Looking for a new bow. (getting older and want performance and looks also)so need a lighter bow.I hunt Elk primarly and deer.Been looking at the Tall tines and covert hunter. Does anybody know the current lead Time for a Tall Tines.I have called and emailed but no answer so very busy. What is the performance like from those that own shot the TTs. Cant dispute the performance of the CH however ugly limbs.Has anybody shoot the hex 8s? I saw the vidiow for the hex8 and wow. How would the CH compare in performance to the TT in the real world. for elk I will be dropping weight to 55Lbs.
Tall Tines is a nice bow. Made in USA. From reports, Covert Hunter probably outperforms it. Try to get actual bow weights and speeds to compare. Good luck.
Had a covet with the older limbs hex 4 or 5 ,excellent workmanship and real nice shooter it was around 60#. I had a 58” all phonelic riser Tall tines at 49# and man did that bow shoot wouldn’t have hesitated for a minute to hunt elk or moose with it.wished I had never had traded it ,would love to have that back.The TT would probably be a lot cheaper and at your 55# would blow thru any thing in North America,I’d go the TT FWIW.
A 55# selfbow with a wood arrow will shoot through an elk, so any bow you get at 55# is likely going to be plenty. People kill elk and moose regularly with 50# and lighter longbows and recurves. I would get the Tall Tines and with the extra money I saved, I could buy some more arrows or whatever else would come in handy on an elk hunt.
Tall Tines is not out of business. I saw Brian at the Trad Expo and he was selling bows. He thought about getting out of the business last summer but then changed his mind. Both are excellent bows. The Hex 8 limbs will out perform just about any limb on the market (exception being the Morrison Max 5) but you will pay a lot for them and some don't care for the radical recurve hooks. May be more difficult to keep the bow quiet.
Ive Killed 18 elk over my time all using 60-70 Lb high end bows. Never once got full penetration and as little as 7 inches. all razor sharp and around 600 grains or more. However times and materials and other things have changed. We now have FF strings, heavy Carbon shafts single bevel heads and so on. Hit a rib angeling forward and crap with lighter older bows you end up with one lung hit. Even with newer highend lighter bows I have never seen a elk killed with one other then a very few examples. I am looking for better then marginal. The blacktale in the the pic was killed by a 64LB Blacktail 650gr ceader shaft Zwiky eskimo 2 blade. broke 1 rib stoped on the far rib
I have a TT with 2 sets of limbs, 50# and 56#. I bought the heavier limbs for bigger critters like elk but to be honest I don't think the 50# limbs would be a handicap. It is a smooth drawing, quick and quiet little bow. I have no experience with the CH except I shot a round at Denton Hill last year with a fellow that was shooting a 45#er. The things that impressed me most about that bow was that it was very fast and had the most aggressive hooks I had ever seen on a recurve. I kept wondering if it was a challenge to string and unstring. It was also the loudest bow I have ever heard (including compounds). It made a black widow sound quiet. I'm sure it could be tuned to be quieter but it was god awful loud.
Covert Hunters are not loud and are very easy to string. You would be surprised.
If you are looking to get the most speed and performance for your draw weight, I don't think you will find anything better than the Hex 7.5 or Hex 8 limb. But that will come at a cost. They aren't cheap! For older hunters looking to get the most punch for the pounds pulled, many find it is worth it. You would have to be the judge of that. That extra oomph isn't needed for most deer but comes in awful handy for elk.
I had a Tall Tines and it was a very nice bow. Same could be said for the Blacktail, Shafer, Morrison, ___(fill in the blank) bows I have/had. There are lots of really good bows out there that will get the job done.
I have a 42# Covert Hunter that outperforms some of my other "good" bows that are 55 pounds or more. You really need to shoot one and decide for yourself. Mine is quiet, very fast, and very accurate (contrary to what you often hear from the guys that never shot one!). My two cents.
I have two Tall Tines and also a Covert Hunter with Hex 7.5 limbs. At this point I prefer the Tall Tines bows but maybe if I had as many years in shooting the super recurves I would prefer them. If it is a decision based on bang for the buck, it has to be a solid nod to the Tall Tines bows. The extra eight or nine hundred dollars for the Border bow does not buy much extra performance wise.
