This fella seems like a nice enough type guy. However, this video is posted on a public site for viewing by anyone, and on the site it is open to public comments, so I don't feel odd posting it and asking a question.
Watch the shot at about 5:30 into the video. The gentleman says a little later talking about the shot and says he "reviewed it on the viewfinder and it shows a good shot."
Hard quartering angle, but his shot placement for it was pretty good.
He got pretty good penetration (both lungs / high-back of entry side lung through low-front of exit side lung), but the exit side leg movement pushed the arrow back out when the deer bolted, which made it "look like" he didn't get good penetration.
I've killed a bunch of deer, and pigs shot at that same angle, and they were almost all down real quick.
Definitely not where you would like to hit but there's an artery running right below the spine and if you hit that you're golden. I've hit a couple deer there on accident and caught the artery and the deer didn't go 20 yards
Not the optimal shot, but the 50 yard recovery tells the story.
Because of the shooters elevated position and the sharp quartering away angle of the deer, the arrow appeared to enter a little high, at the very back of the rib cage, traveling forward and down, probably through both lungs, and exited near the off side shoulder. Because of it's angle of entry, it likely missed any gut and resulted in a quick, clean, humane kill.
What's not to like? Not the scenario one dreams about, but given the angles, he put the arrow just where itneeded to be. Had it been too much further forward, it might have only been a single lung hit and a long tracking job. Any lower and you would have probably hit the gut on the way down and still only got one lung.
I slowed the video down and watched the impact angles several times.
If that had been my shot, I would have probably said "ah crap! This is gonna test my tracking abilities...gonna be a long night."
I think the shot based on the angles is too far back. The arrow appears to impact on the upper hip, and looking at the angle the deer is standing upon impact, I would only pray I got some liver. It appears to me that penetration was poor as well. I never see the shaft penetrate much further than it shows upon impact. I don't see what appears to be a lighted nock ever penetrate any deeper, then push back out by the leg movement. If you notice also, when the gentleman draws and shoots, the bowstring coming off the lower limb appears to be pushing pretty hard against his jacket/belly where he is sitting down, which surely didn't help anything. I just found it somewhat amusing the gentleman says he reviewed the footage and made a "good shot". I believe that is a very poor shot. I think he was very fortunate to recover that deer so quickly. JMHO.
Given the arrow travel, pretty much a liver hit, maybe part of the offside lung as well, as ny observed. Lethal, but I would have wanted to place the arrow farther forward. Not a big target to hit though.
Deer was pretty alert and dropped a little at the shot. Might have considered passing on that shot. Of course, then there's no video.
Seems to have taken him a long time to find the critter. Not much of a blood trail?
I tried real hard to pick it apart on my phone and couldn’t see anything better than what looked to me like a high entry just ahead of the ham, so I was thinking maybe if he was lucky he might have beaned a kidney... :p
But since Rick saw it 1/16 the speed I did and has probably killed more than 16 times as many deer as I have, I not going to disagree with him!
I haven’t watched past the deer running off yet, but JMO, the shot placement was probably as good as he could have hoped for, given how jumpy the deer looked. Is it just me, or are they twitchier when they know something’s not quite right but they haven’t localized it yet?
Penetration did not look good, but the arrow tells that tale, right? If it looks like 8” but you’ve got 20” of blood on the shaft, it’s a good bet that something happened that you missed. When in doubt, check the dipstick!
Maybe Rick saw this at 1/16, but I got the sense that the deer was moving when the arrow arrived, so at that point, it almost doesn’t really matter how good a shot it was at the release.... anticipating whether they’ll jump and minimizing the chances are just that important, unless you’re comfortable with the same odds of a clean kill that you get from a lottery ticket.... I saw an Elk Hunting video where a bull came in-glued at the shot from about 70-odd yards out, had wheeled around and was laying on coal when the arrow caught him at the base of the skull. High fives all around....
Congratulations - you missed by 8 feet!! Morons....
It does make me wonder, though... I know that many here are proponents of holding a bit low in case the deer drops under the shot, but do you think they’re already in the process of breaking away from the sound? Maybe more so when their ears are angled toward you and they have a better fix on where the sound came from?
