From: jk
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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Just started playing again with my Hill-style longbow...discovered that it shoots left unless significantly canted, shoots straight or only a little left when canted only a little...
But my closer-to-center-shot r/d is almost insensitive to cant...shoots fine straight-up or when heavily canted (as in brush).
Same arrows (600# carbon and 55-58# chundoo).
What's up? Does that all come down to center shot?
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From: jk
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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The big thing I'm wondering is whether the Hill-ish bow will need different cants at different distances.
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From: CStyles
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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Likely a lower arrow spine would make the difference. With the right arrow you won't need to cant the bow
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From: Kent Alan
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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Are you tilting your head in accordance with the degree to which the bow is canted in order to "get your eye over the arrow"? I had a problem with not adjusting my head position when canting; what I thought was an "accurate sight picture" when I didn't do the head tilt with a canted bow pretty much always had me hitting left.You may be keeping your head vertical, I dunno...Try the head tilt when you cant the bow. Let us know, God and Christ Bless.
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From: GLF
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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If you need different cants for different distances what you really need is tuning. If you're tuned arrows shot from 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 will form a perfect straight verticle line with no lefts or rights. Shooting a dot at the top of ur target from those distances while aiming the same on each shot is a good way to fine tune.
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From: Skeets
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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Howard Hill and John Schulz used various cants for different distances. Supposedly becoming more vertical at longer distances. Perhaps their arrows were stiff, but I guess it worked ok.
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From: Trillium
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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Canting a bow simply changes a left-right tuning error into an up-down tuning error, which is easier to compensate for than left-right errors...
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From: jaz5833
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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Likely a lower arrow spine would make the difference. With the right arrow you won't need to cant the bow
Canting a bow simply changes a left-right tuning error into an up-down tuning error, which is easier to compensate for than left-right errors...
What they said!!
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From: mahantango
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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To put it another way, if you are properly tuned, the degree of can't won't change your point of impact which is ideally what you are looking for.
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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twist in an extra 1/4"=1/2" of BH and watch what happens. ;)
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From: dean
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Date: 06-Apr-18 |
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do yourself favor and follow the advice from longbow expert. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rel4Q_VT_Fo
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From: longbowguy
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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What GLF said. - lbg
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From: Greyfox
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Can't if you can, if you can't try harder to can't. If you can't can't, ask Cat how to can't if he feels good enough to can't. Other wise ask frisky, The Legend. Good luck.
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From: Jim
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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I agree with Jinks
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From: Will tell
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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I can't my bow when takinghots ten yards and under
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From: jk
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Because the various wisdom (thanks) is correct for my center shot bows I'd almost agree with tuning HOWEVER...
.... HOWEVER does that wisdom apply to bows far from center-shot (like my Hill-style) ?
OK gurus: do you shoot a HIll and a R/D that shoot SAME ARROWS nearly straight-up @ 10-20 yds but @ more than 20 the HILL wants a lot of cant? That's what I've got.
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From: dean
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Canting worked for this guy, maybe it will work for you.
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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jk: with regards too your last post above?...
You seem to be infering that "Shot Distance" has some sort of influence over your arrows P.O.I. and here's what I pretty much know you're experiencing based on the results and conditions you describe....
"YOUR ARROWS ARE SLIGHTLY TOO STIFF"
Because ^^THAT^^ could in fact give you very close to desireable results at closer shot distances where as shot distance grows?...so does the impact error of your slightly too stiffly spined arrows requiring you to induce more cant to compensate for such.
Here's two options for you...
1. Increase Brace Height
and/or...
2. Mount up Heavier Points
I shoot both my R/D Hawk and my Jet Hill bow with a slight "But Consistent" cant at all distances and when that happens?...you will know that your bow is well tuned and your arrows are well matched.
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From: timex
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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I'm no expert but look at Howard's upper body especially from the shoulders up in comparison to the bow. His head & neck are almost alighned with the bow
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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timex: Correct and the head should always be aligned with the bow because?...