Actually, a pretty big difference in perfomance between the Silvertip and the TallTines with his newer limb design. I am sure the Covert Hunters have a performance edge, but I am a sucker for a pretty bow, and Brian can sure hook you up in the regard. I really like the Silvertip grip, as well as the TallTines, but there are a little different from each other. FWIW, my TT recurve is 55#@29", but I draw it just a tad longer. I really doubt that anything in North Americal would stand up to it. Even a heavily shielded hog.
I have two of Brians bows and I have shot a bunch of other bows and nothing I have shot compares to how a tall tines feels and shoots. I draw my 62" talltines recurve to 31.25 and it's smooth as butter all the way back but still enough tension at the back to have a good clean release, unlike the zippers with the z4 limbs and the morrison max5 limbs, but that's personal preference.I have not shot a border but have shot around borders and the ones I was around were very loud
But they may not have been tuned correctly, that I do not know. But nothing I have shot can compare with a talltines grip, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to agree with that!
TallTines is definitely still in business. Great bows; rugged and great looking. Excellent performance and grip. Buy American, keep the independent bowyer in business!
Yeah, will if I can figure out the price and delivery of the TT my mind is made up. Got the pricing for the border suped up and extra limbs. Went to the exchange calculator as in US dollars. Wow, hey honey looked what I did and our kids in collage. Maybe we should postpone colleage a year. I did see a used one I may pull the trigger on but still order a really nice supped up TT. Then I can dream about tis coming elk season and be done with it.
I have changed my preference away from the Covert Hunter and would go with a Tall Tines, NO QUESTION. The Covert Hunter is the fastest bow out there, including beating my Morrison’s. However, after killing several big game animals with it, I grew weary with the $80 shipping charges to Scotland, the fragile limbs, the pre-load sensation. I have had several of the limb generations beginning with the hex 5’s to the hex 7.5’s. They are not durable hunting bows in the field, in my experience. They are very susceptible to limb damage as they are crafted from light weight materials that are not able to stand up to mild abuse such as bouncing on the crossbars of a canoe, scraping the rock face you hug and tip toe around, catching the tree limbs that wack you as you blaze trails, ect.... YES, they are fine shooting but I retired mine and went to Tall Tines. The Tall Tines are fast, quiet, durable, forgiving, 1/2 the price and man do they have an amazing grip! I missed the feeling of a normal drawing bow that gains in resistance as you draw it further and further. I grew to dislike the significant pre-load of my Covert Hunter and now I appreciate my Tall Tines so much. I have a friend who shoots the new Hex 8 limbs, he loves them. But as for me, Tall Tines is where it’s at. His build time is inside of 2-3 months and he would like a $200 deposit if my memory is correct. I have picked up 4 risers and 5 sets of limbs in the classifieds just being patient and waiting. Feel free to PM me, I have much more I can share. Moosehunter
Give Morrison a call on his Max 5, built in America and any problems it will be taken care of immediately, you can shoot less # and get the same performance from a heavier bow. I have a Border 45# and Max 4 40# in lesser weight and with physical decline it keeps me in the hunt. The Borders 45# drives a 2016 w/ 145gr. Snuffer with great penetration, what more can one ask for, the same with the Max 4 with 500 GT. They are all good even my Wes Wallace Royal which has been in the field more often, just a pleasure to shoot.
Performance wise you're comparing a recurve to a SUPER recurve. Any idea which will preform better?
With bad shoulders I wanted a CH so I could drop down in poundage. I wanted a low grip and Border wouldn't build it. My shoulder problem didn't go away. I ended up getting a Hex 7.5 ILF.
The last elk I killed was with my longbow 50 at 29. Got complete penetration on a 28 yard shot. My Hex 7.5's are 39 pounds and deliver 6 more foot/pounds of energy than my 50 pound longbow.
Not much looks as good as a TT, but I don't have a choice.
To answer one of your questions; I ordered a Tall Tines in November, and the lead time then was 5-6 months. I haven't shot a covert hunter, but owned a Black Douglas. Fast bows, but I cant say anything good about the customer service and attitude.
I have two TallTines one recurve and Longbow love both of them Brian can be a little slow getting back but keep calling him he will answer. Great gut to do business with and builds a great bow
Just wondering, but what exactly does the Covert hunter cost? I have two tall tine bows, and they were not cheap cost bows! I love my tall tine bows! Cant imagine any better...although I do understand personal preference...
