I know that a heavier arrow in general has better penetration but can you go to heavy? Is there a law of diminishing return as far as penetration is concerned ??
Of course there is always a point of diminishing returns. You have to decide where it is for you...it's not a number, or set of numbers that's written in a book
Yes. I tried shooting a telephone pole from a 55# recurve. Upon release, the bow and I were launched ten feet backwards! Thank goodness it wasn't a super recurve.
I will give you a number. I like to be between 9 and 11 gpp of draw weight. On the heavy side, if I felt I needed it, I would go 12 or 13 gpp. 14 or 15 may be max. I will call 16 gpp the point of diminishing returns. Bow design, distance you want to shoot, and many other factors to consider. All this info is opinion based.
Rick's point is relevant. The problem is, we can show videos all day and some will still fall back on what their friend's cousin's uncle said because he killed a lot of deer. Well, okay then. Ron LaClair spoke here once about a person getting complete penetration on a bison with I believe an arrow in the neighborhood of 380 grains or so, maybe he will chime in.
Lots of people tell you things that they heard, but few have done any kind of real world testing to show what works. Also, one person's light is another person's heavy, depending on what they are shooting...and there is plenty of in-between that gets completely ignored. Again because their friend's cousin's uncle told it differently. It reminds me of the ones who will tell you fast flight will blow up a bow unless the tips are built up heavily with micarta, etc. I shoot it every day on a 1966 bow that has no overlays. So maybe each person should actually try something themselves, rather than believe the misinformation that is all about us.
Penetrating water is a big deal and light arrows ain't gonna cut it. Due to that fact, fish arrows are 25 gpp and heavier.
However fish arrow weight is too heavy for normal shooting out at ten to twenty yards. I shoot arrows in the 14 gpp range and heavier all the time and have no problem with that. 1500 grain arrows are too heavy for a #55 bow, at normal range. Been there and done that in testing.
That said normal arrow weight in the 8-12 gpp range has been killing critters from the gitgo of bow and arrow. I just happen to like heavy arrows because I have been shooting them since 2004. Anyone shooting out at 30 yards is gonna be better off with a flatter trajectory.
The 10 gpp rule of thumb is just the defacto arrow to bow weight ratio of most wood arrows back in the day. A cedar arrow with a 125-135 grain point just happened to come out to about 10 gpp for most shooters. Still does. And, history shows that it works.
I 've been shooting arrows on the heavy side of that for a long time -- 11-12 gpp-- but have been rethinking that lately. Going to a heavier weight set up reduces arrow speed, and speed is also a factor in penetration as well as accuracy.
Nowadays, with carbon arrows that one can front load for greater penetration, overall physical weight may not be as important on moderate size game like deer. Anyway, I'll likely be shooting arrows closer to 10 gpp this season.
Agreed that there are diminishing returns as one goes heavier. After 60 years of shooting sticks, i still don't know exactly where that point is, but i think it's lighter than I though it was. :>)
An arrow is too heavy when the trajectory is too high to allow you to get the elevation right at the distances that you want to be able to shoot. Doesn’t matter how deep you penetrate the stuff that you never intended to hit.
I like the velocities that I get at about 8-9 GPP; even if I could get a shade more penetration by going heavier, I wouldn’t choose penetration over precision.
I have some 750 gr laminated birch that I shoot from a 50 lb longbow. OK at 20 yards but drop a lot further out. I'm liking 600 - 650 nowadays for anything up to elk. Got some tapered DF from Surewood a few days ago that are really looking like the way to go.
The old timers knew,cause they had to test and tune themselves to get what worked There wasnt an interweb Best way to find out what works,,,,buy it build it tune it shoot it
Theres archers opinions i trust because i know they did the leg work They talk it,,,but they walk it In that same realm I consider that trusted info as a good place to start my own testing Knowledge is power
Yes but it won't go very far. :^) Heavy means different things to different people and different bow weights. The 10 grain rule puts you in the ballpark for everything. For very heavy bows you can go a little less if you like more speed and still have a heavy arrow. For lightweight bows you can go a little heavier to get penetration and just shorten your range a tad.This for thin skinned game. Thick skin or dangerous, heavy heavy is the rule. Heavy bow heavy arrow. >>>>-----> Ken
I like heavy arrows, 725 and up. I got a hold of some IPE shafts. 1100 grs+ with a 145 point. They flew fine until they slapped a 3d target instead of hitting dead on, then they broke. so for me, 900 is max, anything heavier didn't work very well.