"WHAT THE CANT CHANGES IS THE ARROWS PRESSURE AGAINST THE BOW"
where "Canting" is not much different than and has much the same effect as?...
"Changing Cushion Plunger Tension"
for us shoot-off-the-shelf types. ;)
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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or?...it could be that Howard was just ducking to keep his head from hitting the roof above the table he's standing on and using as a stage! LOL!
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Howard showed you could shoot from any position, and many of his shots were a near vertical bow. One photo proves nothing except that he was capable of shooting any style he wanted. Horace Ford shot a vertical bow, back in the 1850's, and was arguably one of the best archers of our time..given the equipment.
If your arrows are tuned, and they should be, you can shoot a Hill style bow completely vertical for any distance...been there and done that. It's just a method. My Ol' Buck lemonwood had no shelf and I shot it vertically most of the time....I just shot it better that way. If you can't, it's not the bow...it's the tuning.
Now can you shoot a center shot recurve bow, and a Hill style with the same arrow in vertical plane? Well yes, if the bows are set up to shoot that particular arrow. Likely the center shot recurve would need to be quite a of lighter draw weight, or have the shelf built out to accommodate a softer spine.
Keep in mind that most of the archer of the pre laminated bow days shot vertical bows. Lots of photos to show that is how they were taught and how the did it.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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I also think, and know for myself that you should be able to shoot both ways at any distance when shooting the 'instinctive' style.
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From: Dry Bones
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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JK, I am really glad this came up and I have to agree with Jinkster and George here. My Freeman longbow seems to be very forgiving (more close center shot) than some other longbows with regards to arrow spine, BUT to get the best tune out of the bow it should, as posted above, shoot the same line from 10-??? how ever far you want to do it. IF it is the right arrow. I know I am as guilty as anyone in that, "these two bows are close to the same weight so they should be okay with the same arrow" mentality, but for real true tune, this is not the case. Big fletchings tend to cover some of the miss flight action up, but your impact point is telling another story.
-Bones
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Allow me to show you folks something here.
I'm going to post up 4 pix from shoots I recently attended.
The first two are from shooting "The Stickbow 100" (down in Ft. Lauderdale) a couple months back where all the shooting lanes were cleared for straight up shooting so here's pic #1 of that...
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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and here's pic #2 from the Stickbow 100...
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Now here's two pix from shooting the TBOF State Championships last month where things weren't so "Cleared" and more often than not awkward positions were assumed just to get a line on the target and that "Straight Up" stuff went out the window...
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From: fdp
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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I'd say it's this - "or?...it could be that Howard was just ducking to keep his head from hitting the roof above the table he's standing on and using as a stage! LOL!"
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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and here...where "Leaning out" demanded that my upper body be canted but notice how the cant of my bow follows the lean angle of my upper body giving credence too the cliché that...
"Form Is From The Waist Up"
so whether you're leaning out or leaning forward?...if you form is locked in the bow follows the body and?...
"You Cant so You Can!" LOL! ;)
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From: bobinbend
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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The more you cant the bow, the more the riser becomes the shelf. Which may or may not be problematic for the shooter.
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From: Bender
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Date: 07-Apr-18 |
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Canting always affects left/right. However, the closer the arrow is to the top of the bow hand the less effect the cant cant will have.
OK. Fine. Whatever. HOWEVER if you see that you have left/right error that changes as distance changes, then yes, one MIGHT be able to "correct" that by altering cant to match the distance. But it is only making the base problem, state of tune is whacked.
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From: jk
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Date: 08-Apr-18 |
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DryBones said "I know I am as guilty as anyone in that, "these two bows are close to the same weight so they should be okay with the same arrow" mentality, but for real true tune, this is not the case. Big fletchings tend to cover some of the miss flight action up, but your impact point is telling another story."
Maybe...OK.. factoid: I'm shooting 3.5" low profile feathers (Ozark) exclusively... faster, quieter, more resistant to wind (like curley vanes).