Last night while at the airport picking up my wife my cell goes BUZZZZZZZZZZZ, it was Brian with Details . Ck is in the mail this morning. TT all dressed out with two sets of limbs. PDK nice looking bow great contrast in colors, . As for the cost of a Border they are posted on facebook page. With what I wanted 3200 US assuming I was doing the conversion correctly. Oh the pic is the back side of my property.The elk have been really moving in. Now if I get my wife not to name the herd Bull. The Pic was taken on Memorial day 2017 with the grasses getting good and green. Who knows where they will be in sept. Now if I just get the bow before Sept which is very possible.
I do have my eye on a used on to insure I have a bow come sept. The only issue is a mental one. a bow with another guys name on it like you steped out cheating. Just dose not fell right to me.You unlock secrets the other guy did not know or worse you reliaze anll the sizzel was nothing but a dud.
elk are big animals and you realize it once on the ground.
Yes sir!! That would be a great pic! If you are on instagram, you can follow Tall Tines Archery and see some mighty fine risers and limbs Brian posts as he is building bows.
I have two Covert Hunters. I am going to list one for sale shortly. I bought a pheonolic riser but prefer the lighter weight of the regular wood, so it and the two sets of Hex 7.5 limbs will go to someone that will use it. When buying one you need to follow the draw length recommendations so far as bow/riser/limb length. Same for brace height range. They are not designed for light arrows and Border only wants you to use FF+/D97 strings. For some reason there have been a couple of users that didn't abide by these and now bash Border.
I am getting 200 fps with 9 gpp arrows from them. Even a very heavy aluminum hits 180 fps. They do require a heavy spined arrow. The 46# limbs take a 29" .400 GT Traditional with 125 tip. The 52# limbs take the same arrow but in a .340 spine.
Elkpacker1, just to give you an idea of how well the talltines bows are built. With my recurve iv had two nocks and one string break upon release resulting in three dry fires from 31.25" of draw and not a thing happened to it besides the bow going a lot farther than the arrow! Yes you could say I havnt had great luck with nocks. And the other day I had a nock pop off the string at release on my brand new talltines stickflinger and nothing happened to it either. I doubt a super curve recurve would have held up as well.
I think you should add a Palmer to the list. My hunting bow of choice is a Border Black Douglas with Hex 6 bb2s. For hunting, it's all about a flat projectory and the Border slings a 500 grain arrow with authority. My second bow of choice would be the Palmer. It's also fast but very forgiving. I think the TT will be a great bow but slower than the Palmer.
There's several quality conventional recurves available. Grip preference is personal. Also low mass, high mass ,forward riser etc. I've had enough borders to know I dont want any more. Dealing long distance is a pain and there always seems to be issues. I have an Ace that I like and I find bear take downs as good as any especially with Stahl limbs. All the conventional recurves listed above would be just fine with me. Rooty
Well?...I wasn't going to but since there's such a gross imbalance here?...
I'm weighing in in favor of Borders Covert Hunter.
I will say that while I never owned or shot a Tall Tines (or Zipper or Palmer for that matter and I only mention those two cause they are two of the very few I haven't shot or owned yet) but have owned and shot a couple stand out conventional limbed recurve bows...One was a Bear Greenstripe "B" riser shod with Rose Oak #2 limbs and the other was an Original 21" DAS Elite ILF riser that I clipped a set of W&W RCX100 limbs onto and did find favor with Robertfishes Custom Amberboo Shorts on that DAS Elite as well but I was actually test shooting a Blacktail Elite when a 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter (purchased used) stole the show and my heart.
I long since "Custom Ordered" a new Hex7.5 Covert Hunter I've owned and shot for well over a year now and of the (2) CH's and (2) sets of ILF Hex7/7.5 limbs I've owned I've experienced "Zero Issues" but what I have experienced is a level of performance that no other bow I've handled has even come close too where the upshot is the Covert Hunter simply blows them all away and does so in a huge way.
Outside of screwing around with a few other styles of bows?...the Covert Hunter ended what was a 5 year long shopping spree.
Nor the ch or the tt could of reached this bear. Well maybe at first they could off. Saw him while hikeing at 20 yards then he ambeled up the trail. That is about 200 yards. Well maybe the CH could have
Well I haven't shot 200yds but I have shot 450gr arrows sporting 175gr screw-ins making 11.84gpp off my 64"/38# Hex7.5 CH competing in an NFAA 900rd at Brevard Archers...
