Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


How many release methods are there?

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Messages posted to thread:
David A. 10-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 10-Apr-18
longbowguy 10-Apr-18
Draven 10-Apr-18
fdp 10-Apr-18
LKH 10-Apr-18
Longbow 10-Apr-18
David A. 11-Apr-18
Phil 11-Apr-18
Nick Muche 11-Apr-18
David A. 11-Apr-18
Phil 11-Apr-18
Nick Muche 11-Apr-18
Bowguy 11-Apr-18
Kent Alan 11-Apr-18
Kent Alan 11-Apr-18
oldgoat 11-Apr-18
Kent Alan 11-Apr-18
Phil 11-Apr-18
Kent Alan 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
Kent Alan 11-Apr-18
TrapperKayak 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
Kent Alan 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
The Whittler 11-Apr-18
George D. Stout 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
Phil 11-Apr-18
zetabow 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
zetabow 11-Apr-18
Dan W 11-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 11-Apr-18
RymanCat 11-Apr-18
PECO 11-Apr-18
Dan W 11-Apr-18
Bowmania 11-Apr-18
Draven 11-Apr-18
Bowmania 11-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 11-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 11-Apr-18
badgerman 11-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
Phil 12-Apr-18
Draven 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
Twisted Branch 12-Apr-18
SteveBNY 12-Apr-18
twostrings 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
Twisted Branch 12-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 12-Apr-18
twostrings 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
Gary Miller 12-Apr-18
Kent Alan 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
badgerman 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
Draven 12-Apr-18
RymanCat 12-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
JRW 12-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 12-Apr-18
2 bears 12-Apr-18
SteveBNY 12-Apr-18
Twisted Branch 12-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 12-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 12-Apr-18
The Whittler 12-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 12-Apr-18
Draven 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
Rick Barbee 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
David A. 12-Apr-18
2 bears 13-Apr-18
zetabow 13-Apr-18
Phil 13-Apr-18
Draven 13-Apr-18
David A. 13-Apr-18
Missouribreaks 13-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 13-Apr-18
2 bears 13-Apr-18
badgerman 13-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 13-Apr-18
Dan W 13-Apr-18
David A. 13-Apr-18
Draven 13-Apr-18
Draven 13-Apr-18
David A. 14-Apr-18
oldgoat 14-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 14-Apr-18
2 bears 14-Apr-18
zetabow 15-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 15-Apr-18
zetabow 15-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 15-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 15-Apr-18
Elderly OCR 15-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 15-Apr-18
David A. 15-Apr-18
zetabow 15-Apr-18
Dan W 15-Apr-18
Bob Rowlands 15-Apr-18
Sinner 15-Apr-18
zetabow 16-Apr-18
David A. 16-Apr-18
zetabow 16-Apr-18
David A. 16-Apr-18
Draven 16-Apr-18
monkeyball 16-Apr-18
From: David A.
Date: 10-Apr-18




In your opinion, how many release methods are there?

Generally with glove or tab I would say basically one or two...1) varying ratio of pushing (from very little to a lot) with bow arm while pulling with back tension with relaxation of the the fingers 2) static release with relaxation of the fingers. Actually 2) could be considered a continum of 1) just less pulling after anchor.

Snap shooting/release would fall somewhere in the 1) category continum.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 10-Apr-18




Why would you limit things to glove and tab when you're allowed to do whatever you want and call it a release?

Primary, Secondary, Tertiary, Mediterranean, 2 finger, Sassanid, Thumb, Ishi style thumb draw, Thumb draw with string loop, Strap relaese, Hook and loop, "The talon" etc. Some guys even have to use their teeth.

From: longbowguy
Date: 10-Apr-18




About a thousand. - lbg

From: Draven
Date: 10-Apr-18




David I will play along on the "release" word and mental commands. You have: 1. "Let go" release 2. "Relax your fingers" release 3. "Open your fingers" release 4. "Resistance is futile" release 5. "Surrender" release

1., 2. and 3. are beginner's release. 4.and 5. are advanced archer's release

From: fdp
Date: 10-Apr-18




Well.....there are 2 complete books on different styles of finger placement and release from through out history and around the world.

So the answer is a bunch.

From: LKH Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Apr-18




I've got a thumb ring given to me by Dr Bert Grayson. Wish it fit me. Might shoot better if it did.

From: Longbow Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Apr-18




3657

From: David A.
Date: 11-Apr-18




Right, I have book somewhere on release methods used throughout history, but I meant in the context of modern archery with GLOVE/TAB. Sorry, I should have specified that.

