Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Jack Howard measurements

Messages posted to thread:
B_Crabaugh 12-Apr-18
Jeff Durnell 12-Apr-18
Buckdancer 12-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 12-Apr-18
Pdiddly 12-Apr-18
Kelly 12-Apr-18
Kelly 12-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 12-Apr-18
Joe2Crow 12-Apr-18
Pdiddly 12-Apr-18
Todd the archer 12-Apr-18
Pdiddly 12-Apr-18
Pdiddly 12-Apr-18
fdp 12-Apr-18
Kelly 12-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 12-Apr-18
Pdiddly 13-Apr-18
BigHorn 13-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 13-Apr-18
Buckdancer 13-Apr-18
Pdiddly 13-Apr-18
BigHorn 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
Kelly 13-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 13-Apr-18
Monte 13-Apr-18
fdp 13-Apr-18
Gun 13-Apr-18
Pdiddly 13-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 14-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 14-Apr-18
Kelly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 14-Apr-18
Todd the archer 14-Apr-18
Kelly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
Pdiddly 14-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 16-Apr-18
Pdiddly 16-Apr-18
BigHorn 16-Apr-18
BigHorn 16-Apr-18
BigHorn 16-Apr-18
B_Crabaugh 18-Apr-18
BigHorn 18-Apr-18
From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 12-Apr-18

B_Crabaugh's embedded Photo



Hello, Jack Howard enthusiasts! I am doing a little research about the Gamemaster bow. I am looking for some measurements. Unfortunately, I do not own one (yet!). I've included a photo of what I'm lookin for. Now, if you have a gamemaster you want to send me and have me send back to you within a few days, that's even better! Thanks!

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-Apr-18




Wow, that looks like a LOT of positive tiller.

From: Buckdancer
Date: 12-Apr-18




Well on mine riser fade to fade 27 3/4. . Limb above fade is 1-3/4. By the tip 5/8 .string length contact 2-3/4 with a 6 inch brace hight .

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 12-Apr-18




That was FAST. Thanks so much. What's the poundage? I know his bows are usually 3lbs heavier than marked...

From: Pdiddly
Date: 12-Apr-18




I will measure mine tonight...interesting to see any variances.

From: Kelly
Date: 12-Apr-18




Well since the bottom picture is of a bow I used to own I can give you some answers about the other two I still own-one could be for sale.

The riser length, limb width at widest part and limb width at thinnest/narrowest part will be the same on all of Jacks Gamemasters since he preshaped his handle and glass before glue up. Then used a pattern maker for final shaping. He varied the bow weights by using different thickness glass/maple lams. of which he spined per his own method. Then used past records to develope a formula for the customers specific requirements of bow weight and draw length.

Ok in answer to the question of length of string contact at limb that will depend upon the brace height used. The higher the brace height the lesser the string contact and vice versa. Jack preferred a lower brace height. One does not need to string up one of my bows to get you that measurement. Just measure the length from limb tips to end of string groove, which I will do for you.

FYI, with all recurves one should never have a bow braced where the end of this string groove can not be seen(braced too low) nor see too much of it(braced too high). About 1/8" is just perfect.

From: Kelly
Date: 12-Apr-18




Riser length should be 28". Jack had very thin fadeouts on his handles.

Limb width at widest point is actually 2" but glass is only 1 3/4". Reason that the wood lams are wider than the glass comes from the understanding that wood will dent but glass will chip. it is far better to put a dent in the wood than a chip in the glass, structually speaking. Years ago most all bows were made this way. Not so much that way these days.

Limb width at narrowest point just at the tip overlay is 5/8".

Jack measure brace height differently than everyone else. He measured to the shortest point of the riser-usually this is the belly portion of lower limb right where the glass ends at the heel of grip. Mine all use Jack's original strings and they both are braced at 6 1/4" as measured the above way.

The length of string contact as you requested is 2 3/4" from the end of limb but actual string contact is just a tad over 2", about 2 1/8" nearest I can measure with a straight device over the curve. I can just barely see the end of string groove on both my bows.

I've had many of Jacks bows over the past 40 or so years. They are all the same as far as surface measurements go because of the way he did things with the machines that he used/made to build precisely the same bow. The only differences were on the inside with his use of different thickness lams and glass that was all spined.

Jack was a meticulous person when it came to building his bows and he would not change his ways. One of those was the way he measured bow weight. He hunt the bow from a scale via the string. Then zeroed out the scale for the weight of the bow. Then pulled down on the handle till 28" draw was acheived and recorded that weight. This is why all of his bows are heavier than the recorded weight by the mass weight of the bow itself.

The two bows I have are 41# and 46#. The bow in the bottom picture was 50# as they were on them by Jack. Although I have never actually weighed either of these bows (have weighed many other Gamemaster's and Gamemaster Jet's over the years to know) They all are heavier than marked. On the Gamemaster not quite 3# heavier. On the Gamemaster Jet about 3.5# heavier because of the massive Brazilian Rosewood handles they contained.