Ive had two Tall Tines and still have one. I think its a great hunting bow. Quiet and bomb proof. It's fast enough. I treat my bows like tools and they look it. I have never shot a Covert Hunter. I did recently buy a set of Max5s and currently have them on a 19" Phoenix riser, waiting on a Stalker Apex coming in 3 months. The Max5s are faster than my Tall Tines even though they are 5lbs lighter and I thought I would never say it but the Max5s are quieter than my Tall Tines as well. As for durability I'll let you know after next season.
It's funny but I think we can thank Palmer and Border for pushing the envelope. We have more options now. I own the Hex 7s but I HUNT with 6's. The TT bows are prettier than the Palmer but there has to be a reason why Moosehunter has ordered another Palmer. In the grand scheme of things, plus or minus 5 fps is not going to define your HUNTING bow. Agree with Moosehunter that DURABILITY is crucial. i haven't had any problems with my Black Douglas as a hunting bow. I say that because because Jinkster doesn't impress me as die hard hunter (LOL) so I thought you would like a second opinion on Border as a hunting bow. I have not made up my mind on the SRs (Hex 7+, Morrison 5, etc).
How come no ones mentioning Mike Mitten or the Wensel Bro’s don’t they shoot the TT’s .......... all I know is I had one and should’ve never let it go , but ..... I’ll get another ..... Never shot the CH , I’m sure they’re super quick , but doubt I’ll ever need one ,,,,,,, carry on fellas ....
How come no ones mentioning Mike Mitten or the Wensel Bro’s don’t they shoot the TT’s .......... all I know is I had one and should’ve never let it go , but ..... I’ll get another ..... Never shot the CH , I’m sure they’re super quick , but doubt I’ll ever need one ,,,,,,, carry on fellas ....
Shotkizer: You impress me for recognizing that Borders are constantly pushing the envelope where they continually offer up their latest innovations as opposed to purveyors that have been slinging the same old, same old limb profiles that are so lackluster in the performance dept. that they're almost gauranteed not to break...ever. LOL!
Where you don't impress me is as a judge of bows...with Borders it's not just the speed (which BTW is a lot more tham 5fps) but?...
"The Power"
as that's a virtue that a true diehard hunter should appreciate and the Border Hex7/7.5 series limbs?...with throw a 12GPP arrow (that's a whopping 3GPP heavier) at the same FPS a conventionally limbed recurve throws a 9GPP arrow and the KE/Momentum difference is huge and something any true diehard hunter would appreciate...but not you?
Elkpacker if you can afford and carry in the back pack when hunting spare limb sets in adidition of the one mounted on the bow the Covert hunter Is really the best. Now if you don't plan to buy extra limb set, and think that 10 fps will not change the overall outcome of the hunt go with the TT. At the end of the journey in a remote place, the best bow is the one that has kept his structural integrity longer.
I hafta agree with hybridbowhunter that if you're headed out on a long journey in a remote place where structural integrity and durability is paramount?...none of the bows discussed in this thread could possibly challenge the integrity and durability of a stick of heat tempered bamboo laminates sandwiched between layers of fiberglass in what we all know (and many love) as Hill style ASL's.
They are the smoothest drawing and quietest shooting type of bow out there. They are nearly indestructible at a bombproof level and are also more woods-slick than any other.
If a long journey in a remote area was what was laying ahead of me?...I would without hesitation and the utmost confidence reach for my "Jet Safari Premier" Hill style ASL.
and BTW?...the creatures aren't going to give a flip how pretty the bow was that you harvested them with. ;)
Well, the price difference required in order to carry a spare set of limbs make the choice pretty obvious for most. And I don't buy a pretty bow for the animals sake. That is for me.
If you really want to see a good bow review on the Covert Hunter go to YouTube and look at Joe Paranee on his Covert Hunter...I don't think you will find a better review of a bow...Joe tells it pretty much the way it is.. the truth and that the numbers speak for itself....He has his way which that's what a bow is "mostly" personal preference! I do have a couple of Tall Tine bows, I really do like them, they do what I need, but I am really tempted on the CH...The good thing is there are many bows out there!!! and truly talented bowyers pushing the envelope!