Reality factor: my so-called Hill bow gets my hand closer to the arrow, of course..and my more-center R/D bows not so much...but they aren't as sensitive to cant, being more center.
One factor may be the grip..Hill is mild locator/leather, R/D is still mild but far from pistol grip and no leather. I'm sure I'm holding them differently.
thanks for all the angles.. I should say that I'm less interested in "real true tune" than I am in predictable accuracy.
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From: GLF
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Date: 08-Apr-18 |
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Changing cant to hit's not going to be as consistent as tuning the bow so no matter the distance ur on target no matter how you cant. Hill style bows take a weaker arrow because of less center cut ,plus the fact most of them don't have the thrust of rd's.
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From: dean
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Date: 08-Apr-18 |
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Center shot recurve shooting and shooting a longbow Hill style are not the same. It has more to do with the visual aspects than arrow spine. Howard Hill stated in Hunting The Hard Way that the arrow basically flies up and to the left. He was not talking tuning as carbon arrow shooters refer to. He was referring to the visual. john schulz explained the visual aspects of canting the bow, as when shooting downward at a bear. I believe it was Gene Wensel that he was hunting with.
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From: Dry Bones
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Date: 08-Apr-18 |
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jk, My Freeman bow is pretty solid true ASL, and I shoot it with no leather grip, and it has no "locator" design. The locator for me is when I hold the bow the arrow is barely above the skin that is between thumb and index finger. OFTEN, I feel the arrow and fletching skim the skin. I also shoot small fletchings. I have 2" on my carbons and the newest woods I made have a 3" low profile. It's what I like, and I know the more I practice the better my release becomes. Want to see some false flight issues, flub a release with small fletchings a few times. In the end IF you can figure on cant to distance and then in the field and moment of hunting make those modifications appropriately then great. I have to take some of that out of the equation to be successful. Long post here, but on a side not. My hummingbird recurve does not allow for me to be skin close to the arrow, there is a "sweet spot" of cant that is spot on for me from 10-max distance. I know that has to do with head alignment and my form more then bow or arrow.
-Bones
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From: dean
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Date: 08-Apr-18 |
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As far as arrow spine goes, I have two criteria that I go by. 1. does it come quickly out of the 'S' curve and fly stable. 2. does the arrow hit the bow. An arrow that hits the bow on the feather end is either too stiff or too weak with my duo shooters. Somewhere in the middle are the correct arrows. These are with wood arrows. Carbon arrows show off line flight much more than wood arrows with my 3/8" outside of center bows. Even with these outside of center bows I get by with a wider span of suitable flight than most would expect. When I test arrows, I secondary aim hard on a spot, often a bright red ball to lay my arrow point on. These are my test arrows spines from 45 to 65 head weights from 145 to 190, shot from 24 or 25 yards. I used my red ball secondary aiming point and could not tell at that time which was the best flying arrows with the bow canted at approximately 2 o'clock. Varied energy in the release can show if an arrow is close to being too stiff, an extra snappy release can show if an arrow is on the brink of being to soft. In this case 45 spine with 145 grain heads packed right in with the 65s with 160 and 190, the 50-55s with 160 and 50-55s with 145. In this group the tapered carbon showed a more clumsy take off than the rest, when the releases were a bit soft. My neighbor who was watching my groupings and arrow flight took this picture with my cell phone. The most perfect arrow was 55 to 57 Surewoods because they would tolerate my varied energy releases and still hit the pile better than the outside spines. [img]https://i.imgur.com/FwFGF6K.jpg?1[/img]
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From: dean
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Date: 08-Apr-18 |
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00ps
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From: Red Beastmaster
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Date: 09-Apr-18 |
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I cant more the closer I am to the target. It's not on purpose and I didn't even realize I did it until I read about it once on here. I don't think about such things when I'm shooting.
It has zero to do with wrong arrow spine.
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