From: Phil
Date: 11-Apr-18




Longbow, I think your number is a little high, 3214 maybe, but 3657 is a little on the high side. ... just my opinion of course :) :)

From: Nick Muche
Date: 11-Apr-18




David what do you know about the STAR method?

From: David A.
Date: 11-Apr-18




Draven, I understand.

From: Phil
Date: 11-Apr-18




David, are you going to answer Nicks question?

From: Nick Muche
Date: 11-Apr-18




Why the overwhelming/obtuse apprehension to sharing such a revolutionary technique with the community you so closely align with, bowhunters and archers?

You must only care about yourself and not the betterment of our community.

You've been singing the same song and dance for over a decade.

From: Bowguy Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-Apr-18




One. The rest is wasted/incorrect energy/form

From: Kent Alan
Date: 11-Apr-18




Phil and Nick Muche---not to be a jerk, but even though there may be some---even many---that have issues with David A., there have been a few like Draven and Elderly OCR and fdp who have made legitimate comments regarding a subject that can, at times, be the bane of all traditional archers.

So for the sake of the possibility of someone potentially gleaning some useful information...

From: Kent Alan
Date: 11-Apr-18




Bowguy: "One. The rest is wasted/incorrect energy/form"

Explain please. Do you mean one FORM of release is the only correct one or that one segment of the release PROCESS is the correct one?

From: oldgoat
Date: 11-Apr-18




Innumerable ways every time I go to the range!

From: Kent Alan
Date: 11-Apr-18




Tell me about it oldgoat. Still trying to pro/con static vs coming back-touching ear

From: Phil
Date: 11-Apr-18




Kent, you're absolutely correct, I apologize unreservedly to those who wish to discuss the topic.

From: Kent Alan
Date: 11-Apr-18




Good deal Phil. Much appreciated, especially considering the fact that my release isn't the greatest---and I am inclined to think that spending a few thousand shots working on release alone might be beneficial...

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




If the alignment at full draw is correct the release path is not important because the hand movement it should be a reaction of the body when the bow pressure is no more. If the string fingers are in same place every time and they act the same way when the string rips through them shooting accurate is not an issue. This are the facts. How to achieve that is what David is trying to quantify

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 11-Apr-18




Where (Specifically Hooking) the string with the digits (fingers) of the hand, (excluding the thumb), and while using a Tab, Glove, or (Bare Fingers *not recommended*) are concerned.

There are three different ways to get those digits off the string:

(1) A "Conscious/Deliberate" relaxing/opening of the digits.

(2) A "Subconscious Triggering" of relaxation of the digits either from:

(A) Force applied in the load on those digits

(B) A trained, practiced, and ingrained "touch trigger"

(3) By using a STAR Method (*********** ***** ********* Release).

It's not for me to share the STAR method, but I know what it is, and know that it works.

Without naming it I have "privately" (in one on one coaching sessions) shared the STAR method with a couple of older shooters needing some help to overcome stiff arthritic fingers, AND it helped them "a lot".

It helped, and works for me too, but I'm not old & arthritic. LOL

David A. can share it (or not) as it were. Up to him entirely.

What Ya say David? Get off your stump. 8^)

Rick

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




These are the facts*

From: Kent Alan
Date: 11-Apr-18




You know Draven, I think you may have stated what my problem is, and it manifests itself at the pre-release stage---"If the alignment at full draw is correct"

From: TrapperKayak
Date: 11-Apr-18




IMO, there are as many release methods as there are archers releasing.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




Alan, there are 2 "school of thought" from what I understand reading forums where hunters and target archers are mixing. One states: "anchor is a place on your face the fingers should touch every time". Second states: "anchor is when your back muscles are engaged". Followers of the 1st are preaching "the anchor is corner of the mouth". Followers of the 2nd are preaching "if your back muscles are engaged you will see that the fingers will touch the corner of the mouth if you want to make THAT place your anchor point". Which is talking about alignment and which is not?

From: Kent Alan
Date: 11-Apr-18




Well Draven, if you really wanted to go into it, anchor could also be construed as "that point at which you have the bow 'locked on target'"

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




I am of another school of thought which is instinctive btw. I don't lock the bow on target, I "lock the ARROW on target" through the bow hand elevation and anchor position. The bow is just the spring that sends it in the target.