It didn't look too great at first but the proof is in the pudding. In my experience a lot of times it ain't where the arrow goes in, it's where it comes out and the path it took. That is a really likeable old fella- and a good Christian person. I'm going to watch all their videos.
A few years back I had a friend of mine hunting with Me here at the farm. When we climbed down he said he shot a doe, but hit her really bad because his bottom limb hit the stand. We went over to where he shot- blood everywhere! 40 yards later, dead doe. That was one of the the shortest, heaviest blood trails I've ever followed. He had shot that doe right in the booty. I mean, if you were going to give this deer an injection, that's where he hit, about three inches west of her rectum hole. The arrow didn't even go in broadhead deep!!!! No blood on the shaft whatsoever. It flew in, cut the femoral artery, hit the pelvis and bounced out. It was the craziest thing ever. You never can tell what's going to happen once you turn the string loose.
Its called hunting not easy Very rarely do ya get a perfect hollywood shot The fact that he recovered the animal and she didnt suffer is a win win Little far back for my liken,,,it worked out but i would have been thinkn it was a bad hit from the stand and would have had to restrain myself from wanting to run after her to quick I definitely woulda been sweet'n it till i recovered her He obviously thought he could make a clean shot at that raking angle and he did I might have waited on that one personally
I would have thought that shot would have called for a back out and wait till later to track her, but he said he shot her at 4:00 and waited until dark to take up the track. I didn't look for a date/time stamp so it could have been anywhere from 2 to 4 hrs before he started to track. That might be why the 50 yd. recovery instead of a lot longer distance. He did not push her out of the first place she laid down. He must have just set quietly and waited.
Am I missing something here. Yeah the shot killed the deer. From what I saw was "very poor" penetration, there was ALOT of that arrow hanging out after the hit. Yeah he may have gotten the Transverse Artery that runs under the spine (which will kill them quickly) and "maybe" part of the Liver, but it would have barely gotten to the lungs if at all from what I looked at. I think it was mostly luck on his part not something I would want put on video and show the world. If I did I would be saying how lucky I was, because it wasn't the greatest of shots. DANNY
Shot is back about 5"s farther then you want. No way both lungs, most likely liver and an artery. Maybe back of one lung but the shot got diaphragm as well. I would say, not great but not terrible. She was a bit nervous and about to get out of dodge so it did not help. Sorry but whoever said both lungs is nuts! Shawn
During the recovery the gentleman pulled the head out at the shoulder. The deer fell on the entry side, and the arrow was broke. I would bet the farm the deer falling pushed that arrow to that point, even at a different angle, when it fell on the arrow. The bow and impact didn't send the arrow that deep. The gentleman said he was blessed, and I agree. Blessed with good eating, and blessed to find that deer.
"Sorry but whoever said both lungs is nuts! Shawn"
With all due respect, you might want to brush up your deer anatomy.
From the elevated shooting position he was in, there is no way an arrow can travel from where it entered right under the spine and right behind the rib cage (you can see this when he sticks his finger in the entrance hole) and have it come out at the off side shoulder (which is where he said it came out) and NOT hit both lungs on the way through.
I've made that exact shot twice before and the results were the same. A dead deer within 50 yards and a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow.
I made the same shot also just this past season. I was posting it on here as it was unfolding doing a Hunt-a-Long. Directly after the shot I posted that I thought I had hit it too far back but I thought I heard the deer crash. I gave it over an hour then found the deer in about 100 yards. I have shot deer through the heart more than once and some ran 100 yards. As I said earlier it only appeared to be too far back because of the angle. Good shot. Quick kill. How do you argue that? I will only add one more thing. This site needs a Shawn filter.
When I first started bowhunting, an old timer told me not to aim for where I wanted the arrow to enter, but to aim for where I wanted the arrow to exit. If I did that, the arrow will enter where it needs to.
This aint 3D folks. I like quartering away shots. He may not wanted it that far left but he probably got liver and busted the diaphragm along with lungs. Busted diaphragm bad news and usually a short trail.
“The truth is that it's an excellent shot and a new spot for you guys to pick.”
Devil’s Advocate sez....