In my dreams I have already killed the big bull of the ridge with my TTs. Oh, my first recurve was a bear kodiak magnum, then a magnisium take down. years later a Bighorn serial #7 then several take downs. took my first elk with the asbell take down. boutgh a black widow just because. then I discovered Norm Johnson making blacktails @ $350 per with a 3 month wait time. bought 7 Bts during those days as some were not so good and others were magic wonds. Alot has changed as in small things that make a better bow. the biggist change is the tallent in making a pretty bow. The first to come along was Peirce making the Pierce point bow he would give away.
Every body wants speed again so FF , light carbon arrows , what next wheels. Funny thing abouot compounds. shoot a 11 gpp out of one and compare it againt your recurve. not much diffrence really in speed
I don't disagree with you, but I think that you will be pleasantly surprised by the performance of Brian's new recurve limbs compared to the black tails and black widows. Just my opinion.
Shotkizer: You impress me for recognizing that Borders are constantly pushing the envelope where they continually offer up their latest innovations as opposed to purveyors that have been slinging the same old, same old limb profiles that are so lackluster in the performance dept. that they're almost gauranteed not to break...ever. LOL! Where you don't impress me is as a judge of bows...with Borders it's not just the speed (which BTW is a lot more tham 5fps) but?...
"The Power"
as that's a virtue that a true diehard hunter should appreciate and the Border Hex7/7.5 series limbs?...with throw a 12GPP arrow (that's a whopping 3GPP heavier) at the same FPS a conventionally limbed recurve throws a 9GPP arrow and the KE/Momentum difference is huge and something any true diehard hunter would appreciate...but not you?
Jinkster,
I meant no disrespect. Forgive me if I offended you.
I LOVE my Border bows. Their customer service has been top notch over our 5 year relationship. I also consider Sid Ball and his wife Ann dear friends.
Speed is not the only thing. The top tier bows are within 5 fps of each other. Ironically, my goto Border is not the fastest bow in my stable. It is my 65# Jeffery which outshoots any of my bows by at least 8 fps ((fast flite string). Owen knew what he was doing.
As I get older, I realize there is not just one bow to hunt with. Yes I prefer border, but there is a lot of magic in so many bows. The TT are beautiful. I will add one to my collection.
I too love my Border bows....for all the reasons the other fans state. I realize carbon is somewhat fragile-I did make a mistake which caused failure of an Adcock ACS-CX limb in the field. Not to minimize that.
But, I challenge some of the folks contention that you need to carry an extra set of CH limbs in your pack. Oh, yeah? Are you the kind of bowhunter that carries his entire system in his pack deep into the wilderness? All the time? I did that several times in 40 years of bowhunting too.....but most of the time I was hunting within a few hours of my base camp or my truck. Even back in the days of the 5 lam Hill style bow(ok, ASL to a lot of guys), my longbow did double duty as a hiking stick, pry bar, etc.....and I still carried an extra string and kept a spare bow back in the truck. It ain't many that go deep and stay long...so don't kid the rest of us.
I agree with the others: if I had to stay alive with only one bow, it would be the bomb-proof basic longbow. But, I've done all that and I'm over 70 now....and I don't push myself or my system like I used to. Yes, I hunt pretty hard and hike way farther than many my age do, and I understand the value of strength and versatility. But, in about 8 years of hunting many western seasons with them I have not seen the level of risk that many seem to associate with the bows. Two top custom bowyers have told me about carbon deteriorating in a matter of hundreds or a few thousand shots. Oh yeah, well, I have thousands of shots out of many carbon-limbed bows and not an indication of a failure. I'm no fool, but until I do see a problem, I'm not running like Chicken Little!
Shoot what you want. Tall Tines certainly are beautiful and apparently top performers, as are many others. I sure wouldn't mind trying one out. Can't buy all of them though, so probably won't happen!
Shotkizer: No offense taken but I like yourself consider myself a friend of the Ball family (where I used to be anything but) and my response was just me doing my best to keep things real based on what I see from my end of the backyard which I'm going to do again now over...
"...Speed is not the only thing. The top tier bows are within 5 fps of each other. Ironically, my goto Border is not the fastest bow in my stable. It is my 65# Jeffery which outshoots any of my bows by at least 8 fps ((fast flite string). Owen knew what he was doing."
because while I full well know there are some exceptional preforming bows out there?....I just have to ask if all your other bows were shooting the same GPP at the same DW as your Jeffery cause no matter what the DW?...I haven't seen a bow yet that can come anywhere close too the performance of a Borders Super Recurve let alone out preform it by 8fps.