From: The Whittler
Date: 11-Apr-18




It should become a natural thing with practice, a lot of practice. Everyone has their own way it just takes a LOT of practice. Don't get me wrong I believe we all have the ability for a good release and always be up to try different ways.

As for how many types, as many as there are archers. We all our own unique way/twist.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Apr-18




Whatever the loose, it's only as good as the bow arm allows it to be. I think the latter is the most important of those two dynamics. I have had a great loose (for me) and a slip of the bow arm made it pretty ugly. I've also had suspect releases that turned out not so bad because the bow arm stayed put. When they work well together it's a great day.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




It's quite normal George, the bow hand is the "fat lady" of the show. It's responsible with where the arrow goes. If I am remembering correct Jim Ploen was saying at release the arrow slides for cca 6" on the riser before starting to bend around the riser. A movement there is sending the arrow off. A mistake in the release but with a riser steady when the arrow passes + a weaker arrow will not be that bad shot if the distance to the target is enough.

From: Phil
Date: 11-Apr-18




Rick said

"(1) A "Conscious/Deliberate" relaxing/opening of the digits."

Rick, all the peer reviewed studies investigating the muscular activity of the hand at arrow release shows active extension of Extensor Digitorum (the muscle used to open the fingers). All the EMG data shows the characteristic pre activation spike associated with deliberate muscle activity.. The multiple studies range from novice to elite archers.

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Apr-18




A bad release for me normally has errors front and back so no saying it with strong front end.

Biggest errors for me is anticipating the realease, so I have what I like to call the "no release, release" keeping cognative input to an absolute minimum.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




Zeta, I was listening KSL in a long movie and he was talking about One Consciousness before being called Subconsciousness. It was a replacement in terms because Subconsciousness was easier to explain : one in opposition of the other. The tests are showing exactly what it is: a conscious action of the shooter without conscious awareness. Now how much is the level of awareness is up to the archer. If he shoots animals or moving things, he is more aware of his release because his brain timed the arrow arrival at destination with the time of release. This is my understanding.

From: zetabow
Date: 11-Apr-18




Not easy to articulate exactly what's going on but if my release is triggered by tip getting to the spot (SW so tip is my pin sight) it's a bad release, what I'm doing is waiting for a stable float in the spot and waiting for the release to happen.

If I struggle to get tip in the spot or hold a stable float with a rushed feeling the release is always poor, it's like I know it won't be a good shot and something inside me isn't letting the shot continue, I have to have this feeling I can hold indefinitely if I wanted, so my release is triggered by the float and not reaching aim, after +1 second of controlled float the shot just happens.

From: Dan W
Date: 11-Apr-18




"If I struggle to get tip in the spot or hold a stable float with a rushed feeling the release is always poor,"

"I have to have this feeling I can hold indefinitely if I wanted,"

ZETA, I concur 100%; and I sometimes experience the exact same thing when practicing; much more shooting RH than LH. (Dom. left eye)

But- it sounds more like the difference between TP and controlled shooting, rather than a definition of a release method, per se.

I am a FIRM believer in the words & method of Byron Ferguson, who of course says it much better than I can:

"Release is a bad term. I don't particularly like it. 'Release' means that we have to do something, that there is a motion or a job to be done. In reality, ALL WE ARE DOING IS TO QUIT HOLDING THE BOWSTRING. We don't do anything; we quit doing something. We cannot mentally throw those three fingers open fast enough to clear the string cleanly, the best we can hope for is to relax the fingers and let the string push them out of the way."

-For me, that transcends everything. Even applies to my release when shooting Asiatic styles with the thumb release. Mr. Ferguson goes on for a bit more in that chapter on HOW to relax those fingers; all of which and more can be found in his book, "Become the Arrow"

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 11-Apr-18




But as Phil notes the act of ceasing to do one thing requires action from another. The body still tries to assist the relaxation of flexors by use of the extensors.

From: RymanCat
Date: 11-Apr-18




How about we pick one and practice it and perfect it so we aren't troubling ourselves and keep it simple.

This is how TP creeps in on others I believe by having to much stuff in our heads.

From: PECO
Date: 11-Apr-18




Two. A good release and a bad release.

From: Dan W
Date: 11-Apr-18




Elderly- good point, of course. For me, it's the back tension thing; as I squeeze the draw side upper back muscles ("action from another") I "cease to hold the bowstring" -and the actual release of the string just happens as my draw hand continues back.