IF I could shoot as well as Rick does (range is a big factor, but I’m a poor judge of distance on video).... AND if I could get the kinds of speeds he gets AND the level of penetration that he gets from his high-poundage set-ups... AND if I had done it as many times as he has...
Well, that’s One Thing....
The diagram that KPC posted shows how that can be a really lethal placement. When all goes according to Hoyle.
What it DOESNT show is how unforgiving that placement is if you look at a parallel path a few inches to either side.
Closer to mid-line, you’re likely to have to plow through a lot more heavy muscle and quite possibly some massive bone, as you get into the backstraps, spine, pelvis, etc. A spine hit CAN drop a deer in its tracks, but that far back it gets a lot less likely as major nerves keep peeling off of the spinal cord as you get farther from the brain; once you get into the lumbar region, that part of the spinal cord is known as the cauda equina (horse tail). Good visual.
And don’t forget that somewhere in there is a bag-type target stuffed with sodden grass or mast or something equally unhelpful. Just one more reason to keep things ahead of the diaphragm as much as possible.
Alternatively, a few inches wide and outside and you get closer to single-lung territory.
And that’s assuming a path that runs parallel to that shown in KPCs pic. If the deer presents closer to broadside, it’s all good (as long as you adjust your point of aim properly); but on a quartering away presentation (if I were a betting man) I’d put my money on the idea that any response to the sound of the shot would cause the deer to pivot away from me and into a less forgiving angle.
Although I’m not sure I’d recommend trying to work out the lead on an animal that hasn’t started moving yet.
I suppose if you’re good enough to be able to read the animal’s weight distribution, you might do better than average, but it seems likely to me that if you waited for that near-side foreleg to move forward and take some weight, any “dropping” at the shot would roll the front end of the deer away from the shooter.
So back to OCR... Quartering away (45°), yes. But the angle KPC drew has used up all of the margin for error that makes quartering away a good bet.
Yup, I'm w/ Rick and KPC, pretty much my shot on my buck this year out of a tripod, 16 yds, dropped w/in earshot (75yds or so). I also thought a little back, but took out both lungs, so not much to debate!
I agree with the more experienced hunters on here. This hunter made a good shot. It baffles me why some would even try to argue that he didn't. My thoughts would be. He didn't draw on the deer when it was broad side. Because he thought the deer might see him when he drew his bow back. Obviously this bow hunter had good shot placement. Anytime I have had this similar shot opportunity. The results were the same. Dead deer. Meat in the freezer. Tender loins in my belly. ;-) Also we are watching a video. Not actually seeing what the hunter sees through his eyes.
any time you have a short tracking job resulting in recovery you can't complain but so much. going through the liver and the left lung makes for a dead deer, too far forward at that angle could result in hitting or clipping the right lung only, and a wounded unrecoverable animal. the shot was good.
It's hard for me to tell what's what from watching videos a lot of the time, but I would have thought it was a little too far back and it didn't look to me like he got a lot of penetration, but obviously I'm wrong on this one. I've made hits that I swore were good, that left a lot to be desired and hits that didn't look as good that resulted in a dead deer at a hundred yards. I've come to the conclusion that unless they go down in sight, It's best to give them all some time. Even on the ones I'm pretty sure I hear go down.
Angle was pretty steep but the advantage of quatering away shots..the margin for error decreases as the kill zone gets wider. You can take out guts and or liver and still penetrate lungs. Broadside hit like that and you're in for a long night.
If I have to be within 6" of the hip I would rather have a flat broadside, plus I really only need about 1/3 of my arrow to penetrate to take both lungs on a broadside so the only advantage I see for quartering is they have passed me and are less likely to see me move.
Less likely to see you draw is correct and an excellent advantage but the vitals are a much larger target when presented at an angle. I would take a quartering away shot if offered every time. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with flat broadside but I believe a quartering away shot is a much better opportunity.
I will take them every time as well, until the angle is so great that I'm closing in on the hip and/or have to traverse the gut/liver. IMO, once the quarte away is that steep it carries more disadvantages than advantages and this shot appeared to be about the max quartering I would want.
"I'm not at all in agreement with Mr. Kummings diagram. From watching that video over and over I'd say the arrow is about 4 inches farther back than his illustration."
"Looks to me like that entrance is just ahead of the ham, not just behind the rib."