Rick's video confirmed my experience and opinion...10 gpp max. People have gone off the rails with heavy arrows and the fixation on momentum...you can't have worthwhile momentum without good initial velocity.
george the guy shooting 380 grain arrow at a buffalo should have his head examined. i blew up larry jones's brackenbury by putting fast flite string on it. i saw a beautiful bud hitt blow to pieces by doing the same thing fast flite string. (real world experience.) so i don't know what bow your shooting but i think thats not the best advice
When I was a kid (about 50 years ago)I saw a picture of a bucket of sand that had been full penetration by a 45# recurve. It was a 3 blade Bodkin. That image sticks in my mind. Wet or dry it was still a steel bucket with an arrow through it. Impressed the heck out of me. Got to remember in those days we didn’t have GPP and bare shaft tuning or Dr. what’s his name.
My philosophy has always been to find the quietest (for your bow), heaviest arrow you can shoot accurately, with the priority being QUIETEST, because without a quiet arrow the other two are moot.
Heavy is also important for hunting because it's penetration that does the killing, assuming that you have a razor sharp arrow and you can PUT THE ARROW WHERE IT NEEDS TO GO.
Fortunately for me, heavy arrows have always been quiet so one takes care of the other. The rest is up to me.
I believe that depends on the distance being shot! There's a video or article I can't remember which that Dr. Asby did on a tribe in New Guinea that shot arrows that weighed weights that hard to imagine but they shot them from danger close distances, the bows were virtually silent because of the weight of the arrow, the FOC was so high, the arrows didn't even need fletching to fly straight.
So How heavy is heavy without going overboard. I will take a stab at it. 40# = 450 to 500 45# = 500 to 550 50# =600 to 700 That will work out to around 11 to 14 grains per pound of bow weight. Above 50 pounds of bow weight you are on your own but it probably doesn't matter anyway.Shoot straight. >>>---->? Ken
Old timers didn’t have much choice. They didn’t have superior knowledge but mostly shot what was available or what the guy that killed the most deer used.
We have much better gear and info now than ever. Light works and heavy works but 9gpp is the best compromise for me. Lower weight bows (45 or less) I would use 10+ gpp and heavier (65+) I would use 8-9gpp.
You can always take the spear chucker's approach, not too light not too heavy but just right. The Spears pretty much got a match the guy (or the bow) that's throwing it.
The math being done on the Wall lately is amazing Dont get me wrong,,,,nothing,,ah,,wrong with it I just think there should be more shooting and less computing
When i raced enduro series and hare-scramblers full time i was faster on my 200cc then i was on my 250cc,,56hp compared to 72hp Now i know it was the chassi not the horse power but thats where the math ended A good friend and AAPro used to always say,,"Put the pencil down and twist the freakn throttle,just ride"!
I think we can get better info by loose'n arrows over analyzing them
I for one, love putting things to the test, but I'm not that great at math.
That's why I own a calculator, AND I "shoot things" too.
Anyways . . . 8^) I'll stick with my arrows between 9 & 10 gpp
The bottom line is - If you want (or think you need) more horsepower for penetration - Go up in draw weight, and maintain your arrow gpp between 9 & 10 with that heavier draw weight.
I agree, There are compounds out there shooting 400 grain arrows and packing 80 pounds of KE. However, I do like to use as heavy an arrow as my bow Will shoot efficiently.
There is somewhat of a tradeoff between trajectory and penetration. You have to decide where you want to put the balance. I remember shooting a 3-D round in Georgia with Monty Browning back in the mid-1990's. At that time, Monty was using solid fiberglass shafts (bowfishing shaft) with a total arrow weight of about 1400 grains shot from a longbow of about 80# pull weight. I swear I probably could have thrown an arrow shaft faster than they were coming out of Monty's bow but they sure packed a whallop when they hit the target! Monty had to lob arrows at 20 yards due to the slow trajectory but didn't care too much as he only took short range shots when hunting. Even though his trajectory left a lot to be desired he shot accurately.
Some of you might remember the test "One Sharp Broadhead" posted here about 6 years ago. He proved the same thing with ballistic gel that lighter and faster out preformed slow and heavy.
One apparently often over looked fact is, many bows are just not built to shoot heavy arrows. For contrast a Hoyt TD4 type design on the arrow low weight end and a Hill style on the heavy end. I hunted with TD4s for years and learned to love light arrows. I'm on a heavy arrow kick know with a long limbed recurve and a selfbow.
I'm not someone who would actually conduct a test on diminishing returns. I just know what I like.
I've been shooting arrows in the 9-10gr/lb range forever. I have seen the same arc from a whole lot of bows with varying draw weights for over thirty years. That imaginary flight path is really ingrained into my head.
I tried bumping my arrow weight up to 12gr/lb last year for my annual hog hunt. It just didn't work. In spite of perfect flight I just couldn't get used to the new trajectory. I could eventually get my arrows to the mark during a practice session, but then I'd have to start all over the next day. You don't get a dozen practice shots when hunting.
Rather than potentially missing low, I abandoned my experiment and went back to my regular set up. You really can't teach an old dog new tricks.