Continuing Byron Ferguson's thoughts from where I left off above:

"there have been any number of ways talked about or written about as to how one does that. Most common advice is to relax the back of the hand, which is a good start. Some instructors advise relaxing the hand and forearm, which is better. I suggest you learn to RELEASE YOUR WHOLE BODY SIDE. This something you may not have heard much about. You will find that your arrows will fly better and much faster. Your release will be moreconsistent. You will know that you have accomplished this when the fingers of your release hand touch your shoulder on the release side. You know then that you have relaxed that whole side"

-and there is a pic of Byron; draw hand limp, relaxed, fingers touching his shoulder- as we have seen countless times from fine shooters including Arne Moe in his great video lessons.

Byron's book- that entire chapter- helped me immensely; and yet it's interesting to note that I see no reference to the back tension business! Earlier on, before he talks of the release, he does mention that one "never stops pulling" -and to keep pushing the bow arm forward- but he does not mention the back muscles!

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Apr-18




I'd say a 100. OR two as in above.

I think the question would be better put (??????) with how many ways to initiate a good release. And maybe stealing a bit from Rick McKenny, I'd say two.

OP mentions snap shooting - that's only good if you want to get tp down the road. I only mention that because one of the good ways to initiate a good release is similar.

Here's the sequence: draw-anchor-transfer-aim/expand-release. Now to define. Think of the 'J'. Somewhere around 'anchor' and 'transfer' the elbow starts going to the rear (bottom part of the "J"). So the 'release' that's closest to snap shooting is the above done with one continual movement.

The diff between the snap and what I'm describing is that the snap hits anchor and the arrow is gone. What I'm describing is a gradual slow down of the movement. 'Draw' is done fairly fast, once you hit 'anchor' it slows down immensely to the point of release is internal.

The second is a release (back to above sequence) that at 'aim' there is a pause and then a start to expand to release.

I think the second is most accurate, but also the hardest. Once you relax those muscles it's very hard to engage them again.

I usually explain both methods and suggest going for the former. The latter is only for the very experienced.

So does that make the first one better than the second, leaving the first the best? Well, probably there is only one best for you.

Bowmania

From: Draven
Date: 11-Apr-18




"You will know that you have accomplished this when the fingers of your release hand touch your shoulder on the release side. You know then that you have relaxed that whole side"

THIS is the reason a lot of new archers are touching the shoulder without actually relaxing enough or at all. Thank you for pointing the source.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Apr-18




I think it would be better put to say a right handed shooter ends with his fingers behind his right ear. That said you don't have a newby using his shoulder as a second anchor.

Bowmania

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 11-Apr-18




For me, when my loose is off/bad, everything else dominoes to bad right along with it.

When I have a good loose, I can get away with (to some degree) doing other things wrong.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 11-Apr-18




I have a very deliberate, and static loose. It happens when I'm ready for it.

Using the STAR method just makes it happen more smooth/fluid. It's almost like squeezing a button, or trigger, but it's all done with the fingers.

Rick

From: badgerman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 11-Apr-18




There's more to David than the STAR method which is a very innovative approach. I've shot with David while in Arizona and was impressed by his knowledge of traditional archery, and looking for ways to make our sport more usable for all, whether old and handicapped, or young and vigorous. David's a real stand-up guy and I hope I will get the opportunity to shoot and share with him again sometime in the near future. Joel

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Thanks, Joel I appreciate your comment.

Rick, they'll never get it, the secret has been there for 70,000 yrs. Let's not say more though, lol. Anyway, I no longer shoot with tab or glove. I think my later work is better and that early technique is just part of the whole.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Maybe the secret is first in some other part of the body before the fingers? Tongue? Eyes? Oh, the mystery.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Regardless, the mind controls x which controls y which causes the loose. Conscious? Subconscious? You have to decide. Or not. Every response has a stimulus. What starts a chain reaction? Tightening of this causes loosening of that. Or is it vice versa?

From: Phil
Date: 12-Apr-18




David,

Would you please be kind enough to explain the STAR method of arrow release to the members of this forum.

thanking you in anticipation

From: Draven
Date: 12-Apr-18




Actually I don’t think David should say a thing about STAR. Trying to convince someone who’s against the person with the idea that the idea is good is waste of time. When the motto is KISS and everything deeper than general banalities is ignored I see STAR revealed just an open can of worms. I know what it is but I don’t use it since I developed my own method.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




David, I have an excellent clear picture of a Thylacine taken by a friend who was travelling through the New Guinea to Tasmania region.