Everyone is entitled to their opinion however if you look at a still of the video, the hunter has his fingers stuck in the entrance wound. At the end of the red arrow, you can see the rise of the rib cage. My example might be an inch or two off either way (its pretty tough finding an illustration to match perfectly, especially when your comparing a large buck and small doe) but the end result of the shot is the same. I'd still bet that arrow took out both lungs.
We should also not forget that live deer are not 3D targets. They are seldom in the exact same position when an arrow impacts that they were when the arrow was released.
In this particular case, look at the position of the deer when the hunter released the arrow (or as close as I could get going frame by frame). This was the frame just prior to the frame where the arrow appeared in flight.
In my opinion, this is about as good as it's going to get in terms of shot selection. Head down, slightly quartering away, what's NOT to like about that? That is textbook shot selection.
However, unlike 3D targets, live deer have a mind of their own and it is quite obvious that this one decided to pivot left and a little forward when the arrow was released. The result at impact is also obvious.
Had the deer stayed put, the arrow would have impacted center mass of the ribcage, right where I'm sure the hunter was looking.
Great shot selection and great shot...that's all the hunter can control.
That arrow went in to the feathers and was jerked back out in the first couple steps the deer took. That must have really torn things up. Shot didn't appear to be great hit. The deer moved. 50 yard recovery says good shot. The hunter did all he could do. Congrats to hunter on successful outcome.
"Would I take a shot like that, especially considering how close it was? Absolutely." - Rick
"Close" is what is hard to determine from video. The picture is flat and depth perception limited to clarity of image.
I too thought that shooting a little sooner would be better, but then, the deer's footing might have allowed a deeper drop at the sound of the release. Shooting, between the hips and behind the shoulder hump, with a forward angle, is a dead deer, as in my photo. I've heard many hunters on Leatherwall insist on broadside or nothing, to each his own.
Glad he got lucky and harvested the animal instead of losing it.Bad shot choice. No matter how good of a shot you think you are there is always the unknown result to be factored in.When trying to thread an arrow into a very small area like that even with a compound its asking for trouble in my unbiased unproffesional opinion that is.
"When trying to thread an arrow into a very small area like that..."/b>
Head down, quartering away. What BETTER shot opportunity is there on a deer? Granted, I've only been bow hunting deer for 40 years, but if there is a better one, I'd sure like someone to tell me what it is. I know I'd pic that one over broadside every day of the week.
If I could put an advance order in on a shot opportunity for every single deer that I will ever shoot again, that is the EXACT one I'd pick.
The problem is the deer never really quit moving, he committed to that shot, that angle but, the angle increased due to the deer moving, and she moved foreword as well. It's hunting and stuff happens, he got lucky and could have just as easily ended up without that deer and that deer having a broken hip.
It's hunting and stuff happens, I'm not knocking the guy, he did the right thing after the shot and recovered the deer.
"It's hunting and stuff happens, he got lucky and could have just as easily ended up without that deer and that deer having a broken hip.
Same is true for any shot on any live animal.
None of them stand completely still forever, and no matter how good we think we are, or how much we think we are in control, we are never in control of when they decide to drop, pivot, take a step or any one of a thousand other things they might, and often do, between the time a hunter drops the string and the arrow arrives.
Was this a bad shot opportunity too? Deer standing still, head down feeding, leg forward, almost broadside, good shot, total miss.
Like it or not, live animals act differently that 3D targets. It is part of the game.
"I've made hits that I swore were good, that left a lot to be desired and hits that didn't look as good that resulted in a dead deer at a hundred yards. "
Shot more than 2, have you? LOL....
That's gotta be like what my buddy said they'd told him in his Motorcycle rider's ed class - there are only 2 kinds of riders - those who HAVE gone down... and those who WILL. Even with rifles, and even as picky as I am about shots, there have been those deer that have gone MUCH farther than I ever would have imagined possible... and I can only think of one where the animal's movement might have been a factor. With arrows moving at 1/10th or 1/20th of the speed and the animals' ability to move at the sound of the shot and be Somewhere Else when the arrow arrives.....