To answer the original question with a more matter of fact point on it:
Yes - an arrow can be to heavy, and they start getting to heavy (yielding "noticeable/measurable" diminishing returns) once they start getting over 10 GPP.
They also start yielding "noticeable/measurable" diminishing returns once you start getting below 9 GPP.
9 - 10 GPP is the best all around arrow for your bow. It gives the "best" penetration, yet still has a very good trajectory.
I have some 2219s cut to 30in with 145gn points. These arrows weigh 600gns. They are the heaviest arrows I own, and I shoot them with a 69@29 Howatt Hunter. They fly perfect and hit very hard. This makes an 8.6 gpp arrow and I find it hard to believe that it’s too light.
Rick, I agree 100% about Fred Bear. I do know of one case where he was flexible on his 10GPP rule:
"According to Fred Bear's "Bowhunting Diary" he hunted elephant in the 60s with a 75 pound draw Bear made recurve bow and a "twist" string. His arrow was a large diameter aluminum shaft with a fiberglass arrow blank fitted inside for additional weight"
Mpdh, with the horsepower you are getting from that 69# DHH, and a 600gr arrow, it is nowhere near to light.
It's a heavy arrow, and it is smoking on down the road, BUT it would/will get better penetration if it were a 621 to 690 grain arrow. I guarantee it.
My 98#er (Martin also by the way) shoots a 600 grain arrow 247 fps, but a 971 grain arrow going quite a bit slower gets much better penetration, and still has very good trajectory.
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Folks can scoff at the plastic barrel tests all they want to. I know what the results are.
I have noticed the only ones scoffing are the ones to chicken to give it a go. 8^)
hi rick dave in new mexico i'm wondering if all chrono are created equal. i have a 90 lbs set of jim belcher limbs [i shoot them with a limb clicker so no cheating] best i can get is 197fps with a 680 gr arrow my 1000 gr dangerous game 165 fps. i thought the air was thinner here in new mexico i did the barrel test also only black barrel pretty thick plastic. i don't know if its thinner or thicker than blue barrel. 875 gr arrow 23and3/4 inches 720 gr - 23 and 1/2 inches 475 gr -21 and 3/4 inches 90 lbs bow with grizzly broadheads
I actually wanted to shoot lighter arrows, because of the speeds I could get, so I spent many years (a dozen or more) trying to prove Fred Bear wrong about it.
In all that time, I could not prove him wrong. I've shot into many different types of target mediums over & over with the same results, but these plastic drums have given me the most definitive proof of the differences.
I failed. He's right. I give. My arrows will be between 9 & 10 gpp from now on for all my hunting bows.
Thanks for the info,opinion and thought to share you research with us all
Ive said it before the men that talk the talk and walk the walk are getting rarer everyday,,,and knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss
Youve obviously put the time in,to get the facts I for one will add these tests and results to my archery research and factor them in when doing my own test,tune and set ups
I've been a heavy arrow guy since I started in trad shooting about 10 years ago. I started listening to podcasts a few weeks ago and I found it interesting that the 3 traditional archers I know of who have completed the Grand Slam ( Eichler, Duggan, and Andersohn) not one of them shoots an arrow over 530 grains. Making me rethink how I have been doing things.
I had a bow that would only shoot ten grains per pound arrows only about 150 per second, trying the Monty Browning thing. Too slow says I, so I went to a 6.1 grains per pound arrow. That arrow flew through three does that year with yards of extra penetration. 9 to 12 gpp is only relevant to a particular poundage range.
I used to shoot about 5 or 6 hours every Saturday with a guy I met here. He shot a 40lb BW with 2016s. They penetrated our bag targets almost as well as my heavier bows and arrows. He wanted to try my 32" 2219s one day. Out of each 5 arrow group 1 or 2 of his arrows bounced back out. He shot 5 groups with the same result. Now I'm sure they weren't flying perfect but flew well enough no wobbling was visible. And I know bag targets are not game but usually if pens better on one thing it's better on every tbing.
I only went to 2219s because i was bending 2413s too often out of the 73lb bow i shot back then. I prefer 8 or 9 gpp instead of the 10 i get now but I'm too cheap to buy all new arrows since I dropped to 60lbs.
That fish arrow thing has been thrown around forever. Wood arrows float, the others are hollow tubes filled with air so also have great buoyancy so yes fish arrow go threw water better and the weight pulls out line better initially. But ive tried it at 20 yards out of the same fishing bow their penetration sucks. In real shallow water wood arrows blow thru carp better.
“Speed x mass is the formula for the energy of. Impact.. Period..”
No...
Mass X Velocity is the formula for Momentum.
1/2 Mass X Velocity squared is the formula for Kinetic Energy
And both KE and Momentum increase as arrow mass increases, because Efficiency.