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 12-Apr-18




This is all extremely helpful information. Getting everything together to build my first laminated bow and I'm taking inspiration from some of my favorite bows from the old days. I would LOVE to own an original Gamemaster deluxe, but have never ground one less than $400. Keep the info (and photos if you have them)!

From: Joe2Crow
Date: 12-Apr-18




I don't believe the Gamemasters will pull 3 pounds above the marked weight because they don't weigh anywhere near 3 pounds. They are much lighter than a Jet. My gamemaster is marked 50# and pulls about 51.5# @ 28" on my digital scale. And apparently, not all Jets will pull 3 pounds more than marked either. I have 3 Jets and 2 of the 3 do indeed pull approx. 3 pounds more than marked. But the third one is marked 56# and pulls about 57.5# @ 28" (with no signs of having been sanded).

From: Pdiddly
Date: 12-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Mine is 60#...dimensions as related by Kelly.

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 12-Apr-18




If trying to duplicate a jet keep in mind the laminations were thinner in the middle and were slightly thicker at the riser and at the tips.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 12-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Don't know how much this one was shot...very clean.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 12-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



From: fdp
Date: 12-Apr-18




The main thing that made Jack's bows have the feeling that they do is the glass to wood ratio's that he used. It has very little to do with anything else, except possibly the working limb length.

JAck had a very specific formula that he used for draw weight ranges. He also had a particular way of altering the ratio's of glass to wood as draw length increased or decreased.

In addition, Jack had his own ideas about epoxy. And his ideas don't neccessarily align with ahwt is "mainstream" today.

Like Kelly said, he was meticulous.

From: Kelly
Date: 12-Apr-18




Todd the Archer, very astute observation. That is a compound taper and all the Jets contained one. He then adjusted the thickness of the other lamination which was parallel to get the desired poundage via his glass/wood ratio formula. Each piece of glass and maple lam were spiked by Jack.

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 12-Apr-18




"If trying to duplicate a jet keep in mind the laminations were thinner in the middle and were slightly thicker at the riser and at the tips." Todd, that is VERY interesting. So, sort of a reverse barrel taper??

Kelly, can you post a photo of the bow unstrung? I'd also love a close-up of the limbs from the side to get a ballpark of the glass to wood ratio. It would also be helpful to get a measurement of the the limb thickness from the side in the end of the limbs toward the tip and a measurement of the limbs right in the middle. That would possibly shine a light on the "reverse barrel taper" as I'm calling it. Thanks again everyone!

From: Pdiddly
Date: 13-Apr-18




The limb thickness on my Gamemaster is .260-.257 from the fades to the recurve. No measureable taper at all. Lams are single thickness.

I don't have a Gamemaster Jet so perhaps they had the taper.

The first application of lams tapered in two directions that I know of was with Howatt.

Beginning in 1961, Howatt made limb lams for the Hunter that were thickest in the mid-point of the limb, thinned towards the recurve, then increased in thickness through the recurve.

From: BigHorn
Date: 13-Apr-18




I have a jet on the way to me. Do you really need a tip to tip stringer or will a conventional stringer work?

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 13-Apr-18




See now we are getting somewhere. It appears that Jack first used the compound taped on his Jet bows and wasn't used on the Gamemaster Deluxe. Would still love to see a photo of the bow unstrung.

From: Buckdancer
Date: 13-Apr-18




Big horn . Tip to tip is easier. Don't know why but a selway is tough . In my paperwork from Kelly .jack stated a selway type Stringer puts uneven stress on the limbs

From: Pdiddly
Date: 13-Apr-18




I will post a picture of my bow unstrung...

From: BigHorn
Date: 13-Apr-18




Thanks. Ill postwhenmine arrives as well

From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



The Gamemaster Jet had the "Master" lam in it. its thinnest point is mid limb. Sorry, I don't own any Jets anymore so someone else will need to take measurements, pictures, etc.

The Gamemaster had parallel lams, two pair.

Difference between Gamemaster and Gamemaster Deluxe is the pistol grip, the Gamemaster had a straight grip-more like a longbow.

Jack harvested most of his animals with the Gamemaster Deluxe. A couple of his biggest elk were killed with Gamemaster Jet.

From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



Here are Jacks Personal bows, 54# & 57#. His preferred arrow was a swaged 2114. At one time Jack was a top notch NFAA shooter giving the top California shooters a run for it. One of those shooters was Hugh Rich. Jack shot with a sight all the time and hunted with it to. At some time he developed the dreaded "TP" so like Howard Hill did, he had to make up his mind to be either a target shooter or hunter. He chose being a hunter and excelled at it, bagging many mule deer at long distances in Nevada and California.

From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



From: Kelly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Kelly's embedded Photo



This is the only known picture of Jack drawing his Gamemaster Jet.