They just thought it was an unusual animal and didn't realize the significance of it.

From: Twisted Branch
Date: 12-Apr-18




I wish someone would explain the Star method to me. Hopefully I can start shooting again in a week or so with a 25# bow. I need all the help I can get! Come on guys...I can keep a secret too! Chuck

From: SteveBNY
Date: 12-Apr-18




Phil quote: "David, Would you please be kind enough to explain the STAR method of arrow release to the members of this forum.

thanking you in anticipation"

Not going to happen. He's made a 10+ year career of teasing it. Shame since he may have some good advice. Impossible to understand 10+ years of talking about it without saying a word. Could have written a couple complete novels with all the typing involved in not saying anything.

From: twostrings
Date: 12-Apr-18




The release can become conceptually simple and operationally possible once one applies Quantum Mechanics to the matter. If you can squash down the quantum probability wave of the string hand to dead flat it will have the same chance of existing in one place as any other place, thus the string hand will be everywhere and nowhere. After the string passes through the space once occupied by your hand you merely re-concentrate its quantum probability wave and reach for your next arrow. Could this be the arcanum known as the Star? I'm not at liberty to say.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Just ignore my work or non work, that's not what the thread is about. Thx.

From: Twisted Branch
Date: 12-Apr-18




Thanks twostrings...I think I’ve got it now. I squashed my thumb dead flat with a hammer one time when I drank... and my hand was everywhere and nowhere I wanted it to be. I re-concentrated the quantum probability wave and reached for a beer. So I understand the concept. Said a few arcanums too. LOL

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 12-Apr-18




lol twostrings.

I could have read Polish, Chinese, and Sioux translations of 'War and Peace' in the STAR era. In fact I think a new age should be added. You got your bronze age, your iron age, and now your STAR age.

From: twostrings
Date: 12-Apr-18




I live to serve.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




"Just ignore my work or non work, that's not what the thread is about. Thx"

Don't worry, I wasn't going to actually show you the picture. I just wanted to let you know I have it.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




But you wouldn't be telling the truth. I've told the truth all along...

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




Prove it.

From: Gary Miller
Date: 12-Apr-18




You guys are out of control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, but funny anyway.

From: Kent Alan
Date: 12-Apr-18




This is getting back to being needlessly acrimonious...

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




For the love of God, man..

https://youtu.be/9IrWyZ0KZuk

From: badgerman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 12-Apr-18




To be clear the part of the STAR method that David showed me has nothing to do with relaxing and\or squeezing cycles. When David releases his method you will see that it encompasses a vast array of techniques to numerous to list. Joel

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




If they are too numerous to list then it's pretty obvious that it will never be released.

Like book on counting to infinity. Nobody needs that.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Apr-18




The opinion is you don't need back tension either unless you are a target archer so what he is proposing is not something needed.

From: RymanCat
Date: 12-Apr-18




I just invented a new wheel today want to see it? Hold up now your going to have to pay to play.

Why not isn't that what the world is coming too? LOL

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Apr-18




What concerns me is:

When there those, such as Joel/(badgerman), myself, and several other who have indeed witnessed David's STAR methods first hand, and have stated as such - Why are there those who still call BS on it's reality?

Are we all liars?

I have boxes full of stuff David has sent to me, and page after page of emails I have saved, and notes I have written through conversations with him. I could almost (almost) write the book myself. 8^)

David is a "Good Friend", but I too think he needs to "Get Off His Duff", and "Get This Stuff Released".

He knows how I feel about it. I've spoken to him privately about it several times.

The seminar he has conducted, and future seminars he has plans for are definitely steps in the right direction. Let's give credit where credit is due.

Rick

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




Rick, it's just gone too far into some sort of secret society. Now David has a select bunch propagating the same sort of "I've got an ice cream and you can't have it".

People are just tired of it all.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Apr-18




Patrick, you need to read what I said "again".

Rick

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




Too little too late.

From: JRW
Date: 12-Apr-18




I thought the powers that be took this horse out behind the barn and shot it years ago.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Apr-18




[[[ "Too little too late." ]]]

That's obviously true for you, and evidently true for many others, but it isn't so for lots of others.

If you aren't interested, aren't happy, or are just down right repulsed by a topic (any topic) it's real easy to just skip on by them.

I can't count on both hands the number of shooters I know of who have been helped either directly, or indirectly by David's methods. That's just the ones I know of. How many more might there be? Several I suspect.