You sound like too nice of a person for me to say anything like I'm calling BS but I will say that somehow?...
you are well beyond grossly mistaken.
non-typical: I could agree with you when shooting 10gpp and less (especially with the lighter DW versions) but nock-up 12gpp or more?...and it won't leave all that energy behind in those bog hooks but what it will do is shoot those 12gpp arrows as fast as most others shoot 9gpp arrows.
Jinkster, the draw weight on my Border is 56#. But it should smoke any other 65# bow. The Jeffery is 8 fps faster With the D97 string. I chronoed 212 fps on a 400 grain arrow. It was also outperforming it by the same amount on a 450 grain arrow. I really have nothing to prove. The only thing I can say is to put a fast flite string on an old Jeffery and see for yourself. That said, I prefer my Border. The Jeffery has too much hand shock and stack.
No sense in getting worked up on what someone else chooses to shoot. If I were to try one of these crazy hooked bows, it would be the Morrison Max 5. Supposedly faster than the Border limbs, made in the USA, and much less expensive.
Shotkizer: 6.1 gpp out of your Jeffreys? Not doubting you, but I guess I don't know what any of the bows I've owned would do with an arrow that light. I'm pretty sure they'd have been a lot faster than I gave them credit for!
I'm with Jinkster here. I never shoot less than 10.0 gpp out of my bows and I use 11-12.5 gpp and FOC in the high teens out of the CHs. Not to disrespect anyone else's choices, but that is mine. I also use a chrono to compare bows, but my goal is to send an arrow like that at a speed of 180 minimum, when shot with my fingers. It's a substantial hunting arrow with a flat enough trajectory for my distances. I even get that with my 41# CH limbs- more with more draw weight.
I'm sure there are folks who think these numbers are not impressive. Big claims have distorted our judgement regarding FPS, IMO. We all claim that so many things are more important than speed(AND THEY ARE!!), but speed would be the easiest comparison of a bow's measurable performance.....if it were not dependent on so many variables, and widely misrepresented by so many. (not meant to be a shot at you, SK, as I have never tried anything close to the test you report.)
I haven't shot a TT or a Border but I'm interested in the Border for the same reason many are: greater speed and performance per # of draw weight. I also like them b/c they are reminiscent of ancient bows. Even though they are the cutting edge of modern bow technology, they look very much like the hugely curved horn bows that the Huns used to conquer most of Asia and much of Europe with. They were used as artillery and could reach up to 900 yards to shower arrows down on an enemy position without any risk to the archers. Just as fiberglass/wood limbs are a modern version of more primitive bows backed with sinew, rawhide or baleen, Border limbs and those similar to them are a modern version of primitive horn bows. In design, anyway.
I do have two Whippenstick Phoenix bows and their hooks are about as big as once can get with wood, glass and veneers. Brad says the TT limbs are similar, and from the looks of them in pics so are Wapiti limbs. Whippensticks aren't made anymore but if you can find a used one (good luck) it's an alternative. You could probably go down in weight 10#s without any loss of performance or speed.
I did not mean this to be about my Jeffery. Border is the top bow in my arsenal. You can argue with me till your blue in the face. I don't give a damn. Get your own Jeffery, put a D97 on it, and find out for self. I chronoed it over a year ago and will try to paste the results.
No doubt there is a performance difference between the TT and a Border. The question of whether it is worth 2X+ or more can only be answered by the individual .
It's really not scientific. I was really wondering how my Jeffery would perform with a 14 strand D97. My draw length is 29 inches. I shot a 480 grain arrow ( I think) and one that was over 400 grains. I did it just for the hell of it. The Border was shooting the 480 grain arrow 191 fps. My Jeffery was so hooting the same arrow 204 fps. I will try to post results. It really shocked me. 15 years ago, I had the Jeffery shooting around 190 fps with an aluminum arrow and Dacron string. I'm not trying to prove a point, just letting folks know that some of these old bows can really smoke an arrow with the right string. I also agree with George Stout that you can put fast flite on older bows.
Here is the speed Border Hex 6 bb2s with the same arrow. My point is that +/- 5 fps means nothing when you are shooting close to 200 fps. When you are in that tier with a hunting bow, smoothness, forgiveness, quietness, and grip are so much more important.