So why penetration doesn’t necessarily improve with a heavier arrow, I can’t explain. Probably has something to do with friction and the fact that arrows flex on impact just as they do at launch, and who knows what else.
It’d be interesting to watch the impacts with some high-speed photography and and see what’s going on there....
I shoot about 65 to 71 pounds on the average, and use wood up to 550 gr. Including everything, and I use dangerous game arrows , thin and heavy, I think those arrows are 15 gr. per inch, so with insets and tip or broad head I'm around 750.. The heavier the better.. I Chrono my dangerous games at 184 fps, the lighter ones aren't much faster.. Maybe 188. But you got to do things your way, every one else's way us there business, , you can bring home the bacon with anything you use, just use it well.
"t’d be interesting to watch the impacts with some high-speed photography and and see what’s going on there...." It may be odd, but at my less than 27" draw I have never once had penetration problems on white tail deer. Back when the college kid used the school sports camera for a school project, I can tell you that when a wood arrow, that is still 'S' curving, hits a firm deer target, in slow motion, it looks like it could easily break. When I backed up to over 18 yards the bending effect at impact was much less.
no doubt in my mind rick,you have it figured out exactly as mr bear did also, and i will make certain i am shooting 9 t0 10 gpp at all large game also,great video and great test thank you for your time sir Tom
Heavy arrows out pen light arrows of the same speed. Trouble is a heavy arrow will never go the same speed out of any given bow. That why there's a point of diminishing returns, which for me is somewhere around 9 or 10 gpp.
[[[ GLF Said: "Heavy arrows out pen light arrows of the same speed. Trouble is a heavy arrow will never go the same speed out of any given bow. That why there's a point of diminishing returns, which for me is somewhere around 9 or 10 gpp." ]]]
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You're welcome Tommy, and thanks. I enjoy doing this stuff.
Yep. Old Fred Bear got it right a long time ago. 8^)
I stand corrected. I did my researched after I made that false statement and saw the returned posts. Apparently War bows normally arrows shot less 8 GPP. I guess all I know is that my short limbed ILF TD4 bows won't shoot 10+ GPP arrows in the 180s like my 64" Morrison Cheyenne and 66" Brackenbury Shadow.
I shoot heavy arrows and settled on bows from 65 to 72 pounds, I found the my 84 pound and 90 pound longbows, one is an Anderson, and one is a hill, only gained 7 and 10 fps respectively(above a 72) So climbing up in draw weight, on longbows, I found the most bang for the buck 71 or 72 pound draw.. That gets me at about 185 fps on a heavy arrow.all of my bows now are between 65 and 70 pounds. And they all shoot heavy arrows over185 fps, and straight hit hard.. The lighter arrows,my woods and aluminums are st 625 groups, and my heavy are at 735..
Oh and a side note, a B 55 string and a high tech string didn't make but all piddle of difference, maybe 3 of 5fps difference out of 185.I like'm both.
Really like your test Rick. That last set up rocks. I would trade a little penetration for a little quieter. I Like what Woods Walker said. Interesting F Bear seems to have over done it when after the Elephant.
Now to find a blue barrel. But im gonna turn it sideways to take out more variables. :)
Turning the barrel sideways will only reduce variables if you are more consistent with elevation than with windage.
It's a curved surface, so the farther you get from 100% perfectly dead center, the more plastic you're trying to shoot through and the greater the potential for the arrow to glance off the plastic because it is striking at an angle.
Run a strip of tape down the side of the barrel, top to bottom, and see if you hit it more often with the barrel upright or on its side. I'm going to bet that you'll do better with the barrel standing up...
If a 450 grain arrow shot from a 45 pound bow will shoot through an Iowa whitetail, a 450 grains arrow will also shoot through an Iowa whitetail if shot from a 55 pound bow.
"If a 450 grain arrow shot from a 45 pound bow will shoot through an Iowa whitetail, a 450 grains arrow will also shoot through an Iowa whitetail if shot from a 55 pound bow."
Well, OF COURSE it will, because it's still 8.2 GPP....
But if you shoot that deer with a 500 grain arrow out of a #100 bow, it'll bounce right off, because it's only 5GPP...
My all time favorite cliche came from a public land hog that shot crawl out of an ILF with 850 grain arrows, while we we carting out my wife's deer. It was a good sized one and thankfully a couple of compound shooters that borrow my cart and trailer when they get deer were available to field dress and cart her deer out for her. One of the cp boys told him about the double lung pass through, he said to my wife, "I don't get pass throughs and you don't either." In his mind he had a 30" draw, in reality he had a 24" draw and terrible arrow flight. A heavy arrow will work, but if form falls to crap when shooting down out of tree stand and if those arrows are not flying straight, it is not a package that is suitable for hunting.