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 13-Apr-18




Kelly, those pages are a great source of information! Do you have a scanner? It would be fantastic to put them on here in higher resolution. If you don't, would you be willing to mail them to me so I can scan them and convert them to a downloadable PDF document? There is so little info out there about Jack and his bows, it would be good to get it all in one place.

From: Monte
Date: 13-Apr-18




Now those are some great memories. I think I can even see the razor blades glued to his famous three blade head in that picture Kelly.

From: fdp
Date: 13-Apr-18




Kelly, I thought there was a picture out there floating around of Jack, from the other side, not in hunting clothes?

I'll have to look and see if I have a copy of it in my library.

From: Gun
Date: 13-Apr-18

Gun's embedded Photo



Here's the razor blades

From: Pdiddly
Date: 13-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here is my Gamemaster unstrung, as requested.

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 14-Apr-18




Right next to a Chaparral! That's my main bow right now and I love it. Basing a lite of my new bow design on it. Those Gamemaster Kim's are so sand straight! I had no idea!

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 14-Apr-18




"Those limbs are so dang straight". Autocorrect is gonna be the end of us

From: Kelly
Date: 14-Apr-18




That is where the speed comes from with limb tips in front of riser.

Look at that Chaparral, huge recurves but lots of deflection of handle, so much so that limb tips are even with front of riser.

Sure the chaparral will be easier to shoot with that deflection riser but the Gamemaster will be faster. At least that is what Jack Howard guaranteed, Worlds Fastest Bow, and no one ever disputed that advertising. Jack was a speed freak as a bow hunter.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18




Kelly...I thought you'd notice the early 60's 62" Swift Wing beside the Chaparral!

Sorry for the visual distraction...just moved a few bows to take a picture of the Gamemaster.

Also, I have always strung my Gamemaster (and dozens of other bows) with a Selway without issue. Jack may have advocated push-pull but I like my eyes in my sockets!

I do shoot the Gamemaster from time to time...it is steady and points well. The 66" length is helpful concerning those issues.

But it is not my preferred style of bow for hunting in northern Quebec and Ontario. Too long for thick bush.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18




Just to the left of the Gamemaster is a Martin Saber, a very fast bow of a similar design to the Gamemaster with dead straight limbs.

The Saber is different in that it has the double taper laminations that are used to stiffen the recurve to tip portion of the limb.

Larry Hatfield said the Saber was one of favourite designs and he designed it to emulate the late 50's Howatt's.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here's a picture of the two bows unstrung...

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



And the two of them strung...

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 14-Apr-18




Great info on the Sabre. Yeah those limb profiles are dang near identical! PDiddly, I have a last request. Can you string the bow backwards and take a pic and measure the distance from the string to the front of the riser? That will tell me how far forward those limb tips are. Thank you!

From: Todd the archer Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 14-Apr-18

Todd the archer's embedded Photo



My jet

From: Kelly
Date: 14-Apr-18




Peter I did notice that bow but not as a Wing. Thought it was an early Browning. Never seen a Swift Wing without horns/points on front of handle like BW’s.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here you go Kelly...62" and 70#. Part of Canada's missile defence system!!

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Poor light... need to take it outside and take some better pics and shoot some big arrows out of it.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Small tips that are really deep in profile to take the strain.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18




With the tips lightly touching the wall the distance between the highest point in the riser and the wall is 2 7/8". The distance from the tip end to the string groove is 5/8".

So the distance you seek is 2 1/4".

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 14-Apr-18




That's about what I would have guessed. So much great info here!

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Thought I'd take it out and make a few shots.

It hits where one is looking if they do the job.

The shot of the face with just the dark glass and how it blends with the phenolic on the riser is nice!

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Closer view...it likes 2115's with 145 grain heads.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Belly and the label...I don't know what glass he used but it does not have any finish issues.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



The specs...in the brochure that Kelly posted with the specs for each bow I noticed the first one was 293. This is E-292...just missed seeing the details on this one!

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Apr-18

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Whoops...it was 203...never mind! ;>)

Here's the whole bow...thanks.

From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 16-Apr-18




Pdiddly, that is one handsome bow! No matter if I make an amazing copy/Gamemaster inspired bow, I'm gonna need to pick up the real thing at some point!

From: Pdiddly
Date: 16-Apr-18




They are quite striking in their appearance...they were made with great care using quality materials.

BTW...reread my post and I goofed in my description referring to the black glass being on the face...I meant to write "back."

From: BigHorn
Date: 16-Apr-18

BigHorn's embedded Photo



As promised

From: BigHorn
Date: 16-Apr-18

BigHorn's embedded Photo



From: BigHorn
Date: 16-Apr-18

BigHorn's embedded Photo



From: B_Crabaugh
Date: 18-Apr-18




Now that thing right there is gorgeous!!!

From: BigHorn
Date: 18-Apr-18




?? Ive only had it a couple of days and am superimpressed jacks bows are on a different level from anything ive shot.





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