The point I'm making is there is no such thing as the ultimate bow. The TT will shoot a 500 grain arrow a little shy of 200 fps. Yes, in the top tier bows, you are looking at only 5 fps difference. So go with what you like. I just happen to prefer my Black Douglas with Hex 6 bb2s. I like the feel, grip, and authority it slings an arrow. I also love my Palmers. There are a lot of great bowers out there. Why limit yourself.
This is the same 38# Covert Hunter shooting 575gr/15.1gpp arrows...at just under 170fps...let me repeat...575gr arrows...15.1gpp....38# bow....just under 170fps...
"...it would be the Morrison Max 5. Supposedly faster than the Border limbs..."
Glad to see you were smart enough to use that word "Supposedly" because the Max5's are quite literally Hex7 profile limbs with the added mass of fiberglass so they are not even as fast as Borders earliest big hook limbs let alone faster and that's comparing the Max5's too the Hex7's that came out 4 years ago in 2014...Borders has since upped their own game twice since by releasing the Hex7.5's in 2016 (which were blessed with upgraded foam core material in 2017) and now Borders has released their new for 2018 Hex8's which are doing amazingly well.
So you have done the testing then? Sorry, but you sound a little bit like a commercial to me, and not really willing to consider that someone might make a choice other than the Border limbs. I haven't done then testing, but if the Max5 limbs were 5 fps slower(which hasn't been shown to my knowledge), I would still opt for them based on the price and to buy from a bowyer in the USA. And I probably won't buy the MAX5 limbs either.
For Hex7's?...Yes...For the Max5's?...No...but Brandon has and posted the results on FB and Borders acquired a set of Max5's only to discover their profile is "Line-On-Line" with Borders Hex7 design as though they both came off the same forms which Borders posted a video of on FB and were somewhere's between "Not Happy" and "Flattered" LOL!
"...but you sound a little bit like a commercial to me, ..."
What a coincidence!...."Faster Than Borders"?..."Made In The USA"?..."Less Expensive"?...."but if the Max5 limbs were 5 fps slower(which hasn't been shown to my knowledge), I would still opt for them based on the price and to buy from a bowyer in the USA."?....
I was thinking the same of you! LOL!
and as far as your claim of me being....
"not really willing to consider that someone might make a choice other than the Border limbs"
I couldn't give a flip what others choose to spend their money on...it's their money....but when someone who admittedly hasn't done any testing at all makes bogus claims based on their limited knowledge that a slower limb is faster when it isn't?...(such as you have done)...it gets my attention...especially when I happen to own and love those faster limbs.
Once again, you claim they are faster without having done the testing, while at least said supposedly and based that on claims by the bowyer at Morrison.
Everything seems to get your attention, because doing an internet search seems you jump at every opportunity in this, and other forums, to defend Border limbs, usually in an obnoxious fashion, with your pal Sid also chiming in from time to time.
As I said before, I don't plan on buying either of them because I can still very comfortably generate more momentum and KE with my bows than you can, and by the time I need to step down, there will likely be something faster and less expensive than what you have.
While Jinks is quite partial to Border, he isnt wrong. I have owned Borders Hex 6, 7, and 7.5 limbs as well as Morrison Max 4 and Max 5 and done some chrono testing with all of them.
Border makes without question the fastest limb out there. With the 7.5's I was getting 195-200fps shooting 9.9GPP shooting Long limbs on a 19" riser with a 29" draw. With the Morrison Max 5's shooting Longs on a 17" riser I was getting 185fps with 9.8GPP. Granted, I think the Medium Max 5's would be better suited for my draw they still wont keep up with Borders Hex 7.5, let alone the 8's. I would compare them to the Hex 7's in feel and performance. I havent compared the profile to the Borders Hex 7 but it doesnt surprise me that its similar to the 7's. With that said, any claims of the limb being a copy of Borders design I would not agree with. The Max limbs shoot, feel, and overall construction are completely different. While the profile may be similar, or even the same, the limbs are in no way a ripoff of the Hex 7's. I like the guys at Border and think they make some of the best products out there. But they had to expect other bowyers to come out with similar super recurve designs as this type of limb begins to gain popularity. Bowyers have been doing this for a long time. Someone comes out with an idea and others follow their lead. Many forward handle R/D longbows look almost identical and you dont hear any accusations being thrown around about someone stealing their design. Saying the Max limbs are a ripoff of the Hex limbs are like saying a Tall Tines is a ripoff of a Schafer. While they may look similar when put side by side they are very different. Border is the leader in super recurve design and should be proud of that.