Rick

From: 2 bears
Date: 12-Apr-18




I am also the beneficiary of David's generosity. Emails,written instructions a box full of stuff that you don't get made cheaply. He didn't know me from Adam just tried to help me out. It seems if you have a genuine interest you benefit. If you bad mouth you are ignored. I don't pretend to know David's reasoning. I don't think he needs the money. Maybe that is it. He just helps the deserving. I do know he is very intelligent in several fields and well traveled. He has some very unique ideas. If you don't like it or him, you have a choice of shut up and ignore. You can call me what you want but I am on the grateful list. Ever watched Rick shoot? Think he might have a clue? If I was David and didn't need the money I am sorry but there is very few of you that I would share with. Carry on and have a good day. >>>----> Ken

From: SteveBNY
Date: 12-Apr-18




Rick - don't take this wrong and I'm not doubting you a bit. Just impossible to get a feel for why more time has been spent on "teasers", "watch fors" and not telling than it would take to actually talk about his systems - by book, video, blog, or whatever. Why the countless hours to talk about something he has and how wonderful it is but only share (free or for profit) with a handful? Your right - his credibility and/or motives are diminished by over a decade of posts that virtually need no where. You got to understand why more than a few have doubts.

From: Twisted Branch
Date: 12-Apr-18




I want to try it. If I don’t gain anything...that’s on me. Now how do I go about this?

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 12-Apr-18




Rick, Pretty much all archery interests me so if something is out there of interest I'd rather not have it needlessly dangled behind a shroud.

I will be skipping this endless circling now.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 12-Apr-18




Picking out naval lint, rolling it into a ball and flicking it at the cat is more fun than STAR teasers. STARs like the wife that always has a headache.

From: The Whittler
Date: 12-Apr-18




David A, I just tried your YouTube and got invalid. What am I doing wrong?

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 12-Apr-18




Totally agree with OCR. S%$^ or get off the pot.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Apr-18




Some are waiting 10 years and I get the info when I really want to have it. Interesting world wide web where some entities think they are entitled to get everything even if they don’t actually want it.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Generally, 95% of the posts on my method is a result of critics attacking me. Go back to the top of this thread where Nick and Phil started in on me and then the cycle of defense and support then counter attack began.

You probably have experienced this yourself, when you are attacked, you stand up for yourself and mount a defense whether it is one reply or if you keep getting attacked it can go on and on. True? Even in rebuttal, I try to be polite and logical and don't hold grudges from one thread to another.

I don't teach thru site posting nor at this time thru books/video. Most coaches also DO NOT. I did offer and give a free clinic to Leatherwallers last year. It was pretty widely noted on this forum that the clinic was free and when/where it was to be given.

I wonder how many clinics those who are upset at me for not teaching them have given...

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Apr-18




I'm not defending David's decisions. He's a big boy, and can defend himself, plus it's his baby to do with as he sees fit, although as I have said before - I wish he would get off his duff, and get it released.

What I am defending are the STAR methods against shouts of BS, because they do exist, and even though not all are my cup of tea (some are some aren't), they are all very valid methods, which many will find one or some beneficial. There's a lot to choose from to find a fit.

I'm also defending David as a person, because he really is a great guy. I guess you would have to actually spend some time talking to him one on one to know that, but it's true, PLUS he has freely helped quite a number of folks with their shooting issues.

Me? Well I freely admit I'm an asshole, but I don't spend my time floating around on the internet forums trying to discredit someone/anyone even when I know they are full of BS. I've got better/more constructive things to do with my time.

8^)

Rick

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Draven, you are correct about the importance of back tension. All my release methods use it. You can see how much back tension there is in this shot:

https://youtu.be/7M-1UAV__wk

In general use today for glove and tab a case could be made we only have a couple of release methods. Forward push or some combination of forward push and back ward pull. Variants would be how or if the fingers are relaxed aiding in the loose. Perhaps 95% of accomplished archers use rear shoulder tension/pull in varying amounts.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




In conclusion, arguably one release method is used by the majority of accomplished archers athough that could be expanded into several more submethods depending upon whether one is a lumper or splitter (taxonomically).

From: David A.
Date: 12-Apr-18




Thanks, Rick. Just to note if I had published 10 yrs. ago there would have been only one release method and one aiming method. By continuing to research ... blah blah...

May give some stuff away toward year end to LWers...just a hint.

