening a high scoring area of the target, so that if you go for it, you run a risk of loosing out, but there is an easy shot available. However anything that involves screening targets puts an element of luck and penalty into the shot, which is not really good design.

It's tough getting it right for all archers, given the relatively limited nature of our gear and targets.

We didn't have equipment classes. We had c ,b ,a ,and aa. You began in c till you won or made your second year then you went to b. From there on you stayed in a class till you won. The records were kept to prevent cheating plus everyone knew who belonged where. We had an on a shoot at a district club every weekend and usually had from 90 to 120 shooters.

Some very interesting responses, well thought out and based on a lot of experience. But the only point of the original post was to ask what you like or do not like about courses, easy shots or hard shots. For me, I love the though shots, but I agree with others when they say they hate waiting for long periods while people hunt for lost arrows..........a double edged sword for me!

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