I have to agree with KPC that the image he has posted here is a REALLY favorable angle, though as TradMt just said (and as is suggested by KPC's pic) the animal looks like it's not done moving - that near hind leg looks like it is just about going to come off of he ground. Personally, I don't think I would have been able to notice that real-time, and to be honest, the last time I allowed myself to notice what a deer's hind-foot was doing just before I released... I damn near shot that deer right in that same (moving) hoof.
This deer moved and steepened the angle considerably... and the shot still came out good... although I wouldn't want to have to follow up a hit that got any steeper than that. Not saying that such a hit could not possibly come out just fine, it's just not anything that I'd willingly risk.
After reviewing KPC's photos, now it appears to me that the doe pivoted into the lethal shot. Otherwise, it might have been a high miss or worse, a gut shot. Glad that things turned out as they did, though.
Your deer ducked the arrow, do you think your video in and his are the same?
The deer never did stop moving, he probably thought it was going to, it didn't. Like I said, I'm not knocking him, it's hunting and stuff happens even when we have the best intentions but he shot when he probably shouldn't have. Glad he recovered the deer.
That arrow looks to be much further forward than the one in the deer and exits about the same place. That's not the degree of hard quartering I'm talking about, obviously anyone who has seen the insides of a deer more than once would agree that a shot like on that pig is great.
"Your deer ducked the arrow, do you think your video and his are the same?"
Nope. My video was just an example of what a deer can do...EVEN when the shot scenario is virtually perfect.
In the OP's video, the deer reacted to the shot by pivoting to the left and moving forward. This movement resulted in a much more acute quartering angle and an impact that was farther back than originally intended. Had the deer not moved, that arrow would have impacted center mass in the ribcage.
In the video I posted, the deer reacted to the shot by dropping and pivoting to the right. This movement resulted in a complete miss. Had the deer not moved, the arrow would have impacted center mass in the ribcage.
Neither shot was bad, neither scenario was bad, the deer just had different plans.
He was standing slightly left to right facing, almost straight away. Actually quartering away much more than the deer in this video.
As it turned out, it worked out great, because it took out his nervous system instantly.
That said, even though I only missed the spot I was shooting at by no more than an inch right placing it forward by close to 6 inches, I would have preferred the shot to be a farther back where I intended it to be.
If you take the pre-release still photo and mark a good aiming point with intersecting lines from constant points (red circles) that don't move, the top photo shows a good aiming point. This is actually a little too far forward for my liking but let's not get too picky.
Using the post impact photo and using the same constants (red circles) the lines still intersect very close to where the arrow impacted.
Not perfectly, but we will never know just how far the deer moved from the precise time of impact.
What this illustrates is that the original aiming point was a good one, the arrow actually went very close to that point, but the deer moved before it got there.
Good spot, good shot, short blood trail, dead deer, fried back straps.
“That said, even though I only missed the spot I was shooting at by no more than an inch right placing it forward by close to 6 inches”
That’s the part that gives me pause...
If you take someone who is basically a competent shooter but nowhere near the same league as Rick (like maybe Me, for instance), and you outfit him with a bow of quite considerably lower power output (like one of mine, no doubt whatsoever) and what happens if the shot lands TWO inches to the right or left of where it was supposed to go?
So that’s why that angle (on the hog) is a little more than I’m up for and more than I would recommend for anyone who might be inclined to ask.....
That angle on the hog is what I try to get everybody to take regardless of draw weight. From what I can tell from the picture. It gets behind the shield if there is one, and there is nothing up that way but important parts.
Guys are funny, that shot that is supossedly too far forward is actually about perfect. The shoulders are there for a reason, they protect a good portion of the lungs. Its like guys shooting a rabbit right behind the shoulder and wondering why they gut shot them!! LOL!! Happens all the times, it is because a rabbit vitals are almost up in its neck anything behind the shoulder gets some guts. When I shot a lot of weight 80-90#s I shoulder shot most of my broadside deer, good penetration, dead deer within 100 yards every time. Sorry but that shot did not get both lungs. Oh and for the record I still like a little back high in low out double lung shots, which this definitely was not. As I said before liver, through diaphragm and one lung and most likely some gut as well. Shawn
And I’ve got a question. In that diagram approximately how many inches from impact point “D” to heavy bone or hip? Also, on a broadside shot, how many inches from TBS to shoulder? I ask cause I’m not sure but I feel like the margin for error is greater on the broadside shot.