From: 2 bears
Date: 13-Apr-18




David I hope you are keeping a list. LoL Nice shot arm behind arrow and rotating behind back showing back tension at the time of release. >>>----> Ken

From: zetabow
Date: 13-Apr-18




David gave me some info on his method to help me with my 'Trigger finger' issues, I appreciate him trying to help me out, the concept never even entered my mind, so hats off to him for thinking outside the box.

It certainly works by giving a cleaner release but cannot get the alignment I normally have for various Stringwalking crawls, something I either need to work on or just continue with old style.

Thank you for helping a fellow Archer David.

From: Phil
Date: 13-Apr-18




All I asked David was that you consider revealing the STAR release method. you refused. I think your behavior over the last ten years baiting forum members with this subject has been absolutely disgraceful.

I will speak of it no more

From: Draven
Date: 13-Apr-18




Any type of possible services to improve the community are based on some kind of baiting. Some are saying they cure TP. Is not cure it is just a method to keeping it in check without recommending some anxiolytics too as it is supposed to. Some are saying "send me a pm and I will guide you" when the fellow readers are having problems with the back tension concept. But David should expose his thinking in plain sight just because the less interested need to see it. Take a break of this "center of the universe" thinking.

From: David A.
Date: 13-Apr-18




Draven, I have respect for your own nonlinear thinking...all too rare.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 13-Apr-18




No two people are exactly the same, or shots for that matter.

Everything we do is different from strength in various muscle groups, use of these muscles, vision, pause, mental concentration, height, body frame, facial configuration etc etc. No two shooters are exactly alike, in fact there are variations within individual shots based on body position and other factors. Hunt close and the negative factors are minimized. Simple, simple, simple concepts, keep it simple.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 13-Apr-18




"May give some stuff away toward year end to LWers...just a hint."

lil' mo' would be a good handle for you Dave. lol

From: 2 bears
Date: 13-Apr-18




Apparently no one read my first post as there were no comments. Here is a thought. I have noticed that nearly everyone that said they were done with David and the Star system continue to post in every thread.You were not really done. You don't have to open,or read. You certainly don't have to keep up the negative comments.David A is right at the top of the thread.Are you still grasping for a little tidbit after 10 years? LoL >>>----> Ken

From: badgerman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-Apr-18




Folks, the STAR Method has evolved and continues to evolve so to all the nay sayers----take a deep breath and as you meditate draw on your patience. All things will be revealed in due time. Joel

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 13-Apr-18




lol Kids are funny.

From: Dan W
Date: 13-Apr-18

Dan W's embedded Photo



"...take a deep breath and as you meditate draw on your patience"-

Take a deep breath and as you draw, meditate patiently.

From: David A.
Date: 13-Apr-18




I take a half breath and am not very meditative. There's bit of subconscious work in target acquisition and when the release is initiated.

From: Draven
Date: 13-Apr-18




David, “meditative” like in “emotionless” not like in “thinking about the meaning of the life” . Don’t fall for dictionary meaning when it’s a martial art vocabulary like 99,99% of the Zen archery poster.

From: Draven
Date: 13-Apr-18




Missing an S there: posterS

From: David A.
Date: 14-Apr-18




Yes, I know. I've studied Zen. Even played Shakuhachi...I don't recommend a full breath but I do recommend a sort of blank mind in aiming. Howver, my conscious mind is in control of much of my shot sequence...

From: oldgoat
Date: 14-Apr-18




Depends on how many targets there are on the course I'm shooting!

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 14-Apr-18




Instead of addressing the target, the stare, the predraw, the draw, the hold, the shoulder squeeze, the aiming, and on and on, try this. Grab one of your heavier bows and a dozen arrows and shoot as fast as you possible can until they are all shot. Don't think about shooting justr shooting fast. Do that over and over until you get exhausted. Shoot until you can't do it anymore, or have lost your interest in thinking about shooting. That'll let your body take over -shooting a bow is totally a physical activity and aiming is largely not thinking about aiming your body just does it. Put all that Viper clutter in your head about 'what's correct' on a back burner. Heck it might even cure your target panic. Go ahead just do it. Quit thinking. Just do it.

From: 2 bears
Date: 14-Apr-18




I looked twice and didn't see a Viper post. No idea why you are so angry. I rather enjoy reading others experiences.>>>---> Ken

From: zetabow
Date: 15-Apr-18




Bob you advise would likely be a disaster for a lot of Archers, Trad Archery already has more than it's share of awful shooters. Last 7-8 years I've seen a positive attitude change where people want to improve and listen to established and proven techniques.