With that said, speed isnt everything. The Hex 7.5 is by far the fasted limb I own but I am partial to the Morrison limbs for several reasons. First is durability. The Morrison's are built to be durable first. They seem to be a much sturdier limb from the way they are built to the finish the use. While the Border limb is a very thin wide limb with a much thinner finish that is much more prone to scratching and gouging. Morrison is also far less picky about draw length requirements and string materials which gives me the sense that they are confident in the limbs holding up to abuse. I have not heard of any limb failures so far but we'll see if any pop up as time goes on. Secondly, I have noticed that the Morrison Max limbs are far easier to tune than the Borders in my personal experience and behave a little more like a conventional limb. Now this is not an apples to apples comparison as my Covert Hunter is a bolt down and the Max limbs are ILF so I dont have the adjustability for tiller. Sid tillers his bows positive so this might be whats causing me issues as I generally struggle to tune bows with positive tiller when I shoot 3 under. I need to buy some ILF Hex 7.5's to make it a fair comparison. Third reason I prefer the Morrison is more of a personal thing but I am not really a fan of the initial preload in the draw of the 7.5's. The back end while easy to hold feels soft and just does not work as well for me. I prefer the 7's over the 7.5's as far as draw feel. In the end, both companies make a great product so whatever you decide im sure youll be happy.
Shotkizer,
I dont think anyone is surpised that a much heavier bow shooting a very light arrow is faster than that same arrow shot on a lighter draw weight bow. Not to mention the fact that you are shooting Hex 6BB2's and not Hex 7,7.5, or 8's which is really what this discussion is about. The jump in performance between those limbs is substantial. While I dont doubt your Jeffrey is a performer, if we are going to compare a bows performance to another we need to try to keep things like GPP, Draweight, etc the same otherwise the data is meaningless. I will however agree with you that there are alot of great high performance bows out there so there is not a wrong answer here. Shoot the bow that you can hit your target with.
I'm shooting Hex 7.5 s too. They do not outshoot my Hex 6s by 13 to 14 fps. My Jeffery does with a 500 grain arrow. I repeatedly have posted that Border is my goto bow. It's just not my fastest bow. I treasure my relationship with the BALL family. I have two of their bows. But I am not going to make up shit and say they produce the fastest bow.
Well, I would hope they don't close it. The thing we have in common is we want to hear what others who seek performance(whatever that means!) have found about top reputation bows. Most of these are beautiful, made by people with abilities worthy of our respect, and backed with fine customer service. Bows like these cost a lot of money, and it's natural to ask the opinions of others with first hand experience.
My own belief is that most bows built with similar technology and materials are not all that different. If you are going to laminate a bow of wood and glass, it will likely perform within a relatively close range of most all laminated bows of wood, glass, and similar construction. Some are better performers than others, but not by a whole bunch. That's not to say there isn't a world of difference in the bowyers' art, and personal preference.
Whereas, carbon, foam, hi performance string materials, etc all open some new performance territory for bowyers who want to go there.
Tall Tines, Border, Palmer, Morrison, many others at the top of the heap....but not the same. It's good campfire fodder.
I will apologize for being terse, especially since I have no skin in the game, and I am happy enough with what I shoot. I have got several PM's from people that have done the testing and confirm that the 7.5's outperform the max 5's, and most say the 7.0 do slightly as well. It still wouldn't change my decision making process, but it certainly may for others.
Since the subject of durability and Border has been mentioned several times, I will chime in with my experiences. A couple years back I bought two sets of ILF Hex-6's and a set of Hex-6's for my Bear TD also. Over the next year I had a total of 5 limb failures on those three sets of limbs. [28" draw, 9gpp, 45-51lb weight range)
To be fair on this, Border had exceptional customer service and took care of all at no expense to me and yes the limbs were faster than any other limbs I have.
very nice, I was traveling through the palouse in WA heading to WAZU with my wife and son. In 1 hour going on 26E I saw pheasent, turky, mule and whitail, Elk. All I could think about was sept