Still atrocious, all the diagrams ya want that did get plenty of vitals, never said that it did not only that there is no way in hell that go both lungs, not a chance in hell. Reminds me of the 180' buck that was posted that even showed a score sheet which proved nothing, same as all the diagrams in the world. Don't need an open mind to see that just have had to kill and gut a bunch of deer. Yup, the shot clean house all right and got liver for sure , maybe even a kidney which will kill them quick but double lung!! BWAHHHHHAAHAAHAAHAAA!!! Sorry but you guys are a joke!!! Shawn
The first deer I ever shot (rifle) was a full-profile broadside, and I wrecked both shoulders in convincing fashion.
Not finding a lot to agree with in Shawn’s last few posts, but I would agree that shoulders do shield the main works on a broadside. After wrecking 2 shoulders, I decided to look for shots at more of an angle, and with a scope, especially, I have a Dirt Simple trick, which is to place the lower vertical crosshair so that it splits the difference between the forelegs.
Because if the projectile’s path runs from ahead of a shoulder on one side to behind the shoulder on the opposite side, you really can’t fail to hit a lot of really important stuff. At least not so long as you stay below the spine.
Ronnie - a full broadside IS the most forgiving target, because the lungs form more of an oval than a sphere; they present the widest possible target at 90 degrees (broadside) and the smallest when viewed end-on.
On the other hand, the depth of penetration to reach the far side of the animal is greatest from end-on and shortest on a broadside. If you envision the Vitals as a box 9” wide and 12” long, the broadside penetration is 9”, but going corner to corner is 15”... so provided you get full depth, the corner-to-corner angle wound channel will do 2/3 more damage than the broadside; any other angle will give you more damage than a broadside but less than corner-to-corner.
And one more FWIW.... if the arrow pierces the diaphragm on one side of the mid-line and crosses the plane, you’ll get the double lung; it cannot be otherwise on any angle away from the shooter. If the entry is farther forward, you’ll still get both lungs up to the point where you only get the front of one side.
But at that rate, you’d just about have to have the entry ahead of the shoulder.
"And I’ve got a question. In that diagram approximately how many inches from impact point “D” to heavy bone or hip? Also, on a broadside shot, how many inches from TBS to shoulder? I ask cause I’m not sure but I feel like the margin for error is greater on the broadside shot."
This isn't perfect but it will give you a pretty good idea of the major bone structures from any angle. Just stop the video wherever you wish.
Damn ladys,,,,,he kilt the deer He didn't hesitate,drew,hit anchor,released and followed threw he seemed confident on his actions Recovered the animal with a clean kill,ya can analyze it all ya want but he got it done ethically Seems to me the man knew his limitations he didnt have a doubt,,congrats enjoy some venison and in to the next shot
"Still atrocious, all the diagrams ya want that did get plenty of vitals, never said that it did not only that there is no way in hell that go both lungs, not a chance in hell. Reminds me of the 180' buck that was posted that even showed a score sheet which proved nothing, same as all the diagrams in the world. Don't need an open mind to see that just have had to kill and gut a bunch of deer. Yup, the shot clean house all right and got liver for sure , maybe even a kidney which will kill them quick but double lung!! BWAHHHHHAAHAAHAAHAAA!!! Sorry but you guys are a joke!!! Shawn"
"Well Hell. The cat's out of the bag. Ya here that fellers. We're all jokes.
Damn. I'm crushed. 8^)"
Not sure how Shawn thinks both lungs couldn't be hit? The arrow is angling right through them."
" Well Elderly....it's because it's Shawn."
"I will only add one more thing. This site needs a Shawn filter."
Arrow don't fly then animal isn't going to die now is it. When you have arrowed enough animals you don't need to talk about others shots this or that. You would know just what it takes to constantly take animals or birds or anything else with an arrow.
Don't see any benefit showing or talking about things like this because we weren't there and we only see whats shown and was it really like that or we just have speculations?
You have to know the anatomy of an animal when they stand and present the shot then make the decision to take it because you have faith you can make it. This is a game of inchs as well as a mental game that has many variables to add to it.