I understand not everyone wants to aspire to State champ skill level but most want to feel they're shooting to their current potential.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 15-Apr-18




Shooting as fast as possible loosens you up physically. Shooting a few dozen as fast as you can gets your muscles warmed, and your shooting chops flowing, like players warming up before a game. That's GOOD advice.

From: zetabow
Date: 15-Apr-18




It may work for some experienced Archers but more novice Archers would likely run into serious issues with this unorthodox approach.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 15-Apr-18




Bob is wise. Dynamic warm up is key to every physical activity.

Some pressure can heighten physical ability considerably.

You guys played dodegeball, right?

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 15-Apr-18




Yeah, you better believe it works. Try it yourself. If you want to see it in action and learn something, watch Lajos Kassai on youtube. That many can flat out shoot a bow. I could care less if he can't hit a necco wafer at twenty yards.

You know what's missing here in the States and the west in general imo is an appreciation and understanding of the roots of the horse bowmen and warriors of the east. Two different cultures a half world apart. I'll bet some of those guys get a pretty good laugh watching us on youtube.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 15-Apr-18




Not to mention the guys who were doing it right here not much over a lifetime or two ago.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 15-Apr-18




Yup. Them as well. Credit where it's due.

From: David A.
Date: 15-Apr-18




Kassai is one of the best...for horseback archery and warfare.

From: zetabow
Date: 15-Apr-18




You think Kassai warms up by just shooting a few dozen arrows fast lol

The S Korean warm ups (a good 20min) are just as rigious as. Kassai's, it's Trad Archery just pick up your too heavy bow and walk outside and shoot it the most undisciplined form of Archery, most here wouldn't be able to shoot with SKorean warm up

From: Dan W
Date: 15-Apr-18




The Turkish warm up procedure, as witnessed by an English archer present at an exhibition of Turkish archery by the secretary to the Turkish Ambassador, Mr. Effendi. London, 1791.

"...The Turk, regardless of the many persons standing around him, and to the amazement and terror of all the Toxophilites, suddenly began firing his arrows in all directions, but the astonishment of the company was increased by finding the arrows were not made to fly, but fell harmlessly within a few yards."

"These arrows the Turk called his "EXERCISING ARROWS". This was an idea that was quite new to the bowmen present, and they began to have more respect for the Turk and his bow."

So there we have it, a traditional Turkish method of quick shooting flu-flus just to warm up.

I found that bit in "Turkish Archery and the Composite Bow", Paul Klopsteg. 1947

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 15-Apr-18




Kassai IS da man.

From: Sinner
Date: 15-Apr-18




Two...

Fingers and mechanical. In my mind, variations still fall in those two categories. Any more is for arguments sake only.

From: zetabow
Date: 16-Apr-18




http://turkishflightarchery.blogspot .com.ee/2010/03/archery- exercises.html?m=1

Very similar to other warm up routines, stretching muscles/joint's, reps with lighter draw building up to the weight you shoot.

Target Archers have a close range blank bale and shoot as part of their warm up routine but not with higher poundage or as speed which you suggested, great if it works for you but any less experienced Archers who haven't fully mastered their Form will likely mess up their shooting big time. You have to remember all skill levels are reading these Forums.

From: David A.
Date: 16-Apr-18




He's the man Bob, if you want to shoot a lot of arrows very vast as for archery war. Has virtually no relevance to bowhunting or target archery today.

From: zetabow
Date: 16-Apr-18




David I've visited him in Hungary, it's very martial arts/combat based but it is now considered a sport, he developed the international rules for mounted Archery and the have their own world championships.

They certainly don't warm up just by shooting a few dozen arrows as fast as they can. The training is very disciplined and reminds be of Aikido dojo etiquette/training.

From: David A.
Date: 16-Apr-18




I'm impressed he is not just snap shooting, his form is disciplined.

From: Draven
Date: 16-Apr-18




He is teaching mounted martial archery, discipline IS the nature of the beast. Very few self-taught archers are disciplined in their training.

From: monkeyball
Date: 16-Apr-18




There is two, as sinner already stated.

Fingers on the string and release on the string.

I did not say"mechanical" as they are all not "that".

And if in my journey shooting longbows and recurves, I would find for some reason that i cannot release the string off of my fingers, I will explore those other options to be able to keep on shooting.....

Good Shooting (and hopefully with your fingers)->->->->Craig





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